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Smithies89
10-07-2015, 06:41 AM
Connor seems to be a pretty polarising character but I don't see anyone defending Arno so does he have any fans here or is he universally despised?

DumbGamerTag94
10-07-2015, 06:50 AM
I liked Arno.

I-Like-Pie45
10-07-2015, 07:09 AM
i have no time for cheese eating surrender monkeys in my life

Journey93
10-07-2015, 01:58 PM
I don't, he sucks and is probably the worst protagonist of the series.

SixKeys
10-07-2015, 02:12 PM
I think he's just okay. He had some genuine charm at the beginning which was then quickly tossed aside and he became rather boring. I do like the way he sometimes takes the p*ss out of the French brotherhood who are pompous and stuck in tradition. His voice-acting was good regardless of his personality.

cawatrooper9
10-07-2015, 02:27 PM
I don't dislike him... he was simply forgettable for me.
Which is a shame, because Ubisoft really wanted to make him the next Ezio, and he ended up rather flat.

Smithies89
10-07-2015, 03:48 PM
How about Shay?

I found him quite disapointing as I was hoping he was going to be a stone cold villain who truly believed in absolute Templar controll, ruthlessly hunting assassins and killing anyone who got in his way with no remorse

Journey93
10-07-2015, 03:52 PM
How about Shay?

I found him quite disapointing as I was hoping he was going to be a stone cold villain who truly believed in absolute Templar controll, ruthlessly hunting assassins and killing anyone who got in his way with no remorse

Yep me too. His transition from Assassin to Templar felt contrived and awkward. I really didn't like Rogue's story.
They tried to make the Assassins too much like ****s and Shay as a character wasn't really believable.

We should have gotten a game about Haytham instead. Now that would have been great.

cawatrooper9
10-07-2015, 04:52 PM
How about Shay?

I found him quite disapointing as I was hoping he was going to be a stone cold villain who truly believed in absolute Templar controll, ruthlessly hunting assassins and killing anyone who got in his way with no remorse

Really? I liked his transition- he was a very likable character for me, perhaps the most likable protagonist in the series (sorry Ezio, I never truly loved you). I do wish that he had turned a little colder near the end, though (though I guess he kinda does in the epilogue).



We should have gotten a game about Haytham instead. Now that would have been great.
That's the AC game I've always wanted. Well, that and a dozen other pipe dreams.

GunnerGalactico
10-07-2015, 05:40 PM
I kinda like Arno. I thought he was alright, but not great. He was likeable at the beginning of the game, but as I progressed through the main campaign, he became less interesting. Most of his interactions with Elise didn't do much for me. However, his VA did manage to salvage somewhat of the character for me.

terroAssassin
10-07-2015, 05:53 PM
Arno was cool not the best but not among the bad assassin protagonists like Edward or Shay

D.I.D.
10-07-2015, 06:01 PM
He was pretty good, but really none of the characters (aside from the Marquis de Sade) won their scenes, and too many of them didn't even get their names established. A good start, as Six Keys said, and flashes of something great at times. If the love story had been convincing, he would have gained a lot.

He was never meant to be iconic, I guess. He's better than Shay and Altair by some margin. His main problem is that he doesn't feel like he's part of his environment. Everyone else has been a believable product of their background: Altair, Ezio, and Aveline all seemed like locals to their home environments, Connor and his forest home complemented each other, Adéwalé's background had clearly shaped him, and Edward was 100% in the pirate life. Arno only had any roots in Versailles until the death of his foster father. After that, he doesn't even feel like he's French, let alone Parisian: like an alien in his own world, and lacking sufficient connection to the Assassins either. Nothing matters to him, and he matters to nothing else.

Aphex_Tim
10-07-2015, 06:28 PM
How about Shay?

I found him quite disapointing as I was hoping he was going to be a stone cold villain who truly believed in absolute Templar controll, ruthlessly hunting assassins and killing anyone who got in his way with no remorse

I've never been more annoyed by an AC character.
"I maek mah ehrn luck!"

Arno was okay, I want to like him, but he was just kind of forgettable.

Hans684
10-07-2015, 06:41 PM
How about Shay?

I found him quite disapointing as I was hoping he was going to be a stone cold villain who truly believed in absolute Templar controll, ruthlessly hunting assassins and killing anyone who got in his way with no remorse

Clearly things isn't as black and white then.

Xstantin
10-07-2015, 06:44 PM
He was allright.

I-Like-Pie45
10-07-2015, 06:46 PM
to be french is no pride

the blood of all the dead from the second world war is directly attributed to their hands

Journey93
10-07-2015, 06:51 PM
I've never been more annoyed by an AC character.
"I maek mah ehrn luck!"

Arno was okay, I want to like him, but he was just kind of forgettable.

Yeah his catchphrase was even worse than Connor's ("WHERE'S CHALES LEEEE)

TimeLock09
10-07-2015, 06:57 PM
I dont. He's boring and forgettable, Unlike Connor who had personality despite people say he's too "whiney" People will remember AC3 because of Connor. And people remember Unity for shedloads of bugs and glitches with a baaaaad story that didn't go anywhere and was completly pointless and baaaaad characters and an ezio clone with the personality of a cardboard box.

Hans684
10-07-2015, 07:10 PM
Yeah his catchphrase was even worse than Connor's ("WHERE'S CHALES LEEEE)

It has a meaning, unlike Connor's obsession and blind hatred.

Assassin_M
10-07-2015, 11:59 PM
I thought he was the best thing about Unity's story. Not that this is a compliment, but I liked him a lot.

HDinHB
10-08-2015, 01:07 AM
I think he's just okay. He had some genuine charm at the beginning which was then quickly tossed aside and he became rather boring. I do like the way he sometimes takes the p*ss out of the French brotherhood who are pompous and stuck in tradition. His voice-acting was good regardless of his personality.

Pretty much this. I felt like he was someone you could like, but the story was so meh that you didn't really get to know him well enough.

terroAssassin
10-08-2015, 01:28 AM
I like the ezio model of protagonists but arno was like they took the template and just said well I guess its good enough
Jacob seems cool in a not so try hard way whereas Arno had so many informed qualities and his romance with elise kinda hurt him

RVSage
10-08-2015, 01:56 AM
He was not a bad character, personally i feel we did not see too much of his character, in Unity's short story. We saw glimpses of charm, righteousness. Everything about him was in glimpses, nothing was shown in-depth , except maybe his love for Elise.

LoyalACFan
10-08-2015, 03:30 AM
Pretty much what Six Keys said. He was alright, I don't really like or dislike him. He was just kinda... ehh I don't even really know how to describe him, he was just sort of forgettable. Well acted, though, I didn't have a problem with Jeanotte's performance.

Shay, though, was pretty bad. It's like he never actually developed his own convictions or took ownership of his actions. I mean, the Assassins were pretty f***ing reprehensible in Shay's time, but he never really outgrows his "reluctant traitor" phase until after the sudden 15-year time jump at the end. He was never a convincing Templar, he was just a mopey bastard with a really obnoxious catchphrase.

booty_fiend
10-08-2015, 04:04 AM
he was a french ezio to me, and as such, i didn't like or dislike him (i didn't like ezio as much as others, but didn't dislike him like some haters either). though, he didn't have as much character as ezio.

he was just... an avatar i used in-game rather than a character i enjoyed.

D.I.D.
10-08-2015, 05:30 AM
I mean, the Assassins were pretty f***ing reprehensible in Shay's time

Well... they're not, are they? I kind of wish they had been, and they should be from time to time (and a game where you're not an assassin is the ideal time to do it), but the Assassins simply didn't know the harm they were doing. As soon as they knew the truth, Achilles stopped it. Really, it's Shay's fault that it took so long for the message to get through - he threw a huge strop before anybody could have a sensible conversation (and the others did try!), he believed the Templars when they told him the Assassins were going to poison everyone in New York (which made no sense and was an obvious lie), and when the penny finally dropped that he'd been misled he didn't try to get a message to the Assassins.

HDinHB
10-08-2015, 06:07 AM
Well... they're not, are they? I kind of wish they had been, and they should be from time to time (and a game where you're not an assassin is the ideal time to do it), but the Assassins simply didn't know the harm they were doing.

That's my recollection, and I just finished playing a couple weeks ago. I don't remember thinking how reprehensible the Assassin's were. Achilles should have listened to Shay earlier, but he was a hard-headed SOB and we knew that already. The way Shay turned not only on the Assassin's but his BFF nearly overnight was incredible.

LoyalACFan
10-08-2015, 07:11 AM
As soon as they knew the truth, Achilles stopped it. Really, it's Shay's fault that it took so long for the message to get through - he threw a huge strop before anybody could have a sensible conversation (and the others did try!), he believed the Templars when they told him the Assassins were going to poison everyone in New York (which made no sense and was an obvious lie), and when the penny finally dropped that he'd been misled he didn't try to get a message to the Assassins.

Except they also used bloodthirsty drug-manufacturing street gangs to consolidate their control. Of course they weren't deliberately leveling cities, they weren't psychopaths. But the whole street gang connection was pretty friggin shady. With the exception of Adewale, the Assassins definitely felt like bastards to me. Especially Hope and the French guy.

I-Like-Pie45
10-08-2015, 07:22 AM
I never took you for a misogynist.

Hans684
10-08-2015, 12:34 PM
Well... they're not, are they? I kind of wish they had been, and they should be from time to time (and a game where you're not an assassin is the ideal time to do it), but the Assassins simply didn't know the harm they were doing.

Oh they knew, their extremist and corrupt Asssassins using the Creed as a policy of aggression and unrestricted power. It's an unique perspective only Rogue has dealt with, it's been used in other games but never been a focus. Rogue is about the extremism and fanaticism of the Creed, blind following and the use of the Creed as a policy of aggression and unrestricted power. Shay lives up to the Creed by questioning everything, even the Templars at times. And since it's a Templar game it deals with the Templar principles, goals and how they work.

D.I.D.
10-08-2015, 12:48 PM
Except they also used bloodthirsty drug-manufacturing street gangs to consolidate their control. Of course they weren't deliberately leveling cities, they weren't psychopaths. But the whole street gang connection was pretty friggin shady. With the exception of Adewale, the Assassins definitely felt like bastards to me. Especially Hope and the French guy.

But we don't see that happen either. As Leonardo said in the first game to feature poison, one amount is medicine and a greater one is a poison. For all we know the Assassins are manufacturing the poison they need for their weapons (which Shay himself used on people) and selling the remainder as a medicine.

I guess it was good to see the gangs in a different way than they've been presented until now. We were always shown them as lovable rogues with hearts of gold. Even Ezio would happily steal from poor people just to win a bet against another thief, and we were supposed to cheer for him.

I can't remember anything bad about Hope at all. It seemed particularly puzzling that Shay was so mad with her. I remember feeling angry with Shay that he was wrecking yet another opportunity to talk. I can't remember which French guy you meant (I played Rogue once, and that will probably never happen again). If they were going to be shown as bad, I wanted them much more vicious than they were.


Oh they knew, their extremist and corrupt Asssassins using the Creed as a policy of aggression and unrestricted power. It's an unique perspective only Rogue has dealt with, it's been used in other games but never been a focus. Rogue is about the extremism and fanaticism of the Creed, blind following and the use of the Creed as a policy of aggression and unrestricted power. Shay lives up to the Creed by questioning everything, even the Templars at times. And since it's a Templar game it deals with the Templar principles, goals and how they work.

Yeah, in theory, but in practice Ubisoft didn't want to hurt its Assassin brand and (understandably) they didn't want to make a game where it's bad guys vs bad guys.

The Assassins are not extremists in this game, and nor are they corrupt. They're led by a very kindly mentor. There's no evidence of unrestricted power. The Templars have almost all the power in the world, as usual.

All that happens is that Achilles makes a mistake of thinking that all PoEs must be kept out of Templar hands, without realising that some should not be moved. Even after the calamity in Lisbon, Achilles wasn't there to see that the tremors started the instant the device was taken. Shay was, but rather than have a discussion, he was all "LALALALA CAN'T HEAR YOU, JUMPING OUT THE WINDOW NOW, KTHX BAI". The moment Achilles is there in person and finally gets that conversation, he capitulates immediately.

A bit of a waste of this scenario.

Hans684
10-08-2015, 02:44 PM
For all we know the Assassins are manufacturing the poison they need for their weapons.

And to use on the colonial authority, it will result in casualties among the the people.


Which Shay himself used on people.

Animus Glitch, he never killed innocents. Except for the earthquake he started.


And selling the remainder as a medicine.

Speculation. Plus considering that his Brotherhood is corrupt and extremist it does't make sense either, they are oppressing and terrorizing the colonies. They don't care about the people.


Yeah, in theory, but in practice Ubisoft didn't want to hurt its Assassin brand and (understandably) they didn't want to make a game where it's bad guys vs bad guys.

Liberation and Unity, both games has both orders being ****ed up.


The Assassins are not extremists in this game, and nor are they corrupt.

- Use of gangs to terrorize the Colonies. Check
- Attempt at gassing the Colonies. Check
- Attack on native villages. Check
- Fanatics blindly following their Mentor and Creed. Check
- Attack on surrendering soldiers. Check

Seeing as Shay is the most humane and empathetic protagonist so far there are all reasons he'd end up turning on them either way.


They're led by a very kindly mentor.

A calm Mentor with anger issues that's a fanatic blindly following his Creed while leading a Brotherhood with gangs controlled by Assassins all over the Colonies, an Assassin navy and the Assassins themselves. Yet the expected to find a AOE in the Temples and "will not let anyone destroy what they have build!"


There's no evidence of unrestricted power.

Explain his Brotherhood and complete disregard to the Creed then.


The Templars have almost all the power in the world, as usual.

We are talking about the Colonial Templars, others are irrelevant to the case. They wasn't founded until Haytham arrived, however Achillies Brotherhood had been striving with little resistance. So they where far more powerful.


All that happens is that Achilles makes a mistake of thinking that all PoEs must be kept out of Templar hands, without realising that some should not be moved.

True but hardly the only bad thing he did.


Even after the calamity in Lisbon, Achilles wasn't there to see that the tremors started the instant the device was taken. Shay was, but rather than have a discussion, he was all "LALALALA CAN'T HEAR YOU, JUMPING OUT THE WINDOW NOW, KTHX BAI". The moment Achilles is there in person and finally gets that conversation, he capitulates immediately.

Shay has all the right to be mad, starting an earthquake and watching a city full of worthless people die [because clearly the Assassins matters more] and could have died himself is something to get mad over. Saying this isn't good, then you might as well say Ezio wanting revenge over the murder of his father and brothers isn't good enough or that Connor being strangled by an ugly unstable racist ******* isn't a good reason either. He was traumatized and willing to kill himself before killing them, if it meant saving the world. As for the discussions, before the earthquake.


http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Lessons_and_Revelations
Achilles: Tell me what happened, old friend.
Adéwalé: It was terrible, Achilles. The ground shook, and the ocean waves crashed over Port-au-Prince...
Achilles: How many were lost?
Adéwalé: Thousands. No family was left untouched.
Achilles: I hate to bring up practical matters at a time like this, but did Mackandal's man complete his task before the earthquake hit?
Adéwalé: I cannot know. Vendredi has not been found. He was a strong Maroon, one of Mackandal's best students.
Achilles: Such a shame. So we cannot know if he found the site.
Adéwalé: Indeed. But if there was a temple under the waves, I doubt it is still standing.
Achilles: And the artifacts that showed the way?
Adéwalé: Stolen. The Templars broke in during the chaos. They seized the Manuscript and Precursor box. I gave chase on the sea, but lost their trail when they reached New York.

Alright, fair enough. First earthquake has happened and he don't know what had happened. So naturally he will continue the search, memories later...


http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Kyrie_Eleison
Achilles: Given your present knowledge of the site, this duty falls upon you. You understand what must be done?
Shay: Find the Precursor Temple and retrieve the Piece of Eden.
Hope: We finally obtained a ship for crossing the ocean. Have no worries, I will keep the Morrigan safe in New York.
Shay: Thank you. Liam and I will leave straight away.
Achilles: Liam is unavailable at present. Your crew and ship await. Be careful, Shay. Pieces of Eden are powerful relics.

However here is the kicker, "Pieces of Eden are powerful relics." While he have his strong Brotherhood he still expects to find an AOE. Seeing as he "won't let anyone destroy anything they've build!", then him having an AOE would make matters worse. He has mad grab for power and will do anything to not let anyone destroy his Brotherhood. Memories later...


http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Freewill
Shay: So what's the next city you want me to smite?! What happened in Haiti happened in Portugal. A great earthquake. Thousands dead, thanks to your damned Manuscript!
Hope intervened, putting herself between Shay and her Mentor.
Achilles: This cannot be.
Hope: Shay, a person cannot start an earthquake.
Shay: A person meddling with these Precursor machines could. You saw the Box, Hope. The Temple was filled to bursting with that kind of power. You made me SLAUGHTER INNOCENTS!
Hope: How dare you!
Shay: You defend him? Achilles sent me in there like Mackandal sent his man in Haiti. He knew.
Liam entered the room and helped Hope with restraining Shay.
Liam: What the hell's going on? Stop this!
Achilles: The operation was delicate, perhaps you-
Shay: You are shifting the earth itself. Who are you to decide what city falls next?
Achilles: Get him out of here.
...
Achilles: I had such hopes for you, Shay.
Shay: Achilles. I have to do this.
Achilles: And what is it you're doing exactly? Stealing from your Brothers? Betraying me?
Shay: Someone must make amends.
Achilles: Make amends? You have no idea what you're doing. The future of the whole continent, maybe the whole word, is tied up in that Manuscript.
Shay: Perhaps. But we don't have the right to decide that future.
Achilles: The right? We have the responsibility!
Shay: WE are responsible for killing innocents and destroying cities! This... mad grab for power. It ends now.
Achilles: I will not let you destroy everything we have built!

First you have Shay who's angry and traumatized. While he explains what has happened they say it's not possible and accuse of doing something wrong while showing no care about the thousands that died in the earthquake. They understand what he said, however since they are fanatics they have the mindset of preventing Templars from getting anything wired up their own arce. Not seeing their own errors as they think Assassins isn't wrong and everything they do is righteous regardless of who that dies. Like Bellec who's from the Colonial Branch, he said he was willing to burn Paris to get Élise and to "save" the Brotherhood.

However here's the thing, Achillies knew of the previous earthquake and sent him regardless because he wanted an AOE. So after Shay explained it they where in denial and didn't believe it. First attempt at explain it went to ****, so his only option to prevent it from happening again is to steal the Manuscript and run(he never planned on joining the Templars. So he gets busted, guess who's mad? Achillies. So Shay tried a second time to explain that hunting for those Temples result in killing of innocents and destroying cities. Does he listen? No. He says he "will not let you destroy everything we have built!" and attacks him. Shay is forced to run as his mad Mentor won't stop and explain it is useless. He has a powerful Brotherhood while having an obsession with finding an AOE in a Temple. Doing as far as saying Shay did something wrong and that will continue searching.

After Shay's second attempt at reasoning with Achillies he's forced to run, Achillies orders his Brotherhood to stop him. So the rest of Achillies blind sheeps try to kill him while they say he won't stop them or their plans while questioning his actions. Then you have Hope trying one last time to get him to stop, saying "Give back the Manuscript, Shay. I'm sure Achilles-" Will what? Spare him? That must be a lie as their fanatics and extremist, they have targeted people in Assassination Contracts for as stupid reasons as the Borgia. That must be a lie, as icing on the cake you have Chevalier shooting him as he falls in to the bay with intensions of killing himself as "One more soul hardly matters."

terroAssassin
10-08-2015, 05:14 PM
Shay- Colonial Assassin's are the worst ever look how many people died because of them huh? Oh and they totally support gangs and criminals
What about the people? Will someone please think about the people?

Arno: Dude you remind me so much of myself when I was in my 20s luckily I grew up and accepted the creed's true meaning

Mr.Black24
10-08-2015, 06:14 PM
And to use on the colonial authority, it will result in casualties among the the people. I still find that hard to believe that they would do this, as they directly said that they would use it against only colonial authorities, such as Officers and Commander ranked soldiers. The facility they had was stock to hold more, thats all. I mean there is a lot of Officers and the likes around here.





Speculation. Plus considering that his Brotherhood is corrupt and extremist it does't make sense either, they are oppressing and terrorizing the colonies. They don't care about the people.

They mentioned that the gangs are allies, but the Assassins themselves are not directly oppressing and terrorizing the colonies. They are at fault as they did not keep them in check still.

By 1756, six headquarters existed in the various districts of New York City. Others were found in Albany, Lac Eternel, Two Bends and Halifax. The headquarters served as Assassin bureaus and local bases of operations for the Brotherhood. However, the citizens often suffered as a result of this, as the Assassins neglected to keep the gangs in check, and thus they terrorized the populace by stealing and demanding protection money from the inhabitants. In his hunt for his former associates, the Templar Shay Cormac evicted the gangs from the headquarters, and restored order with the help of the British Army. With the death of Hope Jensen in 1759, the gangs were dissolved as a major fighting force.gangs were dissolved as a major fighting force.

http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Gang_headquarters

So its a grey area in this one, albeit a dark shade of grey.

Hans684
10-08-2015, 07:33 PM
I still find that hard to believe that they would do this, as they directly said that they would use it against only colonial authorities, such as Officers and Commander ranked soldiers. The facility they had was stock to hold more, thats all. I mean there is a lot of Officers and the likes around here.

http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Circumstances

Le Chasseur: You were always good at your business, Shay.
Shay: As were you. Tell me, what are you doing inland?
Le Chasseur: Special weapons... Poisoneous gases to use against colonial authorities. I am merely a delivery man.

And where are all the Officers and Commanders? All over the colonies, patrolling cities, plantations, forts, etc... There will be civilian casualties regardless, as you said. There is a lot if soldiers out there. But if every solider is bad is another argument entirely, it's also anarchistic to target all authority and all who follows them.


They mentioned that the gangs are allies, but the Assassins themselves are not directly oppressing and terrorizing the colonies. They are at fault as they did not keep them in check still.

And? Does't excuse what they have done. I could say the same about the Followers of Romulus or the thieves under the Borgia rule. As for the headquarters, there is one Assassin in each and there are countless Assassins in each place hunting Shay. If they cared, then those Assassins would have kept the gangs in check. Something they don't. As for the people being directly oppressed by Assassins, look at the Assassination Contracts. As said, they didn't care.


So its a grey area in this one, albeit a dark shade of grey.

I wouldn't call oppression and terrorizing of the people gray, especially with how extreme they went. They're no better than the Borgia, but at least I don't defend them. Maybe I should, it's a darker shade of gray after all.

VestigialLlama4
10-08-2015, 07:42 PM
Look this is about Arno not whether the Assassins in ROGUE are bad guys or not.

D.I.D.
10-09-2015, 01:21 AM
And to use on the colonial authority, it will result in casualties among the the people.

We don't know what. The Templars tell him the Assassins are going to gas the people, and it's a ridiculous idea which would gain the Assassins nothing. He doesn't question it.


Animus Glitch, he never killed innocents. Except for the earthquake he started.

I don't mean that, I mean that Shay was an Assassin. He knew about their poison and he used it on targets himself.


Speculation. Plus considering that his Brotherhood is corrupt and extremist it does't make sense either, they are oppressing and terrorizing the colonies. They don't care about the people.

You just called myself thing speculation (which it is, but a sensible guess given that the Templar slur is obvious bunk and that they'd never need that much of the chemical mix for assassination. And they're factories. First guess would be that its an industrialised business) and then ended with your own speculation. They're terrorising the colonies? They don't care about the people? We've never seen anything to suggest that. There aren't even many of them - they're about to get completely crushed in a very short period of time, until only Achilles remains. They're not an army.


Liberation and Unity, both games has both orders being ****ed up.

Unity is ****ed in every sense, upside down and back to front. It's got some bad assassins, some conflict, and Liberation's got some bad assassins too. But: it's just a couple of bad ones, really. You still get to control a "good" person, who knows plenty of "good" people. They're not institutionally rotten, which might be an interesting thing to see from time to time. The best police forces in the world will have periods of serious corruption, and the Assassins are a highly unconventional police force. I'd like to see what happens when their enemy is themselves, and they have to somehow cut out the cancer and still have enough surviving members to continue their cult.


- Use of gangs to terrorize the Colonies. Check
The gangs they use as mercenaries are not well-controlled, but they're not Assassins and the Assassins are not ordering them to hurt civilians.

- Attempt at gassing the Colonies. Check
Didn't happen, no evidence for it. The Templars were leading Shay by the nose, and even he realised that in the end.

- Attack on native villages. Check
Refresh my memory here. When?

- Fanatics blindly following their Mentor and Creed. Check
Only in as much as they always have, and we know they don't do it blindly. Every protagonist wrestles with the Creed and what it means.

- Attack on surrendering soldiers. Check
Again, I don't know what bit this is. Don't remember this.


Seeing as Shay is the most humane and empathetic protagonist so far there are all reasons he'd end up turning on them either way.
He's a dimwit. He's nothing like as empathetic as Connor, and I'm not a Connor fan. If Shay had been written to have empathy, he might have second-guessed his actions and questioned if he'd actually done the right thing. It takes him years to do that, because he's thick as two short planks.


A calm Mentor with anger issues that's a fanatic blindly following his Creed while leading a Brotherhood with gangs controlled by Assassins all over the Colonies, an Assassin navy and the Assassins themselves. Yet the expected to find a AOE in the Temples and "will not let anyone destroy what they have build!"

Achilles gets angry with Shay when he catches him burgling vital items.


Explain his Brotherhood and complete disregard to the Creed then.

Achilles's disregard of the creed? I'm not sure which bits you mean, since every game does something against the creed and we get threads here decrying it. In this game, I guess you mean the haste and public spectacle of the missions? The script did mention something about there being no time to waste and blah blah blah. Don't remember.

I don't know what this sentence means: "Explain his Brotherhood"? That makes no sense to me.


We are talking about the Colonial Templars, others are irrelevant to the case. They wasn't founded until Haytham arrived, however Achillies Brotherhood had been striving with little resistance. So they where far more powerful.

The Templars have infiltrated every European military and naval force and already control them. The Assassins are an already reduced band with influence in urban centres, but over the next decade or so every cell is going to be destroyed.

Haytham arrived in 1754, when Shay was only 23. Haytham arrives to become first Grandmaster of the American colonies, not to begin the Templar Order in the New World. It's already there.


Shay has all the right to be mad, starting an earthquake and watching a city full of worthless people die [because clearly the Assassins matters more] and could have died himself is something to get mad over. Saying this isn't good, then you might as well say Ezio wanting revenge over the murder of his father and brothers isn't good enough or that Connor being strangled by an ugly unstable racist ******* isn't a good reason either. He was traumatized and willing to kill himself before killing them, if it meant saving the world. As for the discussions, before the earthquake.

Yeah, he does, but I don't think the writing earned that. The writing doesn't present him as traumatised so much as self-righteous. I'd have loved to see some writing to depict him as shell-shocked, or if he'd seen things that were genuinely likely to cause him to misintepret Achilles's intentions. It's just poorly done.



http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Lessons_and_Revelations
Achilles: Tell me what happened, old friend.
Adéwalé: It was terrible, Achilles. The ground shook, and the ocean waves crashed over Port-au-Prince...
Achilles: How many were lost?
Adéwalé: Thousands. No family was left untouched.
Achilles: I hate to bring up practical matters at a time like this, but did Mackandal's man complete his task before the earthquake hit?
Adéwalé: I cannot know. Vendredi has not been found. He was a strong Maroon, one of Mackandal's best students.
Achilles: Such a shame. So we cannot know if he found the site.
Adéwalé: Indeed. But if there was a temple under the waves, I doubt it is still standing.
Achilles: And the artifacts that showed the way?
Adéwalé: Stolen. The Templars broke in during the chaos. They seized the Manuscript and Precursor box. I gave chase on the sea, but lost their trail when they reached New York.

Alright, fair enough. First earthquake has happened and he don't know what had happened. So naturally he will continue the search, memories later...


http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Kyrie_Eleison
Achilles: Given your present knowledge of the site, this duty falls upon you. You understand what must be done?
Shay: Find the Precursor Temple and retrieve the Piece of Eden.
Hope: We finally obtained a ship for crossing the ocean. Have no worries, I will keep the Morrigan safe in New York.
Shay: Thank you. Liam and I will leave straight away.
Achilles: Liam is unavailable at present. Your crew and ship await. Be careful, Shay. Pieces of Eden are powerful relics.

However here is the kicker, "Pieces of Eden are powerful relics." While he have his strong Brotherhood he still expects to find an AOE. Seeing as he "won't let anyone destroy anything they've build!", then him having an AOE would make matters worse. He has mad grab for power and will do anything to not let anyone destroy his Brotherhood. Memories later...


http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Freewill
Shay: So what's the next city you want me to smite?! What happened in Haiti happened in Portugal. A great earthquake. Thousands dead, thanks to your damned Manuscript!
Hope intervened, putting herself between Shay and her Mentor.
Achilles: This cannot be.
Hope: Shay, a person cannot start an earthquake.
Shay: A person meddling with these Precursor machines could. You saw the Box, Hope. The Temple was filled to bursting with that kind of power. You made me SLAUGHTER INNOCENTS!
Hope: How dare you!
Shay: You defend him? Achilles sent me in there like Mackandal sent his man in Haiti. He knew.
Liam entered the room and helped Hope with restraining Shay.
Liam: What the hell's going on? Stop this!
Achilles: The operation was delicate, perhaps you-
Shay: You are shifting the earth itself. Who are you to decide what city falls next?
Achilles: Get him out of here.
...
Achilles: I had such hopes for you, Shay.
Shay: Achilles. I have to do this.
Achilles: And what is it you're doing exactly? Stealing from your Brothers? Betraying me?
Shay: Someone must make amends.
Achilles: Make amends? You have no idea what you're doing. The future of the whole continent, maybe the whole word, is tied up in that Manuscript.
Shay: Perhaps. But we don't have the right to decide that future.
Achilles: The right? We have the responsibility!
Shay: WE are responsible for killing innocents and destroying cities! This... mad grab for power. It ends now.
Achilles: I will not let you destroy everything we have built!

First you have Shay who's angry and traumatized. While he explains what has happened they say it's not possible and accuse of doing something wrong while showing no care about the thousands that died in the earthquake. They understand what he said, however since they are fanatics they have the mindset of preventing Templars from getting anything wired up their own arce. Not seeing their own errors as they think Assassins isn't wrong and everything they do is righteous regardless of who that dies. Like Bellec who's from the Colonial Branch, he said he was willing to burn Paris to get Élise and to "save" the Brotherhood.

However here's the thing, Achillies knew of the previous earthquake and sent him regardless because he wanted an AOE. So after Shay explained it they where in denial and didn't believe it. First attempt at explain it went to ****, so his only option to prevent it from happening again is to steal the Manuscript and run(he never planned on joining the Templars. So he gets busted, guess who's mad? Achillies. So Shay tried a second time to explain that hunting for those Temples result in killing of innocents and destroying cities. Does he listen? No. He says he "will not let you destroy everything we have built!" and attacks him. Shay is forced to run as his mad Mentor won't stop and explain it is useless. He has a powerful Brotherhood while having an obsession with finding an AOE in a Temple. Doing as far as saying Shay did something wrong and that will continue searching.

After Shay's second attempt at reasoning with Achillies he's forced to run, Achillies orders his Brotherhood to stop him. So the rest of Achillies blind sheeps try to kill him while they say he won't stop them or their plans while questioning his actions. Then you have Hope trying one last time to get him to stop, saying "Give back the Manuscript, Shay. I'm sure Achilles-" Will what? Spare him? That must be a lie as their fanatics and extremist, they have targeted people in Assassination Contracts for as stupid reasons as the Borgia. That must be a lie, as icing on the cake you have Chevalier shooting him as he falls in to the bay with intensions of killing himself as "One more soul hardly matters."

Yeah, there's a little justification in there for the way the scene plays out, but it still feels off in the game to me, and it doesn't square at all with the ending. I still don't see how it's a mad grab for power. Every game with a PoE has had us being ordered to go after a weapon of unknown and potentially unimaginable power. These things are legendary. I don't see what makes Achilles the worst of the worst.

Even if we accept Shay's idea that he knew, this doesn't square with the ending of the game. Achilles has the PoE right in front of him, and he's in a remote part of the world. If all he wants is to take what he believes are usable PoEs at any cost, this one should have been the easiest to take. But he stops, he doesn't want it, and he's horrified by what he learns.

In fact, Shay overhears Achilles and Liam when they don't know they're being watched. Achilles stops Liam from taking the PoE, and says that he now realises Shay was right. Liam says something like "What would he know?", and Achilles replies, "More than me, it seems" (or words to that effect). Shay then interrupts to say it's Achilles's fault for not listening to him (although Shay shouts down everyone else who tries to reason with him in those scenes, but w/e). Shay discovers it was actually the Chavalier who shot him and not Liam as he had believed.

Do you see what I mean? It's all grudges and clumsiness, mistakes compounding mistakes. Nobody's really bad. I'm not arguing against you because I want them to be good. I really couldn't give two ****s about Achilles, and I don't need the Assassins to be good. I just wish they'd been truly, properly bad this time, and they just weren't.

Locopells
10-09-2015, 11:18 AM
Topic guys - if you're gonna sidebar to this extent, create a new thread.

Hans684
10-09-2015, 11:32 AM
We don't know what. The Templars tell him the Assassins are going to gas the people, and it's a ridiculous idea which would gain the Assassins nothing. He doesn't question it. I don't mean that, I mean that Shay was an Assassin. He knew about their poison and he used it on targets himself.

http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Circumstances

Shay: As were you. Tell me, what are you doing inland?
Le Chasseur: Special weapons... Poisoneous gases to use against colonial authorities. I am merely a delivery man.
Shay: Then may your final delivery be swift.

Direct confirmation on use against the colonial authorities. And seen as the colonial authorities is all over the colonies and they are gonna use poisonous gasses it will be civilian casualties regardless of them being a target or not since they have all authority targeted.

Shay: Benjamin Franklin... The scientist?
Monro: You have heard of him, good. He is making equipment to spread gases among the populace. Toxic ones, as it turns out.
Shay: The populace? I thought they would use it against the authorities. Though that would be terrible as well...
Monro: The ruffians we have arrested refer to an intimidating woman. I believe she is behind these nefarious plans.
Shay: I'll look into this.

And he does question it, investigate it and destroys the poison.


They're terrorising the colonies?

The gangs controlled by Hope. Each Gang Hideout has an Assassin leading them with countless others Assassins in each place hurting Shay. Seeing as the gangs they have terrorizing the colonies and them doing nothing to keep them in check shows how little they care. Plus the Assassination Contracts with Assassins targeting both Templars and innocents.


They don't care about the people? We've never seen anything to suggest that.

Their gangs, attempt at gassing the Colonies and Attack and capture by an Assassin-allied gang on native villages lead by Kesegowaase.


There aren't even many of them - they're about to get completely crushed in a very short period of time, until only Achilles remains. They're not an army.

But they are. They have gangs all over the colonies, an Assassin navy and then there is the Brotherhood itself.


Unity is ****ed in every sense, upside down and back to front. It's got some bad assassins, some conflict, and Liberation's got some bad assassins too. But: it's just a couple of bad ones, really. You still get to control a "good" person, who knows plenty of "good" people. They're not institutionally rotten, which might be an interesting thing to see from time to time.

Close enough.


The best police forces in the world will have periods of serious corruption, and the Assassins are a highly unconventional police force. I'd like to see what happens when their enemy is themselves, and they have to somehow cut out the cancer and still have enough surviving members to continue their cult.

That's where Rogue comes in, you just play as a Templars instead.


The gangs they use as mercenaries are not well-controlled, but they're not Assassins and the Assassins are not ordering them to hurt civilians.

That are controlled by Hope who has an Assassin controlling each gang hideout. Mercenaries or not they are heavily involved with the Assassins.


Didn't happen, no evidence for it. The Templars were leading Shay by the nose, and even he realised that in the end.

Of course it didn't, Shay stopped it.


Refresh my memory here. When?

Already have.


Only in as much as they always have, and we know they don't do it blindly. Every protagonist wrestles with the Creed and what it means.

His brotherhood is extremist and fanatic. The only one questioning is Shay.


Again, I don't know what bit this is. Don't remember this.

http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/George_Monro

By 1757, Monro had given up on his assignment of uncovering the manuscript's meaning and entrusted the Piece of Eden to Shay, as he himself had been assigned to command Fort William Henry, which was being threatened by French soldiers and Abenaki braves under the command of General Louis-Joseph de Montcalm. The fortress came under siege on 2 August, with Monro eventually surrendering seven days later. As part of the terms of surrender, the Colonel and his men were allowed to keep their muskets and one cannon, but no ammunition, and were released the next morning to be allowed passage to Fort Edward.

Shay escorting Monro and his men
However, unbeknownst to the British, the Abenaki plotted to ambush the Colonel and his men as they retreated. The Assassin Kesegowaase decided to use this to his advantage and led the attack in the hopes of assassinating Monro, though his plans were sabotaged when Shay came to the Colonel's rescue. Surviving the ambush, Shay, Monro and the remaining troops reached the Morrigan and sailed away to safety.


He's a dimwit. He's nothing like as empathetic as Connor, and I'm not a Connor fan. If Shay had been written to have empathy, he might have second-guessed his actions and questioned if he'd actually done the right thing. It takes him years to do that, because he's thick as two short planks.

He's more humanistic and empathetic than Connor.

http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Shay_Cormac


Shay was originally a brash young man, not taking his role as an Assassin seriously, due in part to his lack of experience as opposed to disbelief in their cause. He was prone to expressing doubts regarding the Creed, which bolstered his decision to steal the manuscript and leave the Assassins after the disaster in Lisbon, believing that the Brotherhood was at fault under Achilles' leadership.

Shay reasoning with Haytham to spare Achilles' life
Despite openly aligning with the Templars and fighting his former comrades, Shay expressed remorse for having to eliminate them, particularly Hope Jensen and his close friend, Liam O'Brien. He also took no pleasure in killing Assassins whom he was not familiar with on a personal level, such as Adéwalé and Charles Dorian.

Shay disliked having to kill individuals whom he deemed weak and defenseless, such as Lawrence Washington or Samuel Smith, despite their allegiance to the Templar Order. Similarly, Shay was deeply affected by the earthquake in Lisbon, believing that he had personally slaughtered innocent people through the activation of the First Civilization device.

Shay speaking with Onatah after aiding the Iroquis
Shay was also determined to help those who were in need, as seen through numerous property renovations commissioned by him across the North American colonies, in order to improve the living standard of the people. It was through helping the colonists against the oppression from both the authorities and the Assassin-affiliated gangs which caused Shay to embrace the Templar ideology. He also expressed a dislike of slavery, displaying a disbelief when he learned that the French, who were allied with the Assassins at the time, were still practicing slavery in Haiti, even after the attempts to end the practice by François Mackandal and Adéwalé.

Throughout his life, Shay carried a motto of "making his own luck", displaying his belief in personal independence and ingenuity, rather than fortune or others' actions to achieve success.


http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/By_Invitation_Only
Shay: Washington can barely stand on his own two feet. You better be right about him, Liam, because I'm about to murder a dying man.
...
Shay: Lawrence Washington is dead.
Liam: You look disappointed.
Shay: The sickly way that man looked, he would have been dead in a month anyway. And two other Templars got away. They're looking into the Manuscript and Box.
Liam: Did they have the artifacts?



http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/We_the_People
Shay: I don't feel much like celebrating, Liam... I know we have to get these artifacts back, but at what cost? Samuel Smith... He could barely hold his sword straight. Killing him was...
Liam: Necessary.
Shay: But-
Liam: But nothing! Smith was a dangerous man, a Templar. And what's worse, he had the Precursor box. You should be proud of yourself, Shay.


http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Circumstances
Shay: Don't make me do this, Le Chasseur!
Le Chasseur: Do what, assassinate me? I thought that was your specialty.
Shay: We could both just leave.
Le Chasseur: Ah, but then I would tell your Brothers that you are still alive. You have to kill me, Shay.



http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Scars
Kesegowaase: We trained you well... traitor.
Shay: Kesegowaase... It didn't have to be this way.
Kesegowaase: It did. You are an enemy. Achilles will see you dead.


http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Bravado
Shay: It would, I know. But it seems a shame. He's a good man, Gist.
Gist: So was the elder Washington. And Smith, I rather enjoyed drinking with him. Wardrop too, though the man could not hold his liquor. He and Weeks never got along, you know.
Shay: If you're trying to test my conscience, Gist, you've succeeded.
...
Shay: Forgive me, Adéwalé.
Adéwalé: You dare beg forgiveness, child? Hell welcomes traitors like you.
Shay: Then I go there proudly, knowing I have done right.


http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Caress_of_Steel
Hope: You're late, again, Shay...
Shay: Hope, I didn't want to do this.
Hope: I trained you to do this. I expected nothing less.



http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Non_Nobis_Domine
Liam: I found Hope's body, Shay!
Shay: I'm sorry!
Liam: Was it you? Tell me!
Shay: I had to!...
Liam: No... You chose to!
...
Liam: And how'd you do that, you bastard? You broke the Assassins. Betrayed... everyone you knew... You sided with... our worst enemies... And for what?!
Shay: To save the world.
...
Haytham: Why not?
Shay: Achilles is harmless now! A Mentor with no followers. What kind of world are we making if we cannot show mercy? Besides, he understands what these Precursor sites are now. Without him, the Assassins may continue their search.
Haytham: Valid points.



http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/QXNzYXNzaW5hdGlvbg0K
Charles: You! You're the traitor.
Shay: I'm just finishing old business.


As for Connor, you have him avoiding killing William because "there was no need."
Then you have his childhood friend who he's forced to kill.
And Haytham who's his father that he wants unity with, he accepts his offer. Works with him until he finds out Washington burned his village. So he breaks the truce and works with the French during a battle to get ships from them. Then he attacks Haytham's base with intentions of killing Lee but is attacked by Haytham. So during the battle Connor suggests a truce. Something Haytham won't accept after it was broken once already and the fact that he just attacked their base.

http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Ratonhnhaké%3Aton

Thereafter, Connor recovered Haytham's journal and read of his father's tragic childhood and lifetime of betrayal, also discovering that he had saved Connor's life: Haytham was the one who threw a knife at the hangman's noose during Connor's execution, fully severing the rope after Connor's apprentices had fired an arrow and weakened it.

Furthermore, Connor learned Haytham had feigned ignorance of Kaniehtí:io's death as he had assumed Connor would never believe that Washington was responsible.With this newfound knowledge, Connor marked his father off of the target wall beneath the manor with "Sakataterihwáhten", to signify his regret at their falling out, but still remained resolute in his decision to support the Assassin Order.


Achilles gets angry with Shay when he catches him burgling vital items.

I've already said that about.


Achilles's disregard of the creed? I'm not sure which bits you mean, since every game does something against the creed and we get threads here decrying it. In this game, I guess you mean the haste and public spectacle of the missions? The script did mention something about there being no time to waste and blah blah blah. Don't remember.

I mean everything I'm telling you about him, his brotherhood and their methods.


I don't know what this sentence means: "Explain his Brotherhood"? That makes no sense to me.

His fanatical and extremist brotherhood using the Creed as a policy of aggression and unrestricted power.


The Templars have infiltrated every European military and naval force and already control them. The Assassins are an already reduced band with influence in urban centres, but over the next decade or so every cell is going to be destroyed.

Yes Templars had infiltrated governments and nations but never accomplished their plan on replacing them. However in the colonies they had less power than Achilles brotherhood as it had been growing with little resistance before Haytham arivvied.


Haytham arrived in 1754, when Shay was only 23. Haytham arrives to become first Grandmaster of the American colonies, not to begin the Templar Order in the New World. It's already there.

Yes there are Templars there but the Colonial Rite wasn't founded until Haytham arrived and started recruiting and becoming the first Grand Master in the colonies. Achilles brotherhood had been become what it is in Rogue before he arrive.


Yeah, he does, but I don't think the writing earned that. The writing doesn't present him as traumatised so much as self-righteous. I'd have loved to see some writing to depict him as shell-shocked, or if he'd seen things that were genuinely likely to cause him to misintepret Achilles's intentions. It's just poorly done.

He overheard Achilles discussion with Adéwalé about the first earthquake and after starting one himself he naturally will be angry and traumatized while also questioning his motives because of the discussion he overheard. He is willing to kill himself to prevent them from looking for more of those Temples. "All those souls lost... One more hardly matters." Then he falls in to the bay with intentions of killing himself.


Yeah, there's a little justification in there for the way the scene plays out, but it still feels off in the game to me, and it doesn't square at all with the ending. I still don't see how it's a mad grab for power.

Because his brotherhood is destroyed, he's without followers and he was proven wrong. There never was an Apple Of Eden, his obsession and ignorance got his brotherhood purged.


Every game with a PoE has had us being ordered to go after a weapon of unknown and potentially unimaginable power. These things are legendary. I don't see what makes Achilles the worst of the worst.

I'm not saying he's the worst of the worst, just that he definitely isn't good. I'd say he's comparable to the Borgia.


Even if we accept Shay's idea that he knew, this doesn't square with the ending of the game. Achilles has the PoE right in front of him, and he's in a remote part of the world. If all he wants is to take what he believes are usable PoEs at any cost, this one should have been the easiest to take. But he stops, he doesn't want it, and he's horrified by what he learns.

Because it's not the AOE, so he learns his mistake.


In fact, Shay overhears Achilles and Liam when they don't know they're being watched. Achilles stops Liam from taking the PoE, and says that he now realises Shay was right. Liam says something like "What would he know?", and Achilles replies, "More than me, it seems" (or words to that effect).

I know all that.


Shay then interrupts to say it's Achilles's fault for not listening to him (although Shay shouts down everyone else who tries to reason with him in those scenes, but w/e). Shay discovers it was actually the Chavalier who shot him and not Liam as he had believed.

As far as I'm aware screaming didn't prevent anyone from understanding his warnings. They shouted him down by saying it's not possible to start and earthquake and says he did something wrong. Throws him out in the cold with intentions of looking for more Temples. He is forced to act, so during the second time reasoning with Achilles he still won't listen and gets attacked instead.


Do you see what I mean? It's all grudges and clumsiness, mistakes compounding mistakes.

Depends on how much you remember and/or ignore.


Nobody's really bad.

And neither is the Borgia.


I'm not arguing against you because I want them to be good.

You just don't remember it all, you've just played it once sometime ago.


I really couldn't give two ****s about Achilles, and I don't need the Assassins to be good.

Great, moral grayness is something AC need more of.


I just wish they'd been truly, properly bad this time, and they just weren't.

I say the same about the Borgia, sure their methods wasn't the cleanest but they tried to prevent Assassin influence without harming innocents.

The only Assassin that can be considered good in Rogue is Arno's father, Charles Dorian. As for Arno himself, he's an Assassin blinded by love. But not really interesting for me, Shay is.

RegeRoka
12-23-2015, 10:39 PM
I liked him. It was refreshing to have an assassin, who just... Well, fell in the creed. He did not care about the stupid fight between the assassins and templars.
I didn't take him as an idealist. He was loyal to his love, and his foster father. After everything went down the hill, he had to choose between being a simple man, or he could join this assassin-madness (he heard nothing of it before, why would he be invested in its ideas?), and at least hunt down the ones who ruined his life. Easy choice, if you ask me.

SixKeys
12-23-2015, 11:08 PM
OT, but I just had to say I love your sig, RegeRoka. :D

Assassin_M
12-24-2015, 12:21 AM
I was replaying Unity the other day and as much as I thought the story was all over the place, I still thought Arno was the best thing out of it. Conversely in Syndicate, I felt the protagonists were the worst part of the story and some of the antagonists were the best part.

VernalBreak
12-24-2015, 12:24 AM
I might get hate for this but I really don't care. Arno was not only the best protagonist ever to feature in an assassin's creed game, he was the best protagonist ever to feature into any game ever. Unity was a masterpeice of gaming for every reason.

Assassin_M
12-24-2015, 12:26 AM
I might get hate for this but I really don't care. Arno was not only the best protagonist ever to feature in an assassin's creed game, he was the best protagonist ever to feature into any game ever. Unity was a masterpeice of gaming for every reason.
r/gamingcircle**** much?

VernalBreak
12-24-2015, 12:27 AM
I dunno what you mean.

Mr.Black24
12-24-2015, 12:39 AM
I was replaying Unity the other day and as much as I thought the story was all over the place, I still thought Arno was the best thing out of it. Conversely in Syndicate, I felt the protagonists were the worst part of the story and some of the antagonists were the best part.
I agree that Arno is a good character. When you think about it, while he holds the beliefs of revolution and the people should have the power like Connor does, however unlike Connor, he doesn't have strength nor conviction to go on when he is brought down to his knees. Connor is the guy that fights no matter what, while Arno is pretty much the average fella who needs a push when things get very heavy and would lose strength if there is no support. After all, not everyone can have a strong will at birth. Connor, Ezio, and Altair had this, Arno is an example of one who doesn't, however it does grow and strengthen overtime under the right circumstances.

Like the guy lost his father, his step father, and about to loose the very last thing reminiscent of his family, which was Elise. Like Connor, Arno had a life that he was about to lose, and so he desperately fought to save her. The very thing that keeps him happy and stable, plus not to mention that he loves and cares for her, hence why he wants her out of harm's way. All the while, he tries his best to make sure the radical Templars don't cause more damage in the revolution and the leftover chances of unity between both Orders. His letters in the Abstergo book and the novel shows that he wanted to teach his children about both the good practices of the Templars and Assassins to use their philosophies to better the future of humanity. Instead, everyone kept complaining that it was just Arno going after Elise's pants, but it was more than that. Its like how people thought Connor is a raging idiot, when so called "idiot" had so much to lose that of course he'd be angry and stressed out a lot.

Arno is a very deep character, just that his character was split into the books and not a whole into the game, as it should be.

VernalBreak
12-24-2015, 12:57 AM
Arno was in the end stronger than any other in my opinion. I felt like he was more human than any of the others yet he was deep and on his path of saving people, and revenge or redemption in his words. Never in any other video game or movie did I feel like Arno was truly doing the best thing not just being somewhat of an idiot like a lot of other assassin's. I can't compare him to Ezio evenly because I didn't like Ezio. I also agree that Connor was awesome, tho to me Arno will always be the best.

SixKeys
12-24-2015, 02:56 AM
Arno was in the end stronger than any other in my opinion. I felt like he was more human than any of the others yet he was deep and on his path of saving people, and revenge or redemption in his words. Never in any other video game or movie did I feel like Arno was truly doing the best thing not just being somewhat of an idiot like a lot of other assassin's. I can't compare him to Ezio evenly because I didn't like Ezio. I also agree that Connor was awesome, tho to me Arno will always be the best.

Yeah, like the time he killed a bunch of innocent people in a drunken rage just to get back his bottle of booze. What a hero.

VernalBreak
12-24-2015, 03:17 AM
Those guys were in a bar fight with him. Also, they were revolutionaries in red! He may have killed them anyway so to me that isn't a problem.

VestigialLlama4
12-24-2015, 06:01 AM
I was replaying Unity the other day and as much as I thought the story was all over the place, I still thought Arno was the best thing out of it.

For me the best part of Unity was Pierre Bellec. And the game agrees since the minute he dies, the story essentially collapses. Unity might have been better, or well moderately improved, if Bellec was the main bad guy instead of Germain. It would have been greatly improved if Bellec was the protagonist.

As for Arno, why exactly do you think Arno is so special M? Am I missing something or being overly malicious. I am not kidding? Is there something more to Arno because to me after Altair, Ezio, Connor and Edward, Arno is just...meh.

I don't hate Arno really. I hate Unity on the whole, but as a character, Arno is kind of this vacuous guy with no conviction and nothing at stake. That itself can be interesting because Arno is this "average guy" and people do relate to that. But the thing is even for being average there has to be a logical progression and consequences for that character. The way I see it, Arno is someone who quit the Assassins after the game because I don't think he really cares a great deal about it. Given the strength of his love for Elise and the grief he kept going through, I also see him as likely drinking himself to an early grave or committing suicide. If Elise had lived, I think Arno would have quit the Assassins and joined the Templars for her sake. Likewise, Arno as is implied in the Co-Op missions and the epilogue of Unity, probably becomes a lackey and stooge for Napoleon.

These are all potential endpoints for that character and the game doesn't entirely follow on any of them and that ruins Arno's story. Ultimately, you can't have an average guy be an Assassin and stay average and wishy-washy all the way through because that guy is not reliable to many people from a story perspective. There has to be a reason why average guys like Arno hangs out among people with real convictions, and that ruins his story.

That of course is the narrative stuff. The other reason Arno is unappealing to me, is that I can't look at Arno without seeing him as a Next-Gen clone for Ezio. Now given that some people dislike Ezio this might not be a problem, but for others the visual design of that character is really off-putting. He doesn't feel like a man of his time in a historical milieu, he feels like a creation of the Animus and to me it makes the game less immersive, even without all the horrible stuff done to the background.

Sesheenku
12-24-2015, 06:05 AM
He's not too shabby. Kind of a subdued Ezio if you will.

He's got a bit more Altair level seriousness in him though.

Sesheenku
12-24-2015, 06:06 AM
I might get hate for this but I really don't care. Arno was not only the best protagonist ever to feature in an assassin's creed game, he was the best protagonist ever to feature into any game ever. Unity was a masterpeice of gaming for every reason.

Whoaaaa whoaaa whoaaaaa, let's keep it friendly.

RegeRoka
12-24-2015, 05:37 PM
OT, but I just had to say I love your sig, RegeRoka. :D

Thank you sir/madam.

Also, I don't think we should compare anyone to an other character, bcause that clouds your judgment. Ezio/Altair/Connor/whoever fans will think no one can live up to him/her, but I don't think anyone even should. They are separate characters, times and stories.
From all, Arno was the most human, someone I can actually believe that one day would sit in a pub in my willage drinking some alcohol. Poor guy.

VernalBreak
12-24-2015, 05:54 PM
@regaroka, Dats why no one should hate Arno. I agree with you that people should not want protagonists to be the same. Although if anyone ever compares to Ezio I am not going to buy the game. Ezio was a bad protagonist in every way.


@sesheenku, I like Arno. I could relate with him because he was human. He was awesome at times and needed help at times. There can not ever be a protagonist better than Arno because Arno was perfect.

Assassin_M
12-24-2015, 07:16 PM
For me the best part of Unity was Pierre Bellec. And the game agrees since the minute he dies, the story essentially collapses. Unity might have been better, or well moderately improved, if Bellec was the main bad guy instead of Germain. It would have been greatly improved if Bellec was the protagonist.
Don't get me wrong, I thought Bellec was great too, but Ubisoft doesn't have enough faith in its fanbase to have had Bellec be the protagonist. Too controversial. You saw how something like Rogue turned out.


As for Arno, why exactly do you think Arno is so special M? Am I missing something or being overly malicious. I am not kidding? Is there something more to Arno because to me after Altair, Ezio, Connor and Edward, Arno is just...meh.

I don't hate Arno really. I hate Unity on the whole, but as a character, Arno is kind of this vacuous guy with no conviction and nothing at stake. That itself can be interesting because Arno is this "average guy" and people do relate to that. But the thing is even for being average there has to be a logical progression and consequences for that character. The way I see it, Arno is someone who quit the Assassins after the game because I don't think he really cares a great deal about it. Given the strength of his love for Elise and the grief he kept going through, I also see him as likely drinking himself to an early grave or committing suicide. If Elise had lived, I think Arno would have quit the Assassins and joined the Templars for her sake. Likewise, Arno as is implied in the Co-Op missions and the epilogue of Unity, probably becomes a lackey and stooge for Napoleon.

These are all potential endpoints for that character and the game doesn't entirely follow on any of them and that ruins Arno's story. Ultimately, you can't have an average guy be an Assassin and stay average and wishy-washy all the way through because that guy is not reliable to many people from a story perspective. There has to be a reason why average guys like Arno hangs out among people with real convictions, and that ruins his story.

That of course is the narrative stuff. The other reason Arno is unappealing to me, is that I can't look at Arno without seeing him as a Next-Gen clone for Ezio. Now given that some people dislike Ezio this might not be a problem, but for others the visual design of that character is really off-putting. He doesn't feel like a man of his time in a historical milieu, he feels like a creation of the Animus and to me it makes the game less immersive, even without all the horrible stuff done to the background.
There's not much more, you basically described why I like him. He has no conviction but towards people whom he holds emotional bonds with. I suppose it was a nice change to have a male protagonist be given what's usually a feminine quality, which is emotional vulnerability. He really is just an average guy who breaks apart whenever he's emotionally vulnerable. I don't necessarily relate with that, but it was a nice change.

Regarding his end-point as a character, I disagree there. I thought the side missions and certain bits of the story showed that Arno truly wanted to help unfortunate people around him. He wasn't necessarily a soldier, but he was genuinely ready to assist people and stand up to what he perceived as injustice and all of that was of no external initiative but his own. When his father died, his life stop right at that moment, symbolized by how the watch is always stuck there. He gets stuck whenever things fall apart and he fails to function. He has no inner drive, no motivation apart from people he loves. When people he loves are taken away from him or stop believing in him, he becomes a vegetable. Literally. After Elise dies, his watch works again, he moved on with his life. Dead Kings and his speech at the end solidified his new found drive. That's how I saw it, at least.

About his aesthetics, no argument there. They were heavily trying to sell Arno as another Ezio, just as they did Jacob, just as they'll do for all protagonists to come. They even said that his personality is closer to Ezio when asked even though that's far from the truth.

ShadoeKat
12-25-2015, 04:44 PM
I liked Arno and Unity quite a bit. Dead Kings showed an older Arno looking at things differently. Wonder what we could have seen in a follow up gane...oh well, probably won't know. On to the next game.

phoenix-force411
12-25-2015, 06:48 PM
I have no hate for Arno. It's always the characters that fans hate the most or dislike the most that I end up liking more, because of their personalities and how they react to the world around them.

phoenix-force411
12-25-2015, 06:56 PM
There's not much more, you basically described why I like him. He has no conviction but towards people whom he holds emotional bonds with. I suppose it was a nice change to have a male protagonist be given what's usually a feminine quality, which is emotional vulnerability. He really is just an average guy who breaks apart whenever he's emotionally vulnerable. I don't necessarily relate with that, but it was a nice change.

Regarding his end-point as a character, I disagree there. I thought the side missions and certain bits of the story showed that Arno truly wanted to help unfortunate people around him. He wasn't necessarily a soldier, but he was genuinely ready to assist people and stand up to what he perceived as injustice and all of that was of no external initiative but his own. When his father died, his life stop right at that moment, symbolized by how the watch is always stuck there. He gets stuck whenever things fall apart and he fails to function. He has no inner drive, no motivation apart from people he loves. When people he loves are taken away from him or stop believing in him, he becomes a vegetable. Literally. After Elise dies, his watch works again, he moved on with his life. Dead Kings and his speech at the end solidified his new found drive. That's how I saw it, at least.

About his aesthetics, no argument there. They were heavily trying to sell Arno as another Ezio, just as they did Jacob, just as they'll do for all protagonists to come. They even said that his personality is closer to Ezio when asked even though that's far from the truth.

Agreed, and I liked how you symbolized particular events and the watch. As for Jacob trying to be sold as another Ezio, he probably would have been another wannabe-Ezio if Ubisoft kept him in his Victory Outfit. To me, that outfit represents Jacob as a more serious and dedicated person to the creed. In Syndicate, it is clear that he is dedicated, but he has his own ideals for the creed. He's reckless and brash which wouldn't really represent that if his Victory outfit was kept. I think it was a good decision to remake his outfit into the Outdoorsman Outfit, instead, because that conveys his personality and character much better.

Bipolar Matt
12-27-2015, 06:41 AM
I liked Arno. He had an "every man" quality about him that Ezio lacked. Arno was raised an aristocrat and yet was still pretty down to earth. Like Edward, at least at first, he used the Creed for his own reasons, although it can be argued that Arno's reasons were far more noble. That's a more realistic interpretation to me than "Yes, I buy into this whole heartedly at such a young age."

He was insanely skilled with a sword and a variety of weapons and probably the best pure freerunner in the series so far. And he was all about Elise. Truly loved her, despite their opposing ideologies.

Thumbs up for Arno Victor Dorian here.

briangade
12-27-2015, 07:57 AM
I didn't mind him that much.

Much like Connor I feel I might get to like him if he got to star in another game,so we can see other sides of him.

RegeRoka
12-27-2015, 01:00 PM
I'm also interested in his wy of collecting his victim's memories. It was a nice new thing in my opinion, but I guess the fans shut it down (I don't really know, just guessing), just like how they are uncomfortable with the twins not having their hoods on all the time, wich is seriously stupid. Sorry, it is. But the way I see it, there always has to be something to whine about... But this is off topic, my bad.

LoyalACFan
12-27-2015, 04:35 PM
I have to admit, my opinion of Arno has deteriorated a little over time. I used to be ambivalent toward him, but now I actually sort of dislike him, mostly because it's hard to nail down who he actually is. Is he a guy who chooses to join up with a secret underground death cult on a drunken whim, or is he a guy who just wants to settle down with the girl he loves and escape from it all? Because the latter seems to be a MUCH more powerful motivator for him throughout most of the story, but for some reason he stays with the Assassins even when, by nature, it's at direct odds with that goal. And he didn't even like the Brotherhood. If his quest was really for "redemption," as he claimed so passionately, why are the stuffy, hopelessly bureaucratic Assassins a necessary stepping stone to that end when Elise is already off avenging? It's not like the Assassins ever provided him with any backup or tactical aid (except Bellec, who he ends up killing). Don't say it's because he feels an obligation to the people; Arno never gave a rat's *** about the revolution, side missions be damned; the co-op missions were just assignments he received from the Brotherhood, and the Paris Stories are just filler content. And that actually would have been okay as a character trait; somebody who just wants to stay out of it, get away and marry his girl. That'd be fine, except he constantly working against himself to such an extent that it's hard to feel much pity for him (especially when he collapses into violent drunkenness, making him look more like a selfish bastard than a tragic soul).

Basically, his primary inner conflict is that his Assassin duty puts him at odds with Elise... but he doesn't actually seem to care too much about his Assassin duty. People say his introspective monologue at the end felt unearned, and that's why.

It almost feels to me like Arno was written to be a traitor to the Brotherhood and become a Templar alongside Elise (which would also make a hell of a lot more sense as a continuation of the "Eve seducing Adam with the Apple" motifs in the beginning) but they didn't want to pull the trigger on that idea for fear of backlash, so they retooled it and gave us Rogue.

CourtlyShelf2
12-27-2015, 10:11 PM
i kinda of liked arno but him sleeping with his adoptive sister was just strange and i found nasty i think thats the second time ubisoft has done some type of incest storyline granted not as nasty as the borgias but still strange and nasty

Sesheenku
12-28-2015, 02:36 AM
@sesheenku, I like Arno. I could relate with him because he was human. He was awesome at times and needed help at times. There can not ever be a protagonist better than Arno because Arno was perfect.

Like I said let's keep it friendly now.

Talking in absolutes is a bad idea.

I like him too but hey I'm not biased either.

LoyalACFan
12-28-2015, 12:55 PM
i kinda of liked arno but him sleeping with his adoptive sister was just strange and i found nasty i think thats the second time ubisoft has done some type of incest storyline granted not as nasty as the borgias but still strange and nasty

Eh, from what I understand Elise was off getting a fancy education and rubbing shoulders with Templars throughout most of their adolescent/teen years, so they didn't really see each other enough to have a brother/sister relationship. At any rate, it's been pretty common throughout much of history for people to marry their cousins, and this would be far less incestuous than that since Arno and Elise aren't related by blood.

EaglePrince25
12-28-2015, 03:57 PM
Eh, from what I understand Elise was off getting a fancy education and rubbing shoulders with Templars throughout most of their adolescent/teen years, so they didn't really see each other enough to have a brother/sister relationship. At any rate, it's been pretty common throughout much of history for people to marry their cousins, and this would be far less incestuous than that since Arno and Elise aren't related by blood.

There's also the fact that while Arno was taken care of by Elise's family he wasn't formally adopted to the point that her parents were calling him son or anything. Believe in the Unity novel in fact, after reading part of Elise's journal, he mentions that he wasn't even close to Elise's mother and only remembers her death from a distance. So it was somewhat different from the way we think of adoptions today. There being a strict line between the adult de la Serre's and Arno, in which neither is his parent so to speak, keeps any real incestous implications from entering into the equation in my opinion.

CrossedEagle
12-28-2015, 06:50 PM
^Agreed.

I like Arno. I wonder how people would react to him if all of the time and money that had been devoted to co-op had been devoted to a longer campaign and better side missions. I wish we would get more games set in Napoleonic France because I'm really interested in that era.

Ureh
12-28-2015, 11:41 PM
I have to admit, my opinion of Arno has deteriorated a little over time. I used to be ambivalent toward him, but now I actually sort of dislike him, mostly because it's hard to nail down who he actually is. Is he a guy who chooses to join up with a secret underground death cult on a drunken whim, or is he a guy who just wants to settle down with the girl he loves and escape from it all? Because the latter seems to be a MUCH more powerful motivator for him throughout most of the story, but for some reason he stays with the Assassins even when, by nature, it's at direct odds with that goal. And he didn't even like the Brotherhood. If his quest was really for "redemption," as he claimed so passionately, why are the stuffy, hopelessly bureaucratic Assassins a necessary stepping stone to that end when Elise is already off avenging?

Yeah sometimes the story feels like it's fragmented or condensed, there are things that are not explained very well if at all. Arno seems like he's trying to be everyone's bff but he's just spread too thin over a large area.
I just assumed that his father's past affiliation with the Assassins contributed to that decision. I might be wrong but it looks like he might blame himself for his father's death (maybe he keeps asking himself, "What if I had obeyed my father and stayed in that chair? Would he still be alive?" Would Shay have proceeded to take Charles' life if he saw that he had a child?). I wonder if he would've joined the Assassins much early on if Francois hadn't "claimed" him first. As for not joining Elise right away, I guessing that it was because she wanted to have nothing to do with him when it turned out that Arno was at least partially responsible for Francois' death as well.


It's not like the Assassins ever provided him with any backup or tactical aid (except Bellec, who he ends up killing). Don't say it's because he feels an obligation to the people; Arno never gave a rat's *** about the revolution, side missions be damned; the co-op missions were just assignments he received from the Brotherhood, and the Paris Stories are just filler content. And that actually would have been okay as a character trait; somebody who just wants to stay out of it, get away and marry his girl. That'd be fine, except he constantly working against himself to such an extent that it's hard to feel much pity for him (especially when he collapses into violent drunkenness, making him look more like a selfish bastard than a tragic soul).

Maybe he knew that the Assassins could provide him with the training that he needed for whatever goal he hoped to accomplish, based on what he knew about Charles ("The Assassins have resources, manpower." right?! I guess the story just assumes we already know what these resources are because we've seen how most Assassin groups operate in previous games). Sorta like Ezio and how he was mostly unaware of Giovanni's plans, then he suddenly decides to take on all of his father's work after his death. So let's say Arno is carrying on with his daddy's work, what is it? Do we just assume it's to help those that suffer, to free them from oppression? The in-game story never says outright (we can guess that he does want to help as many people as he can when he speaks to Bellec about crowd events). As for no sign of backup or aid, I think that might just be a result of incomplete, compressed storytelling. It could be that the novels touch on his collaborations between the other Assassins, I haven't read it yet. But I did get the feeling that - aside from the training he had with Bellec and any other Assassins - he was working with other Assassins on some of the missions (ex saving Paton) and they just didn't get centerstage like they usually did (ex: ACB, R, etc). The story just didn't make any large attempt to show him forming bonds with his fellow Assassins, I'm assuming because the story focused mostly on Elise and him. I'm just wondering if it was for gameplay reasons that Council didn't send at least one partner with him on certain missions (ex: destroying Mirabeau's correspondence with the king) or maybe they know he's capable of handling these jobs on his own? Not to mention quite a few of the missions aren't actually sanctioned by the Council, occasionally he's working with Elise so having another Assassin on those missions might divert attention from the romance.


Basically, his primary inner conflict is that his Assassin duty puts him at odds with Elise... but he doesn't actually seem to care too much about his Assassin duty. People say his introspective monologue at the end felt unearned, and that's why.

I think one of the reasons why Arno kept killing targets without approval is that the Council was indecisive, they were constantly disagreeing with each other as to their course of action. So it could be that Arno was fed up and wanted to take things into his own hands, he believes that what he chose to do is what they Assassins should've/would've done. It just so happened that his goals aligned with Elise's goals, they both wanted all of the Templar traitors dead and for the most part seemed very happy to work together towards that goal. What were his Assassin duties before he went "rogue"? I think Bellec and him were complaining about how they were constantly gathering information and not acting on them. My memory is against me, but I never got the impression that the council actually disagreed with most of Arno's action, they only objected to him not asking for permission first.

I know a lot of my thoughts don't make sense, I'm still on my 2nd playthru. Just some of my first impressions...

cawatrooper9
12-29-2015, 03:46 PM
I'm also interested in his wy of collecting his victim's memories. It was a nice new thing in my opinion, but I guess the fans shut it down

I think there was more to it than that.

I get what they were trying to do: "Showing, rather than telling"... but it simply didn't work. The out of order, vague, fast cutscenes that Arno witnessed basically needed gamers to have multiple playthroughs to really understand what was going on. One seemingly innocuous scene in an earlier assassination could be the lynchpin of a memory after another. It was too complex, and with little payoff.

The only advantage to it is that it was a little more of an objective way of showing the Templars in a more sympathetic light, rather than having to rely on their word for their intentions- but it was just so poorly executed.

LoyalACFan
12-29-2015, 04:17 PM
I think there was more to it than that.

I get what they were trying to do: "Showing, rather than telling"... but it simply didn't work. The out of order, vague, fast cutscenes that Arno witnessed basically needed gamers to have multiple playthroughs to really understand what was going on. One seemingly innocuous scene in an earlier assassination could be the lynchpin of a memory after another. It was too complex, and with little payoff.

The only advantage to it is that it was a little more of an objective way of showing the Templars in a more sympathetic light, rather than having to rely on their word for their intentions- but it was just so poorly executed.

Well, that, and the fact that it was completely unexplained. The improbable "death chats" of earlier games could be shrugged off as a stylistic choice, but now all of a sudden Arno can use freaking psychometry to pull memories from corpses? They said something in the marketing about him being "younger and rawer" than previous characters and that was the reason, but it doesn't even begin to make sense. If the flashback scenes had just been a sort of "aside" that gave the Templars context without filtering it through Arno first, sort of like Shaun's database entries for the AC2 Templars, it might have worked better since it wouldn't have necessarily been Arno witnessing the memories, but since he explicitly uses the info he receives in those scenes, it undermines the whole concept.

Bipolar Matt
12-29-2015, 04:32 PM
Well, that, and the fact that it was completely unexplained. The improbable "death chats" of earlier games could be shrugged off as a stylistic choice, but now all of a sudden Arno can use freaking psychometry to pull memories from corpses? They said something in the marketing about him being "younger and rawer" than previous characters and that was the reason, but it doesn't even begin to make sense. If the flashback scenes had just been a sort of "aside" that gave the Templars context without filtering it through Arno first, sort of like Shaun's database entries for the AC2 Templars, it might have worked better since it wouldn't have necessarily been Arno witnessing the memories, but since he explicitly uses the info he receives in those scenes, it undermines the whole concept.

Arno outright says after assassinating Lafreniere, "in his memories, I saw." They never go into explaining this though, whether this a form of psychometry or an extension of Eagle Sense or what have you.

cawatrooper9
12-29-2015, 05:11 PM
Well, that, and the fact that it was completely unexplained. The improbable "death chats" of earlier games could be shrugged off as a stylistic choice, but now all of a sudden Arno can use freaking psychometry to pull memories from corpses? They said something in the marketing about him being "younger and rawer" than previous characters and that was the reason, but it doesn't even begin to make sense. If the flashback scenes had just been a sort of "aside" that gave the Templars context without filtering it through Arno first, sort of like Shaun's database entries for the AC2 Templars, it might have worked better since it wouldn't have necessarily been Arno witnessing the memories, but since he explicitly uses the info he receives in those scenes, it undermines the whole concept.

True. For the most part, the "death chats" were just there to represent doubt in the Assassins' minds- relevant information for the plot was rarely provided (one exception that comes to mind is Tarik telling Ezio of his plan). Arno actually learned a lot from these scenes, so it made it more necessary for players to come reconcile that.