PDA

View Full Version : Back to Evil Templars?



EmbodyingSeven5
09-25-2015, 11:36 AM
The Templars in AC syndicate seem just as bad as AC 2, AC brotherhood and Unity's. Thoughts? Doesn't bother me too much since I never agreed with the Templar idealology Take a look at the story trailer again and see.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GXqBOw-8n8

cawatrooper9
09-25-2015, 02:33 PM
Yeah, I can see what you mean. I think it's important to remember, though, that we're seeing these Templars through the eyes of an (or in this case, two) Assassin/s. There's going to be some inherent bias.

Even games that teased the Templars as being more sympathetic (such as the original AC and Rogue) tended to first show them in a more biased light before throwing in that good old dose of AC doubt. I really don't think that this game would spoil that in a trailer.

Also, keep in mind that Jacob and Evie, while working for freedom, seem to be heading a rather ruthless game. I'd wager that there's to be plenty of moral ambiguity before all is said and done.

(On a side note, I LOVED this trailer. I like the theme of a sort of hitman film, such as Smokin Aces, in which our targets are laid before us and the work needs only be done.)

Jessigirl2013
09-25-2015, 05:09 PM
...Yeah..

I have to say its a bit disappointing to be honest.
One of the reasons I liked Rogue so much is that it showed the Assassins are not all they seem at times.;)
The series as a whole I liked as it made it clear that Assassins are not necessarily 'the good guys'.

But alas ... UBI seems to be scrapping that idea...:confused:

x-Lyyr-x
09-25-2015, 09:27 PM
Too early to tell.

The Abstergo templars have a solid agenda. Control is the way to go. Total freedom leads to anarchy.
The most dilemma I have had was in AC3. I agreed with the dying words of Connor's targets, yet my love of the american revolution kept me going :)
Also governor Torres in AC4 had a sound plan by using the observatory to spy on those who want to rule society with an iron fist.
Unity was more on the "darker" side due to the fact that the rogue faction of templars in Paris was led by a Sage, with a hidden agenda of his own no doubt.

I would love to see more present day action with (a) named central protagonist(s). The present day is a fertile ground to play with current conspiracy theories that would fit the Assassin/Templar conflict perfectly.

Hans684
09-26-2015, 09:29 AM
Yes, I only needed to hear who wrote Syndicate to know that. So story wise I've already been disappointed a long time ago, it also seems like he actually got the mustache for the villains this time.

Aphex_Tim
09-26-2015, 11:42 AM
The Templars in AC syndicate seem just as bad as AC 2, AC brotherhood and Unity's.

To be honest, Unity's Templars being evil is kinda justified as they were a rogue faction who were plotting within their own order. They assassinated their own Grand Master!
Add to that that Grand Master de La Serre was a good man, raising Arno as his own after his father was assassinated and wanting to truce with the Assassins.

Xstantin
09-26-2015, 04:44 PM
They look evil allright

I-Like-Pie45
09-26-2015, 04:59 PM
lets be honest there's no clear identifiable difference between these templars and real life british politicians!

Hans684
09-26-2015, 05:37 PM
To be honest, Unity's Templars being evil is kinda justified as they were a rogue faction who were plotting within their own order. They assassinated their own Grand Master!
Add to that that Grand Master de La Serre was a good man, raising Arno as his own after his father was assassinated and wanting to truce with the Assassins.

And worked with Mirebeau to have a peaceful revolution instead of the slaughter by Germain's Parisian Rite.

Mr.Black24
09-27-2015, 04:57 AM
It makes sense when you think about it. During that period of time, it was a horrible imbalance of the poor and the rich. The poor were dying and starving to the point that even people didn't name their kids as the number of children died off really quick during those harsh conditions, so to the parents, why bother if the kid might die in the next 5 or 7 years before even reaching their preteens. I mean how can the Templars in that time even justify all of that? I mean, they soon launched WWII soon after in a few decades, which is something big right there, so they'd just became incredibly ruthless from here on out. There could be an explanation for all of this, I could be wrong, but lets see.

Hans684
09-27-2015, 07:47 AM
It makes sense when you think about it. During that period of time, it was a horrible imbalance of the poor and the rich. The poor were dying and starving to the point that even people didn't name their kids as the number of children died off really quick during those harsh conditions, so to the parents, why bother if the kid might die in the next 5 or 7 years before even reaching their preteens. I mean how can the Templars in that time even justify all of that? I mean, they soon launched WWII soon after in a few decades, which is something big right there, so they'd just became incredibly ruthless from here on out. There could be an explanation for all of this, I could be wrong, but lets see.

As true as it is, there are more ways to make things gray.

Aphex_Tim
09-27-2015, 08:37 AM
With the amount of times the name Starrick drops in that trailer, I couldn't help but think "WHERE IS CRAWFORD STARRICK!?" :rolleyes:

Jessigirl2013
09-27-2015, 08:49 AM
Yes, I only needed to hear who wrote Syndicate to know that. So story wise I've already been disappointed a long time ago, it also seems like he actually got the mustache for the villains this time.
Not a fan I'm guessing :rolleyes:

To be honest, Unity's Templars being evil is kinda justified as they were a rogue faction who were plotting within their own order. They assassinated their own Grand Master!
Add to that that Grand Master de La Serre was a good man, raising Arno as his own after his father was assassinated and wanting to truce with the Assassins.

I agree, it was unexpected IMO.


lets be honest there's no clear identifiable difference between these templars and real life british politicians!

Hear hear!!!


And worked with Mirebeau to have a peaceful revolution instead of the slaughter by Germain's Parisian Rite.
I think Unitys past storyline was actually ok, its a shame the MD was awful and ruined it.


It makes sense when you think about it. During that period of time, it was a horrible imbalance of the poor and the rich. The poor were dying and starving to the point that even people didn't name their kids as the number of children died off really quick during those harsh conditions, so to the parents, why bother if the kid might die in the next 5 or 7 years before even reaching their preteens. I mean how can the Templars in that time even justify all of that? I mean, they soon launched WWII soon after in a few decades, which is something big right there, so they'd just became incredibly ruthless from here on out. There could be an explanation for all of this, I could be wrong, but lets see.

Huh? What would they call their child for 5 years.:rolleyes:

I understood your point when I thought it talked about newborns, however I find it hard to think that a parent would go 5 years not giving their child a name because they couldn't be bothered :rolleyes:

Is this accurate? It so, then :confused:


With the amount of times the name Starrick drops in that trailer, I couldn't help but think "WHERE IS CRAWFORD STARRICK!?" :rolleyes:

*This time with awful English accents

Let me guess, every time we come across him, he manages to get away.
And he turns out to be the last target.

;)

Aphex_Tim
09-27-2015, 09:10 AM
Let me guess, every time we come across him, he manages to get away.


Or he just straight up shoots you for disturbing him.

Hans684
09-27-2015, 09:17 AM
Not a fan I'm guessing :rolleyes:

Correct.



I think Unitys past storyline was actually ok, its a shame the MD was awful and ruined it.

Unity past story seems to have far more shades of gray than this, so you could say Syndicate made me like Unity's past story more. However it looks like Syndicate will have a better MD than Unity. So it's a double edged sword.

Jessigirl2013
09-27-2015, 05:04 PM
Correct.




Unity past story seems to have far more shades of gray than this, so you could say Syndicate made me like Unity's past story more. However it looks like Syndicate will have a better MD than Unity. So it's a double edged sword.

Huh? I heard that Syndicate will have a MD like Unity which is 'Cinematic' AKA cut scene person talking to you, a nameless mute.
Is this incorrect information?

Aphex_Tim
09-27-2015, 08:45 PM
Huh? I heard that Syndicate will have a MD like Unity which is 'Cinematic' AKA cut scene person talking to you, a nameless mute.
Is this incorrect information?

Yep, but it's also implied there'll be more characters involved this time, including Shaun and Rebecca. So it might actually build upon the MD storyline this time, even if it will just be cutscenes.

saw2097
09-29-2015, 02:17 AM
A major point has always been that the Templars have no line they won't cross to achieve their goals.

They don't believe in morality or any form of Creed that limits what they do.

That has been how it is in every game, they commit atrocities and the assassin's stop them and then they explain why they did it, and you wonder if they were justified in their actions despite how horrific they were.

Jessigirl2013
09-29-2015, 07:46 PM
Yep, but it's also implied there'll be more characters involved this time, including Shaun and Rebecca. So it might actually build upon the MD storyline this time, even if it will just be cutscenes.

Aww... Part of me was hoping I was wrong.:rolleyes:
I hope its better but even Unity had Bishop and shaun... and IMO it was lacklustre.

Lets hope its better in Syndicate.


A major point has always been that the Templars have no line they won't cross to achieve their goals.

They don't believe in morality or any form of Creed that limits what they do.

That has been how it is in every game, they commit atrocities and the assassin's stop them and then they explain why they did it, and you wonder if they were justified in their actions despite how horrific they were.

I know but they are not necessarily the "bad guys".

LoyalACFan
09-29-2015, 10:40 PM
Meh, the Templar underlings don't necessarily seem over-the-top to me. Not sociopaths or anything, just sheltered, privileged people who don't really get why what they're doing is wrong. They seem fairly believable to me as tokens of capitalism gone wild.

The boss of the lot, though, this Starrick guy... ehhhhhh. He's psychotic enough to straight-up shoot someone in the face for disturbing his piano recital but still stable and intelligent enough to form an iron grip on the entire city of London? Lel. The whole trope of bad guys murdering their own loyal followers on a whim is one that really grates on my nerves because it's a really lazy, heavy-handed way of immediately showing that they're evil to the core, and realistically, nobody would follow that guy. As soon as he started pulling stunts like that, his power base would have evaporated before the Assassins ever laid a finger on him.

Assassin_M
09-29-2015, 10:48 PM
I'd probably be the first guy to jump up and down about this but, really, this is just a trailer. Yeah, they literally look like mustache twirling villains (They are not subtle this time), but go rewatch some of the AC I trailers and tell me it paints the conflict grey.

Locopells
09-29-2015, 11:57 PM
Wow, they really did raise you from the dead, M!

Assassin_M
09-30-2015, 12:36 AM
Wow, they really did raise you from the dead, M!
http://www.breadwig.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/001212-zombie-funny-silly-wacky-cartoon-comic-breadwig.com_.jpg

No one thought it could happen...but it did.

SixKeys
09-30-2015, 12:47 AM
Wow, they really did raise you from the dead, M!

They say if you stand in front of a mirror and say "Ezio is the best" three times, M will appear behind you.

Assassin_M
09-30-2015, 12:48 AM
They say if you stand in front of a mirror and say "Ezio is the best" three times, M will appear behind you.
Just say it once...Lol 3 times? Come now, i'm not that nice.

Bloody Mo. It's perfect.

Mr.Black24
09-30-2015, 06:03 AM
As true as it is, there are more ways to make things gray. How can you make everything that was happening back there grey? Like I'm not arguing against a grey story, but how can it be done when the point comes down that even children are dropping like flies in that period and with the Templars working for "peace", is ok with all of this happening?

Hans684
09-30-2015, 06:41 AM
How can you make everything that was happening back there grey?

Like Unity or even Rogue, treat both sides the same.


Like I'm not arguing against a grey story, but how can it be done when the point comes down that even children are dropping like flies in that period and with the Templars working for "peace", is ok with all of this happening?

I'm not talking about glorifying people that was bad, like the people doing child slavery and have them work beyond their breaking point. Simply adding more bad along with the bad, the Assassins are gonna use gangs again. Getting people who worked for the Templars that follows those that pays them, many things can happen that makes it gray because of that method. As said, bad + bad = gray.

Mr.Black24
09-30-2015, 06:49 AM
I'm not talking about glorifying people that was bad, like the people doing child slavery and have them work beyond their breaking point. Simply adding more bad along with the bad, the Assassins are gonna use gangs again. Getting people who worked for the Templars that follows those that pays them, many things can happen that makes it gray because of that method. As said, bad + bad = gray.

The problem is that Jacob and Evie are in complete control of the Rooks here, unlike the neglectful Assassins of the old Colonial Brotherhood, not to mention that it is entirely possible to transform the Rooks into a full fledged Assassin Brotherhood, so having that part as grey is already killed off.

Perhaps in the fight for power on the streets, casualties are heavier? I don't know anymore....

Hans684
09-30-2015, 06:58 AM
The problem is that Jacob and Evie are in complete control of the Rooks here, unlike the neglectful Assassins of the old Colonial Brotherhood, not to mention that it is entirely possible to transform the Rooks into a full fledged Assassin Brotherhood, so having that part as grey is already killed off.

I know it's already been killed off, just saying how it could work. And the Colonial Assassins was in control of their gangs, they simply where extremists and fanatics.


Perhaps in the fight for power on the streets, casualties are heavier? I don't know anymore....

Could work with Jacob, maybe him becoming power hungry with his gangs as he wants to take over London. But seeing as he lives 20 years later in Jack The Rippers time, another missed opportunity.

cawatrooper9
09-30-2015, 06:15 PM
How can you make everything that was happening back there grey? Like I'm not arguing against a grey story, but how can it be done when the point comes down that even children are dropping like flies in that period and with the Templars working for "peace", is ok with all of this happening?

Have you played the first game, friend?
Almost every assassination had you learning about a target- their habits, strategies to kill them, but most importantly how despicable they were and why they need to die.

Then, when the deed was done, your supposedly despicable target got the chance to defend themself. There were no cop outs- the Templars were guilty of exactly they were accused of- yet, they still managed to make themselves believably sympathetic. Nothing is true.

Pr0metheus 1962
10-01-2015, 06:50 PM
The Templars in AC syndicate seem just as bad as AC 2, AC brotherhood and Unity's.

AC plots are always weakest when the Templars are portrayed as moustache-twirling villains. To be honest, I'm coming back to AC with a feeling of dread, because nothing I've seen so far leads me to believe Syndicate will be any better than Unity. If that's the case, it may be the last AC game I buy. Right now, the only reason I'm still aiming to buy it is because I used to live in London, so at least there'll be the nostalgia factor.

saw2097
10-01-2015, 11:42 PM
AC plots are always weakest when the Templars are portrayed as moustache-twirling villains. To be honest, I'm coming back to AC with a feeling of dread, because nothing I've seen so far leads me to believe Syndicate will be any better than Unity. If that's the case, it may be the last AC game I buy. Right now, the only reason I'm still aiming to buy it is because I used to live in London, so at least there'll be the nostalgia factor.

Not really.

Both Assassin's Creed 2 and Brotherhood had pure villain Templars and they were both very successful and were what really kicked off Assassin's Creed popularity.

And from what I understand the real problem with Unity was the main character Arno and all the bugs rather than the Templars being pure villains.

Then there was AC Liberation which had a interesting and complex story as I understand it despite that the Templars were full on villains.

Its all about the execution of the game and how they do the story, if the focus is more on the twins and their relationships and views on the Creed as I suspect it will be than the Templars being pure evil villains or complex villains will be irrelevant.

Journey93
10-02-2015, 12:31 AM
Its a shame they are going back to evil Templars.

While I don't like AC3 in a lot of aspects, the Templars were great in that game. Finally not silly evil but more in the gray area.

I love the Ezio Trilogy despite the silly templars but thats more because of the character of Ezio and the good story in those games in general.
And they at least explained that time (Even Abstergo refers to it as the Dark Age for Templars).

If Syndicate does everything else right in the story I'm fine with silly templars but if it doesn't....no buy from me

Journey93
10-02-2015, 12:39 AM
Not really.

Both Assassin's Creed 2 and Brotherhood had pure villain Templars and they were both very successful and were what really kicked off Assassin's Creed popularity.

And from what I understand the real problem with Unity was the main character Arno and all the bugs rather than the Templars being pure villains.

Then there was AC Liberation which had a interesting and complex story as I understand it despite that the Templars were full on villains.

Its all about the execution of the game and how they do the story, if the focus is more on the twins and their relationships and views on the Creed as I suspect it will be than the Templars being pure evil villains or complex villains will be irrelevant.

AC Liberation had a terrible story but I agree on everything else.

It depends on the rest of the story. Interesting Templars are already off the table though

Pr0metheus 1962
10-02-2015, 01:06 AM
Both Assassin's Creed 2 and Brotherhood had pure villain Templars and they were both very successful and were what really kicked off Assassin's Creed popularity..

I never said stereotypically evil templars made the games they were in bad. I said they made the plot weak. A weak plot doesn't guarantee that a game is going to be bad. It just doesn't help.

And I've played every AC game since AC1 (see the image below), so I'm aware of which games were most popular. My favorite games of the series are AC2, Brotherhood and Black Flag, and all of them had stereotypical evil Templars.

DanPenfold2013
10-02-2015, 02:24 AM
They do seem more angry then in the, past games that we have seen. We will know more about these nest month we don''t have long to wait to be honest :P

Shahkulu101
10-02-2015, 01:08 PM
I never said stereotypically evil templars made the games they were in bad. I said they made the plot weak. A weak plot doesn't guarantee that a game is going to be bad. It just doesn't help.

And I've played every AC game since AC1 (see the image below), so I'm aware of which games were most popular. My favorite games of the series are AC2, Brotherhood and Black Flag, and all of them had stereotypical evil Templars.

You weren't by any chance smoking some Jamaican funk while playing AC4?

Aphex_Tim
10-02-2015, 01:54 PM
My favorite games of the series are AC2, Brotherhood and Black Flag, and all of them had stereotypical evil Templars.

Disagree on Black Flag. It seemed to me that AC4's Templars, Torres in particular, were kinda just minding their own business, not really bothering Edward or anyone for that matter. They wanted the new world to be free of England so that arguably even makes them good guys. Edward just kept interfering with their plans all the time because there was coin in it and he quarreled with Hornigold for choosing to take the king's pardon. Most of AC4's assassination targets that were actually evil weren't even Templars. Like Laurens Prins. Torres even condemns Prins' slaving.

Namikaze_17
10-02-2015, 02:06 PM
Despite coming off as your run-of-the-mill, mustache-twirling baddies - they don't seem half bad actually( Starrick and Roth respectively, coming off the most interesting) - AC1's trailers didn't portray its Templars as morally grey either, so I'l just wait and see how they are in the game first before dismissing them completely.

But screw how they come off, has anyone noticed how sharp these mofo's are dressed?
Nothing major, I just wanted to say that. :p

Aphex_Tim
10-02-2015, 02:13 PM
Here's hoping you can take their outfits after assassinating them. :')

Hans684
10-02-2015, 04:00 PM
Disagree on Black Flag. It seemed to me that AC4's Templars, Torres in particular, were kinda just minding their own business, not really bothering Edward or anyone for that matter. They wanted the new world to be free of England so that arguably even makes them good guys. Edward just kept interfering with their plans all the time because there was coin in it and he quarreled with Hornigold for choosing to take the king's pardon. Most of AC4's assassination targets that were actually evil weren't even Templars. Like Laurens Prins. Torres even condemns Prins' slaving.

The Caribbean Rite aimed for far more than that. They aimed to end all corrupt slaver nations with the Crystal Skull, the nations that only have been caring about themselves(corrupt Templars like the Borgia, extremist like Germain and misguided like Starrick included.) Edward let those nations rule in the name of "freedom", seeing as it's still things like slavery I'd say he did a bad job at it making people free. But saying bad would be an understatement. Darby did say in the Assassins Den that he did write the Templars to not be villains and that Edward is the villain but good enough to not be a bad guy without any good qualities. He's an anti-villain as he has some and have do done some good things. Like killing Laurens Prins or someone other slaver in assassination contracts. He's the black sheep of the Kenway family.

Aphex_Tim
10-02-2015, 04:09 PM
I rest my case.