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View Full Version : Concern about gangs and how Syndicate could benefit from a nemesis system



KrYpToNiC95
09-27-2015, 08:33 AM
Having done quite abit of reading and watching numerous videos I can't help but think that the gangs are going to be relatively boring in Syndictate. In a map video preview I realised that each borough has one gang leader. After it gets taken over by the rooks so far it appears as though that borough will be controlled by Jacob and Evie.

I played Shadow of Mordor and I really think this game would benefit from a nemesis style system. The idea of controlling a borough shouldn't just end at defeating the gang leader but rather it should be open to contesting from other up and coming gangs. Any fights that are lost should result in that gang leader becoming stronger and more difficult to defeat in the future. I think that adding that dimension to the game would really make it more exciting and engaging and it would definitely add more replay value.

Alphacos007
09-27-2015, 08:35 AM
GTA San Andreas had a system like this one you're saying. It's good on paper, but after a while it turns to a chore. You don't want to go all the time to defend your turfs, sometimes you are way too far and the time to get there is enough to loose before you can do anything, etc.

Aphex_Tim
09-27-2015, 08:43 AM
Far Cry 4 did this as well in a way. It was fun the first two or three times to defend an outpost you'd captured earlier but later on, it just started to feel like a chore and I couldn't be bothered helping my virtual buddies out anymore.

Oh, and AC:Revelations tried something like that. We all know how that turned out... :nonchalance:

The thing with Shadow of Mordor was that you didn't really take over these forts and outposts for yourself. Once you killed a local warchief, another would simply take his place later on.

Jessigirl2013
09-27-2015, 09:15 AM
Having done quite abit of reading and watching numerous videos I can't help but think that the gangs are going to be relatively boring in Syndictate. In a map video preview I realised that each borough has one gang leader. After it gets taken over by the rooks so far it appears as though that borough will be controlled by Jacob and Evie.

I played Shadow of Mordor and I really think this game would benefit from a nemesis style system. The idea of controlling a borough shouldn't just end at defeating the gang leader but rather it should be open to contesting from other up and coming gangs. Any fights that are lost should result in that gang leader becoming stronger and more difficult to defeat in the future. I think that adding that dimension to the game would really make it more exciting and engaging and it would definitely add more replay value.


GTA San Andreas had a system like this one you're saying. It's good on paper, but after a while it turns to a chore. You don't want to go all the time to defend your turfs, sometimes you are way too far and the time to get there is enough to loose before you can do anything, etc.

I agree especially as gangs IRL don't follow set rules and IMO would be silly if included in game.;)
Not to mention a hassle, reminds me of tower defence in Revelations, However I would be forced to go and punch a few brutes every 5mins.


As long as they fix the gang takeover cutscene from the demo I don't mind.
I'm not clued up on gang culture, but I don't think they would cheer that they now work for a rival gang who brutally murdered their friends.:confused:

LieutenantRex
09-27-2015, 06:19 PM
Too many modulating variables for a game that relies on historical constraints to justify its technical limitations. It wouldn't work for that reason alone.

D.I.D.
09-27-2015, 06:22 PM
Why would Syndicate's gangs leave you alive? The whole reason SoM's nemesis system worked was because you were undead.

I can see it working in reverse, where an enemy's less injured compatriots might try to pick up a captain near death and drag him/her to safety (and if they succeed in escaping, that enemy recovers and returns with a grudge).

cawatrooper9
09-28-2015, 02:32 PM
I LOVE the Nemesis system... but it wouldn't really work for an AC game. How bad of Assassins would Evie and Jacob be if their targets would be continuously escaping the clutches of death and coming back stronger than before?

I do think an Arkham-style Batman game would work great with a Nemesis system, though- perhaps a Year One storyline where Batman is honing his skills against randomized mobsters, throw in a few supervillains for bosses... ah, but I digress...

D.I.D.
09-28-2015, 02:46 PM
I LOVE the Nemesis system... but it wouldn't really work for an AC game. How bad of Assassins would Evie and Jacob be if their targets would be continuously escaping the clutches of death and coming back stronger than before?

Gang fights, innit. If there's a huge swarm, and remember these aren't necessarily your targets since targets will be captains of industry and the like, then it's not hard to imagine how two lackeys could quickly hoy an injured boss into a carraige and speed away for medical attention. Then you'd have two types of quarry: the contracts you're given, and your own personal vendettas. It doesn't matter though, since gangs are probably only for Syndicate and this situation won't present itself again.


I do think an Arkham-style Batman game would work great with a Nemesis system, though- perhaps a Year One storyline where Batman is honing his skills against randomized mobsters, throw in a few supervillains for bosses... ah, but I digress...

Again, the biggest question for Batman's enemies was always "Who's behind the mask?". They would not leave him on the ground alive and unmasked. He would be kidnapped, at best.

Secondary point, completely unrelated Batman theme - ARKHAM KNIGHT SPOILERS OK I lied, for reasons. Yes, I've played Arkham Knight and I do know what happens :)

LoyalACFan
09-29-2015, 05:36 PM
I sometimes feel like I'm the only person in the game dev/analysis community who wasn't all that crazy about the nemesis system in SoM. I mean, it was alright as a concept, but it had a few faults that I couldn't quite get past. For one thing, the combat wasn't hard enough to make overcoming the nemeses really feel satisfying. That was my big gripe. They just cheaply slap a bunch of attributes onto the orcs you've killed to make some of your tactics useless. I mean, I get that the idea was to get you to use everything in your arsenal, but instead of making one tactic literally impossible, make it more difficult. Give the guy a helmet if you want headshots to be more challenging, so you have to shoot him directly in the face head-on. Make him paranoid and constantly checking over his shoulder if you want stealth to be ruled out, so you have to be really careful with your approach. Don't just show me a banner that says "nope, this guy is impervious to being shot in the head," that's lame.

And secondly, I experienced several bugs in the system. I know there are a few times where, if you throw someone off a cliff to their presumed death, they can reappear later, and that was a really cool touch, but even after I killed him again, he kept respawning over and over with the same "I survived the fall" line. I haven't played it in a while, but he's probably stalking my game map as we speak. Then there were a few times when my branded warchiefs would just randomly lose their brand.

Shahkulu101
09-29-2015, 05:44 PM
SoM sucked and the nemesis system, while cool from a technical perspective, was boring and repetitive.

*abdicates from planet Earth*

GunnarGunderson
09-29-2015, 05:55 PM
Honestly, the whole gang turf system in games is really lame. You take over the whole city and then you have nothing to do. Imagine if you cleared an outpost in Phantom Pain and then it just stayed empty for the rest of time, even when you came back for a mission.

Aphex_Tim
09-29-2015, 06:07 PM
*abdicates from planet Earth*

There will be no realm, no barren moon, no crevice where I can not find you...

Jessigirl2013
09-29-2015, 07:26 PM
Honestly, the whole gang turf system in games is really lame. You take over the whole city and then you have nothing to do. Imagine if you cleared an outpost in Phantom Pain and then it just stayed empty for the rest of time, even when you came back for a mission.

That's what happened in Farcry 3 aswell. Enemy's wouldn't spawn while you were roaming if you did all outposts.

GunnarGunderson
09-29-2015, 07:52 PM
That's what happened in Farcry 3 aswell. Enemy's wouldn't spawn while you were roaming if you did all outposts.

That's what I mean, why is my reward for doing stuff getting to do less stuff?

LoyalACFan
09-29-2015, 10:01 PM
SoM sucked and the nemesis system, while cool from a technical perspective, was boring and repetitive.

*abdicates from planet Earth*

Mah boi


Honestly though, I didn't think it was an awful game, it just took too much from too many other games without adding anything really new other than the nemesis system (which you and I obviously both have beef with). It was just kinda mediocre IMO.

Assassin_M
09-29-2015, 10:16 PM
That's what I mean, why is my reward for doing stuff getting to do less stuff?
Because everything is finite?