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View Full Version : Were the Borgias true Templars?



Smithies89
10-07-2015, 03:52 PM
Rodrigo and Cesare didnt seem to care much for Templar ideals

True Templars believe we are creatures of chaos and want to bring about world peace by having absolute control

Where as Rodrigo and Cesare seemed only interested in making themselves more powerful

D.I.D.
10-07-2015, 04:10 PM
Rodrigo didn't magically become Pope through his own ambition. The whole Templar movement worked together to ensure he'd be voted in by the Cardinals. Since there was not yet a country of Italy, just a loose collection of vaguely allied provinces, to have a Templar Pope was to hold a position like a Roman Emperor - politically the de facto ruler of what we call Italy today, and beyond that the chief of an imperial religion.

Rodrigo scolded Cesare for deviating from the plan for his own ends, and that's why Cesare killed him. They're all Templars, though.

Locopells
10-07-2015, 04:22 PM
Short answer, no. The Borgia era is referred to as something like 'the Dark Age' in ACR's multiplayer files, as a time when the order lost it's focus and concentrated on personal power.

Hans684
10-07-2015, 04:25 PM
No such thing. They are corrupt Templars, fighting for themselves. Seeking power and domination at all costs, which is far removed from their original noble motive.The word you should have used instead of "true Templars" is Dedicated Templar visionaries.

cawatrooper9
10-07-2015, 04:48 PM
Well, this is essentially the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.
The Borgia were Templars, it's explicitly stated. However, they may not have been totally aligned with the Templars goals.
But that doesn't make them any less Templar, it just makes their goals more selfish.

Take Arno, for instance. He was a true Assassin in the Brotherhood for a while. Then, he broke the Brotherhood's trust. He was not considered to be a true Assassin then, because the Council explicitly stripped him of that rank (as I remember, I haven't played Unity all that much to be honest). So, by doing so, their authority (as the Councul, who also bestowed him the rank in the first place) Arno was no longer a true Assassin.

As far as I know, no one officially "excommunicated" the Borgia from the Templar Order.

But in the end, it's honestly all just semantics.

booty_fiend
10-08-2015, 12:31 AM
yes, they were considered templars. no, they were not templars in their ambitions or ideologies.

there's a reason the borgia's era of preeminence is considered to be the dark age of the templar order.

HDinHB
10-08-2015, 05:08 AM
Cesare excommunicated Rodrigo, and Ezio excommunicated Cesare.


Calling it the "dark ages" is a retcon by modern Templars. If Rodrigo had succeeded, they would be hailing him as the greatest Templar that ever lived.

VestigialLlama4
10-08-2015, 08:05 AM
Cesare excommunicated Rodrigo, and Ezio excommunicated Cesare.


Calling it the "dark ages" is a retcon by modern Templars. If Rodrigo had succeeded, they would be hailing him as the greatest Templar that ever lived.

Yeah. Rodrigo Borgia acts pretty much the way all later Templars acts, it's just that there's less of a pretense with him, that's why I respect the guy on a fundamental level in a way I don't respect Haytham and all the other benevolent despots deluded freaks.

Borgia kills the hero's father, but goes the extra distance to kill his brothers too. Even Noble Templars like Prince Ahmet target Ezio's girlfriend and they even go ahead with killing her even after Ezio honors his side of the deal. Borgia is corrupt and entirely self-serving, hello Woodes Rogers, Charles Lee and Palailogos. Borgia likes to create chaos, well Haytham started the Boston massacre and Torres massacred the Taino. There's also Germain in Unity who dresses in a Rodrigo Borgia Hood so obviously that guy clearly sees Pope Alexander VI as a role model in terms of fashion. Actually on some level Borgia is fundamentally superior morally to the other Templars. He's basically a corrupt Pope but he also learns his lesson and humility at the end of AC2. Later Templars are slaveowners, dictators and colonialist racists. Participants on oppression far worse than Borgia is.

One thing that is quite hilarious on the part of Ubisoft and Abstergo in terms of the various issues Ubisoft tackle is the fact that the real Rodrigo Borgia was a pope of great religious tolerance. He allowed Jews to settle in Rome without any persecution or pressure to convert, and this after Spain and Portugal kicked out their Jewish population. Yet when you come to Black Flag, Abstergo puts this "Great Men of History" with Rordrigo being some kind of family values guy. All they have to do is mention this real-world fact and the Assassins and Ezio look like anti-semites. But obviously Ubisof won't do that at all, since none of that is mentioned or acknowledged in the game.

I-Like-Pie45
10-08-2015, 08:14 AM
well thats probably just because most of them were probably templars as well

trust me

i'm german

we know the truth

Locopells
10-08-2015, 11:28 AM
Calling it the "dark ages" is a retcon by modern Templars. If Rodrigo had succeeded, they would be hailing him as the greatest Templar that ever lived.

Well of course they would. History written by the victors and all that...

D.I.D.
10-08-2015, 12:28 PM
All they have to do is mention this real-world fact and the Assassins and Ezio look like anti-semites. But obviously Ubisof won't do that at all, since none of that is mentioned or acknowledged in the game.

They should have acknowledged that fact, although it's not quite a simple as Rodrigo Borgia being the original Cool Pope. It was politically expedient to make that policy, and the existence of the policy doesn't mean that if you hit this Pope you were directly or indirectly attacking Jewish people. Besides, the Assassins didn't kill him; Ezio fought him without weapons, and then let him live.

VestigialLlama4
10-08-2015, 12:55 PM
...the existence of the policy doesn't mean that if you hit this Pope you were directly or indirectly attacking Jewish people.

In theory you are right. But in practise it does give that impression especially since Brotherhood doesn't feature the famous Jewish Quarter of Rome, which existed at the time. In fact there is a considerable case to be made for the Assassins being crypto-antisemites.

In Unity, they supported King Philip IV in purging the Templars. His chief prosecutor Guillaume de Nogaret is the Assassin Mentor. King Philip IV was one of the first (of many) French kings who tried to expel Jews from France and he also stole their property. And if the Mentor of the Assassins was his chief lackey then that surely implies that the Assassins supported this action. Likewise, the French Revolution was the first anti-racist revolution and within the game, the fact that Robespierre supported equal rights for Jews and other minorities is not mentioned because it would demolish its counter-revolutionary perspective, since the Assassins are openly royalist and reactionary. Of course the balance is that Revelations has a positive view of the Ottoman Empire which at that time was a safe haven for Jewish exiles and Arno pals around with Napoleon who did a great deal to de-ghettoize Jews across Europe.

I am just saying that all of these implications and narrative choices become issues because the Assassins are supposed to stand with social outsiders and nobody were bigger outsiders at this time than Jews and it's weird that its European games (Ezio trilogy and UNITY) don't acknowledge the antisemitism that was a key part of this time, especially when it directly connected and intersected with the story, setting, historical figures and the events we see. It's bizarre that the only Synagogue we see is in AC1's Jerusalem section, and that it took till Syndicate for us to have Jewish characters (Benjamin Disraeli and Karl Marx).

Maybe it's because Ubisoft is after all a French and French-Canadian corporation and it's easier for them to make games about America and the New World, and point out the racism slavery and genocide that was part of its history (as we see in Black Flag and AC3) but harder for them to think of Europe has having those same things, because they think of Europe and see monuments and stuff. Europeans in general, and the French in particular, are not as comfortable in acknowledging or dealing with its dark past the way Americans are.

D.I.D.
10-08-2015, 01:03 PM
Yeah, true. It would be a terrible idea to have a Jewish protagonist in an AC game that highlights Jewish persecution (given that the image of a cunning Jew who creeps around in the shadows, poisons people, and stabs non-Jews in the back might... um... do more harm than good), but since they can't do that then they certainly should do more to represent anti-Jewish persecution in their game worlds.

VestigialLlama4
10-08-2015, 01:16 PM
(given that the image of a cunning Jew who creeps around in the shadows, poisons people, and stabs non-Jews in the back might... um... do more harm than good),

Well, if they ever go to First Century Israel during the Roman occupation, you can use these guys (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicarii). Dagger wielding Jewish rebels who stabbed with hidden blades and blended and escaped the crowd, in fact Ubisoft's Assassins are closer to the Sicarii then they are to the historical Asasiyun. Of course Ubisoft would never go there, it's too close to the Jesus era (and so stepping on toes of religious controversy) and they have already done that setting in AC1.

But showing Jews as assassins and organized criminals is not so much their stereotype (it's the overal stereotype for any poor underclass migrant). Showing them as bankers and moneylenders is their true stereotype and a rather nasty one too. But ubisoft is guilty of the other stereotype which is not showing them and in general many medieval stories and settings ignore this as if this was only a problem around the time World War II came up.


Yeah, true. It would be a terrible idea to have a Jewish protagonist in an AC game that highlights Jewish persecution... but since they can't do that then they certainly should do more to represent anti-Jewish persecution in their game worlds.

As the local SJW on this thread, I wouldn't go so far as to say that Ubisoft should represent this issue specifically over others but rather merely show it in the background, that this happened and it kept happening and at least showing it when it applies and is relevant to that period in terms of general issues concering plot, character and setting, as it was in Brotherhood and Unity.

SixKeys
10-08-2015, 01:43 PM
Like Cawatrooper said, the question is a No True Scotsman fallacy. The Borgias definitely worked towards the Templar goal of subjugating the masses through complete control. That fact doesn't change just because modern Templars may not agree with their methods. At least Rodrigo was definitely a Templar, I don't think Cesare or Lucrezia ever claimed to be though. Cesare seemed to be humoring his old man as long as it suited his own purposes.

Travis1232018
04-24-2018, 01:49 PM
I've heard that assasin's creed might be based on true events, but I'm not entirely sure it's true. Just asking out of curiosity. Thanks!
Also, I realize the crusades and templars are real, but what about the names, assasins guild, and the assasination targets? are they real?:eek:

Travis1232018
04-25-2018, 08:42 AM
I found an interesting article on this theme http://theconversation.com/alt-right-claims-to-march-in-step-with-the-knights-templar-this-is-fake-history-88103 the article says that this is a fake story:nonchalance:

cawatrooper9
04-27-2018, 02:23 PM
I've heard that assasin's creed might be based on true events, but I'm not entirely sure it's true. Just asking out of curiosity. Thanks!
Also, I realize the crusades and templars are real, but what about the names, assasins guild, and the assasination targets? are they real?:eek:

Hey Travis1232018,

Like any historical fiction, Assassin's Creed draws some inspiration from some history, while taking creative liberty with other aspects of its narrative.

If you're interested in learning some of the historical inspiration behind the games, I might suggest two places to start:

First, the novel Alamut (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alamut_(Bartol_novel))- itself historical fiction, but also the literature that heavily inspired the traditions of the Assassins in these games.


Second, you can check out some of the real life history of the Assassins (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassins).

There's so much referenced history in the series at this point, so it's really a big rabbit hole to go down, but these are two great starting places. Enjoy!

MageAquarius20
05-03-2018, 05:24 PM
Well we have to decide what makes a Templar a Templar, in order to understand it better. If being templar means, you canīt kill innocent people and must bring always order or if a Templar means you donīt care for morals and fight for the "Greater Good". In the first Case, it would be only a fallacy, if the requirements of being a Templar is not being good.You canīt be a enviroment activist, while supporting Nuclear Energy, you canīt be a Pacifist who fights, you canīt be a Assassin, if you donīt follow the Creed. There are Rules you have to obey in all of these Organizations and if you donīt do it, you are exempt from this organization and can be deemed as Heretic and no true member o it.

It would be only fallacious if the crimes the people comitted were in line with thier Creed or not having any laws against comitting said Crimes.

Would you consider a President a president, even if he doesnīt do anything for his Country by just sitting there and letting his people decide or a Mother, a true Mother, who doesnīt even raise itīs Child? No you donīt.

But if the latter is true and most certianly it is, then Rodrico is just as much a Templar as the Apathetic Haytham is.

cawatrooper9
05-03-2018, 07:39 PM
Well we have to decide what makes a Templar a Templar, in order to understand it better. If being templar means, you canīt kill innocent people and must bring always order or if a Templar means you donīt care for morals and fight for the "Greater Good".


It is definitely hard to decide exactly what makes a "true" Templar.

They do have three tenets, not unlike the Assassins, which can kind of help in identifying their values.


Uphold the principles of our order and all that for which we stand

Never share our secrets nor divulge in the true nature of our work

Do so until death, whatever the cost

You might notice that these are actually just reworded versions of the Assassin tenets, in some cases more vague. For instance, while the first Assassin tenet specifically instructs the brotherhood to not harm innocents, the first tenet of the Templar's code tells them to... uphold their own principles. Unfortunately, we don't have a real concrete view of what those principles really are..