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gooseman1981
03-10-2004, 11:37 PM
i would like to throw my 2 cents at the producers of this game about flatspins.a flatspin is a phenomenon that very seldomly occurs and is extremely rare.for those of you who dont know,a flatspin is when u stall your plane for whatever reason and the plane spins on its belly like an axis and is nonrecoverable.what i would like to know is how oleg and his team implemented this into the game since there is no way to reproduce a flatspin in real life.did they just throw in some figures like u would do for failures of flight equipment?and do u really think this is neccecary for the game?

gooseman1981
03-10-2004, 11:37 PM
i would like to throw my 2 cents at the producers of this game about flatspins.a flatspin is a phenomenon that very seldomly occurs and is extremely rare.for those of you who dont know,a flatspin is when u stall your plane for whatever reason and the plane spins on its belly like an axis and is nonrecoverable.what i would like to know is how oleg and his team implemented this into the game since there is no way to reproduce a flatspin in real life.did they just throw in some figures like u would do for failures of flight equipment?and do u really think this is neccecary for the game?

Frsotfang
03-10-2004, 11:44 PM
Everytime I dogfight I end up going into a flatspin and crashing..I suck =(

HunterZer0
03-11-2004, 12:41 AM
Au contraire, not all flat spins are unrecoverable. Some flat spins are 'unrecoverable' in that there may not be enough altitude to recover, but it is very rare that a spin is totally unrecoverable.

It all depends on the aircraft, but there's a difference in trying to recover a flat spin in an F-14 compared to an F-104 Starfighter for example http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

There certainly is a way to reproduce a flat spin in real life, but again the ease of entering and recovering the flat spin does depend on the plane, so the dynamics are well known. Basically: chop throttle, stall the plane, and feed full rudder deflection into the stall. You'll spin. Keep full rudder, and feed cross-aileron into the spin. Your spin will flatten after a few turns.

Flat spin recovery is in every RL pilot's training regime:

1. Power off. (This helps get the nose down into a normal spin), 2. Remove hands from the elevator control (stick or wheel). This lets ailerons center, if any is being applied AND allows the nose to drop, stopping the stall, 3. POSITIVE full rudder opposite to spin to stop rotation, 4. Then, neutral rudder and pull out of spin. Remember,if rudder is held too long, you can re-spin the aircraft the opposite way.

A plane's tendency to enter an unrecoverable spin can be lessened by moving the CG of the aircraft forward. An aircraft with a CG towards the aft of the plane is more likely to progress from a regular to a flat spin.

- HZ

TX-EcoDragon
03-11-2004, 12:44 AM
The sim doesnt really differentiate between a conventional spin vs. a flat spin, that said, a flat spin isnt that hard to encounter, and is recoverable. To enter a flat spin in the real world you simply enter a normal spin but add in power, and often times opposite aileron. Recovery is the same for any spin. If your normal spin recovery technique is the proper one. Specifically, Power off, Ailerons neautral, Rudder opposite the direction of the spin, and elevator through neautral/forward. If the aircraft has too far aft CG (center of gravity) then what you say about them being non-recoverable can be true. Of course many warbirds have trouble with this maneuver the proper spin recognition and recovery trechniques will keep most pilots from needing to worry about them even with a aft CG. As far as their impact on gameplay I don't really think that there is much of an impact other than perhaps producing some real world types of flight discipline.

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Hunde_3.JG51
03-11-2004, 12:54 AM
All I know is that the 190 now enters a flat spin very easily. It is annoying as hell as one of the few things the 190 had going for it was that it could pull a very quick high AOA snap-shot and very briefly enter a minor stall where the wing dips and you recover (as is told in books historically). Now if you pull a snap shot there is a real good chance you will enter a flat spin which is yet more BS for the 190. I'm sorry, just a bit aggrivated right now after going into a few spins tonight when I would have normally been fine. Bummer http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif.

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Au_flyer
03-11-2004, 02:17 AM
Nothing wrong with Olegs work from where I sit, high performance acft are more susceptable to spins and flat spins, especially old ones. Please be aware you can not enter a spin, without stalling a wing(s). You stall a wing(s) by exceeding the critical AOA, we can rabbit on here for ages if you like, COG, chord line, relative airflow and fuselage masking, but lets face facts. Spins and flat spins (when not intentional or due to battle damage) are caused by one thing and one thing only. Pilot error.

Once you accept that, you have taken the first step to avoiding them and recovering from them.

First time I stalled one wing and entered a snap roll, followed by a spin, I remember #$%^ing myself. After a few they are just interesting and indeed fun.

lindyman
03-11-2004, 02:30 AM
Semi related. Not many days ago, I talked to a gentleman about learning aerobatics, and after a while he told me a story about flying a Yak-52. The guy he flew it with, wanted to show an inverted flat spin in it, and so they did. The entry was easy. Bring to stall, full crossed rudders and full throttle and then idle. The plane immediately flipped over on its back, and spun flat enough for him to clearly see the horison in front of him. To bring it out, however, one needed to apply full throttle again. Recovery was easy, but he asked how one would do i the engine would quit. The answer was simple: "Then you die. You're not likely to succeed in bailing out, and you can't break the autorotation without the engine." Needless to say, he decided to never try that manouver again, at least not in a Yak-52.
_
/Bjorn.

gooseman1981
03-11-2004, 02:31 AM
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[This message was edited by gooseman1981 on Thu March 11 2004 at 01:52 AM.]

gooseman1981
03-11-2004, 02:34 AM
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[This message was edited by gooseman1981 on Thu March 11 2004 at 01:53 AM.]

gooseman1981
03-11-2004, 02:49 AM
i know what u mean hunde it happend to me while flying a p47 tonight.i was up at around 15,000ft/4500km and was above some guy trying to climb up to me so i turned tight at slow speed to line up for the drop and my wings gave out and i looked like a fool dropping while spinning for 5 minutes.nothing uncommon about the stall but everytime this has ever happend to me it is fubar.killed throttle dropped flaps reverse rudder nothing...its called a phenomenon for a reason you know,like ppl bursting into flames etc.lol.thx for the tips but i dont think anyone could have pulled it off.p47s and f190s are nose heavy so your probably right about that eco.http://free.inkfrog.com/pix/tidalblades/wizard.gif

gooseman1981
03-11-2004, 02:51 AM
sry about the spam lol stupid sighttp://free.inkfrog.com/pix/tidalblades/wizard.gif

TX-EcoDragon
03-11-2004, 04:12 PM
The points about avoiding the spin, thats the one to take to heart, thats more or less what I had in mind about adding to the "real world flight discipline" while pilots train to recover, the well trained ones are primarilly trained to avoid the stall in the first place.

That said, most all the aircraft I have flown in the real world will recover in the incipient phase before you have even 1/2 rotation, the problem as I see it with teh sim is that the aircraft seem to have excess inertia when the autorotation commences, such that recovery inputs can not stop the rotation even though the aircraft shouldn't actually be autorotating yet.

S!
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PBNA-Boosher
03-11-2004, 08:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Flat spin recovery is in every RL pilot's training regime:<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, I'm in flight training myself, and flat spin training is not required by the FAA. Kinda scary isn't it?

BS87
03-11-2004, 08:07 PM
Heh flat spins. Real fun in the P38. You either get out realy early, or not at all. But its fun to cut the inboard engine and watch her spin really fast.

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robban75
03-11-2004, 11:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hunde_3.JG51:
All I know is that the 190 now enters a flat spin very easily. It is annoying as hell as one of the few things the 190 had going for it was that it could pull a very quick high AOA snap-shot and very briefly enter a minor stall where the wing dips and you recover (as is told in books historically). Now if you pull a snap shot there is a real good chance you will enter a flat spin which is yet more BS for the 190. I'm sorry, just a bit aggrivated right now after going into a few spins tonight when I would have normally been fine. Bummer http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hear you Hunde! I totally agree! I have never found any information anywhere that the Fw 190 had such a nasty flatspin. This behavior more resembles the flatspinning P-39 in the original IL2. The Ta 152 is even worse. It doesn't add up. In emergeny situtations pilots would even deliberatelly put the Fw 190 in to a spin. Something that worked very well as no fighter could follow. In-game, this means certain death.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

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V_Flatspin
03-11-2004, 11:33 PM
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TX-EcoDragon
03-11-2004, 11:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PBNA-Boosher:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Flat spin recovery is in every RL pilot's training regime:<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, I'm in flight training myself, and flat spin training is not required by the FAA. Kinda scary isn't it?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In a way yes, though spin recovery techniques are taught verbally (which is certainly of limited value), and many schools will include some level of spin training into their primary level training. What is more empahsized in modern pilot training is proper stall recognition/recovery and simple stall avaoidance. . . if you avoid the stall you avoid the spin, if you do stall, know what to do with your feet to keep from spinning. Statistics suggest that this method works pretty well, and there is much evidence to suggest that more people were killed training in spin recovery techniques than were saved by having it (Schiff, B), and that appears to be the viewpoint that the FAA holds. That said there are plenty of places to get the training if one so desires.


As far as the sim goes the stall is next to non-existent, so a recovery at the stall is tough because the sim skips straight to the spin very quickly. Usually a quick pop of forward stick and opposite rudder is enough to stop it, but wait another half second and around she goes. This is not really the way it works in actuallity, especially if your feet(hands) are at a neautral value on the rudder.

S!
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wickedpenguin
03-11-2004, 11:53 PM
I agree with everyone else on here who said that the solution to the problem is avoiding the problem in the first place.

I'm just starting pilot training, and one of the things I'm apprehensive about is of course spins. When practicing power-on and power-off stalls, the instructor has more or less told me to keep on that rudder to avoid a spin. At those low speeds, the ailerons are pure mush. The only real control you have is from the elevator and rudder, due partially to the airflow coming from the prop.

In FB, the stalls usually happen so quickly that there's almost no time to react.