PDA

View Full Version : The Red Baron on NOVA



T_O_A_D
06-13-2004, 07:43 PM
Nova sent me this.

Looks like it will be on here in Southwest Missouri

Who Killed the Red Baron? Jun 15, 7:00PM

Who Killed the Red Baron? Jun 19, 6:00AM

Who Killed the Red Baron? Jun 20, 11:00AM



Next on NOVA: "Who Killed the Red Baron?"

http://www.pbs.org/nova/redbaron/

Broadcast: June 15, 2004
(NOVA airs Tuesday on PBS at 8 p.m. Check your local listings as
dates and times may vary.)

On April 21, 1918, Manfred von Richthofen, Germany's most feared
fighter ace known as the "Red Baron," took off on patrol over the
Somme Valley with his notorious "Flying Circus." What happened next
has divided historians and air buffs for decades. NOVA's new
investigation of the Red Baron's death presents newly discovered
documents that overturn the conventional theory of his demise. In
accounting for the Baron's singular success, "Who Killed the Red
Baron?" explores the origins of the first fighter planes and the
evolution of aerial tactics, with thrilling re-enactments of
hair-raising duels between the fragile fighters of World War I. On
the companion Web site, hear from the Baron himself, review other
prominent theories about his death, see the Great War's most
celebrated planes and aces, and learn about the many Americans who
flew against the Baron.

Here's what you'll find on the companion Web site:

Articles

Inside the Baron's Mind
Manfred von Richthofen's writings reveal a supremely confident
man who wound up resigned to his fate.

Americans Against the Baron
Hundreds of young U.S. pilots joined Allied forces as they
battled the Germans in the skies over Europe.

Overview and Slide Show

Explore Competing Theories
Conflicting eyewitness accounts have led to many possible
scenarios for the Red Baron's death.

The Aerial Arms Race
New models of fighter planes on both sides of the conflict
spurred a game of cat and mouse between daring aces.

Resources

Program Transcript
Related Links and Books
Teacher's Guide

http://www.pbs.org/nova/redbaron/

Have you checked your Private Topics recently? (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=ugtpc&s=400102)
My TrackIR fix, Read the whole thread (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?q=Y&a=tpc&s=400102&f=49310655&m=15310285&p=1)
131st_Toad's Squad link (http://www.geocities.com/vfw_131st/)
http://home.mchsi.com/~131st_vfw/T_O_A_D.jpg

[This message was edited by T_O_A_D on Sun June 13 2004 at 08:30 PM.]

[This message was edited by T_O_A_D on Sun June 13 2004 at 08:37 PM.]

T_O_A_D
06-13-2004, 07:43 PM
Nova sent me this.

Looks like it will be on here in Southwest Missouri

Who Killed the Red Baron? Jun 15, 7:00PM

Who Killed the Red Baron? Jun 19, 6:00AM

Who Killed the Red Baron? Jun 20, 11:00AM



Next on NOVA: "Who Killed the Red Baron?"

http://www.pbs.org/nova/redbaron/

Broadcast: June 15, 2004
(NOVA airs Tuesday on PBS at 8 p.m. Check your local listings as
dates and times may vary.)

On April 21, 1918, Manfred von Richthofen, Germany's most feared
fighter ace known as the "Red Baron," took off on patrol over the
Somme Valley with his notorious "Flying Circus." What happened next
has divided historians and air buffs for decades. NOVA's new
investigation of the Red Baron's death presents newly discovered
documents that overturn the conventional theory of his demise. In
accounting for the Baron's singular success, "Who Killed the Red
Baron?" explores the origins of the first fighter planes and the
evolution of aerial tactics, with thrilling re-enactments of
hair-raising duels between the fragile fighters of World War I. On
the companion Web site, hear from the Baron himself, review other
prominent theories about his death, see the Great War's most
celebrated planes and aces, and learn about the many Americans who
flew against the Baron.

Here's what you'll find on the companion Web site:

Articles

Inside the Baron's Mind
Manfred von Richthofen's writings reveal a supremely confident
man who wound up resigned to his fate.

Americans Against the Baron
Hundreds of young U.S. pilots joined Allied forces as they
battled the Germans in the skies over Europe.

Overview and Slide Show

Explore Competing Theories
Conflicting eyewitness accounts have led to many possible
scenarios for the Red Baron's death.

The Aerial Arms Race
New models of fighter planes on both sides of the conflict
spurred a game of cat and mouse between daring aces.

Resources

Program Transcript
Related Links and Books
Teacher's Guide

http://www.pbs.org/nova/redbaron/

Have you checked your Private Topics recently? (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=ugtpc&s=400102)
My TrackIR fix, Read the whole thread (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?q=Y&a=tpc&s=400102&f=49310655&m=15310285&p=1)
131st_Toad's Squad link (http://www.geocities.com/vfw_131st/)
http://home.mchsi.com/~131st_vfw/T_O_A_D.jpg

[This message was edited by T_O_A_D on Sun June 13 2004 at 08:30 PM.]

[This message was edited by T_O_A_D on Sun June 13 2004 at 08:37 PM.]

WUAF_Badsight
06-13-2004, 10:23 PM
so what was the conclusion ?

NZ here & i doubt that it will ever screen here

was it the 2 fighters in his last battle (or is that just a myth that there were 2 that he was fighting in his last DF)

or was it ground fire ?

.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
actual UBI post :
"If their is a good server with wonder woman views but historic planesets...let me know!"
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Mitlov47
06-13-2004, 10:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by T_O_A_D:
Next on NOVA: "Who Killed the Red Baron?"

http://www.pbs.org/nova/redbaron/
...
On April 21, 1918, Manfred von Richthofen, Germany's most feared
fighter ace known as the "Red Baron," took off on patrol over the
Somme Valley with his notorious "Flying Circus." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

*gasp* NOVA is part of the vast international conspiracy to cover up the legacy of Germany's "other" best fighting ace!

Hey, somebody had to say it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Anyway, looks cool, but I don't think they'll ever figure out if it was ground fire or a fighter that took him down. My bet is on ground fire, but you can't prove that sort of thing.

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/387_1086736236_p-63sigimage.jpg

Biloxi72
06-14-2004, 06:29 AM
S!
I remeber seeing something simillar to this on the History channel here in the states. Except it was done by scientists and archeologists who used lasers, old topo maps and such. They investigated if he wasshot down from the ground or by the chasing british pilot. They found the actual field and spot where his plane crashed by having an old man who was there as a boy show them the spot. They then used a game like FB to make out RB's flight over the area and the shots being fired on himby the British Pilot. They then took Englands best trap/skeet man and put him behind a lewis gun mounted on a tripod on the ground, which had a laser attached to it. They then had a pilot in a biplane fly the altitude and path RB flew by the gunner.
It was all very well done and scientifically it proved that RB was shot down by the British pilot, and he was near dead when he crashed.

SKIDRO_79FS
06-14-2004, 09:59 AM
The Investigating History episode which Rufshod speaks of concluded that von Richtofen was downed by ground fire, not a pilot. I have the episode on tape somewhere...

http://server6.uploadit.org/files/SKIDRO-signatureimg.jpg
VICTORY BY VALOR, GENTLEMEN TO THE END

Zyzbot
06-14-2004, 10:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RufShod:
S!
I remeber seeing something simillar to this on the History channel here in the states. Except it was done by scientists and archeologists who used lasers, old topo maps and such. They investigated if he wasshot down from the ground or by the chasing british pilot. They found the actual field and spot where his plane crashed by having an old man who was there as a boy show them the spot. They then used a game like FB to make out RB's flight over the area and the shots being fired on himby the British Pilot. They then took Englands best trap/skeet man and put him behind a lewis gun mounted on a tripod on the ground, which had a laser attached to it. They then had a pilot in a biplane fly the altitude and path RB flew by the gunner.
It was all very well done and scientifically it proved that RB was shot down by the British pilot, and he was near dead when he crashed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I saw that show but you got their conclusion wrong...they concluded that it was ground fire.

Geshausen
06-14-2004, 01:04 PM
Rufshod, I also believe the pilot that claimed the kill was Canadian if I am not mistaken.

Imperial Studmuffin

All your yak are belong to us!

www.wtfiml33t.com (http://www.wtfiml33t.com)

SKIDRO_79FS
06-14-2004, 01:29 PM
Uh, didn't I already say that? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif

The PBS show concludes it was a different person but none the less both found it was someone on the ground.

A link to the PBS show:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/redbaron/theories.html

http://server6.uploadit.org/files/SKIDRO-signatureimg.jpg
VICTORY BY VALOR, GENTLEMEN TO THE END

Tonkin
06-14-2004, 01:50 PM
I 've seen the show a number of times on Discovery channel and the conclusion was that he was shot by ground fire from an Australian soldier.

VonKlugermon
06-14-2004, 03:36 PM
Funny, I read this book "Who Killed The Red Baron" (P.J. Carisella and James W. Ryan, 1969) that came to the same conclusion. Aussie gunners (Popkin) killed the Baron. Here's a couple of drawings from that book based on medical examination:

http://www.photobucket.com/albums/1003/willson/baron.jpg

Note that Brown, (in the pursuing Sopwith Camel) was never in a position to pull off this shot. (Unless he had one of those "magic bullets" that Oswald had!)

Willy

SKIDRO_79FS
06-14-2004, 06:00 PM
Why would that be funny when it agrees with what the two shows determined; basically that Brown could not have fired the shot that killed him and it had to have come from one of two possible sources on the ground.

http://server6.uploadit.org/files/SKIDRO-signatureimg.jpg
VICTORY BY VALOR, GENTLEMEN TO THE END

VonKlugermon
06-15-2004, 02:24 PM
Originally posted by SKIDRO_79FS:
Why would that be funny when it agrees with what the two shows determined; basically that Brown could not have fired the shot that killed him and it had to have come from one of two possible sources on the ground.


Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the program, but I found it funny NOT because they came to the same conclusion, but because the book had "proved the point" 30+ years ago!

Willy

Dawg-of-death
06-15-2004, 02:50 PM
Its been on Dicovery Wings ..... go show http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

BadM-F(Mongrel-Fighter)...... AKA Dawg-of-death
Former Member... Kelly Johnsons...Skunk Works

SKIDRO_79FS
06-15-2004, 03:50 PM
My Bad Von Kluggermon, I misread your post, or really I misunderstood what you meant.

I will have to search around and see if I can find that book, it sounds as if it's a good read and was obviously well researched if the author reached the conclusion in the 60's without the benefit of all the scientific methods / tools used in the two television shows that have been mentioned.

http://server6.uploadit.org/files/SKIDRO-signatureimg.jpg
VICTORY BY VALOR, GENTLEMEN TO THE END

VonKlugermon
06-15-2004, 04:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SKIDRO_79FS:
My Bad Von Kluggermon, I misread your post, or really I misunderstood what you meant.

I will have to search around and see if I can find that book, it sounds as if it's a good read and was obviously well researched if the author reached the conclusion in the 60's without the benefit of all the scientific methods / tools used in the two television shows that have been mentioned.

http://server6.uploadit.org/files/SKIDRO-signatureimg.jpg
VICTORY BY VALOR, GENTLEMEN TO THE END<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No problem, Skidro! Good Luck trying to find a copy, mine's a paperback from "Fawcett World Library" publishers. Maybe someone on Ebay or elsewhere has one? Indeed, it is a very good read and offers up some great side-bar stories. For instance, during the medical examination of the Baron, a spent .30 caliber bullet was found near the exit wound. Unfortunately, this bullet was "pocketed" by someone and lost to history. Also, the author(s) actually opened the Baron's original gravesite (in Bertangles, France) and discovered his remains were still there! It seems that only his skull was removed for reburial in Berlin in 1968!
Lastly, though the authors concluded the Baron was killed by ground fire, they did not rule out the possibility that some lone soldier with a .30 caliber rifle did the deed. So, there is still some mystery to the story!

Willy

FLAGRUM_3
06-15-2004, 04:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>


Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the program, but I found it funny NOT because they came to the same conclusion, but because the book had "proved the point" 30+ years ago!

Willy<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm afraid you are wrong..."no point has been proven". Note: It is still in official records that Capt Roy Brown a Canadian has been credited with the downing of the Red Baron.
I have seen these shows (mentioned above) several times and have read many articles on the subject and have found especially with the shows that concluded he was shot from the ground to be very speculative and flawed in their approach.Such as; No acccount mentions the reports from three pilots..Capt Brown,Lt May and Lt Mellersh who were all involved.Lt May being the pilot persued by the Baron, Brown who shot the fatel volley at the Baron and Mellersh who observed from above.Speculations made about the autopsy,no consideration of the Barons sitting position or angle of his plane etc, etc.
Too many assumptions being made for any of these shows accounts to be taken seriously as far as I'm concerned.IMHO

.

VonKlugermon
06-15-2004, 10:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FLAGRUM_3:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>


Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the program, but I found it funny NOT because they came to the same conclusion, but because the book had "proved the point" 30+ years ago!

Willy<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm afraid you are wrong..."no point has been proven". Note: It is still in official records that Capt Roy Brown a Canadian has been credited with the downing of the Red Baron.
I have seen these shows (mentioned above) several times and have read many articles on the subject and have found especially with the shows that concluded he was shot from the ground to be very speculative and flawed in their approach.Such as; No acccount mentions the reports from three pilots..Capt Brown,Lt May and Lt Mellersh who were all involved.Lt May being the pilot persued by the Baron, Brown who shot the fatel volley at the Baron and Mellersh who observed from above.Speculations made about the autopsy,no consideration of the Barons sitting position or angle of his plane etc, etc.
Too many assumptions being made for any of these shows accounts to be taken seriously as far as I'm concerned.IMHO

.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not "wrong", you have your opinion, I have mine. If you can find a copy, read the book I mentioned. (It even includes official and personal accounts by Brown, Mellersh, and May.)

Willy

SKIDRO_79FS
06-16-2004, 02:13 AM
"Official Records" are not necessarily always correct. In my research on the 20th. Fighter Group in World War II I have run across numerous instances of inaccurate information (everything from mis-spelled names to a pilot being listed as killed in a training accident when in fact he was killed on a short hop between Wittering and King's Cliffe and instances where high ranking officers gave away confirmed victories to their wingmen.) So, yes the official documents may say that Brown shot the fatal bullet, but it doesn't necessarily mean that is how it actually happened.

There will probably never be a definitive answer as to what happened so we're all left to speculate and draw our own conclusions based upon the evidence presented.

Funny you mentioned the missing bullet, VonKlugermon, I can remember years ago reading about how a collector had tracked down a piece of canvas from Von Richtofen's plane's and when he finally met with the owner he found it was actually one of the crosses from the fuselage. He shelled out a small fortune for it, as you can imagine, but he now owns probably the most priceless artifact of aerial combat there is.

http://server6.uploadit.org/files/SKIDRO-signatureimg.jpg
VICTORY BY VALOR, GENTLEMEN TO THE END

T_O_A_D
06-16-2004, 03:17 AM
man I missed it I forgot to set tape. I hope I'm not that absent minded this Saturday morning.

Have you checked your Private Topics recently? (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=ugtpc&s=400102)
My TrackIR fix, Read the whole thread (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?q=Y&a=tpc&s=400102&f=49310655&m=15310285&p=1)
Commanding Officer of the 131st_VFW (http://www.geocities.com/vfw_131st/)
http://home.mchsi.com/~131st_vfw/T_O_A_D.jpg

PikeBishop
06-16-2004, 03:34 AM
Just flinging my own spanner in...........I saw those programs and just feel that it is known that the shot was fired at a long range - 500 - 800 yards, because the bullet was found in the Baron's tunic and 'spent'. It is known that the path indicates that it was fired from the side. So we effectively have a target which the aimer has a full deflection at, at least 500yds with no bank on........not worth the effort I'd say, if you were a pilot. Also if he was aware of being chased and therefore would turn to face his attacker this would be presented (at 500yds+) for less than 5 secs AND with back on (meaning a path from above) Clearly there was bank because this would present a side shot to the ground.
If it was in a reasonably close dogfight it is more likely that the bullet would not be spent and trajectory would apparently come from above as with Lanoe Hawker.
So from my point of view the bullet has a most unlikely trajectory to come from another aircraft but a very likely trajectory to come from ground fire when range and angle are considered.......it had to have come from the ground.
Best regards,

SLP

FLAGRUM_3
06-16-2004, 01:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VonKlugermon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FLAGRUM_3:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>


Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the program, but I found it funny NOT because they came to the same conclusion, but because the book had "proved the point" 30+ years ago!

Willy<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm afraid you are wrong..."no point has been proven". Note: It is still in official records that Capt Roy Brown a Canadian has been credited with the downing of the Red Baron.
I have seen these shows (mentioned above) several times and have read many articles on the subject and have found especially with the shows that concluded he was shot from the ground to be very speculative and flawed in their approach.Such as; No acccount mentions the reports from three pilots..Capt Brown,Lt May and Lt Mellersh who were all involved.Lt May being the pilot persued by the Baron, Brown who shot the fatel volley at the Baron and Mellersh who observed from above.Speculations made about the autopsy,no consideration of the Barons sitting position or angle of his plane etc, etc.
Too many assumptions being made for any of these shows accounts to be taken seriously as far as I'm concerned.IMHO

.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not "wrong", you have your opinion, I have mine. If you can find a copy, read the book I mentioned. (It even includes official and personal accounts by Brown, Mellersh, and May.)

Willy<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not questioning your opinion here, I'm just saying that nothing has been "proven" as you stated in your post.The experts are still trying to figure it out to this day and as I mentioned in my earlier post, these so called experts are making alot of assumptions to come to thier conclusions.Alot is unknown about what happened that day.It probably will never be figured out so as so many other things the official record stands.

VonKlugermon
06-16-2004, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by FLAGRUM_3:

I'm not questioning your opinion here, I'm just saying that nothing has been "proven" as you stated in your post.The experts are still trying to figure it out to this day and as I mentioned in my earlier post, these so called experts are making alot of assumptions to come to thier conclusions.Alot is unknown about what happened that day.It probably will never be figured out so as so many other things the official record stands.


Precisely my reason for utilizing the quotation marks. The book "proved the point" 30+ years ago, but that proof, while very convincing, is undeniably open to interpretation. Unless some new and irrefutable evidence comes to light, there will always be some doubt as to what really happened.

Willy

Dammerung
06-16-2004, 03:07 PM
To be specific, the Red Baron was killed by a tracer from an Aussie Machinegun.

Oh, there are no fighter pilots down in hell...
Oh, there are no fighter pilots down in hell...
The whole damn place is full of queers, navigators, and bombadiers...
Oh, there are no fighter pilots down in hell...

T_O_A_D
06-16-2004, 06:51 PM
Too bad we don't have the exact guns laying around so we could do ballistics. That is if the bullet was archived.

I watch a show awhile back about Custers last stand. They were able to recover bullets from the battle field and match them to guns still in museums and private collections today.

Have you checked your Private Topics recently? (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=ugtpc&s=400102)
My TrackIR fix, Read the whole thread (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?q=Y&a=tpc&s=400102&f=49310655&m=15310285&p=1)
Commanding Officer of the 131st_VFW (http://www.geocities.com/vfw_131st/)
http://home.mchsi.com/~131st_vfw/T_O_A_D.jpg