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View Full Version : "National" AI aerobatics and tactics



koniygn
01-02-2004, 04:56 AM
I feel that now the AI aerobatics and tactics are too... well, stupid. From many books I learnt every country in World War II had trained the pilots to do the aerobatics which they thought was the best. For example, US use the diving tactic of "hit and run", Japan use climbing to avoid gunfire, Germany pilots purposely create negative Gs to counteract British Rolls-Royce engines etc.... what I mean is that if the further addon or BoB include this features, that will be a new taste of flight simulations we ever have (imagine now the Zero dives away from my Thunderbolt =.=~)

koniygn
01-02-2004, 04:56 AM
I feel that now the AI aerobatics and tactics are too... well, stupid. From many books I learnt every country in World War II had trained the pilots to do the aerobatics which they thought was the best. For example, US use the diving tactic of "hit and run", Japan use climbing to avoid gunfire, Germany pilots purposely create negative Gs to counteract British Rolls-Royce engines etc.... what I mean is that if the further addon or BoB include this features, that will be a new taste of flight simulations we ever have (imagine now the Zero dives away from my Thunderbolt =.=~)

VW-IceFire
01-02-2004, 10:15 AM
That would be an interesting addition to future sim games...it is indeed true that the AI is generally the same no matter which side you play against but that indeed does take even more time to program in some more characteristics and make sure that the AI can use them effectively. Certainly an interesting idea for the future!

- IceFire
http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/spit-sig.jpg

Sturmvogel66
01-03-2004, 04:53 PM
Great idea, that would increase immersion ten-fold. I never thought of that, but the tactics do seem pretty repetitive now. I would love to see differing tactics for each different nation.

LEXX_Luthor
01-03-2004, 06:24 PM
A bad BAD idea.

Brit and USA Pacific pilots tried to turn with Zeros early in the WAR.

Soviet I~16 pilots Boom and Zoomed slower but more maneuverable Japanese Ki~27s over Manchuria.

German pilots often turned with even Yak~3s, when they thought they could get away with it.

Newbie VVS pilots were told NOT to engage in turn fights...because Newbie pilots stall out while turn fighting no matter how good the plane turns.

Newbie German Me~262 pilots tried to turn with P~51s.

You can't pigeion hole "national" tactics. The idea even sounds STUPID even before you look close like in the examples above. A better idea would be for AI fighters to compare their airplane with the airplane they are targeting or defending against and make Choice as to how to fight, with a random factor dependent on AI skill level that may make the wrong Choice.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

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LEXX_Luthor
01-03-2004, 06:36 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif *oops* I forgot ---> http://www.boardy.de/images/smilies/kopfpatsch.gif

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VW-IceFire
01-03-2004, 07:11 PM
LEXX, a very valid point. But perhaps more of what were looking for then is more oriented towards an even more indepth look by AI pilots (at least veteran and ace levels) at their opponent and then employing the suitable tactics.

- IceFire
http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/spit-sig.jpg

Sturmvogel66
01-03-2004, 08:38 PM
What is wrong with newbie pilots making mistakes? To me that would increase immersion. Say you are flying a flight of 109s, then you spot a flight of I-16s, and then one of the "newbie" I-16s doesn't turn as much as say the leader of the flight does, then he dies. He was not good enough, end of story. To me, this would make a game better, and is a very VERY good idea.

LEXX_Luthor
01-04-2004, 01:04 AM
Agreed SeaFire, but just make sure that the fighting style depends on relative aircraft comparison and NOT "nationality." You better make sure an AI Zero will TnB a P38 but BnZ an I153 (right now Zeroes try to TnB the 153s)...although there are exceptions, from time to time, even among the Great Aces...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Luganski, noticing the top class of his adversary and aware that his own aircraft was almost out of fuel, realized that he had only one chance of surviving - to use the Yak's superior horizontal. The German pilot, obviously certain of his success, entered a turn fight. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

~ http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/luganski/luganski.htm <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Chennault told the brand new Flying Tiger pilots NOT to turn with the Japs. What did they do? They turned with the Japs. They were lucky they could dive away to learn from their mistakes.

But then again, so did the Aces make the same mistakes...

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koniygn
01-04-2004, 01:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
A bad BAD idea.
...
You can't pigeion hole "national" tactics. The idea even sounds STUPID even before you look close like in the examples above. A better idea would be for AI fighters to compare their airplane with the airplane they are targeting or defending against and make Choice as to how to fight, with a random factor dependent on AI skill level that may make the wrong Choice.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In my opinion, i hate the "universal Aerobatics" and "universal tactics" because every AI plane flies with the same way. Sometimes I saw the AI planes "purposely" makes himself into a great disadvantage, such as an under-fire but climbing P-47, an under-fire but diving Zero, or even a damaged plane but it still want to use a loop at alt 200m.... all of those stupidities are created by those "universal aerobatics" or "universal tactics". I must agree that sometimes a P-47 dives away from the attack, but generally all AI planes act similarly in the game. That's why I am asking for a feature of "national" aerobatics and tactics.

LEXX_Luthor
01-04-2004, 01:30 AM
We never said the "universal" tactics were good either, but the "national" suggestion is just as BAD and fake as the "universal" idea.

Think about it. If YOU are right about this, then Oleg can program the AI to Choose fighting style based on "nationality" which means Oleg can program the AI to Choose fighting style based on relative aircraft comparison. Now, YOU need to start thinking about THAT and post some ideas there. We really are in complete agreement about how unreal the "universal" fighting style is. We shall talk again. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

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LEXX_Luthor
01-04-2004, 01:39 AM
A Pacific example will suffice:: What is your idea of how the upcoming Japanese AI Ki~61 "Tony" should Choose to fight against a USN F6F Hellcat? (rumour has it that StarShoy is making a Pacific addon over the FB)

...I am assuming USN Hellcat can out-turn a Japanese Ki61 (SkyChimp would know http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif )...so... what happens?

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LK_Alarmer
01-04-2004, 07:21 AM
What I find most annoying in AI behaviour is the Radar they use.

Just as you get to a good firing range (say 150m) AI does the utmost manouvers and there he goes. You can say, you cant suprise AI ever.

Same goes for bomber gunners, no suprising them, even in clouds.

And the allrdy infamous blood lust should be fixed too. I will cry if I see lonely hurricane following me back to my base in france and blast me off while I land.

I hope oleg uses well the extra CPU power what we have after couple years and uses some to AI too.

LEXX_Luthor
01-04-2004, 10:29 AM
LK_Alarmer:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>And the allrdy infamous blood lust<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If they are outnumbered maybe, depending on random factor perhaps. Still....

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Luganski followed German in a long persuit, to revenge himself for his friend's death, but instead he got himself shot down. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

~ http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/luganski/luganski.htm
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

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NerdConnected
01-04-2004, 01:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
LK_Alarmer:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>And the allrdy infamous blood lust<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If they are outnumbered maybe, depending on random factor perhaps. Still....

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Luganski followed German in a long persuit, to revenge himself for his friend's death, but instead he got himself shot down. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

~ http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/luganski/luganski.htm
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

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_Stanly is a _moron_, kai is a walking dead beet, Xev just want sex._<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agree with your opinion about relative performance. However, that's not enough ;-)

Besides AI that's based on relative performance and relative experience (which is very good I think, but consumes a lot of cpu), AI that's also based upon tactics used by countries during that timeframe.

It was e.g. in the early stages of the war for the British (and Russians) quite common to use flights of three in tight V formation while the Germans used the finger four formation which gave them much more room to manouver.

Later on, the British also used the finger four formation and formed the so-called big wing formations to attack large bombers formations.

Tactics changed during the war. In the early stages of the war the Germans had a clear tactical advantage, but as the war progressed the Allies adopted these tactics and the tactical advantage the Germans had was gone.

It would be very nice if these kind of tactics and their changes during the war are used in FB.

Mark

"The German Army had become so used to having to no air support that they had a simple saying, "If the plane is silver or blue, it's an Allied plane. If it's invisible, it's ours." (EAW manual, The Fall of the Third Reich).

LEXX_Luthor
01-04-2004, 01:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>It would be very nice if these kind of tactics and their changes during the war are used in FB.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Excellent point about formation flying and their combat advantages/disadvantages. The tactics used even by one "nation" are not set in stone. This is an improvement. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I would like to see early WAR Brit and Soviet AI use the one Leader and two Wingmen idea. Another thing is gun convergence. The early WAR Brits were told to set convergence to 400m or something but one rebel squadron who set theirs to 100m or 200m, and eventually the Noob RAF generals listened to them.

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