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View Full Version : Luthier~1 ......extending MidWay map south



LEXX_Luthor
04-30-2004, 12:15 PM
Before its too late, can blank ocean terrain be added south of Midway map? Basically, put Midway island in the center of the map--by extending ocean map border south and NOT moving Midway north. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

The idea is if one creates a mission for others either offwhine or onwhine, the players will not know where the enemy is.

Not knowing the location of enemy is more realistic (or fun/frightening to play) than historically confining forces to north or west of the island.

Thanks.

LEXX_Luthor
04-30-2004, 12:15 PM
Before its too late, can blank ocean terrain be added south of Midway map? Basically, put Midway island in the center of the map--by extending ocean map border south and NOT moving Midway north. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

The idea is if one creates a mission for others either offwhine or onwhine, the players will not know where the enemy is.

Not knowing the location of enemy is more realistic (or fun/frightening to play) than historically confining forces to north or west of the island.

Thanks.

Ruy Horta
04-30-2004, 12:29 PM
Although you love the 109Z I'll say I fully agree with you on this issue.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

Math Problem post on UBI - Midway position. (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=946103273&r=378101373#378101373)

Ruy Horta

LEXX_Luthor
04-30-2004, 12:31 PM
HOT DOG hijacked into 109Z thread already http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif I ~love~ this almost as much as Willy Messer and his Messer engineers.

DuxCorvan
04-30-2004, 01:04 PM
Yeah, how to make a realistic historical online, if both sides know where to meet?

And here is where Gibbage's PBYs enter for a recon mission, as in real facts... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

- Dux Corvan -
http://www.uploadit.org/DuxCorvan/Altamira2.jpg
Ten thousand years of Cantabrian skinning.

RAAFVirtSqn
05-01-2004, 12:58 AM
Yeah would be good. And if Midway is to be slightly in the realism zone then yes PBY flyable required for sure.

Tintookkie
05-01-2004, 06:15 AM
Very good idea Lexx. Can see some great online games with with it.
cheers Tintookie

Aztek_Eagle
05-02-2004, 01:23 PM
the fighting was in north west from island, u would waste alot of apace by doing that,

http://www.angelfire.com/art2/robertosgallery/CORSAIR8.JPG

LEXX_Luthor
05-02-2004, 03:47 PM
http://www.boardy.de/images/smilies/kopfpatsch.gif

Aztek_Eagle:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>the fighting was in north west from island, u would waste alot of apace by doing that,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Exactly, nobody would expect enemy forces hiding in wasted space, which is why its needed. Midway island needs to be in the center of the map. -- by extending ocean south and enlarging map and NOT moving Midway north to the center while keepin map size the same. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

In simming WAR, simulation of confusion on the part of simmers/simmerettes is more important than simulating the exact map coordinates of every ship and individual aircraft from second to second in time.

Pentallion
05-02-2004, 04:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aztek_Eagle:
the fighting was in north west from island, u would waste alot of apace by doing that,

http://www.angelfire.com/art2/robertosgallery/CORSAIR8.JPG <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You totally miss the whole point. With 20-20 hindsight yes we know where the real battle was fought. But during the fight, neither side knew where the other was at. The winner was the one who found the other first and delivered the fatal blow. If we fly the battle and we already KNOW where the other side is then we've lost EVERYTHING about carrier battles.

We NEED that open space to hide our fleets in so each side has to look and FIND the other fleet in order to launch a strike.

Of all the maps in a Pacific Theater, Midway map is best suited to enlarge enough to make a good online war based on seeking and finding each others carriers then launching strikes at them. All around is water, not a lot of buildings or land to suck up the CPU.

If this map stays as it is, then there is nowhere to put our fleets that the other side won't know how to find way to easily. Where would you hide the Americans? Shall we put them where they were historically? Gee, won't be too hard for the Japanese to find them then will it?

How historical do you think that battle will be? You CAN'T put the ships where they were historically unless you only want to fly the exact strikes carried out in the war and once you've done that a couple times it's 'been there, done that'. A REAL online war would require that neither side know the others location and both sides send out recons to find them.

That is why it is so VITAL that recons be flyable in Pacific Fighters. And that is why it would be a good idea to expand the Midway map.

I know Luthier has done a bang up job on this but he is a modeller not a mission builder and I sincerely hope he listens to the mission builders in this community and strives to make a sim that can be used to recreate the realities of carrier battles in the Pacific.

http://www.simops.com/249th/sigs/Wildcard.jpg

Pentallion
05-03-2004, 05:18 PM
I just remembered something. I am not sure but can't you make a mission then go into the .mis file and change the coordinates so that things could be off map?

Basically, the map DOES go off forever in every direction so if you can alter the .mis file to relocate objects off the map then we wouldn't really need a larger map. At least there would be a workaround.

Does anyone else have any experience with this. It's something I think I read at Ubi but can't find it now.

http://www.simops.com/249th/sigs/Wildcard.jpg

LEXX_Luthor
05-03-2004, 06:21 PM
Yeah that was me. For maps that have sea, beyond the veil lies infinite ocean and its playable.

Don't know if it works for internet FB.

WereSnowleopard
05-04-2004, 09:21 PM
I was thinking about had hearing strict radio silence to aviod give their poistion away and alert enemy of it's doing. Should we have air controller to alert us if they heard enemy talk on radio and tell their poistion to have us foward to target. What do you thinking?
Also carrier always moving around so we have to to depend on navigator/radio system and skill to guide us back to "home" Also if we have to force to ditch plane into sea, may radio notify navy to send rescue plane or submarine to pick us up. That may will show result in end of game to see if we had rescued or captured or bust?

sugaki
05-05-2004, 11:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>You totally miss the whole point. With 20-20 hindsight yes we know where the real battle was fought. But during the fight, neither side knew where the other was at. The winner was the one who found the other first and delivered the fatal blow. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's true, but the fact is, why would you want to have recon missions scanning south or south west when you already know there's going to be nothing there? You already know the outcome, and it'd wouldn't be fun from a gaming perspective.

Or if you propose the ships to randomly appear in different places, then historacity is sacrificed. Not saying that that's bad per se, but if it goes against the dev team's vision then having the SW portion of the map's unnecessary.

As a fighter pilot player, I could care less really, as it's only adding more water to fight over http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I'd want to have one huge map of the pacific personally, but that's just me ...and that's pretty improbable to see in the game.

-Aki

Pentallion
05-06-2004, 01:49 AM
Like I said, after you fly the historically correct mission a couple times you're pretty much done with it. Been there done that.

But once you randomly move the fleets around it becomes much more historically SIMULATED because you DON'T know where the enemy is just like the original people didn't. Then it becomes that race to find and hit the enemy first.

Any online war worth its while would not want to simply go along recreating every battle flawlessly down to the last ship sunk. I sure wouldn't want to fly in one that did. The whole spirit of competition means we would have to move the ships elsewhere and make each battle a whole new ballgame.

http://www.simops.com/249th/sigs/Wildcard.jpg

michapma
05-06-2004, 03:08 AM
While there are some good thoughts in this thread, a couple of key points seem to be overlooked:

1) This would HAVE to be done online. The AI require fixed waypoints, and the largest number of AI you can practically command is a group of 4. There can be no offline missions with recon and then sending the strike forces all in the same mission. This could only be done online.

2) Most online pilots whom I've observed want to jump right into the action. They don't want to sit around waiting for recon aircraft to spot the enemy before they launch. This would only be possible in a COOP if the players agreed to the mission format. I think there would be few who would have the patience to wait on PBYs (if enough were had) to cover a radius of over 200 miles in every direction.

Then the strike force would have to fly the 200 or so miles to the carrier force, this is like navigating from Leningrad to Helsinki by heading with no landmarks and hope you spot the enemy carrier force. Realistically, the carrier force should not fire at the enemy aircraft until they are sure they have been spotted.

I believe radar only started picking even large ships up at ranges of less than 50 miles. That's why aircraft were used. Because of the recon element, carrier battles spanned hours. The longest COOP I've ever been in was between one and a half and two hours.

At Midway, the US naval commanders did know the Japanese plan of attack. This allowed them to strike first, although recon was of course needed to exactly pinpoint the fleet location, and the battle depended on more than just that. (The dive bombers that did a lot of the important damage almost didn't find the fleet.) But the direction of the approach was known, due to the ability of US intelligence to intercept Japan's encrypted messages. You have to add the intelligence and guesswork of the command into the equation. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif So a realistic, historical situation doesn't involve sending out recon in a 360 degrees pattern.

Here's an interesting link:
http://www.combinedfleet.com/map.htm

However, I agree that non-historical scenarios could prove quite interesting for online play, if players were willing to invest several hours into a mission, and the maps were big enough.

http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/Image_Archive/badges/69giap_badge_chap.jpg (http://giap.webhop.info)

The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/) | Forgotten Skies (http://www.forgottenskies.com/)
But we are all that way: when we know a thing we have only scorn for other people who don't happen to know it. - Mark Twain, Personal Recollections of Joan of Arc

LEXX_Luthor
05-06-2004, 08:11 AM
michapma:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>There can be no offline missions with recon and then sending the strike forces all in the same mission.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Isolated missions only -- you "overlook" our ability to make multiple Dynamic mission generator. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

3rd Party can write a program that reads eventlog file. Now, the eventlog records events like a recon aircraft getting shot down by a naval carrier aircraft--thus a way of recording a carrier force spotting. The next mission generated has strike force launched toward the enemy's position...interesting random stuff can be programed into the mission generator such as waypoints of enemy ships changing direction, or aircraft waypoints not going exactly to the predicted (by basic math) future position -- kinda simulating a formation getting lost.

DuxCorvan
05-06-2004, 08:16 AM
Well, recon missions wouldn't be that pain if flyable Gibbage's PBYs make into the game. Also, they wouldn't have to wait that long: either the enemy fleet is located or not, the Japanese invasion fleet will head for Midway and will arrive there if no one avoids it. Previously there will be a lot of work there for Japanese bombers and escorts, and the Buffalos in Midway.

It's not a 'forever' battle: in this 'mouse and rat' game, clock runs against US interests.

There will be plenty action sooner or later, and Midway map is not so huge.

- Dux Corvan -
http://www.uploadit.org/DuxCorvan/Altamira2.jpg
Ten thousand years of Cantabrian skinning.

owlwatcher
05-06-2004, 12:28 PM
Still want a larger map.
With a aircraft carrier you will have a moving battle field. The Aircraftcarrier will have alot of influence on game play. You must give the CVs their space for good mission building without need for 3RD Party stuff.
Japs. launch at 300 miles to target.
Yanks at 200 miles to target.
PBYs search to 700 miles out.

More rambling
The aircraftcarrier needs or will demand more space for good mission building.
CAP will be needed at all times. Online play of having to defend and attack CVs to win should be interesting.

A search Phase introduced. Large map by itself?!?

I think that one battle(online or offline) with spawning and closing the distance between Task Forces could run for hours till a CV was sunk.

Maybe DeaD Time (no combat) could be speeded up with a ingame program thus enjoying the;
" The Hunt for the Lexington".
The seaching aspect a "Search Phase" would give the flavor of the Pacfic.Maybe just having a updating search report. From planes ships,subs and coas****chers.
Just ideas

Pentallion
05-06-2004, 01:04 PM
I know, the search is 3/4ths the battle. And on top of that the Japanese have longer strike ranges so the Americans have to slip in closer to hit the Japanese, putting them at a big disadvantage right there.

All of this is lost, of course, if we have dinky little maps and no flyable search planes.

And Michapma, you are wrong about what players want from an online war. Only VEF and IOW are for the get in, get out quick crowd. The old DID, the original Iron Skies, and the current online campaign, Forgotten Skies all are about long, immersive online experiences. No instant gratification but instead a more immersive environment that starts in the HQ at the website with mission briefings and strategy planning and ends with missions where you never know what will happen.

FBWL will also be more of a long immersive kind of experience if it is anything like the wildly popular RBWL that is it's inspiration.

Iron Skies Malta would provide the same experience as well but for one simple fact:

We don't have a map large enough to simulate it.

So we have missions that are more wham, bam, thank you maam than we'd prefer to have. And it is not nearly as satisfying as the earlier Iron Skies but we are counting on the patch to come out soon and if it fixes online stability issues we will be able to go with the FinGulf map instead of the dinky Kotka map. At which point, players can expect to fly quite a ways just to reach the action in many missions. And we can expect to put much more into each mission to improve immersiveness.

Hundreds of people fly in these kinds of online wars and prefer it to the instant gratification of a quick in and out mission.

http://www.simops.com/249th/sigs/Wildcard.jpg