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Mitlov47
03-09-2004, 09:32 PM
What's the difference between the Mk108 and the Mk103? The latter has a lower rate of fire, but is that the only difference? The 103 seems like it might have a higher muzzle velocity, making it more accurate and maybe even more powerful--true or illusion? Were they intended for different types of targets, or was the Mk108 just a replacement for the Mk103?

Any and all info is appreciated.

---------------------------

"I hear the roar of a big machine; Two worlds and in between.
Love lost, fire at will; Dum-dum bullets and shoot to kill.
I hear dive bombers and Empire down, Empire down..."
--Sisters of Mercy

KI-84-1a -- "Kaoru"

Mitlov47
03-09-2004, 09:32 PM
What's the difference between the Mk108 and the Mk103? The latter has a lower rate of fire, but is that the only difference? The 103 seems like it might have a higher muzzle velocity, making it more accurate and maybe even more powerful--true or illusion? Were they intended for different types of targets, or was the Mk108 just a replacement for the Mk103?

Any and all info is appreciated.

---------------------------

"I hear the roar of a big machine; Two worlds and in between.
Love lost, fire at will; Dum-dum bullets and shoot to kill.
I hear dive bombers and Empire down, Empire down..."
--Sisters of Mercy

KI-84-1a -- "Kaoru"

WUAF_Badsight
03-09-2004, 09:36 PM
the Mk103 is everything the 108 could only dream of being

it had nearly twice the weight in the round & was a FAR more accurate cannon

IMO it should be the Premier A2A cannon

was too long to fit into the nose of any fighter tho ...... it was a seriously long cannon

PlaneEater
03-09-2004, 09:54 PM
The Mk103 was a long-barreled cannon that fired 30mm x 184mm ammunition. It had a much longer and flatter trajectory. Primary use was long-range bomber killing with HE/I ammo, and tankbusting, using AP rounds. Here's an image of a Mk 103 round--take note of the projectile to propellant ratio, which is what gave it the rifle-like trajectory. http://www.23ag.sp.mk.ua/assets/images/mk103bul_5.jpg

The Mk108 gets far too much leeway being called a 'cannon'. I consider it, at most, a grenade launcher. It had a high rate of fire but a uselessly low muzzle velocity that causes the rounds to drop very quickly. Here's a Mk108 round in comparison: http://home.att.net/~jv44/images/30mm_shells.jpg

See the giant explosive warhead with the teenie tiny propellant charge? That gives you the mortar-like trajectory. Sure, it's like hitting the target with an artillery piece, but the operative phrase is 'hitting the target', which the Mk108 does not exactly excell at. Some people love the thing. Try it for yourself, I guess.

If I had been the RLM, I would have told Rhinemall-Borisg to rechamber it for the Mk103 round, or at least shorten the round to increase the propellant charge. When I fly, I do not hold much faith in 108s to accomplish much, except maybe strafing parked planes.

Lasst das Hollentor offen,
Es FRIERT HIER OBEN!

Mitlov47
03-09-2004, 09:54 PM
Cool. The Mk103 is seriously good at killing bombers--you can snipe from a long range (to avoid turret fire) with great accuracy and do spectacular damage. Is the FW-190 the only plane in the game that mounts it?

---------------------------

"I hear the roar of a big machine; Two worlds and in between.
Love lost, fire at will; Dum-dum bullets and shoot to kill.
I hear dive bombers and Empire down, Empire down..."
--Sisters of Mercy

KI-84-1a -- "Kaoru"

Bogun
03-09-2004, 09:59 PM
Ge-229 has two of them. It is utimare bomber killer - in quick mission managed to shoot down four B-17 without even a scratch to my "flying wing"...

Regards,

http://bogun.freeservers.com/609_bogun.jpg
"The best fighters I met in combat were the American P-51 Mustang and Russian Yak-9U. Both of those types obviously exceeded all Bf109 variants in performance, including the 'K'. The Mustang was unmatched in altitude performance, while the Yak-9U was champion in rate of climb and maneuverability."

- Walter Wolfrum (137 victories)

tenmmike
03-09-2004, 10:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
the Mk103 is everything the 108 could only dream of being

it had nearly twice the weight in the round & was a FAR more accurate cannon

IMO it should be the Premier A2A cannon

was too long to fit into the nose of any fighter tho ...... it was a seriously long cannon<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> the mk 103 and 108 are different in these ways the 103 (the gun weigst) is more the 2 x the 108 60 kg vs 141kg the round they fire are the same but the 103 fires it at 505 m/sec for the 108 and 800-920 m/sec for the 103 plus the 108 fired at 600-650rpm vs the 360-420 for the 103

http://www.2-60inf.com/2-60_crest.gif U.S INFANTRY 1984-1991

BS87
03-09-2004, 10:17 PM
Tenmike they do not fire the same round... they are alot different.. Also, HVARs are good for bomber killing, but we won't go into that

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif

http://www.geocities.com/bs87cr/Sigfinal1.txt

tenmmike
03-09-2004, 10:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BS87:
Tenmike they do not fire the same round... they are alot different.. Also, HVARs are good for bomber killing, but we won't go into that

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif

http://www.geocities.com/bs87cr/Sigfinal1.txt <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> lets argue 103 and 108 projectiles ..state your source..i will be using flying guns of ww2 by anthony williams and rapid fire lets not count anything used for ground attack

http://www.2-60inf.com/2-60_crest.gif U.S INFANTRY 1984-1991

ajafoofoo
03-09-2004, 10:27 PM
That's the funniest thing in AEP, how p38s seem to be killing a lot of b17's now.

Hehe.

A130
03-09-2004, 11:15 PM
Some things to remember...

The Germans wanted to stick MK103's in just about everything. It was the more effective cannon. It had the more effective chambering. There is no debate there. It was just too big and heavy to fit into most aircraft without imposing an unacceptable performance penalty. It also featured what must've been a truly NASTY recoil, necessitating some inventive mounting techniques.

The MK108 was much smaller, much lighter, and much simpler. (And therefore, cheaper to produce, something very important by 1944 or so.) Because the round was so much less powerful than that of the MK103, it recoiled less. To help even more, the MK108 featured API (advanced primer ignition) blowback operation, an operating method known for reducing recoil. (And simplifying construction.) Its rate of fire was higher than the MK103 IIRC, although it wasn't particularly high. Also, since the MK108's ammunition was smaller and lighter, more of it could be carried -- also a bonus, especially for the LW, as the numbers were against them and every round was needed.

Another thing to consider is that the MK108 was intended for late war aircraft which tended to fly quite quickly. (I'm thinking ME262 here.) If you consider that the average "safe" approach on an enemy bomber was from any direction OTHER than the rear, and if you add the firing AC's own speed to the velocity of the MK108 (as you would when firing at the sides, front, top, or bottom of a target), it becomes acceptable, if not respectable. The Germans had factored this in to the design.

I'm quite fond of the MK108 in FB under some circumstances. When using the 262A1, those four cannon in the nose just annhilate anything that gets in front of them. Bombers lose wings in one short burst; fighters simply explode. One decent strafing run on a vehicle convoy will knock out everything that isn't armored, quickly and easily. Long range shots are very difficult due to the curved trajectory, but at 300m or less -- where most accurate shooting takes place anyway -- aiming is not difficult when you've got four going at one time. Two is more difficult. If you only have a single cannon, it can be downright tricky. Fortunately, this is one of the most powerful weapons in the game and you won't need very many hits to do the job.

This was my favorite LW weapon until I had the opportunity to try out the MK103 online. Barring the very small ammo supplies...WOW. I found it fairly easy to make high angle deflection shots on bombers 600m or so away, and it seemed that almost every hit started a fire. I was very, very impressed by the utility of this cannon against bombers.

If you haven't tried it, you owe it to yourself to give it a test drive. I think you'll find it time well spent. Once you get the hang of its trajectory (aim it like a Russian 20mm -- that's the secret) you'll be spanking bombers in no time.

WUAF_Badsight
03-10-2004, 01:12 AM
the Mk103 round is about twice the weight of the mk108

it hits with a FAR more powerfull amount of energy

Gibbage1
03-10-2004, 01:56 AM
The projectile for the Mk-108 and Mk-103 were the same, but the charge was almost TWICE the size on the Mk-103's. Thats the key differance. So it threw the same projectile a lot faster.

Mitlov47
03-10-2004, 02:37 AM
Thanks for the info.

It's also worth pointing out that, all other things equal, longer barrel=faster muzzle velocity. I know all other things AREN'T equal here, but I'm saying "here's another factor." The longer the barrel, the longer the round has to accelerate before the propellant gasses are no longer pushing it. For example, the M-16 rifle has a higher muzzle velocity than the M-4 carbine (same ammo and same firing mechanism).

And someone mentioned that the Mk108 was a short-barrel weapon whereas the Mk103 had a very long barrel. So even without the propellant advantage, the Mk103 would have had higher-velocity rounds. And double the propellant just makes it much, much, much, MUCH faster...

---------------------------

"I hear the roar of a big machine; Two worlds and in between.
Love lost, fire at will; Dum-dum bullets and shoot to kill.
I hear dive bombers and Empire down, Empire down..."
--Sisters of Mercy

KI-84-1a -- "Kaoru"

tenmmike
03-10-2004, 02:47 AM
ok let me be clear the projectile was the same ..that is what i meant ..i have gotten used to talking in a informal manner on this as thats what most ppl understand ..my fault..MK103 30X184B MK 108 30X90 RB.....the mk108 (M-GESCHOSS) is he same projectile as the MK103 (M-GESCHOSS) the difference is the CASING that holde the projectile , as you can see from above the case length is just slighltly more then 2x the MK 108 THAT GIVE THE VEL. BOOST THAT I STATED it is also because of the larger more powerful round that the weapon needed to be bigger to absorb the energy released and also because of the case length the cycle rate was lower then on a 108 ..it should be noted that on some expiermental 108's they got rof to 900 but these versions never saw combat which is fine as within a few more months the m213c was fixing to enter service ..good thing for us it did not( even though it would not have made any difference over all)

http://www.2-60inf.com/2-60_crest.gif U.S INFANTRY 1984-1991

HARD_Sarge
03-10-2004, 04:36 AM
WUAF_Badsight



posted 10-03-04 00:12
the Mk103 round is about twice the weight of the mk108

it hits with a FAR more powerfull amount of energy

what are you talking about sir ?, it is a HE round, it blows up when it hits (which is the key word here, as it's flight path was not great for aiming and hitting)

one had greater speed and greater range, both both did the same amount of damage

HARD_Sarge

WhiskeyRiver
03-10-2004, 05:48 AM
higher velocity would cause greater damage

To kill me you've got to hit the heart Ramon--Clint F*cking Eastwood

VaporBlast
03-10-2004, 06:30 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by WhiskeyRiver:
higher velocity would cause greater damage

We are talking about canon rounds here not rifle rounds. If you fire a round that will explode on impact, like the 103 and 108, you don't need high velocity assure high damage to the target but you need it for accuracy. That's why the 103 was mush more efficient...better accuracy. If you fire a rifle (like the .50) round on the contrary, you need velocity to do some damages (and to keep accuracy), to pierce the skin of your target otherwise your bullets will just bounce off. A rifle round the same size of a canon round fired at the same velocity as the canon round will do a lot less damages. But at any velocity, rifle round just tend to do a lot less damage to the target because they don't explode on impact. This is also the promary reason of gun convergence. You want your bullets to impact almost on the same spot at the same time to multiply the effectiveness of your bullet.
I just wanted to make that precision since a lot of people don't seem to make the difference between a canon round and a rifle round and sorry for my english.

clint-ruin
03-10-2004, 08:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VaporBlast:
We are talking about canon rounds here not rifle rounds. If you fire a round that will explode on impact, like the 103 and 108, you don't need high velocity assure high damage to the target but you need it for accuracy. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To put this out again:

MK 103
// APT - MG - MG - HE

APT
mass = 0.502
speed = 752.0
power = 0.0

MG
mass = 0.330
speed = 900.0
power = 0.072

HE
mass = 0.455
speed = 800.0
power = 0.024

----

The Mk103 has what is one of the most powerful AP rounds in the game aside from the NS37/45/Bk.50

Worth considering.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

HARD_Sarge
03-10-2004, 09:00 AM
Hi Clint
yes, but they talking about the difference between the 2 cannons, the one could fire AP rounds, and the so called Mine round, while the other was mainly only armed with the Mine round

Speed has nothing to do with the damage a HE round will cause, only in the time that it will get to the target

and speed is not the only number that means anything, if it was, then the 30 cal would be better in air to air combat then the 50 cal, Mass come into play then

but still, a HE round goes boom when it hits

HARD_Sarge

BS87
03-10-2004, 09:54 AM
Yes sorry mike when i read your poast real fast i thought you were implying that they fired the same exact round. sorry about that

http://www.geocities.com/bs87cr/Sigfinal1.txt

p1ngu666
03-10-2004, 12:58 PM
the more speed the better tho http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg

tenmmike
03-10-2004, 01:04 PM
BS87
thats no prob man i worded it wrong http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.2-60inf.com/2-60_crest.gif U.S INFANTRY 1984-1991