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booty_fiend
10-08-2015, 04:46 AM
when the first humans were black? is this a historical inaccuracy?

HDinHB
10-08-2015, 05:23 AM
Because that's the way TWCB made them. Adam and Eve weren't human, they were human/First Civ hybrids.

D.I.D.
10-08-2015, 05:34 AM
Everything about the First Civ history flies in the face of geology, archaeology and evolution. Adam and Eve aren't shown to be the first humans, just the first to escape. We have no idea what their real names were, or if the Assassins are just ascribing "Adam" and "Eve" to them as a reference to the Judeo-Christian myth.

The only major scene of what the First Civ cities looked like was in the visions at the end of ACIII. Were there non-white people there? I can't remember.

LoyalACFan
10-08-2015, 07:17 AM
When you're claiming that there were gigantic metropolises of skyscrapers on Earth hundreds of thousands of years ago populated by fully evolved H.omo sapiens which we've never found any archaeological evidence for, skin color is pretty ****ing low on the list of historical inaccuracies.

Please do not bypass the auto-censor - thanks

Anykeyer
10-08-2015, 07:54 AM
Because jews were white. One day they wrote a fairy tale about their supposed ancestors (you know, most cultures did the same thing). And naturally they imagined them as white people.
Oh, you were asking about AC... Well, similar reason. Evolution theory has nothing to do with this.

Jackdaw951
10-08-2015, 12:41 PM
We tend to create fictional characters in our own image. If the authors were black, perhaps the results would have been different.

Yeah, Adam and Eve have exactly zero to do with longstanding scientific theories about our origins.

SixKeys
10-08-2015, 01:02 PM
Everything about the First Civ history flies in the face of geology, archaeology and evolution. Adam and Eve aren't shown to be the first humans, just the first to escape. We have no idea what their real names were, or if the Assassins are just ascribing "Adam" and "Eve" to them as a reference to the Judeo-Christian myth.

In the AC2 video the woman says: "Adam, I have it!" So it's safe to assume those are their real names.

I actually always thought Eve looked Asian, so I assumed that's what they were meant to be, ethnically.

D.I.D.
10-08-2015, 01:04 PM
Ah, fair point, thank you!

Aphex_Tim
10-08-2015, 02:18 PM
Everything about the First Civ history flies in the face of geology, archaeology and evolution.


When you're claiming that there were gigantic metropolises of skyscrapers on Earth hundreds of thousands of years ago populated by fully evolved H.omo sapiens which we've never found any archaeological evidence for, skin color is pretty ****ing low on the list of historical inaccuracies.

This.

It always baffles me how skin colour (and gender, for that matter) always seems to be such a huge issue for some people while often ignoring context or circumstances.
There's an incredibly advanced species living and building on this planet who basically created humans before disappearing without a trace, flying in the face of everything we know about our history. No problem. But the first humans were WHITE? Preposterous.

cawatrooper9
10-08-2015, 02:28 PM
I mean, why are so many "other" biblical figures white in western Christian folklore?

Locopells
10-08-2015, 05:39 PM
Well, that's an easy one. For whatever reason, (ideological, political, etc) people back then tended to depict such figures as looking like themselves (and some still do). You really want a good religious art historian to put the details on it, but that's the basic reason.

cawatrooper9
10-08-2015, 05:49 PM
Well, that's an easy one. For whatever reason, (ideological, political, etc) people back then tended to depict such figures as looking like themselves (and some still do). You really want a good religious art historian to put the details on it, but that's the basic reason.

Exactly, and I feel that, despite social, intellectual, and political advancements since then, we still have that mentality a bit and it's reflected in entertainment (Assassins Creed included). Why else would Arno have a British accent in English speaking copies of the game (much like how Romans inexplicably so often have similarly British speech patterns in film)?

VestigialLlama4
10-08-2015, 07:39 PM
(much like how Romans inexplicably so often have similarly British speech patterns in film)?

Well Romans having British accents in American movies had a logic to it. The old producers thought the Roman Empire as being ancient and "classy" so they cast Shakespearean and English actors to represent and carry that authority. In Biblical movies like Ten Commandments you often had Americans playing Jews or other oppressed with British playing Romans as a kind of remnant and recasting of the American Revolutionary War. In Spartacus British thespians play Romans while Americans (Kirk Douglas, Tony Curtis) play the revolting slaves, the one exception is Jean Simmons who is English but she's the hero's girlfriend. The only time an American star played an Ancient Roman was Marlon Brando as Mark Anthony in Julius Caear. There's also Elizabeth Taylor as Cleopatra but then she's not Roman.

Jesus Christ was either American (Jeffrey Hunter in King of Kings aka, "teenage Jesus") or Swedish (Max von Sydow in Greatest Story Ever Told), but never English, or for that matter Jewish since that's who he was. There's actually never been a Jewish actor playing Jesus, not even once in film history. Not even in Martin Scorsese's subversive Last Temptation of Christ (the one with Judas as a good guy) where Willem Dafoe plays Jesus and looks and talks like a surfer dude


Why else would Arno have a British accent in English speaking copies of the game

Old hollywood movies using English accents is still way more logical than what UNITY did. Because there you are making an artistic choice of locution to separate good guys and bad guys and using a co-relative that audiences can relate to. In UNITY, having them speak in English rather than accented French is reasonable, but for some reason they still wanted you to think it was the past, so they basically used fake BBC English. Ideally they should have done it like Philip Shahbaz in AC1, where Altair speaks in clear contemporary accent, or they could use American accents.

You know I got to see THE WALK, its a movie about a French highwire performer, who in the 70s walked across the roofs of the former Twin Towers in New York. So Joseph Gordon-Levitt plays the guy, and he affects a French accent (a very good one) as does most of the cast and it sounds...pretty good. The characters, the dialogues and emotions the intermixed French and English works very well and the audience I saw it with liked it.

So in retrospect, ubisoft's stupid accent choices can't really be justified on any level. In fact I think it came from Unity being a cheapskate game. Basically after making two New World games (AC3, Black Flag), they didn't want to pay money for a voice cast who could do French and English and balance it nor did they want to write dialogue that mixed both well. So they basically contrived an approach where they could still use the English and accents of the Kenway games in a non-Kenway setting, And now with Syndicate, they go to England for real, further staying in the same orbit. It's basic laziness more than anything.

cawatrooper9
10-08-2015, 07:52 PM
Well Romans having British accents in American movies had a logic to it. The old producers thought the Roman Empire as being ancient and "classy" so they cast Shakespearean and English actors to represent and carry that authority. In Biblical movies like Ten Commandments you often had Americans playing Jews or other oppressed with British playing Romans as a kind of remnant and recasting of the American Revolutionary War.


Sure, and like I said, those were social constructs of the times that they were made (and still, as evident by recent movies) apparently relevant today).


Old hollywood movies using English accents is still way more logical than what UNITY did. Because there you are making an artistic choice of locution to separate good guys and bad guys and using a co-relative that audiences can relate to. In UNITY, having them speak in English rather than accented French is reasonable, but for some reason they still wanted you to think it was the past, so they basically used fake BBC English. Ideally they should have done it like Philip Shahbaz in AC1, where Altair speaks in clear contemporary accent, or they could use American accents.



I mean, it's tough (impossible, really) to qualify which is more "logical". While I'd agree that Unity's English accents were silly, unnecessary, and at best misleading, I think they were done very much for a similar purpose.

VestigialLlama4
10-08-2015, 08:28 PM
I mean, it's tough (impossible, really) to qualify which is more "logical". While I'd agree that Unity's English accents were silly, unnecessary, and at best misleading, I think they were done very much for a similar purpose.

There's always an element, and it will always there, of hypocrisy because obviously English is the global language but at the same time it's not a language that can easily accomodate or envelop other cultures, places, events. Ideally you should do another culture in that language, it should be say Paul Schrader making his film about japanese writer Yukio Mishima with Japanese actors speaking Japanese (adding a voiceover with a narrator in English), or Steven Soderbergh making a movie about Che Guevara entirely in Spanish. The other option is The Last Emperor and Kundun, films about China and Tibet, with an international cast of Chinese-Americans, Chinese actresses, Japanese actors and actresses, Tibetan actors and non-professionals, all speaking English. These are all very good movies made by exceptional directors so obviously there is no one way or approach.

I think AC1, you have Altair voiced by Philip Shahbaz in an American accent with Arabic names and words pronounced correctly (Shahbaz is Arab-American) but he's the only one with that accent, the others are voiced with Arabic, Turkish and European accents. So Altair is the one guy who stand out most and so easy for us to identify with. The Crusaders have a mix of French, German and English accents, and I must say the French-accented English in AC1 (Richard Lionheart, Garnier and Robert) sounds better than Unity. AC2's have Italianate accents partly because, thanks to Scorsese and Coppola movies, people associate Italian culture with the language and how it sounds to a great degree. And Desilets modelled the characters and story on Ettore Scola comedies. So there you had a conscious element of exoticism in the approach.

Ultimately, the only thing that can truly cover for accents, good and bad, is if the story and characters are good. In UNITY, the accents are jarring because it becomes a symptom of the shallow and weak immersion of the setting. It's Paris is no different from Disney's Hunchback of Notre Dame and as such it's not really Paris. So if the material was good, as it was in AC1 and AC2, then the accents would not be a problem. I am quite sure that people would have made fun of French accents even if Unity was released to the public in the manner it was, but instead it becomes one other point to complain about.

I-Like-Pie45
10-08-2015, 08:47 PM
it makes no sense for romans to be speaking with any sort of accents really because there is no logical base for assumptions as to how a bunch of dead latin speakers sounded

cawatrooper9
10-08-2015, 08:51 PM
I think AC1, you have Altair voiced by Philip Shahbaz in an American accent with Arabic names and words pronounced correctly (Shahbaz is Arab-American) but he's the only one with that accent, the others are voiced with Arabic, Turkish and European accents. So Altair is the one guy who stand out most and so easy for us to identify with. The Crusaders have a mix of French, German and English accents, and I must say the French-accented English in AC1 (Richard Lionheart, Garnier and Robert) sounds better than Unity.

In UNITY, the accents are jarring because it becomes a symptom of the shallow and weak immersion of the setting. It's Paris is no different from Disney's Hunchback of Notre Dame and as such it's not really Paris.
Ah, but remember, only the main cast of Unity spoke in English accents. NPCs in the city otherwise actually spoke French.
I actually read an article once that claimed Unity was TOO French, because NPCs couldn't be understood (an opinion that seems to clash with the majority, including myself and apparently you as well).
I do think that accents were handled well in AC1-ACIII, as well as in ACIV (I have no feeling either way for Rogue.


So if the material was good, as it was in AC1 and AC2, then the accents would not be a problem. I am quite sure that people would have made fun of French accents even if Unity was released to the public in the manner it was...
Perhaps... ACII is generally considered by many to be the pinnacle of the series (though I'd disagree), yet people make fun of Ezio's accent rather regularly. They can appreciate the character, but still poke fun at Roger Craig Smith's attempt at an Italian accent (even though it was pretty decent).


...but instead it becomes one other point to complain about.
I've said it before, but it's a shame that this is the state of modern gaming. There's nothing wrong with being critical, but gamers these days can be so grumpy and entitled.

VestigialLlama4
10-08-2015, 09:23 PM
Ah, but remember, only the main cast of Unity spoke in English accents. NPCs in the city otherwise actually spoke French.
I actually read an article once that claimed Unity was TOO French, because NPCs couldn't be understood (an opinion that seems to clash with the majority, including myself and apparently you as well).

Well mostly because the main characters (Assassins Templars De Sade, Napoleon) all speak in this posh affected fake-BBC, like its based on a production of Scarlet Pimpernel or Tale of Two Cities. Having the NPCs be French and the main character not speak or understand the language only reduces the immersion, its like you are not playing a Frenchman in a French city, you are just a British tourist coming to Paris to make fun of foreigners in the best english tradition.

The weird part is Napoleon. The real Napoleon spoke French with a thick Corsican (i.e Italian-Neapolitan) accent. It was a huge part of his identity, as a student in France he was subject to racist mockery for it. The side mission with Josephine has her remarking on Napoleon's exotic accent, which doesn't sound any different from hers or any other character. It's truly absurd failure of imagination there. Ideally it would have been amazing to get Roger Craig Smith to voice Napoleon, not because the accent is correct but he would be equivalent in dynamics to that setting and you know having Napoleon with Ezio's voice would give a hint about this guy is so charismatic and charming. Similar to Kevin Conroy voicing a serial killer in the Arkham games.


I do think that accents were handled well in AC1-ACIII, as well as in ACIV (I have no feeling either way for Rogue.

Some people have issues with Shay's Irish accent apparently. It did sound steretypical and his name Shay Patrick Cormac is pretty bald as far as Irish names go, he could even be Captain Ireland with a name like that, likewise he's obsessed with making his own luck, bringing in the whole Leprechaun connection. All that's left is the Irish jig and the alcoholism.


Perhaps... ACII is generally considered by many to be the pinnacle of the series (though I'd disagree), yet people make fun of Ezio's accent rather regularly. They can appreciate the character, but still poke fun at Roger Craig Smith's attempt at an Italian accent (even though it was pretty decent).

The point is that the scenes in AC-2 that matter, the Bonfire speech, and other dramatic scenes are taken seriously and still cited as badass so the accent doesn't get in the way of the dramatic moments and key scenes. That's what counts. In UNITY, even key dialogues and scenes are ruined with Bellec calling Arno, ''P-sspot" and basically being Blackbeard in Paris. Arno's final monologue is too polished and stuffy, it sounds like an Oxford student reading his valedictory rather than something earned and organic. Even simple stuff like when De Sade asks Arno about some comment on bestiality, Arno says, "There's no force in heaven that will make me answer that question". Okay, be a stiff British prude.


I've said it before, but it's a shame that this is the state of modern gaming. There's nothing wrong with being critical, but gamers these days can be so grumpy and entitled.

They were always grumpy and entitled, there was a point where they weren't that. Complaining about any game that tries to make them aware of other cultures, places and beings.

SixKeys
10-08-2015, 11:04 PM
The simplest explanation seems to be that these games are huge in North America and the marketing is focused to make them appealing to North American audiences. Americans can pinpoint exactly which state an actor is from by their accent, so to hear what could sound like their relative from a neighbouring state breaks their immersion. They don't have that accuracy with non-American accents, including British English. The average American can't tell the difference between a Londonian accent vs. Manchester, it's all just "British" and therefore exotic. (Hell, most people still claim Altaïr's accent in ACR was more "accurate" even though he sounded no more Syrian than Philip Shahbaz. :rolleyes:) So Americans get British English to convey a sense of foreign-ness and many other countries have the game dubbed into their own language.

Farlander1991
10-09-2015, 12:39 AM
When it comes to AC3 and 4, the original versions kind of have it 'easy', in a sense that there's no language adaptation/translation going on there. What you see is what you get. When people speak Spanish, they speak Spanish, when they speak English, they speak English in a Spanish accent cause that's a foreign language for them. Everything's straightforward. A Welsh accent is a Welsh accent, a north english accent is a north english accent, etc. etc. because that's the original language.

The other games are facing the problem what translations of AC3/4 face. Like, in Russian version, all English becomes Russian. They all speak English in the universe, but it's Russian in the game. How do you transform all those different English accents from different areas in Russian? You don't, because there's no Welsh accent in Russian, there's no British accent, etc. So it's just Russian.

Now, in AC2, for example, Roger Craig Smith himself said that Ezio doesn't speak in Italian accent, that it's a mix. Roger Craig Smith also happens to be one of the few actors in the game who sounds genuinely great. After replaying AC2 and ACB recently, I can say that half of the voice actors would be much better if they didn't have to worry with those accents that in the end sound very tiresome for the ear.

Which also brings another question: if you speak in your own language, why voice it with an accent like you're speaking a foreign language? There is no right answer to that question, there are merits to both approaches.

But, you know, AC3 and AC4 has got some amazing voice acting. And one of the biggest reasons is that it can be what it's supposed to be. While in AC1, AC2, ACB, ACR, most of the main cast is usually good, but the rest varies greatly, cause everybody has to speak in foreign accents. And I honestly prefer the Unity way where a translation from another language doesn't have a foreign accent. Cause they're speaking their language normally (or relatively normally at least). Now, Unity kinda ****ed up a bit in a sense that Napoleon had to speak with a thick accent (because he spoke with an accent in French and didn't speak it cleanly, therefore he mustn't have spoken English clearly in a translation), but I agree with the general idea.

Altair spoke with an American accent in AC1, and honestly I never had a problem with that.

Locopells
10-09-2015, 12:48 AM
there's no Welsh accent in Russian

You should hear Sean Connery speak Russian (and yes, I know he's Scottish)...

Farlander1991
10-09-2015, 12:56 AM
You should hear Sean Connery speak Russian (and yes, I know he's Scottish)...

Well, there's not much difference between different regions of English speaking Russian. Including Connery. At least I haven't heard what would be really different. And maybe if they do sound different, to a Russian ear they all sound like an English person trying to speak Russian, not somebody speaking in their own native language.

Locopells
10-09-2015, 01:06 AM
No, trust me - SC sounds blatantly Scottish, even when doing Russian. Watch The Hunt for Red October, and compare him to all the rest - you don't have to be Russian to pick it up.

Anywhoo, I'm derailing here...

JamesFaith007
10-09-2015, 01:40 AM
No, trust me - SC sounds blatantly Scottish, even when doing Russian. Watch The Hunt for Red October, and compare him to all the rest - you don't have to be Russian to pick it up.


I'm not sure, but wasn't Connery's different accent in Hunt for Red October on purpose because contrary to rest of crew he wasn't Russian, but Lithuanian?

mhg87
10-09-2015, 03:52 AM
it makes no sense for romans to be speaking with any sort of accents really because there is no logical base for assumptions as to how a bunch of dead latin speakers sounded

Luckily historians have been able to replicate how ancient romans talked!

Video is NSFW

**REMOVED**

VestigialLlama4
10-09-2015, 09:59 AM
The simplest explanation seems to be that these games are huge in North America and the marketing is focused to make them appealing to North American audiences...The average American can't tell the difference between a Londonian accent vs. Manchester, it's all just "British" and therefore exotic. (Hell, most people still claim Altaïr's accent in ACR was more "accurate" even though he sounded no more Syrian than Philip Shahbaz. :rolleyes:)

Well when UNITY came out Americans found the British accents out of place in Paris. Conan O'Brien made fun of it, "I live in France, but I 'ave a British accent." I think Americans would have preferred the Charles Boyer/Maurice Chevalier approach. That is to say they want the characters to sound "italian...french...arabic". The Ezio games is closer to that approach, because it sounds Eye-Talian or Italianate. Consider the recent movie The Walk where Hollywood star Joseph Gordon-Levitt Frenches it up, and still acts convincingly and the dialogue still works beautifully. Hollywood and American media audiences are shaped by that, they like that exoticism. And that can be a good and a bad thing.


Americans can pinpoint exactly which state an actor is from by their accent, so to hear what could sound like their relative from a neighbouring state breaks their immersion.

That was actually a problem with Martin Scorsese's The Last Temptation of Christ, he used New York, New Jersey and Midwest accents for Jesus and his Apostles. So many people were appalled that Jesus' apostles sound like gangsters from his early films. Later Passion of the Christ came and Mel Gibson used Aramaic and people bought it as if it was some serious thing. The joke is that Mel Gibson's movie is not any more accurate. Aramaic is a dead language, pronunciations lost to time so the characters are basically just guessing how the words they speak are meant to pronounce. They might as well be speaking Lord of the Rings languages. The New Testament was written in Athenian Greek (the English of the Ancient World, targeting a wide audience so as to "Spread the Word"), so there's no question of it being true to the source material as well.

So objectively Scorsese's approach is not different from Gibson. In some respects Scorsese is more authentic because it's more honest and not trying to fool people that it's authentic which Gibson's movie insisted that it was. I think it's more the case that accents not be governed by faulty logic rather than anything. It should fit the style. UNITY is essentially a brain-dead adventure with zero history, so if they had full American accents, you would at least make it clear that this isn't remotely accurate historically that it's not meant to be authentic. Whereas the English accents creates that false notion of seriousness. The AC2 games are essentially about the exotic appeal of Italian history and the Renaissance.

But ultimately there's no one approach. If the story, characters and dialogue of Unity was truly good, this accent issue wouldn't have been a problem.

VestigialLlama4
10-09-2015, 10:41 AM
While in AC1, AC2, ACB, ACR, most of the main cast is usually good, but the rest varies greatly, cause everybody has to speak in foreign accents. And I honestly prefer the Unity way where a translation from another language doesn't have a foreign accent.

I am not sure that comparison is fair at all. For one thing UNITY has a very small supporting cast, the three most developed characters are Arno, Elise and Pierre Bellec. Alongside them you can add Mirabeau, De Sade and Napoleon. So there's no sense of like to like. I mean compare Mario to Mirabeau, Richard Lionheart/Lorenzo/Caterina/Washington/Suleiman to Napoleon, Malik/Machiavelli to Bellec and Altair/Ezio/Connor to Arno. The supporting cast in AC1-Black Flag is bigger than Unity's individually. The only exception is Revelation where it's a much smaller cast than the games that preceded it. So if you say that there's a variation in level of accents in supporting casts in those games, it's also purely because they have far more characters and more stuff for them to do than Unity does.

But you know accents aren't just about how they sound to the audience. The choice of accents aside from how they sound, determines the dialogue.

In many cases Unity's dialogue is off-key and defeats the drama of the setting and the scenes. Like at one point Arno and Elise talk about Germain's plan creating chaos and Arno says, "it'll be Bedlam" that's a British expression for "It'll be chaos" (referring to the London mental hospital which we will visit in Syndicate). It's so specifically English that it takes you out of the fame, and reminds you that they aren't French at all. In the AC2 games, Ezio and Antionio use actual Italian slang, like before they attack Palazzo della Seta they say, "In bocca al lupo" (also the title of the final mission) which is an Italian idiom for "let's do this". There's a sense that you are with these guys, and part of their world. And in a way that's what the accents main function is. More than simple authenticity. It should be a way for you to connect to that open world. That you are Italian in an Italian open world and you should be French in a French open world. In Unity you don't get that at all. Arno is the least French Frenchman, his name is Arno rather than Arnaud. So in terms of names he's alienated from Elise and Pierre. Bellec likewise sounds like this lower-class thug among this middle-class sophisticated Assassins which well has its own nasty coding too but you know he calls Arno, "p-sspot" instad of "connard" compare that to the colourful Italian insults used liberally in the Ezio games.

So it might be better and less ropey than AC1's and AC2's exoticism but paradoxically it's function and effect is far worse and less immersive, and the dialogue created for the accents is neither good nor ill-fitting.

EmptyCrustacean
10-09-2015, 11:20 AM
Because history has shown that white audiences (mainstream audiences) will not buy a product with strong black or Native American leads, only if they're playing criminals or suffering people (slave movies). Just look at Connor as an example.

EmptyCrustacean
10-09-2015, 11:23 AM
Well, that's an easy one. For whatever reason, (ideological, political, etc) people back then tended to depict such figures as looking like themselves (and some still do). You really want a good religious art historian to put the details on it, but that's the basic reason.

Um, we're asking why UBISOFT depicted them that way.

Locopells
10-09-2015, 11:28 AM
I'm not sure, but wasn't Connery's different accent in Hunt for Red October on purpose because contrary to rest of crew he wasn't Russian, but Lithuanian?

Hit character is Lithuanian, but I've never been aware that it was any kind of artistic choice - it's one of SC's most well know traits that no matter what nationality he's playing, or language he's speaking, he always sounds Scottish.

VestigialLlama4
10-09-2015, 11:56 AM
Hit character is Lithuanian, but I've never been aware that it was any kind of artistic choice - it's one of SC's most well know traits that no matter what nationality he's playing, or language he's speaking, he always sounds Scottish.

If you are an actor like Sean Connery then accents don't matter. There is this movie TOUCH OF EVIL by Orson Welles and all the Mexicans are played by non-Mexicans (Armenians, Germans and of course Charlton Heston as the main lead) and none of them put on any accents. I mean Hunt for Red October is Cold War potboiler by Tom Clancy, it's not about actual Soviet army and practises. So authenticity doesn't matter in that sense. Nor does it in K19, where Liam Neeson and Harrison Ford play Russians. Though the American actor Armie Hammer rocks a really good Russian accent in The Man From UNCLE.


Because history has shown that white audiences (mainstream audiences) will not buy a product with strong black or Native American leads, only if they're playing criminals or suffering people (slave movies). Just look at Connor as an example.

That is legitimately not fair. Connor was heavily featured in the promotion of AC3's Box-Art, and trailers and everywhere. He was really the face of the game and the trailers had his voice, and it featured powerfully eloquent dialogues. AC3 had an amazingly successful launch so nobody can say people bought the game ''in spite'' of Connor. Most people bought the game for Connor and the setting.

The game's reception is another story altogether, as are the other issues about Ubisoft handling that reception.

Locopells
10-09-2015, 12:26 PM
If you are an actor like Sean Connery then accents don't matter.

Well exactly, it's why he gets away with it (it's never really bothered me), when other actors get bashed for it.

EmptyCrustacean
10-09-2015, 01:25 PM
If you are an actor like Sean Connery then accents don't matter. There is this movie TOUCH OF EVIL by Orson Welles and all the Mexicans are played by non-Mexicans (Armenians, Germans and of course Charlton Heston as the main lead) and none of them put on any accents. I mean Hunt for Red October is Cold War potboiler by Tom Clancy, it's not about actual Soviet army and practises. So authenticity doesn't matter in that sense. Nor does it in K19, where Liam Neeson and Harrison Ford play Russians. Though the American actor Armie Hammer rocks a really good Russian accent in The Man From UNCLE.



That is legitimately not fair. Connor was heavily featured in the promotion of AC3's Box-Art, and trailers and everywhere. He was really the face of the game and the trailers had his voice, and it featured powerfully eloquent dialogues. AC3 had an amazingly successful launch so nobody can say people bought the game ''in spite'' of Connor. Most people bought the game for Connor and the setting.

The game's reception is another story altogether, as are the other issues about Ubisoft handling that reception.

Absolute rubbish. People bought the game because at that point they trusted the brand and was interested in a more modern time period. It is also worth noting that Ubisoft heavily pushed the idea that Connor was HALF Native American during promotion. And the over-the-top response to Connor from fans only proves me right.

VestigialLlama4
10-09-2015, 02:08 PM
Absolute rubbish. People bought the game because at that point they trusted the brand and was interested in a more modern time period.

Which had absolutely zilch promotion. No trailers nothing.


It is also worth noting that Ubisoft heavily pushed the idea that Connor was HALF Native American during promotion.

They mentioned it yes, but that doesn't mean "pushed it heavily". Connor is visibly not a white guy, nor is he lighter skinned than the other Kanienha;ka and of course his weapon of choice is the Tomahawk. In any case the concept of "half Native American" didn't matter because to the Kanienkaha;ka and in many other tribes that doesn't matter, all kids they raise are one of their own as Kanieh;tio's dialogue confirms. It only matters to white society where despite Connor's white dad he will never truly be one of them. From a story perspective it provided a very emotional and compelling way to work the Assassin-Templar story with the Native American story.


And the over-the-counter response to Connor from fans only proves me right.

You need to separate that from the way the game was promoted. I think AC3's promotion was pretty even handed, much more so than Ubisoft's reaction the reception where they kind of abandoned Connor the way they didn't do to Altair. But anyway this is for another debate. I generally do think racism is a factor in Connor's reception but there has to be care and nuance at leveling that. After all if Ubisoft were racist from the start, they never would have made a game with Connor as the hero to start with, they could have given you The Patriot: The Game, nor would they treat the subject with as much seriousness they did. The fact is deep down they are bigger fans of Connor than any of us are.

EmptyCrustacean
10-09-2015, 09:37 PM
Which had absolutely zilch promotion. No trailers nothing.
It didn't need it - in all his promotional photos he visibly didn't look much different from Ezio and Altair mainly because they lightened his skin and he was wearing a hood that hid half his face.


They mentioned it yes, but that doesn't mean "pushed it heavily". Connor is visibly not a white guy, nor is he lighter skinned than the other Kanienha;ka and of course his weapon of choice is the Tomahawk. In any case the concept of "half Native American" didn't matter because to the Kanienkaha;ka and in many other tribes that doesn't matter, all kids they raise are one of their own as Kanieh;tio's dialogue confirms. It only matters to white society where despite Connor's white dad he will never truly be one of them. From a story perspective it provided a very emotional and compelling way to work the Assassin-Templar story with the Native American story.

Yes, it is true that the one drop rule is very much a thing in the white community but Ubisoft was clever to downplay Connor's Native origins by basically depicting him as a white man in all promotional photos and stressing he was half white in all their interviews so that his native origins were basically hidden. Of all the AC game trailers Connor's CGI counterpart looked the least like his in-game model.


You need to separate that from the way the game was promoted.

I don't have to do anything. I'm tired of you talking to me in a condescending and patronising tone when I can guarantee that I am more educated than you are. Again, I don't know who you think you are. You're some guy on the Internet talking about video games. Calm down.


I think AC3's promotion was pretty even handed, much more so than Ubisoft's reaction the reception where they kind of abandoned Connor the way they didn't do to Altair. But anyway this is for another debate. I generally do think racism is a factor in Connor's reception but there has to be care and nuance at leveling that. After all if Ubisoft were racist from the start, they never would have made a game with Connor as the hero to start with, they could have given you The Patriot: The Game, nor would they treat the subject with as much seriousness they did. The fact is deep down they are bigger fans of Connor than any of us are.

I didn't actually say Ubisoft are racist (although yes they are imo) so don't put words in my mouth without at least giving me the chance to say them first. They made us play as a white guy for the first few hours of the game so the fans could still get their brooding 30-year-old-white-male-with-brown-hair fix. They needed to ease us into Connor. That tells us a lot about who Ubisoft values as their audience. Their entire approach to Connor was wrong from the start and it only confirmed a bias amongst the fanbase.

I'm not going to get into this with you, V, because I understand propaganda through media where others would interpret as mere entertainment. You don't.

SixKeys
10-09-2015, 09:55 PM
EmptyCrustacean, you're the one that needs to calm down. You always seem to take things personally. "Who do you think you are? I'm more educated than you are, you're just some guy on the Internet talking about video games". Like, really? Criticize his posts all you want, but ad hominem attacks just make YOU look uneducated.

VestigialLlama4
10-09-2015, 10:09 PM
I don't have to do anything. I'm tired of you talking to me in a condescending and patronising tone when I can guarantee that I am more educated than you are. Again, I don't know who you think you are. You're some guy on the Internet talking about video games.

As opposed to you who is not some guy on the Internet talking about video games.


I'm not going to get into this with you, V, because I understand propaganda through media where others would interpret as mere entertainment. You don't.

Me, the SJW of this thread, not being able to understand "propaganda through media". Okay. Firstly propaganda by whom and for what? You act as if AC3 was made by the KKK and other type to promote white supremacy. AC3's flaws are essentially flaws made by liberals and political correct people. The whole AvT conflict and how it revolves around Native Americans and why a young Mohawk guy would be interested in is a genuine story problem that needs to be tackled, Ubisoft found a way that set up the story and drama.

The problems in AC3 in terms of representation, and all the tiny commercial compromises and hypocrisies is common across all media. It's very hard for white artists, even white liberal artists, to truly represent Native Americans from their point of view. There's almost never been a movie where you truly had a Native American or First Nation protagonist look at white society from their point of view.The only movie that came close is an obscure film called The Savage Innocents but then that movie has Anthony Quinn playing an Inuit so it has its own set of problems amidst all its virtues. But at the same time, its even worse if people don't try and AC3 definitely did. As it says in Goethe's Faust, "He who strives unceasingly upwards, them can we save" so with AC3 you have that attempt to tell a new kind of story. And in a way AC3 did, telling a story of a Native American hero's oedipal struggle is quite rare and interesting. Connor in effect becomes a tragic hero in the Greek mould. He even gets ambiguous commands from the gods.

In any case at the end of the day AC and all these games are mere entertainment only. That includes even the heavy history, political stuff because this stuff can be and is entertaining to watch in a game. They can make you think and raise issues about games and new kinds of stories but ultimately these are games. Ubisoft and AC should get credit for at least trying or at least they used to try to new kinds of stories, because it isn't easy or simple as you think. About, whether you can truly represent a broader range of humanity. It's not just about race either. If you are very middle class and have moderate income and if you had to write a story about a poor kid who lived in slums, I think you would find it quite hard to imagine a life where the stuff you take for granted is luxuries for the poor. Likewise for a male writer to write women and a straight writer to write gay characters.

RVSage
10-09-2015, 11:24 PM
I don't have to do anything. I'm tired of you talking to me in a condescending and patronising tone when I can guarantee that I am more educated than you are. Again, I don't know who you think you are. You're some guy on the Internet talking about video games. Calm down.



I'm not going to get into this with you, V, because I understand propaganda through media where others would interpret as mere entertainment. You don't.

You always take things personally don't you? You call me biased , disingenuous now you are calling Vestigia condescending and you say , you are more educated. Seriously man how personal you want to take these things?

You are the one who needs to calm down. Stop taking these personally mate. It's a game after all. You understand propaganda through media as propaganda and others interpret as mere entertainment and he doesn't? You are questioning a person's very intelligence here , are you not? (Remember Ubisoft does put in a big screen when the game starts, stating everything depicted is fiction).

If you have a opinion I respect it , most of us do. But do not impose yours on us or call it superior. Your opinion is as good as the number of people agreeing to it.

Consider this as a request , stop taking things personally

Locopells
10-10-2015, 12:30 AM
Alright everyone, let's NOT do this again...

EmptyCrustacean
10-10-2015, 11:16 AM
Ask yourself this, V, why didn't they make Connor a full blooded NA? Why does he have to be mixed race? Go on. I'd love to see your response.


As opposed to you who is not some guy on the Internet talking about video games.

Yes, but the difference is I'm not acting like my knowledge of AC gives me some intellectual superiority over others.


Me, the SJW of this thread, not being able to understand "propaganda through media".

Um, who called you an SJW? You're self-proclaiming that. I'm the one who is always called SJW for being the ONLY ONE to point out racism where no one else here seems to have a problem with. I never see you backing me up on that. In fact, I recently pointed out the racism of another FM and everyone jumped on me for my criticism of it even though the person made disgusting jokes about black slavery.


Okay. Firstly propaganda by whom and for what? You act as if AC3 was made by the KKK and other type to promote white supremacy.

I think Adewale may be the only protagonist that you have to kill WHILST PLAYING AS A WHITE TEMPLAR. That's right, Ubisoft made a full game with a white TEMPLAR before they made a full game with a POC Assassin and then they had you kill off a black Assassin we played as in a DLC. Yes, please tell me again how Ubisoft don't have contempt for POC?


AC3's flaws are essentially flaws made by liberals and political correct people.

Yes, with ingrained subconcious racism. Liberals are the worst types of racists because they try to project their stereotypical ideas of what they expect POC to be onto the general audience whilst expecting pats on the back for being "inclusive".


The whole AvT conflict and how it revolves around Native Americans and why a young Mohawk guy would be interested in is a genuine story problem that needs to be tackled, Ubisoft found a way that set up the story and drama.

And they did it horribly. If you honestly think ACIII was a fair representation of Native Americans and the American Revolution in general then you are part of the problem.


The problems in AC3 in terms of representation, and all the tiny commercial compromises and hypocrisies is common across all media. It's very hard for white artists, even white liberal artists, to truly represent Native Americans from their point of view. There's almost never been a movie where you truly had a Native American or First Nation protagonist look at white society from their point of view.The only movie that came close is an obscure film called The Savage Innocents but then that movie has Anthony Quinn playing an Inuit so it has its own set of problems amidst all its virtues. But at the same time, its even worse if people don't try and AC3 definitely did. As it says in Goethe's Faust, "He who strives unceasingly upwards, them can we save" so with AC3 you have that attempt to tell a new kind of story. And in a way AC3 did, telling a story of a Native American hero's oedipal struggle is quite rare and interesting. Connor in effect becomes a tragic hero in the Greek mould. He even gets ambiguous commands from the gods.

Summary of this quote: "yeah, it's offensive and inaccurate but at least Ubisoft tried!"


In any case at the end of the day AC and all these games are mere entertainment only. That includes even the heavy history, political stuff because this stuff can be and is entertaining to watch in a game. They can make you think and raise issues about games and new kinds of stories but ultimately these are games. Ubisoft and AC should get credit for at least trying or at least they used to try to new kinds of stories, because it isn't easy or simple as you think. About, whether you can truly represent a broader range of humanity. It's not just about race either. If you are very middle class and have moderate income and if you had to write a story about a poor kid who lived in slums, I think you would find it quite hard to imagine a life where the stuff you take for granted is luxuries for the poor. Likewise for a male writer to write women and a straight writer to write gay characters.

More excuses. If you don't want to write an honest portrayal of a different culture from their perspective then common sense dictates that you shouldn't be doing it at all. Simple. To be honest, I don't ever want to see Ubisoft attempt a POC ever again after what they did with Aveline, Connor, Achellis and Adewale. Stay away from Egypt, Japan, China etc Ubisoft and stick to your European white male power fantasies. Thanks.

EmptyCrustacean
10-10-2015, 11:25 AM
You always take things personally don't you? You call me biased , disingenuous now you are calling Vestigia condescending and you say , you are more educated. Seriously man how personal you want to take these things? You are the one who needs to calm down. Stop taking these personally mate. It's a game after all. You understand propaganda through media as propaganda and others interpret as mere entertainment and he doesn't? You are questioning a person's very intelligence here , are you not? (Remember Ubisoft does put in a big screen when the game starts, stating everything depicted is fiction).

Don't hijack this thead with your personal beef with me. Put it in a PM. Also, I didn't call you biased and disingenous. I said what you DID was biased and disingenuous. There is a difference. And that debate regarding Arkham Knight (which I clearly won because you had absolutely no idea what you were talking about) I didn't take personally at all. It was you, rather, who took it to heart when I laid out the cold, hard facts.


If you have a opinion I respect it , most of us do. But do not impose yours on us or call it superior. Your opinion is as good as the number of people agreeing to it.

I haven't imposed my opinion. I simply stated my thoughts in how Ubisoft handled POC characters and people took it to heart. It's a double standard: somebody states their opinion of Ubi game it's all good. I do it and I am seen as threatening or "aggressive". And I think I know why but that's a whole other debate that would surely get this thread locked.


Consider this as a request , stop taking things personally

lol

Jessigirl2013
10-10-2015, 11:49 AM
I am not sure that comparison is fair at all. For one thing UNITY has a very small supporting cast, the three most developed characters are Arno, Elise and Pierre Bellec. Alongside them you can add Mirabeau, De Sade and Napoleon. So there's no sense of like to like. I mean compare Mario to Mirabeau, Richard Lionheart/Lorenzo/Caterina/Washington/Suleiman to Napoleon, Malik/Machiavelli to Bellec and Altair/Ezio/Connor to Arno. The supporting cast in AC1-Black Flag is bigger than Unity's individually. The only exception is Revelation where it's a much smaller cast than the games that preceded it. So if you say that there's a variation in level of accents in supporting casts in those games, it's also purely because they have far more characters and more stuff for them to do than Unity does.

But you know accents aren't just about how they sound to the audience. The choice of accents aside from how they sound, determines the dialogue.

In many cases Unity's dialogue is off-key and defeats the drama of the setting and the scenes. Like at one point Arno and Elise talk about Germain's plan creating chaos and Arno says, "it'll be Bedlam" that's a British expression for "It'll be chaos" (referring to the London mental hospital which we will visit in Syndicate). It's so specifically English that it takes you out of the fame, and reminds you that they aren't French at all. In the AC2 games, Ezio and Antionio use actual Italian slang, like before they attack Palazzo della Seta they say, "In bocca al lupo" (also the title of the final mission) which is an Italian idiom for "let's do this". There's a sense that you are with these guys, and part of their world. And in a way that's what the accents main function is. More than simple authenticity. It should be a way for you to connect to that open world. That you are Italian in an Italian open world and you should be French in a French open world. In Unity you don't get that at all. Arno is the least French Frenchman, his name is Arno rather than Arnaud. So in terms of names he's alienated from Elise and Pierre. Bellec likewise sounds like this lower-class thug among this middle-class sophisticated Assassins which well has its own nasty coding too but you know he calls Arno, "p-sspot" instad of "connard" compare that to the colourful Italian insults used liberally in the Ezio games.

So it might be better and less ropey than AC1's and AC2's exoticism but paradoxically it's function and effect is far worse and less immersive, and the dialogue created for the accents is neither good nor ill-fitting.

As I'm from England, Ill be honest I didn't even notice the accents really...:rolleyes:

But I can see how for regions where the accent isn't common place it could be rather jarring;)
I mean if it was American accents I would of noticed immediately :rolleyes:

I agree with all your points and they are explained well. ;)
I also didn't notice the use of the word bedlam as I'm just so used to hearing it :rolleyes:

AC2 did a great job with the dialogue.

I am the only person who thinks the accents in Unity would of been better in Syndicate instead of the awful job of cockney accents.:rolleyes:

VestigialLlama4
10-10-2015, 12:59 PM
Ask yourself this, V, why didn't they make Connor a full blooded NA? Why does he have to be mixed race? Go on. I'd love to see your response.

The response is simply, "He lacks the right balance to tell the true story of America". ;) As Ubisoft admitted in the character videos of Black Flag.

The other issue is that Connor is Desmond's ancestor and Desmond, well he had Arabic and Italian ancestry and now he's going to be part native american and still look kind of white. So obviously the developers felt that if Connor was half-English himself it would work better to buy that he's Desmond's ancestor. In any case, Connor being mixed-race is only an issue for white people or non-natives, within his tribe growing up, Connor was one of them, so he is every sense entirely Mohawk because the people who are Mohawk say he is. Mixed-race and other categories only matter to the society that upholds them after all.


I think Adewale may be the only protagonist...

I am not a fan of Rogue and I kept telling everyone here that it's a game with dubious subtext and it absurdly and unthinkingly paints the Templars as nice without raising issues. I have had problems with Templars being anti-slavery right from Black Flag which I even expressed to Darby McDevitt since he introduced it, and even he admitted it was a difficult issue.


Yes, please tell me again how Ubisoft don't have contempt for POC?

Look if the subject of representation and other issues is of importance, and it very much is, it has to be done with a certain nuance, and not couch everything in extremes. Just because Ubisoft isn't totally consistent and falls back on lazy storytelling in Rogue, does not mean that Liberation, Freedom Cry, AC3 and Black Flag gets magicked away or rendered inconsequential. After all, Freedom Cry is a far more respected and beloved piece of transmedia than a piece of s--t like Rogue anyway.


If you honestly think ACIII was a fair representation of Native Americans and the American Revolution in general then you are part of the problem.

As I say you can't think in extremes. Compared to THE PATRIOT (Mel Gibson movie), AC3 was a fair representation. This is entirely about relative standards to the game world. In a popular culture where the Crusades is always told from the Christian viewpoint even in movies like Kingdom of Heaven which is adventure-movie-that-makes-us-feel-bad-about-it-but-enjoy-it-as-well, AC1 stands out. In a popular culture where the only exposure people have about the Renaissance might be The Agony of the Ecstacy (with Charlton Heston) or Da Vinci Code, the Ezio games stand out. Revelations is pretty much one of the few non-stereotypical and respectful depictions of Ottoman Turkey you have in western culture, aside from translations of Orhan Pamuk novels. Black Flag is one of the few times where you have a sympathetic and non-judgmental look at these pirates, seeing them as human beings rather than evil bad guys, and doing it without the hypocrisy of Pirates of the Caribbean movies where in true Disney fashion, the pirate character audiences like is the one who we never see doing actual pirating. That is why UNITY was such a disappointment because it went against the subversive challenge-preconception approach of the earlier games.

We are not comparing AC to actual historical research/documentaries/art movies here. These are popular works meant for a wide audience. It's great that in the earlier games Ubisoft decided to expand the possibilities of storytelling by not relying (or more precisely, not relying entirely) on period cliches and notions.


Summary of this quote: "yeah, it's offensive and inaccurate but at least Ubisoft tried!"

More excuses. If you don't want to write an honest portrayal of a different culture from their perspective then common sense dictates that you shouldn't be doing it at all. Simple. To be honest, I don't ever want to see Ubisoft attempt a POC ever again after what they did with Aveline, Connor, Achellis and Adewale. Stay away from Egypt, Japan, China etc Ubisoft and stick to your European white male power fantasies. Thanks.

Again another extreme altogether, sheesh. The fact of the matter is that if you open the door to new kinds of characters, however imperfectly you are at least setting some standards for other creators to come and improve on. It's never going to be easy but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try. And Ubisoft certainly did better than...almost any developer. Compare Achilles, Connor, Aveline and Adewale to Daisy Fitzroy in Bioshock Infinite, a flawed occassionally great game at that.

I actually agree with a lot of what you say, but if you were less combative and more nuanced...ultimately I do all my criticisms and stuff because on a basic level I like these games and I want it to be better and I want the franchise to live up to what made it good. So that they can do better in the future.

Journey93
10-10-2015, 02:32 PM
The response is simply, "He lacks the right balance to tell the true story of America". ;) As Ubisoft admitted in the character videos of Black Flag.

The other issue is that Connor is Desmond's ancestor and Desmond, well he had Arabic and Italian ancestry and now he's going to be part native american and still look kind of white. So obviously the developers felt that if Connor was half-English himself it would work better to buy that he's Desmond's ancestor. In any case, Connor being mixed-race is only an issue for white people or non-natives, within his tribe growing up, Connor was one of them, so he is every sense entirely Mohawk because the people who are Mohawk say he is. Mixed-race and other categories only matter to the society that upholds them after all.



I am not a fan of Rogue and I kept telling everyone here that it's a game with dubious subtext and it absurdly and unthinkingly paints the Templars as nice without raising issues. I have had problems with Templars being anti-slavery right from Black Flag which I even expressed to Darby McDevitt since he introduced it, and even he admitted it was a difficult issue.



Look if the subject of representation and other issues is of importance, and it very much is, it has to be done with a certain nuance, and not couch everything in extremes. Just because Ubisoft isn't totally consistent and falls back on lazy storytelling in Rogue, does not mean that Liberation, Freedom Cry, AC3 and Black Flag gets magicked away or rendered inconsequential. After all, Freedom Cry is a far more respected and beloved piece of transmedia than a piece of s--t like Rogue anyway.



As I say you can't think in extremes. Compared to THE PATRIOT (Mel Gibson movie), AC3 was a fair representation. This is entirely about relative standards to the game world. In a popular culture where the Crusades is always told from the Christian viewpoint even in movies like Kingdom of Heaven which is adventure-movie-that-makes-us-feel-bad-about-it-but-enjoy-it-as-well, AC1 stands out. In a popular culture where the only exposure people have about the Renaissance might be The Agony of the Ecstacy (with Charlton Heston) or Da Vinci Code, the Ezio games stand out. Revelations is pretty much one of the few non-stereotypical and respectful depictions of Ottoman Turkey you have in western culture, aside from translations of Orhan Pamuk novels. Black Flag is one of the few times where you have a sympathetic and non-judgmental look at these pirates, seeing them as human beings rather than evil bad guys, and doing it without the hypocrisy of Pirates of the Caribbean movies where in true Disney fashion, the pirate character audiences like is the one who we never see doing actual pirating. That is why UNITY was such a disappointment because it went against the subversive challenge-preconception approach of the earlier games.

We are not comparing AC to actual historical research/documentaries/art movies here. These are popular works meant for a wide audience. It's great that in the earlier games Ubisoft decided to expand the possibilities of storytelling by not relying (or more precisely, not relying entirely) on period cliches and notions.



Again another extreme altogether, sheesh. The fact of the matter is that if you open the door to new kinds of characters, however imperfectly you are at least setting some standards for other creators to come and improve on. It's never going to be easy but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try. And Ubisoft certainly did better than...almost any developer. Compare Achilles, Connor, Aveline and Adewale to Daisy Fitzroy in Bioshock Infinite, a flawed occassionally great game at that.

I actually agree with a lot of what you say, but if you were less combative and more nuanced...ultimately I do all my criticisms and stuff because on a basic level I like these games and I want it to be better and I want the franchise to live up to what made it good. So that they can do better in the future.

Wait what's the problem with Templars being against Slavery?

I agree about Rogue btw, that game was so biased and Shay's character was a mess. He questioned everything about the Assassins but when it comes to the Templars he was on board since the beginning.

Maybe they could have shown transition from Assassin to Templar in a more gradual way if it wasn't so short

Namikaze_17
10-10-2015, 02:33 PM
Why are they naked? :rolleyes:

Sorrosyss
10-10-2015, 02:49 PM
I think it's pretty obvious that Adam and Eve were based off the First Civilization themselves. In fairness we don't really see many ordinary humans in the few short clips we have seen of that era.

Whats more interesting is Juno's appearance. She has glowing yellowish eyes, and super pale bleach white skin. Freaking vampire clearly.

VestigialLlama4
10-10-2015, 03:01 PM
Why are they naked? :rolleyes:

That's actually kind of the weird part of Adam and Eve. In Paradise, God intended Adam and Eve to be naked and pure and without shame. So does that mean that paradise is a nudist colony? And if so isn't wearing revealing clothing a step closer to paradise and that the church's obsession with vestments and covering up bodies is doing the serpent's work in Eden...damn it, religion how does your wires get crossed this way.

In AC, Adam and Eve are not naked in that video, they are kind of wearing body-suits, I guess.


Wait what's the problem with Templars being against Slavery?

It makes zero logical sense. See the Templars are supposed to control the world with money, with capital and government influence. The Assassins stand with the outsiders, with the displaced and oppressed whereas Templars stand with the authorities. In the New World, whether its the Spanish, French, Dutch or English colonies, nobody, and I mean nobody, made a great deal of money without profiting from slavery. Likewise, if after the Assassins are purged at the end of Rogue, where Templars are supposed to be all-powerful and unopposed, you still had slavery in that time which the Templars did nothing to eradicate. That can only mean that the Templars tolerated it or profited it or that they didn't care after all. The Templars can't be all-powerful and influential and be against slavery. That makes zero sense, it's the basic logic of the open-world, lore and society.


I agree about Rogue btw, that game was so biased and Shay's character was a mess. He questioned everything about the Assassins but when it comes to the Templars he was on board since the beginning.

Maybe they could have shown transition from Assassin to Templar in a more gradual way if it wasn't so short

A story of going from Assassin to Templar can be done but it can't be done the way it is in Rogue, via earthquake machine. The point is you can't have a "good Templar" it defeats any appeal the Templars actually have for fans, the appeal that sometimes the villains might be right to do bad things. In AC1, fans liked the Templars because we thought, "you know that Garnier guy is right for breaking that dude's legs because it at least kept these lunatics off the street" or Abul Nuqod is "right for murdering these scumbag war profiters and homophobes at the party". We also liked Haytham and Thomas Hickey even in AC3 because their corrupt, cold, ruthless and extreme ways kind of sounded sensible. Hickey says, "I'm in it for booze and girls...got a problem with that" or Haytham says "Okay I want to whack Washington and put a dictatorship, but at least I'm honest. This Washington's idea of democracy is vote for the rich, white and male. Whereas with me and Lee in charge, everyone will be equally oppressed." I mean that's the challenge you have.

For Rogue to truly work you must be allowed to do reprehensible things for what seems like understandable reasons. You need to have optional objects that state "Burn whole villages to hunt one lone Assassin". You need to have orders by Gist saying Native Village supports Assassins "Take hostages and scare them into naming names. If they show any backbone, cut off a child's arm or kill one of the women to show we don't f--k around with our threats. Prove that people will submit to force and docilely submit to order, that our ways work". A true Templar game would be virtually unplayable, and it should be virtually unplayable because that's the logic of the Templar ideology, atrocities for the greater good. It would certainly be a valid way to explore history because there have been people who have done such evil things and they managed to even get some results.

KittyRino
10-10-2015, 03:01 PM
adam and eve are actualy from narnia they come to alive when minotaur and centaur haved sex and there was adam and eve they were gray like the aliens so they haved sex with monkeys and woohooo there was first sons and doughters of eve

LieutenantRex
10-10-2015, 03:09 PM
The response is simply, "He lacks the right balance to tell the true story of America". ;) As Ubisoft admitted in the character videos of Black Flag.

The other issue is that Connor is Desmond's ancestor and Desmond, well he had Arabic and Italian ancestry and now he's going to be part native american and still look kind of white. So obviously the developers felt that if Connor was half-English himself it would work better to buy that he's Desmond's ancestor. In any case, Connor being mixed-race is only an issue for white people or non-natives, within his tribe growing up, Connor was one of them, so he is every sense entirely Mohawk because the people who are Mohawk say he is. Mixed-race and other categories only matter to the society that upholds them after all.



I am not a fan of Rogue and I kept telling everyone here that it's a game with dubious subtext and it absurdly and unthinkingly paints the Templars as nice without raising issues. I have had problems with Templars being anti-slavery right from Black Flag which I even expressed to Darby McDevitt since he introduced it, and even he admitted it was a difficult issue.



Look if the subject of representation and other issues is of importance, and it very much is, it has to be done with a certain nuance, and not couch everything in extremes. Just because Ubisoft isn't totally consistent and falls back on lazy storytelling in Rogue, does not mean that Liberation, Freedom Cry, AC3 and Black Flag gets magicked away or rendered inconsequential. After all, Freedom Cry is a far more respected and beloved piece of transmedia than a piece of s--t like Rogue anyway.



As I say you can't think in extremes. Compared to THE PATRIOT (Mel Gibson movie), AC3 was a fair representation. This is entirely about relative standards to the game world. In a popular culture where the Crusades is always told from the Christian viewpoint even in movies like Kingdom of Heaven which is adventure-movie-that-makes-us-feel-bad-about-it-but-enjoy-it-as-well, AC1 stands out. In a popular culture where the only exposure people have about the Renaissance might be The Agony of the Ecstacy (with Charlton Heston) or Da Vinci Code, the Ezio games stand out. Revelations is pretty much one of the few non-stereotypical and respectful depictions of Ottoman Turkey you have in western culture, aside from translations of Orhan Pamuk novels. Black Flag is one of the few times where you have a sympathetic and non-judgmental look at these pirates, seeing them as human beings rather than evil bad guys, and doing it without the hypocrisy of Pirates of the Caribbean movies where in true Disney fashion, the pirate character audiences like is the one who we never see doing actual pirating. That is why UNITY was such a disappointment because it went against the subversive challenge-preconception approach of the earlier games.

We are not comparing AC to actual historical research/documentaries/art movies here. These are popular works meant for a wide audience. It's great that in the earlier games Ubisoft decided to expand the possibilities of storytelling by not relying (or more precisely, not relying entirely) on period cliches and notions.



Again another extreme altogether, sheesh. The fact of the matter is that if you open the door to new kinds of characters, however imperfectly you are at least setting some standards for other creators to come and improve on. It's never going to be easy but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try. And Ubisoft certainly did better than...almost any developer. Compare Achilles, Connor, Aveline and Adewale to Daisy Fitzroy in Bioshock Infinite, a flawed occassionally great game at that.

I actually agree with a lot of what you say, but if you were less combative and more nuanced...ultimately I do all my criticisms and stuff because on a basic level I like these games and I want it to be better and I want the franchise to live up to what made it good. So that they can do better in the future.

You usually make good points, and I almost always agree, but at times I find that you are too complacent. Sometimes combative stances are necessary for a change to occur.

Namikaze_17
10-10-2015, 03:20 PM
In AC, Adam and Eve are not naked in that video, they are kind of wearing body-suits, I guess.

Yeah, I assumed that going by all the sci-fi effects that came from those "body suits".

The naked thing was only a play on the title, my friend. :p

Journey93
10-10-2015, 05:17 PM
That's actually kind of the weird part of Adam and Eve. In Paradise, God intended Adam and Eve to be naked and pure and without shame. So does that mean that paradise is a nudist colony? And if so isn't wearing revealing clothing a step closer to paradise and that the church's obsession with vestments and covering up bodies is doing the serpent's work in Eden...damn it, religion how does your wires get crossed this way.

In AC, Adam and Eve are not naked in that video, they are kind of wearing body-suits, I guess.



It makes zero logical sense. See the Templars are supposed to control the world with money, with capital and government influence. The Assassins stand with the outsiders, with the displaced and oppressed whereas Templars stand with the authorities. In the New World, whether its the Spanish, French, Dutch or English colonies, nobody, and I mean nobody, made a great deal of money without profiting from slavery. Likewise, if after the Assassins are purged at the end of Rogue, where Templars are supposed to be all-powerful and unopposed, you still had slavery in that time which the Templars did nothing to eradicate. That can only mean that the Templars tolerated it or profited it or that they didn't care after all. The Templars can't be all-powerful and influential and be against slavery. That makes zero sense, it's the basic logic of the open-world, lore and society.



A story of going from Assassin to Templar can be done but it can't be done the way it is in Rogue, via earthquake machine. The point is you can't have a "good Templar" it defeats any appeal the Templars actually have for fans, the appeal that sometimes the villains might be right to do bad things. In AC1, fans liked the Templars because we thought, "you know that Garnier guy is right for breaking that dude's legs because it at least kept these lunatics off the street" or Abul Nuqod is "right for murdering these scumbag war profiters and homophobes at the party". We also liked Haytham and Thomas Hickey even in AC3 because their corrupt, cold, ruthless and extreme ways kind of sounded sensible. Hickey says, "I'm in it for booze and girls...got a problem with that" or Haytham says "Okay I want to whack Washington and put a dictatorship, but at least I'm honest. This Washington's idea of democracy is vote for the rich, white and male. Whereas with me and Lee in charge, everyone will be equally oppressed." I mean that's the challenge you have.

For Rogue to truly work you must be allowed to do reprehensible things for what seems like understandable reasons. You need to have optional objects that state "Burn whole villages to hunt one lone Assassin". You need to have orders by Gist saying Native Village supports Assassins "Take hostages and scare them into naming names. If they show any backbone, cut off a child's arm or kill one of the women to show we don't f--k around with our threats. Prove that people will submit to force and docilely submit to order, that our ways work". A true Templar game would be virtually unplayable, and it should be virtually unplayable because that's the logic of the Templar ideology, atrocities for the greater good. It would certainly be a valid way to explore history because there have been people who have done such evil things and they managed to even get some results.

You have a good point about Slavery. They probably did it to make them seem more gray (like in AC3).

And yeah I agree about Rogue. A very poor Templar game, they really wasted it. Thats why I would have liked to play as Haytham in that time and with no silly earthquake machines but just him and his Templar buddies hunting Assassins and killing off the entire Brotherhood in North America.
There really was no need to have any excuses and make the Assassins so silly.

Instead they tried to show the Templars as good and the Assassins as bad with a very biased protagonist.

Hans684
10-10-2015, 05:18 PM
Wait what's the problem with Templars being against Slavery?

Nothing, they have been against at least 5 times. The Caribbean Rite that wanted to end all the corrupt slaver nations, something the Assassins prevented. The Colonial Rite, something Connor & co prevented when they was gonna end the corrupt slaver nations ruled by privileged cowards who only care about themselves. The Ottoman/Byzantine Rite, Ahmet wanted to break down the things that keep people divvied, that makes them fight each other. The Moderate/Traditionalist Parisian Rite lead by De la Serre and Germain's rogue Extremist Rite, De la Serre planed to have a peaceful revolution by overthrowing the monarchy in Paris along with the Assassin with a peaceful revolution. The king would be replaced by another or by a council of capable men. Then you have Garmain's Extremist Rite that actually ended slavery by France. It's hardly a new concept among Templars.


I agree about Rogue btw, that game was so biased and Shay's character was a mess.

It's no different that AC2, ACB and ACS.


He questioned everything about the Assassins but when it comes to the Templars he was on board since the beginning.

Incorrect.


Maybe they could have shown transition from Assassin to Templar in a more gradual way if it wasn't so short

It worked fine, just that people tend to ignore most and is hugely ignorant about what it means to a Templars and of course all the different kinds. Good Templars are hardly a new concept, it's existed since the Original.

EmptyCrustacean
10-10-2015, 06:03 PM
You usually make good points, and I almost always agree, but at times I find that you are too complacent. Sometimes combative stances are necessary for a change to occur.

He's complacent because he wants to stick to a status quo that serves his white priviledge. Nothing more, nothing less.

VestigialLlama4
10-10-2015, 06:41 PM
He's complacent because he wants to stick to a status quo that serves his white priviledge. Nothing more, nothing less.

Wow, you actually assumed I am white. I mean, seriously.

I-Like-Pie45
10-10-2015, 06:50 PM
male academia!!!~

ACZanius
10-10-2015, 07:23 PM
Who even cares? They were made like that by creators, everything from detail to looks, it's how it is, First Civ created them in that image, this thread is useless and bate click, it provokes arguments and **** talk. Feel free to continue don't mind me but again why is this relevant information in AC?

EmptyCrustacean
10-10-2015, 07:45 PM
Wow, you actually assumed I am white. I mean, seriously.

How can I not when you show such obvious bias? And if you're not then you really, really love white people. I mean, seriously.

HDinHB
10-10-2015, 07:52 PM
http://i.imgur.com/kzXV6XL.gif


What phase of the moon is it?

pacmanate
10-10-2015, 11:17 PM
Oh my god EmptyCrustacean, you make these forums a pain to come back too.

EmptyCrustacean
10-10-2015, 11:47 PM
Oh my god EmptyCrustacean, you make these forums a pain to come back too.

Yeah, this coming from the person who didn't seem to take issue with the slavery joke and was more concerned about me calling it out. Then pretended he/she hadn't seen it and was exposed as lying.

Locopells
10-11-2015, 12:09 AM
OK, I'm gonna say this one final time. If anybody has a problem with anyone else, either take it to PM, or bring it to a mod/FM/CM. Otherwise, if you can't say anything nice, then keep it to yourself.

I-Like-Pie45
10-11-2015, 12:52 AM
nice?

it rhymes with ice

ICE CREAM!!

EmptyCrustacean
10-11-2015, 01:09 AM
The response is simply, "He lacks the right balance to tell the true story of America". ;) As Ubisoft admitted in the character videos of Black Flag.

This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever read on this forum. So all those white male leads in just about every historic drama in every entertainment medium are fine but when we have a Native American character they must be half white so we can have “balance”? You hear that my brown folks? You can't play a lead in any historic epic because you lack the right balance to tell history properly lol. Guess film makers should have made Solomon Northup a half white dude to provide “balance” In 12 Years a Slave then. Do you even read your posts after you type them? You should.

It could never be "balanced" because in order to have true diverse representation in front of the camera you need to have it behind the camera which Ubi does not. And yes, I did reference that Matt Damon controversy.


The other issue is that Connor is Desmond's ancestor and Desmond, well he had Arabic and Italian ancestry and now he's going to be part native american and still look kind of white. So obviously the developers felt that if Connor was half-English himself it would work better to buy that he's Desmond's ancestor.

I take back my previous quote - THIS is the most ridiculous thing I've read on the forums lol. There's nothing to say that a full blooded NA Connor couldn't marry a white woman, have a mixed race child and then the mixed race child goes on to marry a white person and so forth. You’re displaying such ignorance and you clearly have no idea how genetics work. My dad is of mixed ethnicities and he married a black woman but I am black. I look black and if I went on to have a child with a black man my children would look black too. Desmond could have looked just as white had they gone down this route seeing as his blood line pre-dates hundreds of years before he was even born lol. talk about graspin at straws. And stop saying “the developers felt”. Take responsibility for how you feel. :rolleyes:


I am not a fan of Rogue and I kept telling everyone here that it's a game with dubious subtext and it absurdly and unthinkingly paints the Templars as nice without raising issues. I have had problems with Templars being anti-slavery right from Black Flag which I even expressed to Darby McDevitt since he introduced it, and even he admitted it was a difficult issue.

Nice try but don't change the subject. This is not about whether Rogue sucks or not and you know it. The issue I flagged was about playing as a white Templar in a full game before playing as POC Assassin in a full game. Then Ubisoft forcing us to kill a POC Assassin we played as in a crap DLC like some common target. You have not addressed this issue at all.


Look if the subject of representation and other issues is of importance, and it very much is, it has to be done with a certain nuance, and not couch everything in extremes. Just because Ubisoft isn't totally consistent and falls back on lazy storytelling in Rogue, does not mean that Liberation, Freedom Cry, AC3 and Black Flag gets magicked away or rendered inconsequential. After all, Freedom Cry is a far more respected and beloved piece of transmedia than a piece of s--t like Rogue anyway.

Your idea of ‘nuance’ is clearly making sure only white people have their say. It’s a complete cop out to justify white media’s interpretation of history and to protect the status quo. Did you honestly put Liberation on that list? Liberation is extremely racist for a number of reasons I have mentioned plenty of times before so I won’t even get into it here. I cannot see why any black person would enjoy that piece of trash, especially black women. Disgraceful. It’s the sort of game that liberals can tick off their PC checklist but it doesn’t actually advance change because the role is so stereotypical. And sorry, who loves Freedom Cry exactly? Who?


As I say you can't think in extremes. Compared to THE PATRIOT (Mel Gibson movie),

Yes, I know The Patriot. I have a movie blog so I am well versed in film. And it’s interesting that you mention Mel ‘I hope you get sexually assaulted by a pack of black guys’ Gibson. btw what Gibson said was far worse.


AC3 was a fair representation.

The only people that would say it was fair are white Americans who the game is pandering to. Making out Americans are the good guys and Brits were the bad guys is as black and white as it comes for somebody harping on about ‘nuance’. And Haytham is a character that exists purely so that white liberals today can feel like they would have been one of the nice people leading the fight against the settlers. It’s pandering at its worst. All the main characters in the game are white. Even Connor's Native friends and family all die. It would have been nice to have some main Native characters rather than ticking tome bombs.


We are not comparing AC to actual historical research/documentaries/art movies here. These are popular works meant for a wide audience

Translation: These are popular works meant for a white audience. :rolleyes: It's funny how for something that is made for a "wide audience" they sure are white male driven.


It's great that in the earlier games Ubisoft decided to expand the possibilities of storytelling by not relying (or more precisely, not relying entirely) on period cliches and notions.

You think ACIII’s story wasn’t one big cliché? LOL I’m done.


Again another extreme altogether, sheesh. The fact of the matter is that if you open the door to new kinds of characters, however imperfectly you are at least setting some standards for other creators to come and improve on. It's never going to be easy but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try. And Ubisoft certainly did better than...almost any developer. Compare Achilles, Connor, Aveline and Adewale to Daisy Fitzroy in Bioshock Infinite, a flawed occassionally great game at that.

Congratulations - you mentioned a black female character slightly more abhorrent than Aveline. That still doesn’t make Aveline any good. Likewise the other characters you mentioned. Ubi couldn’t allow Achilles to be a great Master Assassin - he had to be corrupt hack who loses everything and is a broken man by the beginning of ACIII. They couldn’t allow Adewale to be a fierce warrior who overcame his dark past. He too had to be a corrupt, follower who had somehow forgot the difference between right and wrong. They couldn’t allow us to play as Connor throughout the entire game, they made us play as a white man first so white audiences could have someone to relate to. It's also worth noting that the first ever black person we saw in an AC game who Ubisoft had characters refer to as "The African" was a knob that Ezio offed. Ubisoft want to be inclusive but they can't shake the ingrained perception they have of black people that we are all evil. That's an internal conflict liberals face everyday.


I actually agree with a lot of what you say, but if you were less combative and more nuanced....

:rolleyes:



I'm very good when it comes to the topic of racism because the opposition (racists) are VERY predictable in their responses and I know what you're going to say even before you've said it. It’s all excuses, weak comparisons, contradictions and ignorance. You’ve proven here you have no idea what you’re talking about and are completely out of your depth.

I haven’t put you on my ignore list because you usually make some good points and I only reserve my ignore list for people I don't think are very bright and/or make non constructive posts that don't add anything. But when you make offensive statements like "Connor needed to be half white to provide balance" (lol) and Desmond is white so Connor needed to be half white... even though Connor was born hundreds of years before Desmond it leads me to make a judgment about you - and not one that puts you in a good light.

Assassin_M
10-11-2015, 01:23 AM
You know, people who say Empty makes this place toxic...you're just adding more fuel. Ignore, ignore, ignore. I knew this was a bad idea.

booty_fiend
10-11-2015, 02:15 AM
Translation: These are popular works meant for a white audience. :rolleyes: It's funny how for something that is made for a "wide audience" they sure are white male driven.
this should have been the content of "the truth" video in ac2, rather than that whitewashed adam and eve escape.

it's like ubisoft is saying, "only white history is good enough for our games." (america is culturally a european country, as is its history; i don't care about the pointless geographic distinction. most americans are europeans. what i'm saying is that ac iii is still a game based on a european time period, to those americans out there who think they are somehow different from their european ancestors.)

even ac 1 was closely tied to european history, though i'll give it points for being set in the middle east for a change.

the more unique and interesting settings of china and india were relegated to side-scrollers, though...

it's obvious who this series is aimed at.

SixKeys
10-11-2015, 02:16 AM
This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever read on this forum. So all those white male leads in just about every historic drama in every entertainment medium are fine but when we have a Native American character they must be half white so we can have “balance”? You hear that my brown folks? You can't play a lead in any historic epic because you lack the right balance to tell history properly lol. Guess film makers should have made Solomon Northup a half white dude to provide “balance” In 12 Years a Slave then. Do you even read your posts after you type them? You should.

It could never be "balanced" because in order to have true diverse representation in front of the camera you need to have it behind the camera which Ubi does not. And yes, I did reference that Matt Damon controversy.

You do realize he was being sarcastic?

Journey93
10-11-2015, 03:26 AM
@ EmptyCrustacean

Calm down. You are very hostile and are taking things too personally.

Its just a game. There doesn't have to be a hidden agenda behind everything, jeez.

LieutenantRex
10-11-2015, 05:03 AM
@ EmptyCrustacean

Calm down. You are very hostile and are taking things too personally.

Its just a game. There doesn't have to be a hidden agenda behind everything, jeez.

I think he/she has every right to be a tad upset. Usually in mediums of entertainment (gaming especially), white males are the ones who see the most representation without bias. There may not be a purposeful agenda, persay, but there definitely is subconscious bias in every decision made regarding women, minorities, and in the case of AC, accurate/fair depiction, which Ubisoft has had hits and misses with. I think when you dismiss the outrage that someone feels (it's just a video game), you're attempting to extenuate the substantial impact, no matter how ostensibly miniscule, of prejudice in video games. I also think that you and many others believe that there is a war on white males, and although there is much resentment and anger towards said group for its apparent unwillingness to realize its privilege, it simply isn't true. Both sides need to stop being defensive and learn to understand where the other is coming from by acknowledging discourse.

Of course, it can be very difficult trying to understand those who have little representation, especially when the small amount that they do have is ridden with profligate ignorance and opprobrium.

But derail right? The answer is simple: Adam and Eve are perceived in the way humans would assume they looked like, which, thanks to historical depictions, are two young white people in transparent body suits.

Assassin_M
10-11-2015, 05:17 AM
I think I should be angry that the only representation i'm getting in this series is that of a terrorist who kills people in broad daylight.......But I'm not.

LieutenantRex
10-11-2015, 05:24 AM
I think I should be angry that the only representation i'm getting in this series is that of a terrorist who kills people in broad daylight.......But I'm not.

You're a Syrian-Italian-Mohawk-Mulatto-British-Irish-Surrendering-ex-slave assassin? :cool:

Assassin_M
10-11-2015, 05:24 AM
You're a Syrian-Italian-Mohawk-Mulatto-British-Irish-Ex-slave assassin? :cool:
Half Syrian.

VestigialLlama4
10-11-2015, 08:24 AM
You think ACIII’s story wasn’t one big cliché?

It wasn't entirely a cliche, no. How many stories do you know where you see a son killing his father and be shown as a hero? There's this, and the Game of Thrones books.

There are cliche elements in AC3 but also a bunch of things that hadn't been done or rather tried before.


Ubi couldn’t allow Achilles to be a great Master Assassin - he had to be corrupt hack who loses everything and is a broken man by the beginning of ACIII. They couldn’t allow Adewale to be a fierce warrior who overcame his dark past. He too had to be a corrupt, follower who had somehow forgot the difference between right and wrong.

Well to me, Rogue doesn't exist at all. And even in Rogue, Achilles isn't corrupt at all, and Adewale even less so. They do what Altair and Ezio did, by pure bad luck, they end up being in the wrong, but then I despise earthquake machines. Achilles in AC3 is a real old darling and a genuinely good person.

Besides, you are forgetting Ah Tabai in Black Flag, he's Mayan and he's shown as a great Mentor. The guy who trained Adewale, Mary Read, Achilles and Edward who basically gave the Templars a very hard time in general.


They couldn’t allow us to play as Connor throughout the entire game, they made us play as a white man first so white audiences could have someone to relate to. It's also worth noting that the first ever black person we saw in an AC game who Ubisoft had characters refer to as "The African" was a knob that Ezio offed.

You mean Revelations? There the character is Odai Dunqas and he's called The Guardian, not "The African", I don't know where you got that from. Please consult this
http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Memories_by_ancestor
Transcripts of all missions by character.


Ubisoft want to be inclusive but they can't shake the ingrained perception they have of black people that we are all evil. That's an internal conflict liberals face everyday.

That is sadly true, i.e. about "liberals" not truly being liberal, and I do relate to the frustration that AC's compromised and hypocritical approach to representation being at the top of a very stinky barrel.

I am just trying to be realistic about it that's all. Because otherwise you are just going to be angry all the time and no one will listen to what you have to say.

EmptyCrustacean
10-11-2015, 10:04 AM
You know, people who say Empty makes this place toxic...you're just adding more fuel. Ignore, ignore, ignore. I knew this was a bad idea.

So telling the truth about racism in entertainment media is seen as "toxic" now lol


@ EmptyCrustacean Calm down. You are very hostile and are taking things too personally. Its just a game. There doesn't have to be a hidden agenda behind everything, jeez.

This reaction is eactly what I'm talking about on these forums. Somebody calls out racism and people are more upset at the person who calls it out rather than the racism itself. I'll give it to Ubisoft - they know their fanbase well.

And your whole "it's just a game", again, just shows you don't know what you're talking about - not being able to see propaganda because you think it's just mere entertainment. Propaganda needs to be spread subtly. You have to convince peope that black people are bad through images and videos and news items. You can't just come out and outright say it because we have been conditioned to think that racism is wrong. It's through the images that racism can gradually become more acceptable again so that people won't feel bad when lives of the enemy demographic is taken.


I think I should be angry that the only representation i'm getting in this series is that of a terrorist who kills people in broad daylight.......But I'm not.

Oh my God, not the "I'm a minority and I don't get offended" argument!!! Back in the slave trade you had servants that loved their masters. They are now what we refer to as an 'Uncle Tom'. Just because Uncle Tom didn't care how he was being treated doesn't mean the other black slaves should have been content also.

As I said, entirely predictable comebacks.

LoyalACFan
10-11-2015, 10:14 AM
Can we maybe talk about how this series has had more minority (Western-perspective) protagonists than any other AAA series (which in most cases is exactly zero)?

No...?

Oh, okay then, maybe later

VestigialLlama4
10-11-2015, 10:39 AM
Can we maybe talk about how this series has had more minority (Western-perspective) protagonists than any other AAA series (which in most cases is exactly zero)?

No...?

Oh, okay then, maybe later

Well let's talk about it, AC had Altair, Connor, Adewale, Aveline. So yay team. Altair got the best of this group (Full Game, Additional DLC, two lesser-port side games). Connor got a full game and the longest story DLC of the franchise, while Adewale got a story DLC that was so well liked and respected it became a separate release, likewise with Aveline being far more well liked as a character than her story and gameplay, and actually being far more heavily featured in promotion than even Connor to some extent.

Among white bros, you have Ezio, Haytham, Edward, Arno, Shay. Of the lot Ezio has the Lion's Share. Edward and Arno get full single games. Haytham is the Transmedia Queen, since most of his character comes from a semi-decent boo and Shay is the star of a low-rent fanfiction.

So So definitely there's a sense that Ubisoft is more diverse than it gets credit for and it is valued for that. We only want Ubisoft to do better than what they have done after all. They are a little bit further ahead than other game companies.

EmptyCrustacean
10-11-2015, 10:47 AM
Still not addressing half my post, V? OK then.


It wasn't entirely a cliche, no. How many stories do you know where you see a son killing his father and be shown as a hero? There's this, and the Game of Thrones books. There are cliche elements in AC3 but also a bunch of things that hadn't been done or rather tried before.

I was referring specifically to how it handles race and you know it.


Well to me, Rogue doesn't exist at all.

But it does... so this statement is completely irrelevant.


And even in Rogue, Achilles isn't corrupt at all, and Adewale even less so. They do what Altair and Ezio did, by pure bad luck, they end up being in the wrong, but then I despise earthquake machines. Achilles in AC3 is a real old darling and a genuinely good person.

Achilles not corrupt? He is the main villain in the game :D He's completely corrupt and doesn't realise his mistakes until it's too late. Adewale follows him in his quest which is completely OOC given everything we saw in Freedom Cry and Black Flag. It was a character assassination. In AC1 when Altair messed up the other Assassins turned on him and he was given a second chance. The only reason I suspect we didn't kill Achilles is because we know he goes on to survive in ACIII so that would have spoiled continuity. Achilles, an old darling? Are you having a laugh? In ACIII he is a bitter hack that constantly discourages Connor at every opportunity.


Besides, you are forgetting Ah Tabai in Black Flag, he's Mayan and he's shown as a great Mentor. The guy who trained Adewale, Mary Read, Achilles and Edward who basically gave the Templars a very hard time in general.

I'm not forgetting anything, I just don't agree. Your definition of good POC is being relegated to throw away side characters or being mixed in order to provide "balance" (lol) Most of Shay's main targets in Rogue were non-white (4 if I recall correctly) and the two white characters he assassinated he was regretful of because he was so close to them (loved Hope and Liam was like a brother to him). There were more black people as enemies in Rogue than allies or playable characters in Black Flag and the one that was, however pathetically he was used, we killed off in Rogue.


You mean Revelations? There the character is Odai Dunqas and he's called The Guardian, not "The African", I don't know where you got that from. Please consult this
http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Memories_by_ancestor
Transcripts of all missions by character.

Yes, he is known as the Guardian but in the game they refer to him as 'the African' and you know it so stop twisting lies with the truth.


That is sadly true, i.e. about "liberals" not truly being liberal, and I do relate to the frustration that AC's compromised and hypocritical approach to representation being at the top of a very stinky barrel.

No, you don't, you applaud it! As you have done several times in your posts with you "at least Ubi tried!" and "Aveline, Adewale, Connor etc are better minority characters than others.", "These games are tailor made for a wide (white) audience". Please don't defend the way the non white characters are treated and then turn around and say that it frustrates you. It's disingenous.


I am just trying to be realistic about it that's all.

Nothing that you have said is real. It's you trying to sugarcoat an uncomfortable issue.


Because otherwise you are just going to be angry all the time and no one will listen to what you have to say.

No one will listen to what I say because they don't agree with it. The whole anger thing is just a deflection. What you see as "angry" or "aggressive" I see as passionate. There are people on this forum who have made far more aggressive statements about the game itself (See some of the posts in the "this feeling the game has given me is gone!" thread) but I don't see mods handing out infractions for that.

At the end of the day, I stand up for what's right. Because as a once very handsome half English, half Native American man once said: "No one else will!"

EmptyCrustacean
10-11-2015, 10:58 AM
Well let's talk about it, AC had Altair, Connor, Adewale, Aveline. So yay team. Altair got the best of this group (Full Game, Additional DLC, two lesser-port side games). Connor got a full game and the longest story DLC of the franchise, while Adewale got a story DLC that was so well liked and respected it became a separate release, likewise with Aveline being far more well liked as a character than her story and gameplay, and actually being far more heavily featured in promotion than even Connor to some extent.

- Altair is white.
- Connor is half white "in order to provide balance" and he did NOT get a full game.
- Adewale was relegated to DLC and we had to kill him off when we played as a white Templar in a full game. Who liked Freedom Cry again?
- Aveline is half white and was relegated to Vita and only got put on main consoles due to some demand. And her entire persona (literally) was based on her gender and race.


So So definitely there's a sense that Ubisoft is more diverse than it gets credit for and it is valued for that. We only want Ubisoft to do better than what they have done after all. They are a little bit further ahead than other game companies.

Nobody is saying that Ubisoft isn't more diverse than other triple A titles but you can't have non white characters in order to fill a quota and then portray all of them horribly. Then expect credit just because you included them. To me, that's worse than not having them at all. It comes across as Ubisoft feeling obligated to just throw them in there rather than because they really wanted to make a game with them.

pacmanate
10-11-2015, 12:06 PM
Yeah, this coming from the person who didn't seem to take issue with the slavery joke and was more concerned about me calling it out. Then pretended he/she hadn't seen it and was exposed as lying.

Yes, keep saying i'm pretending (no evidence) and accuse me of lying.

EmptyCrustacean
10-11-2015, 12:22 PM
Yes, keep saying i'm pretending (no evidence) and accuse me of lying.

This is thread where you were exposed: http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1244001-Who-is-the-sexiest-most-attractive-male-protagonist

You gotta love time stamps. Additionally, pacmanate, if you have an issue with me take it to PM.

pacmanate
10-11-2015, 12:27 PM
I don't need to take anything to a PM. Whatever I say on the subject of me being racist and condoning slavery or whatever bullcrap you come up with has more merit than what you will.

1. Because I'm friends with a couple of the mods
2. Because I've been here longer
3. Because I don't pick a fight with everyone on the forums
4. Because everyone here knows I'm not racist

EmptyCrustacean
10-11-2015, 12:30 PM
I don't need to take anything to a PM.

You do because you're hijacking the thread and making it all about you. No one cares.


Whatever I say on the subject of me being racist and condoning slavery or whatever bullcrap you come up with has more merit than what you will.

The thread I just posted says different...


1. Because I'm friends with a couple of the mods

Yes, I figured that out a while back.


2. Because I've been here longer

So being here longer absolves you of being racist??? I'm confused.


3. Because I don't pick a fight with everyone on the forums

Everyone that isn't black, that is.


4. Because everyone here knows I'm not racist

K.

pacmanate
10-11-2015, 12:38 PM
I felt the need to hijack when i saw 2 more pages of your SHlT to other members. You insult practically everyone on here and it's vile.

Shade, please do something

EmptyCrustacean
10-11-2015, 12:50 PM
I felt the need to hijack when i saw 2 more pages of your SHlT to other members. You insult practically everyone on here and it's vile.

Shade, please do something

Explain how I've insulted anybody here? I've engaged in a debate that is on topic and you have come in here screaming that you're not racist, derailing the thread when nobody cares. You say that everybody here knows you're not racist. Ok, cool, so then what's the issue? Who are you trying to convince then?

I avoid you on these forums as I would do someone I felt held unpleasant views in real life. You keep finding opportunities and locating offense in the slightest things I say in order to have a confrontation with me which only proves my theory correct. It's not normal.

You're never going to change my opinion of you, get over it.

LieutenantRex
10-11-2015, 12:53 PM
https://33.media.tumblr.com/1a43aba87eed8a9056ab8c5d08b66552/tumblr_mir5phFyBq1qfjej5o1_r1_500.gif

I don't know who it's going to be, but I know for damn sure that it isn't going to be me.

Journey93
10-11-2015, 01:36 PM
I think he/she has every right to be a tad upset. Usually in mediums of entertainment (gaming especially), white males are the ones who see the most representation without bias. There may not be a purposeful agenda, persay, but there definitely is subconscious bias in every decision made regarding women, minorities, and in the case of AC, accurate/fair depiction, which Ubisoft has had hits and misses with. I think when you dismiss the outrage that someone feels (it's just a video game), you're attempting to extenuate the substantial impact, no matter how ostensibly miniscule, of prejudice in video games. I also think that you and many others believe that there is a war on white males, and although there is much resentment and anger towards said group for its apparent unwillingness to realize its privilege, it simply isn't true. Both sides need to stop being defensive and learn to understand where the other is coming from by acknowledging discourse.

Of course, it can be very difficult trying to understand those who have little representation, especially when the small amount that they do have is ridden with profligate ignorance and opprobrium.

But derail right? The answer is simple: Adam and Eve are perceived in the way humans would assume they looked like, which, thanks to historical depictions, are two young white people in transparent body suits.

But why get angry so much? Its true that white males are very often the protagonists (Be it games, movies, tv shows), but so what?
I'm not white, should I get offended and pissed too?

I think having a good story and characters is what counts in Entertainment the most. I personally care the most about that, not equal representation.
Variety is nice of course but its secondary in my opinion.

VestigialLlama4
10-11-2015, 01:56 PM
- Connor is half white "in order to provide balance" and he did NOT get a full game.

Why because he didn't have three sequences of disposable linear playable cutscenes, like Haytham did? Connor has the largest and most extensive side missions (homestead, Brotherhood, Naval Story, Naval Contracts, Frontiersman Stories, Faction Missions and Kidd Tombs) of any player character, a huge open world and 9 full sequences and the biggest story DLC of any player character. So I don't see how that isn't a full game. Just because it's 9 and not 10 (as for Altair and Arno) doesn't mean it's small by any means.

I agree that they should maybe have reduced Haytham to 1 Sequence and started with Connor in 2 or 3 at latest. But I don't think that makes it less than a full game.


- Adewale was relegated to DLC and we had to kill him off when we played as a white Templar in a full game. Who liked Freedom Cry again?

http://kotaku.com/assassins-creed-ivs-freedom-cry-add-on-is-the-good-ki-1485265925
http://kotaku.com/a-game-that-showed-me-my-own-black-history-1486643518


Nobody is saying that Ubisoft isn't more diverse than other triple A titles but you can't have non white characters in order to fill a quota and then portray all of them horribly. Then expect credit just because you included them. To me, that's worse than not having them at all. It comes across as Ubisoft feeling obligated to just throw them in there rather than because they really wanted to make a game with them.

First of all..."quota", even if we take Liberation into account, you are talking about months of work spent on creating a character, an open world, dialogue and scenes and stuff dedicating to filling a "quota" (which by the way doesn't exist in the gaming world, in case you haven't noticed it's a white picket fence and there is no law asking for minority representations). Ubisoft has nothing to prove by doing this. And by the way they didn't do it because they are liberal or socially conscious, they did it because it seemed cool and interesting and it is. That's all. There's no special thing to making the gaming landscape diverse because life is already like that.


Yes, he is known as the Guardian but in the game they refer to him as 'the African' and you know it so stop twisting lies with the truth.

You were saying that the missions title him that way or that Ezio and his Assassins call him that is not the case at al'l. In any case the dialogue states clearly, http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/The_Guardian,_Part_2
Theodorus: I can take you to the Templar enforcer. He is an African named Dunqas. He is the man in charge of running this racket.
Theodorus: Ah yes, the African gentleman. Y-yes.

How is a Greek Merchant pointing out obvious physical attributes offensive?

I am all in favor of reasoned discussion, using appropriate examples but it has to be free of exaggerations.