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Namikaze_17
10-03-2015, 03:02 PM
Hey, everyone!

With Syndicate being less than three weeks away, I figured I'd share my a bit of my, well... issue regarding one of the games' more interesting attractions - Evie Frye. Now before we start, this isn't to necessarily bash Evie or to give any sort of praise to Jacob, the latter being nearly irrelevant to the topic as he does "add" to Evie which is something I'll get to later.

Alright, now we got that out of the way, let's get started! :cool:

So as we all know, Evie is considered the "brains of the operation" between the twins - she's also more stealthy, shrewd, and more task-oriented than her brother in fact. This in turn, makes her favorable and seen as the 'Ideal Assassin' in many peoples eyes which I think has covered up the main flaw in her characterization which is the fact that there really isn't one because she comes off too, well... perfect. (https://youtu.be/BqxPxaa5Wn8) Now hear me out, being an ideal isn't bad per se, Alta´r in fact, was considered one. However, where Evie differs from Alta´r is that the latter was incredibly arrogant and selfish at first - this in turn would eventually lead to Alta´r losing his rank and his character arc begins. Evie on the other hand, has nothing to initially dislike about her character, nothing makes her tick, and this frankly makes her bland in a way. But that might be the point I think...

I'd also like to compare Evie to Haytham in the sense that Haytham best shined in his interactions with someone that opposed him, someone that challenged his beliefs and essentially brought out the his true self - that person was Connor. Jacob, like Connor, is the opposing factor to Evie - he's the one that brings out Evie's true self in their interactions - he makes her shine like the sun which I'd like to think is Jacob's purpose. Because without Jacob, Evie is arguably very shallow and really has nothing unique to her so far other than a perceived idea of what an Assassin should be.

Whew, that was long... hope it didn't come off the wrong way. :p

But what do you guys think? Do you think there's more to Evie? Feel free to discuss!

EmptyCrustacean
10-03-2015, 03:38 PM
I think we should wait until we play the game. The devs and the VA have both said Evie's need to plan everything and not just throw herself in is one of her biggest flaws. I also think her love of her father and need to honour his memory is a flaw as seen with her heated argument with Jacob.

LoyalACFan
10-03-2015, 04:34 PM
I think we should wait until we play the game.

This. But I do kinda worry that Ubisoft, tripping over themselves to make a good female character after last year's debacle, will be too afraid to take any risks with her character and she'll come off as slightly Mary Sue-ish.

Hans684
10-03-2015, 04:57 PM
╔lise is more interest, she got flaws.

BananaBlighter
10-03-2015, 05:01 PM
I think we should wait until we play the game.

Agreed. Who knows what sort of character arc she may have. In some ways I agree with Namikaze, that there isn't much going on with her without Jacob, and that so far she seems to 'perfect', but it's too early to tell, since all we've seen is sequence 3 and 7.

I-Like-Pie45
10-03-2015, 05:13 PM
No Jacob is just jealous that he can't dress like a girl like Evie can while Evie can dress like a boy all she wants and no one will bat an eye so that's what makes him really insecure and brash and not perfect like she is

RegeRoka
12-27-2015, 04:21 PM
I'd also like to compare Evie to Haytham in the sense that Haytham best shined in his interactions with someone that opposed him, someone that challenged his beliefs and essentially brought out the his true self - that person was Connor. Jacob, like Connor, is the opposing factor to Evie - he's the one that brings out Evie's true self in their interactions - he makes her shine like the sun which I'd like to think is Jacob's purpose. Because without Jacob, Evie is arguably very shallow and really has nothing unique to her so far other than a perceived idea of what an Assassin should be.


That's because they are introverted. You don't know much about them, because they are not always shouting/stating out their feelings, thoughts, or ideas. They are not initiatory (is this the right word?). That's why they need someone to challenge them (for us to know them better).
In the game Evie talks to herself, just like Jacob, so some things get out, but not much. She is matter of fact, unlike Jacob and the other extroverted characters. They work better with their opposite, tranquil character too. It's a nice contrast, but not a must for loud people.
That's my taking on this anyway.

cawatrooper9
12-28-2015, 04:27 PM
I know the phrases "Mary Sue" and "Gary Stu" have been thrown about lately (particularly with Rey in the new Star Wars movies), and it kind of sounds like that's the case here, but here's my take on it: sometimes characters need to have a tragic flaw as a part of their characterization. Then, sometimes, part of their characterization is actually that they seemingly have no or little flaws. If we were to require all characters in fiction to be brooding/sad/emotional people with a specific hamartia, then we've just created a template for characters that we're expecting others to rigorously follow- and that's really bad.

So, the fact that she's the "good one"/the "smart one" or whatever positive light you see her in, that's not necessarily a bad thing- it's part of her character, and it's actually pretty realistic, still. After all, while no one's perfect, some people are much better at seeming like they are.

VestigialLlama4
12-28-2015, 04:40 PM
I know the phrases "Mary Sue" and "Gary Stu" have been thrown about lately (particularly with Rey in the new Star Wars movies), and it kind of sounds like that's the case here, but here's my take on it: sometimes characters need to have a tragic flaw as a part of their characterization. Then, sometimes, part of their characterization is actually that they seemingly have no or little flaws. If we were to require all characters in fiction to be brooding/sad/emotional people with a specific hamartia, then we've just created a template for characters that we're expecting others to rigorously follow- and that's really bad.

So, the fact that she's the "good one"/the "smart one" or whatever positive light you see her in, that's not necessarily a bad thing- it's part of her character, and it's actually pretty realistic, still. After all, while no one's perfect, some people are much better at seeming like they are.

I am so happy to not know what "Mary Sue" means.

The thing is Evie and Jacob are both bland characters, and both of them lack depth. It's part of the style of Syndicate. My problem with Evie in Syndicate is more that she gets to do 2 of 9 Assassinations while her kid brother handles 7, and she is maid "the Lore Girl". So to me, while the cutscenes say she is the best and most talented assassin, the game doesn't give us enough for her to show she is better than Jacob.

cawatrooper9
12-28-2015, 05:14 PM
I am so happy to not know what "Mary Sue" means.

Well, I could explain it, but perhaps in this case ignorance is bliss. After all, it really isn't an argument worth knowing anyway.



My problem with Evie in Syndicate is more that she gets to do 2 of 9 Assassinations while her kid brother handles 7, and she is maid "the Lore Girl". So to me, while the cutscenes say she is the best and most talented assassin, the game doesn't give us enough for her to show she is better than Jacob.
I sort of liked the "lore girl" thing actually, but I don't think they really delivered on it. The game implies that Jake and Evie have this big falling out over which strategy is best to save London- the POEs, or rallying the gangs together. Now, we only get a few "lore" missions, and Jacob actually helps with one! Otherwise, Evie also spends a lot of time cleaning up Jacob's messes- which, while it shows the difference between their characters, actually builds on his character as much as her own, really. (Also, I absolutely agree that it's a shame Evie got snubbed on the number of Assassinations available to her.)

Jacob, meanwhile, is supposedly spearheading his strategy to band the gangs together, but his missions don't really revolve around that very much. Instead, the gang stuff can be completed by either character, and the famous "We are Jacob AND Evie Frye..." line after liberating a district absolutely contradicts the idea that Evie doesn't much support the gang strategy, nor does it really support the idea that there has been a falling out between the twins. Basically, if they had actually stuck to these characters' motivations, the game could've made their characterizations pretty good- but as it is, it just comes across as messy, confusing, and unnecessary.

SixKeys
12-29-2015, 11:40 AM
I sort of liked the "lore girl" thing actually, but I don't think they really delivered on it. The game implies that Jake and Evie have this big falling out over which strategy is best to save London- the POEs, or rallying the gangs together. Now, we only get a few "lore" missions, and Jacob actually helps with one! Otherwise, Evie also spends a lot of time cleaning up Jacob's messes- which, while it shows the difference between their characters, actually builds on his character as much as her own, really. (Also, I absolutely agree that it's a shame Evie got snubbed on the number of Assassinations available to her.)

Jacob, meanwhile, is supposedly spearheading his strategy to band the gangs together, but his missions don't really revolve around that very much. Instead, the gang stuff can be completed by either character, and the famous "We are Jacob AND Evie Frye..." line after liberating a district absolutely contradicts the idea that Evie doesn't much support the gang strategy, nor does it really support the idea that there has been a falling out between the twins. Basically, if they had actually stuck to these characters' motivations, the game could've made their characterizations pretty good- but as it is, it just comes across as messy, confusing, and unnecessary.

I finally finished the game last night, so I don't have to worry so much about spoilers anymore (besides JTR DLC). :p
This was my problem with the story. The twins' supposed differences over their methods didn't really come through outside of cut scenes. You could play Evie as reckless and Jacob as stealthy (the latter even getting almost all the main stealth missions). IMO their skills should have been tied more exclusively to their characters. It didn't make sense that Evie could hire Rooks when she spent half the game scoffing at the idea. Calling upon Rooks should have been Jacob's specialty. Similarly, Jacob shouldn't have had so many stealth options. Evie criticized Jacob for creating a mess everywhere he went, but when I used her to drive a carriage, she would wreak just as much destruction. :p Both should have had stricter limitations that made sense for their character. It would also have given more reason to switch between them every now and then. I spent 95% of my time in freeroam as Evie. Jacob didn't seem to have any useful skills that made it worthwhile to switch to him. IMO the missions where we're allowed to drive recklessly should have been restricted to Jacob, and the ones where we're supposed to keep the carriage from being damaged should have been for Evie. Evie shouldn't have used guns at all, since she favors throwing knives, and vice versa for Jacob. It's like the devs were too afraid of making them different in gameplay, so their characters end up inconsistent in the story too.

MikeFNY
12-29-2015, 12:12 PM
The twins' supposed differences over their methods didn't really come through outside of cut scenes..

Brilliant analysis.

But I'm afraid that's what you get when you raise the white flag and surrender to all the "female protagonist" outcry.

The series was never about multiple protagonists but this time the developers had to reluctantly add a female protagonist to be politically correct and the end result was two characters who are 100% identical.

Just like you, I played all side missions with Evie but after making the terrible mistake of unlocking the Chameleon skill, I had to conclude them with Jacob and know what, I noticed no difference whatsoever. In all fairness it seemed that with Jacob I had to be more careful because he makes more "noise" but other than that there was zero difference between the two.

In the end if you ask a simple question, "Would it have made a different if it was just one assassin?", the answer is no and this clearly shows why the two-assassin project failed miserably.

Not to mention all the "i like Jacob, no I like Evie" debates going on as a clear demonstration that even if the game is about two assassins gamers are still choosing either one or the other. That's not what I call team work.

Personally, I would have introduced the first protagonist in Sequence 1, with his own unique skills, the second protagonist in Sequence 2, and from Sequence 3 onwards you get to play and finish the game with only one of them, the one you like the most. Incidentally that would have given us, the players, the possibility of playing the game twice, first with him and then with her.

And just for the record, because it seems one has to be extremely careful in what he says nowadays, I would have said the same had this been a game about a female protagonist with a male protagonist added at a later stage.

D.I.D.
12-29-2015, 12:26 PM
But I'm afraid that's what you get when you raise the white flag and surrender to all the "female protagonist" outcry.

The series was never about multiple protagonists but this time the developers had to reluctantly add a female protagonist to be politically correct and the end result was two characters who are 100% identical.

At what point do you think they "reluctantly" added a female character to be politically correct?

Is it your assertion that they added Evie only after the Unity co-op controversy, and that until then Jacob was the only character in development for Syndicate?

SixKeys
12-29-2015, 12:35 PM
But I'm afraid that's what you get when you raise the white flag and surrender to all the "female protagonist" outcry.

The series was never about multiple protagonists but this time the developers had to reluctantly add a female protagonist to be politically correct and the end result was two characters who are 100% identical.

Oh, you mean like how AC3 had two protagonists (Haytham and Connor) who were 100% identical in gameplay? Or how Liberation had a mission that you could play as Connor for no reason at all? Much pandering, very white flag, wow. :rolleyes:



Personally, I would have introduced the first protagonist in Sequence 1, with his own unique skills, the second protagonist in Sequence 2, and from Sequence 3 onwards you get to play and finish the game with only one of them, the one you like the most. Incidentally that would have given us, the players, the possibility of playing the game twice, first with him and then with her.

I don't understand how this would have worked in practice. The story is about two siblings. How would you have told the story from only one perspective without having to create two different sets of cut scenes? (Which would have taken an enormous amount of space.)

As for people arguing over which sibling is their favorite, I don't see how that's at all strange. People argue over who was better, Haytham or Connor, and AC3 was mainly Connor's story. People argue who's better in ACR, Alta´r or Ezio. People argue that Elise was better than Arno, and she only appeared in two or three missions. It's got nothing to do with the creators failing at their jobs to make both characters equally likable, it's simply down to personal preferences.

MikeFNY
12-29-2015, 12:44 PM
At what point do you think they "reluctantly" added a female character to be politically correct?

I apologise, should have made it clear that mine was a personal conclusion.

I don't know what happened in Unity, I never played in co-op mode, I achieved the 100% synch playing in private.

So my conclusion is not based on that no, but rather on a number of facts:

a. The game was always about a single protagonist yet when they added a female protagonist, they still kept the male assassin
b. The female protagonist was added a year after Alex Amancio was lambasted for his "a female protagonist would double the workload" comment
c. In the end the protagonists are identical, no different in skills whatsoever

For me Evie was the result of, "Look guys, whether we like it or not we have to add a female protagonist to the game. And not just for eye candy, but she has to play an important role so let's make her the mature one who cleans the mess left but her brother, let's give her a unique outfit after you get all the music boxes and let's give her a DLC."


Oh, you mean like how AC3 had two protagonists (Haytham and Connor) who were 100% identical in gameplay? Or how Liberation had a mission that you could play as Connor for no reason at all? Much pandering, very white flag, wow. :rolleyes:

I don't remember any of Ubisoft's directors being criticised for comments he made about the lack of multiple protagonists prior to AC3 so the decision to have two protagonists in AC3 was spontaneous, an experiment if you like. As you correctly pointed out it brought very little in terms of gameplay, it was probably a wake up call as to why two protagonists in the series would probably never work.

Yet they did it again. Coincidence? Is it a coincidence a female protagonist was added exactly a year after Amancio's comment? Which let's face it, taken out of context it looks like a silly comment but maybe what he meant is exactly what you said previously, that it "would have taken an enormous amount of space". Which is ultimately why, when the idea was finally executed, it was not done properly.

D.I.D.
12-29-2015, 01:26 PM
I apologise, should have made it clear that mine was a personal conclusion.

I don't know what happened in Unity, I never played in co-op mode, I achieved the 100% synch playing in private.

So my conclusion is not based on that no, but rather on a number of facts:

a. The game was always about a single protagonist yet when they added a female protagonist, they still kept the male assassin
b. The female protagonist was added a year after Alex Amancio was lambasted for his "a female protagonist would double the workload" comment
c. In the end the protagonists are identical, no different in skills whatsoever

For me Evie was the result of, "Look guys, whether we like it or not we have to add a female protagonist to the game. And not just for eye candy, but she has to play an important role so let's make her the mature one who cleans the mess left but her brother, let's give her a unique outfit after you get all the music boxes and let's give her a DLC."


Amancio's "double the workload" comment came just before Unity was released. In interviews with the casting directors, character designers, the creative director, the writers and the two actors, lots of detail has been revealed about how much development both characters went through.

Originally Jacob and Evie were unrelated, then they moved to making her a younger sister, then an older sister, and eventually the twins idea was settled on. Both actors were cast at the same time, and they had to be because they were being cast for chemistry, so shortlisted actors were tried in pairs to see how they worked. The first auditions asked for Evie and Jacob to be from Yorkshire, so that accent was required, but after the first auditions they changed the pair to a Sussex origin with the accent we finally heard.

That's an awful lot of character development of the two characters as a pair: doesn't sound like panicky damage control to me. Character development is famously a more lengthy process and a more expensive one than players typically imagine it to be. For a quality indie game, you're talking about around $80k http://www.polygon.com/2015/8/29/9222257/how-much-does-it-cost-to-make-one-game-character and that's almost entirely spent on hourly pay for the staff involved (therefore that cost is also a measure of the time spent). Imagine what it's like for a game like Assassin's Creed, with all the knock-on effects for casting, cut-scenes, mo-capped animation done by the voice actors themselves. Just slotting in a character is going to cause chaos; your writing needs to be changed, your mission design needs to be changed, your animation, everything. There is virtually nothing in the process that would not need to be begun again.

As Six Keys points out, secondary protags are not new and they've never offered anything different. Just because Haytham was raised as an assassin is no reason for him to continue to use the hidden blade, but he does in order to keep the gameplay consistent.

cawatrooper9
12-29-2015, 03:48 PM
But I'm afraid that's what you get when you raise the white flag and surrender to all the "female protagonist" outcry.


I'm sorry, but how does having a female protagonist make it so that you can't have protagonists with different skills? I don't get your 2+2=5 logic here.


It may have started off that way but it's quite clear that as they began developing Evie they started to prefer her to Jacob.
Ah, of course! That's why Jacob has the majority of Assassinations in the game, and is featured far more heavily in the promotional material... :rolleyes:

SixKeys
12-29-2015, 03:53 PM
Ah, of course! That's why Jacob has the majority of Assassinations in the game, and is featured far more heavily in the promotional material... :rolleyes:

I can't speak for the developers' preferences, but I have to point out that promotional material is entirely the area of the marketing department. TLoU devs had to fight to get Ellie featured on the cover along with Joel, marketing wanted to leave her out.

cawatrooper9
12-29-2015, 04:01 PM
I can't speak for the developers' preferences, but I have to point out that promotional material is entirely the area of the marketing department. TLoU devs had to fight to get Ellie featured on the cover along with Joel, marketing wanted to leave her out.

That's a fair point. Kind of like how (Force Awakens Spoilers below, beware)


Star Wars Episode VII features Daisy Ridley's Rey as the seeming main protagonist and jedi (good job, Hollywood!) while marketing seemed to minimize her role by often citing John Boyega's Finn (also a fantastic character) as the main protagonist and featuring him holding a lightsaber on the poster, implying that he's a jedi even though he wasn't.

MikeFNY
12-29-2015, 05:54 PM
I'm sorry, but how does having a female protagonist make it so that you can't have protagonists with different skills? I don't get your 2+2=5 logic here.

I will try to explain because I was clearly misunderstood.

My problem is not with the female protagonist, it is with the added protagonist, a second assassin, which, and again this is just my personal opinion, I believe it was all down to Ubisoft succumbing to all the pressure about the non female protagonists in the series.

Had it been a male protagonist I would have said the same.

The logic is very simple. Take any mission of the game. pick any of the two, and ask what is the difference after the mission is complete. The answer is none. Regardless who you play the missions with you can complete the mission in the same, exact way, zero difference. Jacob can go stealth and so can Evie. Jacob can battle his way past enemies in combat and so can Evie.

My white flag comment was about Ubisoft making a change that in my opinion they didn't want to do.

But the comment stays even if the second added character was a male. Point is, why add a second character when it's not needed? Unfortunately we ended up with two half characters few are relating with. And also a number of absurd missions such as the fight club missions in the JTR DLC, a 40-year-old woman taking down thugs four times as big as her with the only help of her bare hands.

Also careful when you say Jacob has the majority of Assassinations in the game. If you mean the main story, granted, but remember that AC is also about side missions all of which I took with Evie(albeit four-five) so for me, and I'm sure for others as well, the game was more about her than him. Especially after the DLC.

To be fair, there is one mission where they work in tandem, the very last mission of Dreadful Crimes, which I incidentally loved but is it enough to justify an additional character? For me, no.

Remember how Ubisoft announced the game in May? Together, Jacob and Evie team up to challenge rivals, plutocrats and Templars alike to free the masses from poverty and corruption, and ultimately wrestle back control of London.

Unless I'm wrong one went in a direction and the other went into a complete different direction.

So much for teaming up.

SixKeys
12-29-2015, 07:02 PM
I will try to explain because I was clearly misunderstood.

My problem is not with the female protagonist, it is with the added protagonist, a second assassin, which, and again this is just my personal opinion, I believe it was all down to Ubisoft succumbing to all the pressure about the non female protagonists in the series.

Had it been a male protagonist I would have said the same.

The logic is very simple. Take any mission of the game. pick any of the two, and ask what is the difference after the mission is complete. The answer is none. Regardless who you play the missions with you can complete the mission in the same, exact way, zero difference. Jacob can go stealth and so can Evie. Jacob can battle his way past enemies in combat and so can Evie.

My white flag comment was about Ubisoft making a change that in my opinion they didn't want to do.

So on the one hand you believe Amancio's comment that adding a female protagonist would have doubled the workload, hence why they didn't have one for Unity, yet at the same time you believe they were able to completely rewrite Syndicate's script, create new animations, revise cut scenes and do additional mocapping all within less than a year. Which is it?



But the comment stays even if the second added character was a male. Point is, why add a second character when it's not needed? Unfortunately we ended up with two half characters few are relating with. And also a number of absurd missions such as the fight club missions in the JTR DLC, a 40-year-old woman taking down thugs four times as big as her with the only help of her bare hands.

So what are your thoughts on 60-year-old Ezio parkouring and fighting like in his younger days in ACR? Were you also equally critical of the co-op component in Unity, since it included 3 nameless, faceless male characters for Arno to tackle missions with, without any impact on the story?



To be fair, there is one mission where they work in tandem, the very last mission of Dreadful Crimes, which I incidentally loved but is it enough to justify an additional character? For me, no.

Don't forget the last story mission where they take down Starrick together. He was clearly too powerful for one person to tackle on their own, which is why they needed to work together. In all honesty though, I would have loved to see more than one such mission in the game.

cawatrooper9
12-29-2015, 07:33 PM
The missions are tied to the characters' personal stories. If Evie was only added to throw a bone to those who wanted a female protag and are quite a way through development and realise Evie is the more compelling of the two they're not going to have the TIME to add more missions and narrative for her, are they? :rolleyes:

Perhaps, perhaps not. That relies on quite a few assumptions, so much so that we're barely even in hypothetical territory anymore, but in abstract thought.



I will try to explain because I was clearly misunderstood.

My problem is not with the female protagonist, it is with the added protagonist, a second assassin, which, and again this is just my personal opinion, I believe it was all down to Ubisoft succumbing to all the pressure about the non female protagonists in the series.

Had it been a male protagonist I would have said the same.


Sure, but much like with "FastEnough", your entire premise rests on the unproven assumption that she was added in as a second thought.



But the comment stays even if the second added character was a male. Point is, why add a second character when it's not needed? Unfortunately we ended up with two half characters few are relating with. And also a number of absurd missions such as the fight club missions in the JTR DLC, a 40-year-old woman taking down thugs four times as big as her with the only help of her bare hands.
But that's, just like, your opinion, man. :p
In all seriousness, though, I think Jacob and Evie get a bad rap. Sure, they aren't the most well-rounded Assassins in the series, but they're not too bad either- at least, not everyone thinks so. I guess to each their own.



Also careful when you say Jacob has the majority of Assassinations in the game. If you mean the main story, granted, but remember that AC is also about side missions all of which I took with Evie(albeit four-five) so for me, and I'm sure for others as well, the game was more about her than him. Especially after the DLC.
I think you well know what I mean when I say "assassinations". I'm not talking about side content, and I'm especially not talking about platform exclusive content.




Remember how Ubisoft announced the game in May? Together, Jacob and Evie team up to challenge rivals, plutocrats and Templars alike to free the masses from poverty and corruption, and ultimately wrestle back control of London.

Unless I'm wrong one went in a direction and the other went into a complete different direction.

So much for teaming up.
Look, I'm not saying you're wrong- but maybe, rather than this grand conspiracy theory that some posters like to buy in to (I guess as AC fans, we're apparently prone to that), maybe Ubisoft's final product just didn't meet your expectations? I mean, that's not that crazy of a notion, is it?

MikeFNY
12-29-2015, 08:09 PM
So on the one hand you believe Amancio's comment that adding a female protagonist would have doubled the workload, hence why they didn't have one for Unity, yet at the same time you believe they were able to completely rewrite Syndicate's script, create new animations, revise cut scenes and do additional mocapping all within less than a year. Which is it?

Well I'm afraid we have to respectfully disagree on our point of views especially since it seems you made it a point that my problem is with the female protagonist even if I explained many times that this is not the case.

My comment on Alexandre Amancio's remark was very simple. If the game takes three years to develop and Evie was in the project from day one, why didn't he say anything about it? Why causing a stir by not saying anything about what was in the pipeline? Also didn't Jonathan Cooper say something about taking a day or two to kick start design for a female assassin, although I could be wrong on this one.

Also you're intelligent enough to know that the comparison with Ezio is futile. Ezio was fully-equipped, armour and all and used his sword to battle past enemies. Evie in the DLC is punching the thugs, bare hands, she only uses a weapon to finish them off.

And he wasn't 60, he was 52 if my memory serves me right. Eight years make a difference at that age.


Look, I'm not saying you're wrong- but maybe, rather than this grand conspiracy theory that some posters like to buy in to (I guess as AC fans, we're apparently prone to that), maybe Ubisoft's final product just didn't meet your expectations? I mean, that's not that crazy of a notion, is it?

Absolutely not.

In fact I already said in the other thread that the game was extremely fun but I was disappointed by the story and the characters.

SixKeys
12-30-2015, 12:53 AM
Also you're intelligent enough to know that the comparison with Ezio is futile. Ezio was fully-equipped, armour and all and used his sword to battle past enemies. Evie in the DLC is punching the thugs, bare hands, she only uses a weapon to finish them off.

And he wasn't 60, he was 52 if my memory serves me right. Eight years make a difference at that age.

Sorry, but this doesn't make any sense. You think Evie fighting off thugs at age 40 is less believable than 52-year-old Ezio in heavy armor doing parkour like nobody's business?

You don't have to use a sword with Ezio, you can have him punch his way bare-fisted through enemies as well.

MikeFNY
12-30-2015, 08:38 AM
Sorry, but this doesn't make any sense. You think Evie fighting off thugs at age 40 is less believable than 52-year-old Ezio in heavy armor doing parkour like nobody's business?

You don't have to use a sword with Ezio, you can have him punch his way bare-fisted through enemies as well.

It's funny how much we are on the same wavelength even though we don't share the same point of views.

Yes, that is exactly my point, I was actually going to edit my previous message but I'll just write it here.

AC is not about how realistic it is compared to real life, well, part of it yes, but a lot is about how "unlikely to happen" and "less believable" things can be. The leap of faith, the way you can heal yourself in the middle of a battle, the taking 40 enemies at one go yet still be victorious, bombs that scare people, you name it.

Now as "unlikely to happen" as it can be, Ezio's way of doing things in Revelations, yes, for me, is more believable than Evie taking 20-30 thugs in a fight club.

You are right, maybe Ezio could punch his way out of trouble but he could also kill from distance, something that probably even an 80-year-old with good eyesight could do. One of the nice features of the game is that you decide how realistic to keep it, reason why I didn't use the rope launcher or the chameleon skills during missions in Syndicate, never.

Ultimately it's all about how believable things are in your book. Incidentally, and no sarcasm on his speed please, some do it in real life for fun :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kc0i9LRwPWg

By the way, just in case you find a video of many thugs beaten unconscious by a 40-year-old woman, don't post it, I would take your word of it.

D.I.D.
12-30-2015, 11:47 AM
Assassins are literally freaks of nature. They are genetically different to you and I.

I don't understand what the issue is about degrees of believability. Nobody can take on dozens of people who are trying to kill them. Nobody. It is flat out impossible. That guy is dead. I don't care if it's Bruce Lee or The Mountain, he's dead. If the enemy is also armed with guns, he's dead ten minutes ago. Dead. Did I say, "dead"? If not: dead.

Meanwhile, while people argue whether the best female fighters could hold their own against the top male fighters or not, there is no doubt that there are and always have been plenty of female fighters who could absolutely kick the **** out of most men. Your ability to understand that is tempered only by how much you've seen it happen.

Your ability to find one-woman-vs-the-world fantasy stories credible is similarly coloured by how many you've seen where women do this. If you've grown up with it being an almost exclusively male pursuit in fiction, then maybe you struggle with it more. But you don't fix this by underpowering female superheroes (which is what we're talking about) - you keep making those stories and make them just as normal for female characters as male ones. Otherwise we have superheroes and not-so-superheroes, and women only get to be the latter. If this was about fairness or realism, these characters shouldn't exist at all.

MikeFNY
12-30-2015, 11:54 AM
Assassins are literally freaks of nature. They are genetically different to you and I.

I don't understand what the issue is about degrees of believability.
So in theory you would have no problem if in the next three games of the series the assassin grows wings to climb faster, a magical rollerblade to go faster and a crash helmet to headbutt and kill enemies? Or if the assassin was an alien who came down from a different planet?

You're basically saying that your ability to understand would then be adjusted to accept something so unbelievable just because you see it happen.

I mean make no mistake, I know Syndicate copied many features from Batman and other games but I don't exactly feel like calling assassins superheroes, not yet at least.

MikeFNY
12-30-2015, 12:55 PM
Sorry, I know you're being serious but this has to be one of the silliest things I've read on these forums in quite some time especially as you actually shot yourself in the foot by listing all the ridiculous things Ezio was able to do just as a human being let alone an old timer on his 50s.

Well in that case I apologise, it's probably my poor English preventing me from explaining what I want to explain.

I will try one last time.

Evie is a stealth-based assassin, she can unlock a stealth skill Jacob cannot unlock.

Jacob is a combat-based assassin, he can unlock a combat skill Evie cannot unlock.

In the DLC, the one to step in the Fight Club, a 100% combat, 0% stealth arena is Evie.

For me this makes no sense, it is less believable than all leap of faiths and all unbelievable stuff I saw in the series.

I hope I'm clear now.

Now if we want to say "it's just a videogame", then so be it, then let's throw a unicorn in the fight club arena to clear it from the thugs. I like to keep the game as realistic as possible.

Can you take on 50 enemies without dying? Yes. Do I do it? No, I go stealth.
Can you use a rope launcher to escape from a battle. Yes. Do I do it? No, I run away with a smoke bomb if in trouble.
Can you turn invisible? Yes. Do I do it? No, I take cover.

So as unbelievable as some things can be, they can be avoided, if one wants and I try to avoid them as much as possible. Evie's stepping into the fight club cannot be avoided. It can, in the main game, and I did, here you cannot.

If in the new DLC Jacob is given wings to fly, I would not use them and I would be as critical towards them as I am towards the Fight Club.

Unfortunately you reached the conclusion that I have a problem with the female protagonist and as much as I try to explain that this is not the case, such as that I played 80% of the game with her, things will not change it seems.

cawatrooper9
12-30-2015, 03:34 PM
So in theory you would have no problem if in the next three games of the series the assassin grows wings to climb faster, a magical rollerblade to go faster and a crash helmet to headbutt and kill enemies? Or if the assassin was an alien who came down from a different planet?

You're basically saying that your ability to understand would then be adjusted to accept something so unbelievable just because you see it happen.

I mean make no mistake, I know Syndicate copied many features from Batman and other games but I don't exactly feel like calling assassins superheroes, not yet at least.

http://wp.production.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/files/2014/01/StrawMan2.jpg
Whoa, epic strawman, bro!

To respond seriously to a silly post (I know, I suppose I'm being optimistic here), any superhero- be it Superman or Ant-Man, has a set of powers/abilities/weaknesses that they adhere to. Assassins are no different. It's been established that Superman is incredibly strong, so we don't bat an eye when we see him lift a schoolbus. On the other hand, it's been established that he's weak to Kryptonite, so it makes sense that his abilities take a hit when he's around the stuff.

Assassins are the same. From the first game, we've known that not only do they rely on stealth, but they're genetically different than human beings and this affects their physical abilities. They're good at parkour, have great stamina, are superb fighters, can take more hits than a normal human being, have Eagle Vision, and are more immune to POEs than the average Joe. So, when we see Evie take on 30 thugs, it is quite a feat for her, but her physical prowess as her status as an Assassin has already been established, so it's at least believable. It she grew wings, like you suggest in your ridiculous premise... well, there's no established precedent there, so there's no reason for anyone to believe it.

Take Arno, for instance. The developers tried doing some different stuff with him. He had much less health than regular Assassins and he wasn't as good of a fighter. Both qualities that were revolved specifically around gameplay, so they had relatively mixed reviews, but they didn't really change the lore at all. What was received mostly negatively was his flashback sequences in lieu of White Room Confessions. They didn't make any sense, were never explained in the lore, and weren't really necessary anyway. Ubisoft tried messing with the formula- not quite adding wings, but messes with it nonetheless- and they got burned by the fanbase. We know what we're about.

MikeFNY
12-30-2015, 04:09 PM
Assassins are the same. From the first game, we've known that not only do they rely on stealth, but they're genetically different than human beings and this affects their physical abilities. They're good at parkour, have great stamina, are superb fighters, can take more hits than a normal human being, have Eagle Vision, and are more immune to POEs than the average Joe. So, when we see Evie take on 30 thugs, it is quite a feat for her, but her physical prowess as her status as an Assassin has already been established, so it's at least believable. It she grew wings, like you suggest in your ridiculous premise... well, there's no established precedent there, so there's no reason for anyone to believe it.

I don't mean to be disrespectful but I suggest you read what you post before actually posting it.

Hours ago you were saying how you don't understand what the issue about degrees of believability is. Suddenly, you have an issue with it.

Now I will not call your posts silly and will not post any juvenile images to support my claims, I will bring facts to the table.

You say wings would be a "ridiculous premise" because there is "no established precedent", your words not mine.

What is the established precedent to Arno's disguise skill? I never saw Altair or Ezio or Edward or Connor becoming someone else with the help of magic.

You do realise there is a guy who posted a video on YouTube where he killed the final boss by using this skill?

Or maybe you had no problem with this, you simply archived it as a superhero feature from assassins who are "genetically different than human beings"?

What is the established precedent to Arno's inventory refill skill? I never saw Altair or Ezio or Edward or Connor refilling their inventory from thin air.

So why did people believe these more than they would believe wings? Heck, if for a few seconds this so-called superhero can become somebody else, even a woman, why shouldn't he fly for a few seconds?

Again, you say: it's been established that Superman is incredibly strong, so we don't bat an eye when we see him lift a schoolbus.

And it's always been established that Evie is the master of stealth, not combat. UbIsoft's words, not mine.

"Jacob, a determined, hot-headed and rebellious leader of an underground gang, is vastly different than his sister Evie, a master of stealth and control" - https://www.ubisoft.com/en-US/company/investor_center/detail.aspx?id=202537

“Evie’s missions will be more oriented toward tactical choice and stealth by definition or design, and Jacob’s will be more about confrontation". Again, UbIsoft's words, not mine - http://blog.ubi.com/assassins-creed-syndicate-evie-frye-profile/

So once more, in the same way I thought Arno's disguise skill was "less believable" that all the other "unbelievable" things in the game, I find the so-called "master of stealth and control" fighting in an arena "less believable".

If you believe I'm silly for being disappointed at how the premise of a "master of stealth" assassin was not respected then it seems I'll just be a happy silly chap in your book.

cawatrooper9
12-30-2015, 04:37 PM
Hours ago you were saying how you don't understand what the issue about degrees of believability is. Suddenly, you have an issue with it.

I haven't been on here since yesterday. Perhaps you think I'm someone else?


Now I will not call your posts silly and will not post any juvenile images to support my claims, I will bring facts to the table.
I did not mean that your post was silly, merely your claim about wings... Unless you do think that's a believable premise? And I'll call a strawman like I see 'em, thanks.


You say wings would be a "ridiculous premise" because there is "no established precedent", your words not mine.

What is the established precedent to Arno's disguise skill? I never saw Altair or Ezio or Edward or Connor becoming someone else with the help of magic.

You do realise there is a guy who posted a video on YouTube where he killed the final boss by using this skill?

Or maybe you had no problem with this, you simply archived it as a superhero feature from assassins who are "genetically different than human beings"?

Well, considering how I just spoke on how Arno did break the mold and it left a bad taste in players' mouths, might I suggest:

you read what you post before actually posting it.
Okay, maybe I'm being a little too sassy, and I apologize if I'm coming across a bit smug, but I'd totally agree that Arno's disguise skill, like many of his other skills, is out of place. I didn't mention it because I forgot about it (since I never even use it) but I suppose it could have also easily been lopped in with the rest of the weird out of place skills in Unity.


What is the established precedent to Arno's inventory refill skill? I never saw Altair or Ezio or Edward or Connor refilling their inventory from thin air.
I'm not 100% sure I know what you're talking about here. Is it the fact that Arno could buy new gear from a menu? Because that's relatively limited- he can only do it when on the ground and anonymous, so basically whenever Arno could have gone to a store, but the game doesn't force you to out of convenience. Besides, that's related to the game menu- that's like asking why so many videogame characters have the ability to stop time whenever someone presses the "pause" button.



So why did people believe these more than they would believe wings? Heck, if for a few seconds this so-called superhero can become somebody else, even a woman, why shouldn't he fly for a few seconds?
Again, many other people here (including me) thought the disguise thing was silly too...
A lot of times, the less realistic things in the AC games are relegated to being "Animus Hacks", like the disguise skill- that is, they are things that the Animus has been programmed to do to increase convenience, while making the experience a little more cohesive and preserving realism. The disguise skill represents the fact that Arno could apparently disguise himself well- but the game doesn't force you to spend the likely hours did assembling these disguises. Likewise, Evie's invisibility skill doesn't really mean that she's invisible, but represents that she's really good at hiding. The passage of time is also one of these things (thus, why Desmond didn't have to be in the Animus for decades to see Ezio's life. Language is also one of these- major characters typically speak English (or are at least subtitled) so that we can understand them. The minimap and main map are also technically these, since these weren't physical things that the Assassins owned, but exists to make the player's job easier.

On the other hand, there are also Animus cheats. In Brotherhood, there was a cheat that could make all the horses Unicorns. Black Flag had a cheat that made your crew skeletons. Since your wings thing has no basis in reality whatsoever (and that, my friend, is the key) it would be a cheat, if anything.


Again, you say: it's been established that Superman is incredibly strong, so we don't bat an eye when we see him lift a schoolbus.

And it's always been established that Evie is the master of stealth, not combat. UbIsoft's words, not mine.

"Jacob, a determined, hot-headed and rebellious leader of an underground gang, is vastly different than his sister Evie, a master of stealth and control" - https://www.ubisoft.com/en-US/company/investor_center/detail.aspx?id=202537

So once more, in the same way I thought Arno's disguise skill was "less believable" that all the other "unbelievable" things in the game, I find the so-called "master of stealth and control" fighting in an arena "less believable".

Why? She's still an Assassin (again, proven to be physically far superior to human beings). Just because she's good at stealth doesn't mean she also isn't a good brawler. Go ahead, quote where/if Ubisoft said Evie is a terrible fighter.

MikeFNY
12-30-2015, 04:54 PM
I haven't been on here since yesterday. Perhaps you think I'm someone else?
Yes I did, I confused you with D.I.D. since you quoted my reply to him, sorry for that, I take back the first part of my previous post.


Okay, maybe I'm being a little too sassy, and I apologize if I'm coming across a bit smug, but I'd totally agree that Arno's disguise skill, like many of his other skills, is out of place. I didn't mention it because I forgot about it (since I never even use it) but I suppose it could have also easily been lopped in with the rest of the weird out of place skills in Unity.
No need to apologise, all I ask is to respectfully accept each other's opinion. We're discussing a game, after all. But ultimately this is exactly the point, what feels out of place for each and every one of us. The disguise skill is a clear example of something that feels out of place for both of us. Evie stepping in an arena feels out of place for me, but I'm not imposing my concern on anyone.


I'm not 100% sure I know what you're talking about here.
You're lucky not to know about it :) It took me a while to find its name, it's "Assassins cache", push a button and your inventory will be refilled out of thin air. Is that also an "Animus Hack"? Because seriously, this and disguise combined together are an equally "ridiculous premise" than wings, which by the way, I'm not asking the developers to add in the next game, if they do I'll probably skip the next title.

In the end what I'm asking is: where do we draw a line about what is a "ridiculous premise" and what is a hack or glitch or whatever? We will either call it a videogame about special people who can do all sorts of things or we have to realise that some features, some things we see, are indeed less believable than others.

The disguise skill was silly. We agree. But it was optional. I also never used it.
The assassins cache skill was silly. Maybe we agree. But it was optional. I only used it when going around for collectibles.
The rope launcher.is silly. Maybe we agree. But it was optional. I only used it when going around for collectibles. No I'm lying here, I also used in the very last mission but because I believe I had no other option.
The chameleon skill is silly. Maybe we agree. But it was optional. I never used it.

The master of stealth stepping into an arena was not optional, that is why, for me, it was an equally big problem as the four I mentioned above. It has, absolutely, nothing to do with the fact that assassin in question is a female, although in all fairness considering her age and size, it makes it even more "less believable".

She was introduced as the master of stealth, throughout the game she kept complaining about Jacob's way of dealing with things and then we see her fighting in an arena? This is my concern, it would have also been a concern if the roles were switched.


She's still an Assassin (again, proven to be physically far superior to human beings). Just because she's good at stealth doesn't mean she also isn't a good brawler. Go ahead, quote where/if Ubisoft said Evie is a terrible fighter.
Granted, Ubisoft never said she is a terrible fighter but come on, we both know the original idea was Jacob to be the one for combat and Evie the one for stealth. The fact that both can do either means that this "idea" failed.

cawatrooper9
12-30-2015, 05:55 PM
You're lucky not to know about it :) It took me a while to find its name, it's "Assassins cache", push a button and your inventory will be refilled out of thin air. Is that also an "Animus Hack"? Because seriously, this and disguise combined together are an equally "ridiculous premise" than wings, which by the way, I'm not asking the developers to add in the next game, if they do I'll probably skip the next title.

In the end what I'm asking is: where do we draw a line about what is a "ridiculous premise" and what is a hack or glitch or whatever? We will either call it a videogame about special people who can do all sorts of things or we have to realise that some features, some things we see, are indeed less believable than others.


Ohhhhh, that thing. Yeah, it's pretty dumb, but I think it's just kind of a convenience thing. I also didn't use it, but it's basically just another buff. Is it realistic? Not really in a literal sense, but it represents that at some time Arno refilled his supplies. Still far more realistic than him sprouting wings and flying away.




The master of stealth stepping into an arena was not optional, that is why, for me, it was an equally big problem as the four I mentioned above. It has, absolutely, nothing to do with the fact that assassin in question is a female, although in all fairness considering her age and size, it makes it even more "less believable".

Every single Fight Club or Break Up Fight Club (or whatever JTR called them) was optional... Plus, in the main game you never had to play a Fight Club with Evie. If it bothered you so much, switch to Jake.

Furthermore, if you're referring to the main game, I suppose you had the option to not level up Evie's health or meelee skills, thereby focusing on stealth and making brawl events harder. That way, you could play the game how you want without demanding it fit you standard across the board for everyone else too.

In the JTR DLC, obviously she's a better fighter... she's been a master Assassin for years now! Plus, she can use gadgets to inspire fear. It's not just a simple brawl anymore- and that's even more up Evie's alley anyway.


She was introduced as the master of stealth, throughout the game she kept complaining about Jacob's way of dealing with things and then we see her fighting in an arena? This is my concern, it would have also been a concern if the roles were switched.


Granted, Ubisoft never said she is a terrible fighter but come on, we both know the original idea was Jacob to be the one for combat and Evie the one for stealth. The fact that both can do either means that this "idea" failed.
I think this is a matter of the classic AC fan struggle with what I might call "stealth exclusivity delusion." Again, just because Evie chooses to be stealth does not at all mean that she isn't a great fighter. Plus, Jacob and Evie's tactics are one thing in the field, but in a game like a Fight Club one has to play by the rules. By that logic, it actually makes more sense that Evie would brawl correctly- one might almost expect Jacob to cheat, which he doesn't do in them.

RegeRoka
12-30-2015, 07:41 PM
Take Arno, for instance. The developers tried doing some different stuff with him. He had much less health than regular Assassins and he wasn't as good of a fighter. Both qualities that were revolved specifically around gameplay, so they had relatively mixed reviews, but they didn't really change the lore at all. What was received mostly negatively was his flashback sequences in lieu of White Room Confessions. They didn't make any sense, were never explained in the lore, and weren't really necessary anyway. Ubisoft tried messing with the formula- not quite adding wings, but messes with it nonetheless- and they got burned by the fanbase. We know what we're about.

https://49.media.tumblr.com/77d13231d260971746c51efcb260bb52/tumblr_ns9xa6OcHB1rmrmpoo3_250.gif

SixKeys
12-31-2015, 02:20 AM
I love how people are scoffing at the ridiculous notion of an assassin sprouting wings and flying when that is literally exactly what Connor did in ToKW. Keep that in mind when you try to argue how the assassins are totally different from superheroes.

ze_topazio
12-31-2015, 03:23 AM
I would not be opposed to a piece of eden that gave the main Assassin and main Templar super strength and energy for a brief period of time for the final super powered battle.

Namikaze_17
12-31-2015, 05:28 AM
Well someone used the Edo Tensei. :rolleyes:

Anyway, Evie is alright; not necessarily "perfect" as I once feared, but she's pretty standard as a character. Jacob on the other hand is more or less the same, but his decent character growth and interactions with other characters makes me prefer him a little more. That, plus he looks swagged out when I dress him up. :cool:

Overall, they're both 'ight; I really preferred the Templars, preferably Starrick.

MikeFNY
12-31-2015, 09:13 AM
I love how people are scoffing at the ridiculous notion of an assassin sprouting wings and flying when that is literally exactly what Connor did in ToKW. Keep that in mind when you try to argue how the assassins are totally different from superheroes.

I swear I had no idea about this, after all I skipped the III and any DLCs because of buggy controls.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXds0YQ-Bx8&t=30

I'm speechless :)

Hey cawa, this straw man deserves an apology :D


I would not be opposed to a piece of eden that gave the main Assassin and main Templar super strength and energy for a brief period of time for the final super powered battle.

Rollerblades and a crash-helmet type of hood, you heard it here first.

Seriously, it depends on how it's done of course. For instance I was never impressed by the power of the apple of eden in the final fight in AC2, or Brotherhood I forgot, it was hilarious to run around in circles with Ezio throwing magic lasers from an apple.

But anyway, to conclude a little on this, this is exactly why I love this game, you can be your own boss, in a way that you decide how to approach missions and what tools to use. Now granted, sometimes you cannot avoid using unrealistic features but at least in Syndicate, the main story, it was very well done and that, for me, was a big plus of the game.

I'm not against the introduction of "silly" features, if we want to keep calling them that, but don't impose them on me. If you do I'll be concerned about how "realistic" they are even if I reluctantly have to now admit that yes, assassins are more close to superheroes than to normal human beings.

The rope launcher and the chameleon skills are a prime example of how it should be done.