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mike_espo
03-01-2004, 02:46 PM
It seems to me that the AI gunners are a bit too accurate. I saw three bf-109s get hit badly while attacking a lone TB3. I know its been toned down in the patches, but its still a bit too much....

mike_espo
03-01-2004, 02:46 PM
It seems to me that the AI gunners are a bit too accurate. I saw three bf-109s get hit badly while attacking a lone TB3. I know its been toned down in the patches, but its still a bit too much....

Future-
03-01-2004, 08:22 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

Wow, thx for this remarkable insight, I'll keep that in mind the next time my B-17 gets shot in half by a ZERO!

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The next time you think you have something valuable to post, think again, and ask someone else about it first... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

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- Future

Commanding Officer of the 530th Bomb Squad
380th Bomb Group 5th AF USAAF

http://invisionfree.com:54/40/30/upload/p1083.jpg

Visit us at http://members.tripod.com/tophatssquadron , home of the 310th FS and the 380th BG

clint-ruin
03-01-2004, 08:53 PM
So there's the perspective from the frustrated online B-17 pilot on AI gunner effectiveness :>

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

mike_espo
03-01-2004, 08:53 PM
Lighten up idiot

Gunner_361st
03-01-2004, 09:21 PM
I fly all aircraft in FB, bombers and fighters... and its my opinion that AI bomber gunners have been nutured, and I believe Oleg mentioned that himself as well.

Were these three BF109 AI? Were they attacking the bomber from the direct six, going nice and slow and saddling it up? Thats the quickest and best way to get shot to pieces by bomber gunners. Even then, I've noticed sometimes they'll just sit there, not doing anything, then randomly make a totally awkward, inaccurate burst.

I've had good fighter pilots complain that the 7.92mm MG of the HE-111 disabled their engines... When they were flying P40 with Allison inline engine, attacking from direct six from all of 150 meters away.. It just boggles me.

This so called "sniper round from 800 yards" I have never seen in the recent patches. Half the time I've watched AI gunners let a bomber down by sometimes not doing anything...

If any reliable figures on the accuracy of WW2 gunner fire are out there, I think the ones in FB should be above that. Why? To counter the fact that almost EVERYONE flying fighters online has an unrealistic level of experience. Everyone has died virtually in FB, and all you have to do is hit refly...

Captain Gunner of the 361st vFG

http://home.comcast.net/~smconlon/wsb/media/245357/site1039.jpg

rbstr44
03-01-2004, 09:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mike_espo:
It seems to me that the AI gunners are a bit too accurate. I saw three bf-109s get hit badly while attacking a lone TB3. I know its been toned down in the patches, but its still a bit too much....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm just a frustrated big ugly fat flyer pilot http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif , but I will say that I like the gunner accuracy the way it is despite the shortcuts the AI uses. Still, I think if you could run a number of repeated simulations for several different "realistic" situations (attempting to replicate common fighter on bomber tactics as best as possible), record tracks of the tests and post them, and then compare the results with some historical sources for typical number of fighters shot down or damaged by attacks on a bomber group: then, I and some others might be ready to change our minds if your data backed up your claims. Of course, Oleg is the one to whom you really need to prove your point, not me. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

plumps_
03-01-2004, 10:20 PM
There have been many threads about AI gunners but I'm not sure if anyone has already stated that it is mainly an online issue. Offline the gunners are tough but they can be beaten with some caution. With the lag that you have online this is sometimes impossible as you are already dead before you know that the gunner is firing.

The reason is that hits are recorded on the computer of the person who is firing [player A], whereas the resulting damage is recorded by the victim's machine [player B] (at least that's my observation). With high pings there may pass a second before B knows that A's gunner has been firing at him. Meanwhile B may have received enough hits to make his aircraft explode, although he hasn't seen a single bullet yet. As soon as the packets arrive at B's computer his aircraft suddenly explodes without a warning; also he has no chance to avoid the bullets the way it can be done offline.

I guess that this will be most often the case when you approach the AI sniper very fast and you get very close to him. He has very short reaction times, and the internet connection isn't able to keep up with the high closing speed.

This happened to me some hours ago on Greatergreen. My ping was ~380; I was flying a BF-109 G-2 and diving down at high speed from 2000 m onto an aircraft that was flying at 500 m. I got quite close to it (less than 100 m) and fired a quick burst while it passed through my sight. I noticed that it was an IL-2 and saw some hits, but in the next moment my aircraft exploded. According to the server message I got shot down by the IL-2, although I hadn't seen the gunner fire.

Now if only we could get some change in the net code that reflects the problems that appear in online play when the AI gunners' robotic reaction times meet the delays caused by lag.

-----------------------------------
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Luftcaca
03-01-2004, 11:25 PM
" posted 01-03-04 19:22


Wow, thx for this remarkable insight, I'll keep that in mind the next time my B-17 gets shot in half by a ZERO!



The next time you think you have something valuable to post, think again, and ask someone else about it first...



- Future

Commanding Officer of the 530th Bomb Squad
380th Bomb Group 5th AF USAAF"



Seems quite paradoxal to me that someone with the nickname FUTURE sounds that much ******ed

Dude with that post you have proven that:

1. you are an idiot

2. you lack the social skills needed to communicate properlly on this forum

you owe him an apology

http://www.ifrance.com/boussourir/luftcaca.jpg

Formerly ''known'' as Gunther Aeroburst

LuftKuhMist
03-01-2004, 11:54 PM
Strange thing about gunners:

In quick mission they seem pretty nasty, in fact I get often shot to pieces...

In career, I eat bombers.

Overall they are too precise I think... When the bomber is manoeuvering aggressively, they should not be able to shoot like that.

It doesn't makes sense also that big planes move like that to expose fighters to their gunners. These should keep up with the formation and that's all. It's pretty odd when a B17 begins manoeuvering and that a U2 doesn't evade attacks like it should.

Future-, you posted a pretty rude post, don't you think?

http://www.ifrance.com/boussourir/MOMS.gif http://www.ifrance.com/boussourir/grab0004.jpg

Future-
03-02-2004, 06:35 AM
Most people here will understand why I reacted that rude.

I've spent a lot of time to explain over and over again why the ai gunners are not snipers, and why their overall performance is relatively well met. So everytime some smarty jumps in here to start the old story again, I simply bash him over the head verbally, 'cause I'm really tired of hearing the same complaints over and over again, especially when I know that things aren't always quite as some people here picture them.

Now, we bomber jockeys also could now and then pop in here and complain about a few things. But no, we don't. Unlike some people here, we try to improve ourselves and see things as they are.
Some other people seem to prefer whining...

@ Luftcaca: http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif Go and rape your neighbor's cat, that would sure make more sense than telling me what to do. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif

...

Back to the topic again, I think Gunner_361st has put it together nicely, his posting should be more than enough as an answer.


S!

- Future

Commanding Officer of the 530th Bomb Squad
380th Bomb Group 5th AF USAAF

http://invisionfree.com:54/40/30/upload/p1083.jpg

Visit us at http://members.tripod.com/tophatssquadron , home of the 310th FS and the 380th BG

mike_espo
03-02-2004, 06:36 AM
Interesting plumps. Ive seen that too online. Offline, the gunners seem very potent. I can't even approach a schwarm of IL2s with rear gunners and not get smoked.

KG26_Alpha
03-02-2004, 07:29 AM
HI
If you have control of the mission parameters set the bombers AI skill to "rookie"
This helps you.
But nothing beats good tactics
Headon
BnZ
Across the wings 3-9 or 9-3 o,clock
Just sitting behind them plugging away is not the way to do it hehehe.

http://www.freewebs.com/kg26/

Alpha

[This message was edited by KG26_Alpha on Tue March 02 2004 at 10:46 AM.]

Gunner_361st
03-02-2004, 07:38 AM
Sorry about how worked up I got last post gents. It just upset me a little.

Anyway... Alpha is certainly correct. The best ways to attack a bomber is from odd angles at great speeds.

Head-on attacks
Beam attacks

Side-slipping (Giving rudder in one direction and keeping the plane balanced with oppisote aeliron) is a good way to fool the gunners on your approach. When you get in firing range, sweep your sight over the bomber and let loose!

As long as you are patient, always attack with very good airspeed, at odd angles, making sure not to make yourself an easy target, you will have considerable success fighting bombers. If you watch the training tracks that come with IL2, they will tell you to attack traveling at least 50 km/h faster than the bombers. Remember, that is a MINIMUM requirement. The faster the better, its harder to hit something going fast than something going slow. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Oh, and even then, don't be surprised when they hit you... With all the lead flying through the air, its bound to happen sooner or later. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Captain Gunner of the 361st vFG

http://home.comcast.net/~smconlon/wsb/media/245357/site1039.jpg

Luftcaca
03-02-2004, 11:15 AM
"Luftcaca: Go and rape your neighbor's cat, that would sure make more sense than telling me what to do."

and he is childish too...
good thing they have them cool emoticons, it almost hides the fact that they have nothing to say...


anyway back on topic

I'd like to know if the AI gunner accuracy changed since the out-of-the-box version of FB. I dont recall ever seeing it in the readme of any patch but it seems that the bomber are less raging than they used to be...

http://www.ifrance.com/boussourir/luftcaca.jpg

Formerly ''known'' as Gunther Aeroburst

Fillmore
03-02-2004, 11:37 AM
"I can't even approach a schwarm of IL2s with rear gunners and not get smoked."

This is a sure sign of a bad approach on your part. You need to plan your ingress and egress such that you are out of their guns' arcs the whole time, or possibly in the arc of one or two of them for a very short time, during which you are at very high speed and changing direction, and do not have the top of your aircraft facing them, and have your nose pointing away.

If you don't have the patience to properly make a safe attack upon bombers with such limited arcs, then there is no hope for you against better defended bombers, because they require even more patience and careful planning.

LuftKuhMist
03-02-2004, 11:44 AM
Gunners are too precise since thay can destroy your plane after a head on pass, it happened often to me.

Gunners in FB should not be more accurate than in real life because folks have so called "experience". Most folks flying in FB fight like rookies without training Hey in reality you spent some time TRAINING with precise DIRECTIVES and after that you went fighting. Gamers don't like directives and fight to get kills, which was not the case in reality.

Th free for all servers on the internet are not a valid base to say "that plane is undermodelled" or "the gunners are too feeble" since they don't represent REALISTIC fighting situations. It's very normal that a lone B17 gets shot to pieces easily as it is very normal that a FW190D looses a one on one fight online.

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