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View Full Version : dead gunsight, oil on the windshield, holes...



Tvrdi
02-24-2004, 02:33 AM
Guys I must post this.....in german planes your gunsight can drop down (dead) after only one (few) bullets (even from the rear shooting)...it seams that, in VVS planes gunsight NEVER drops,.....furthermore, in german planes oil spreads all over the windshield after one ore few hits (evene from the rear shooting, again)...only one or two vvs planes, I think, has oil spreading (not covering all areas of windshield like in Me109).....and the last not so fair thing of this great game (but not so fair it seams) is bullet holes positions....me109 has one big hole over gunsight and vvs plane has cear gunsight and holes around......what are u think....that must be fixed in the next patch,..and just for the record Im in VVS squad from the beginning so no luftwhinning here possible lol :-)


sorry for my bad english, it is not my native language

Tvrdi
02-24-2004, 02:33 AM
Guys I must post this.....in german planes your gunsight can drop down (dead) after only one (few) bullets (even from the rear shooting)...it seams that, in VVS planes gunsight NEVER drops,.....furthermore, in german planes oil spreads all over the windshield after one ore few hits (evene from the rear shooting, again)...only one or two vvs planes, I think, has oil spreading (not covering all areas of windshield like in Me109).....and the last not so fair thing of this great game (but not so fair it seams) is bullet holes positions....me109 has one big hole over gunsight and vvs plane has cear gunsight and holes around......what are u think....that must be fixed in the next patch,..and just for the record Im in VVS squad from the beginning so no luftwhinning here possible lol :-)


sorry for my bad english, it is not my native language

ajafoofoo
02-24-2004, 02:53 AM
Shh quiet, this is one of those things everyone knows about but doesn't talk openly about with others.

Kinda like how white people are bit lacking in basketball compared to.....omg PC nazis just knocked down my door, gotta run!

Tvrdi
02-24-2004, 03:41 AM
well,...now we will talk heh :-) its time

Bansai Potato
02-24-2004, 03:48 AM
The ridiculous thing is that the oil should only last for a few mins, once its stopped chucking fresh oil out (ie your engine ceases) the oil on your screen will be gradually rolled backwards by the 200 mph+ slipstream its sat in, but that does not seem to be modelled in FB, which is a shame, becuase the alternative of rolling the canopy back and looking out of the side is also not modelled, i think either of the two above features would make a great ammendment to the game which would improve gameplay in full difficulty settings servers, such as VEF and VOW

http://homepage.hispeed.ch/Ede_EAF92/EAF/24890632.92EastIndiaSquadronpersonnel.jpg

SeaFireLIV
02-24-2004, 05:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tvrdi:
me109 has one big hole over gunsight and vvs plane has cear gunsight and holes around......what are u think....that must be fixed in the next patch ....

sorry for my bad english, it is not my native language<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well if the LA5`s or 7`s get hit in the cockpit, the target sight is completely busted (smashed in half and dropped down). So that`s not true. And oil DOES obscure my vision. Your written English is pretty good.

SeaFireLIV...

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/little_armsFB.jpg
The Fights continue out of the Servers...

Tvrdi
02-24-2004, 05:34 AM
interesting..thanks

Tvrdi
02-24-2004, 05:38 AM
seafire, and whats about other VVS planes?... when I said no oil or busted gunsight I was thinking on yaks, laggs and migs.... :-)))

Korolov
02-24-2004, 05:39 AM
Oil on windshield from hits on the Il-2.

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/newsig1.jpg

clint-ruin
02-24-2004, 05:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Korolov:
Oil on windshield from hits on the Il-2.

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/newsig1.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

P-47 as well.

Plus, this never, ever happens when flying around in the Yak:

http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/gwen/fb/dontlook.jpg

I think what we are dealing with here is a certain group of players, who fly only/mostly one 'sides' planes and not anothers. And naturally, since they aren't actually flying them from the cockpit, they have no idea what happens when you take a hit in those planes.

It's stupid.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

Tvrdi
02-24-2004, 06:27 AM
ok, my test results showed that it takes much more hits to have oil on windshield of VVS planes and that gunsight NEVER drops (only in La5,La7 u have medium damage onto gunsight - broken glass), so gunsight is clear..and that oil in VVS looks like somebody drops a cup of coffe lol :-) in me109 u have all canopy full of oil...gunsight busted good and for all....bah I just want for this game to be a fair play guys (VEF and VOW pilots know what I mean)...

clint-ruin
02-24-2004, 06:37 AM
Hi Tvrdi,

I'd be very interested in any tracks you could provide of this to go along with my general DM testing. So far everything I have is done on structural components / systems, but nothing on in-cockpit representations of damage or pilot wounding, etc. Anything you could add to the data pool would be most welcome.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

Flamin_Squirrel
02-24-2004, 07:01 AM
Tvrdi, are you mostly testing the 109 on the Luftwaffe side?

If you are, im afraid the ease of getting the engine damaged is fairly realistic. Although it can be anoying sometimes, especialy as it makes going head to head with someone very dangerous, the 109 was actualy a fairly fragile plane.

F19_Ob
02-24-2004, 07:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tvrdi:
Guys I must post this.....in german planes your gunsight can drop down (dead) after only one (few) bullets (even from the rear shooting)...it seams that, in VVS planes gunsight NEVER drops,.....furthermore, in german planes oil spreads all over the windshield after one ore few hits (evene from the rear shooting, again)...only one or two vvs planes, I think, has oil spreading (not covering all areas of windshield like in Me109).....and the last not so fair thing of this great game (but not so fair it seams) is bullet holes positions....me109 has one big hole over gunsight and vvs plane has cear gunsight and holes around......what are u think....that must be fixed in the next patch,..and just for the record Im in VVS squad from the beginning so no luftwhinning here possible lol :-)


sorry for my bad english, it is not my native language<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



How do u know it was only one or few hits? all bullets dont have tracers.( one hit is required to take out the pilot http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I like the 109 myself but have lately flown allied planes, and it seems to me like many russian planes only can take one hit in the engine and its gone.

In the rata or chaika an enemy only have to fly by close to blow out the rataengine with turbulence?(strange)( happened to me 5 or more times)


In the beginning I also thought allied planes was a bit overmodeled but not any more...and I really cant tell anyway....wonder who can?

Well....I dont worry about such things anymore and try to do a good job regardless the plane I fly they all have strenghts and weaknesses U know.

cheers

SeaFireLIV
02-24-2004, 07:38 AM
Yes, Tvrdi is missing several important points here. A half hour or so test of your favourate aircraft plu a couple of other aircraft is not a test. To truly know what you are talking about you will need to spend MANY hours flying and checking EACH aircraft while making notes.

Also, like someone else has said, all aircraft had different strengths and weakness`. So saying `so and so`s plane is tougher than my plane it`s not fair` does not cut it, if that`s how it was historically.

What you are basically wanting is for ALL planes to have exactly the same damage limits and flight limits- all that would be different would be the look of the plane.

I understand what you are saying, but you need to research more and also check the history books on WWII planes.

SeaFireLIV...

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/little_armsFB.jpg
The Fights continue out of the Servers...

plumps_
02-24-2004, 08:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by clint-ruin:
I think what we are dealing with here is a certain group of players, who fly only/mostly one 'sides' planes and not anothers. And naturally, since they aren't actually flying them from the cockpit, they have no idea what happens when you take a hit in those planes.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's part of the problem, but it's not the whole story.

In fact there is no oil on the screens in LaGG-3, Mig-3 and Fw-190 (maybe others, too). Fw-190 will be reworked in the add-on, what about the others?

In most Yaks the oil will not be triggered by the light MGs of the He-111 I tested them against but by heavier weapons like the .50s of the B-17.

In a La-5fn I could continue the fight even when the oil system was damaged. (Track) (http://home.arcor.de/rayluck/sturmovik/20040224-FB122-La5fn-HE111.zip)

I found no other aircraft that was affected to the same degree as the Bf-109 series.
Not to mention that the screen washing device which the late 109s had isn't modelled either.

http://home.arcor.de/rayluck/sturmovik/zzz-forum-bf109g6-he111.jpg

Yes, the BF-109's engine was very sensitive to small calibre bullets; we know that from various accounts (e. g. Lipfert). But what do we know about all the other aircraft?

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clint-ruin
02-24-2004, 09:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by plumps_:
In fact there is no oil on the screens in LaGG-3, Mig-3 and Fw-190 (maybe others, too). Fw-190 will be reworked in the add-on, what about the others?
In most Yaks the oil will not be triggered by the light MGs of the He-111 I tested them against but by heavier weapons like the .50s of the B-17.
In a La-5fn I could continue the fight even when the oil system was damaged.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think we should probably have lowered expectations of seeing oil spurts from radial engines.

The other part that it pays to look into with FB DMs, generally, is where systems are vulnerable. Surprisingly the Yaks [9x/7b] engine is very vulnerable to damage from hits in the radiator/outlet underneath the cockpit, some 70kmh can be shaved off the aircrafts speed without any advance in the damage state of any textures, or any trails of smoke. I have no idea what this is simulating.

Screenshots have been posted, in previous development updates, of what the internal DMs look like - they're just collosion models placed inside the main 3d model, representing different aircraft systems. Different places are going to be more or less vulnerable to different guns, as you would expect, rounds with high AP capability are much more likely to go through the skin and into one or more internal system.

It may simply be that the very front of the Lagg3s engine has a much higher armour rating than others, I've seen the tracks you're talking about and I presume Oleg has too. I believe he has actually mentioned this at some point before. Whether the real Lagg3s engine could or could not stand up to 7.92mm shots I don't know, but it would be useful to find out what the internal design of it looked like and how much armor the engine really had surrounding it. Certainly one would not expect to damage an Il-2s or P-47s engine much with rifle caliber rounds, other than with shooting at unarmored subsystems directly.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
I found no other aircraft that was affected to the same degree as the Bf-109 series.
Not to mention that the screen washing device which the late 109s had isn't modelled either.

Yes, the BF-109's engine was very sensitive to small calibre bullets; we know that from various accounts (e. g. Lipfert). But what do we know about all the other aircraft?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think it is productive to look into just what oil was used for and where it ran through the Bf109 series.

I have not heard anything about getting re-worked cockpits as well as a CDM for the FW-190, which I presume would be required to get oil on the glass.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

plumps_
02-24-2004, 01:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>clint-ruin wrote:
It may simply be that the very front of the Lagg3s engine has a much higher armour rating than others,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It's a matter of fact that so far the LaGG-3 hasn't got as much attention from the developers as the BF-109. Or have you ever seen a bullet hole in its windows? This is one of the old models that are not up to the standards.
I think that Oleg just gave the answer to this in his announcement about the 'Aces' add-on:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>We did for all "missed" in the past important flyable aircraft the complex damage model.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I hope that the LaGG-3 is one the important aircraft.

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TgD Thunderbolt56
02-24-2004, 01:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ob_swe:


How do u know it was only one or few hits? all bullets dont have tracers.( one hit is required to take out the pilot http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ...


Well....I dont worry about such things anymore and try to do a good job regardless the plane I fly they all have strenghts and weaknesses U know.

cheers<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



My thoughts as well o.b., but I've a feeling (and hopes) some of these potential "Damage Model" issues will be resolved in a week or so. Run on over to ORR to see his latest if you haven't already.



http://home.earthlink.net/~aclzkim1/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/il2sig2.jpg

tttiger
02-24-2004, 01:25 PM
Tvrdi,

I have yet to fly a single Allied fighter aircraft (I rarely fly the MiG or the LaGG, although I seem to recall at least the sights getting shot away in the LaGG) that doesn't have oil splatter the windscreen and sights that are broken and bent by bullets. (I can't recall windscreen oil on the P-39 and that would be accurate as the engine is in the back, but the sights certainly get blown away).

I have no idea what you are talking about. My guess is that the 109 is your favorite airplane and it doesn't prove as uber as you think it should be. You can say the same thing about the P-47 for me. I'm certain it's undermodeled. But I don't think it's a conspiracy or designed to be "unfair" (where does the word "fair" play into all this?).

Whether the model is accurate, is another matter. I'm not sure you could test it against real life.

I was reading a book about P-47s in the 9th AF last night in which there is a story about a dud 40mm AA round penetrating the floor of a P-47 and lodged there. The floor was covered with gasoline but the pilot still managed to land it without blowing up (he refused to bail out). How would you model that? You can't possibly model all the damage variables in a sim.

It waddles like a luftwhine, it quacks like a luftwhine...hmmm...this VVS conspiracy paranoia goes back to the beginning of this game and it gets very tiresome. I personally believe Oleg used complete integrity in making his models. That doesn't automatically make them accurate (the Jug still needs some improvement http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif) but I can't believe he intentionally made the oil spatter or sight damage worse in LW planes than VVS planes. He claims he flies a 109G6AS as his favorite ride.

Just announcing "this isn't a luftwhining" and then proceeding to luftwhine doesn't make it a non-luftwhine.

"You can take a pig and dress it up in a tutu and call it a ballerina. But, really, it's just a pig in a tutu."

Aloha,

ttt

"I want the one that kills the best with the least amount of risk to me"

-- Chuck Yeager describing "The Best Airplane."

[This message was edited by tttiger on Tue February 24 2004 at 12:38 PM.]

[This message was edited by tttiger on Tue February 24 2004 at 12:41 PM.]

[This message was edited by tttiger on Tue February 24 2004 at 12:48 PM.]

JoachimvMayern
02-24-2004, 02:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Classic_EAF92:
The ridiculous thing is that the oil should only last for a few mins, once its stopped chucking fresh oil out (ie your engine ceases) the oil on your screen will be gradually rolled backwards by the 200 mph+ slipstream its sat in, but that does not seem to be modelled in FB, which is a shame, becuase the alternative of rolling the canopy back and looking out of the side is also not modelled, i think either of the two above features would make a great ammendment to the game which would improve gameplay in full difficulty settings servers, such as VEF and VOW<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe in BOB hopefully?

Tvrdi
02-24-2004, 02:28 PM
guys u missed a point here.. I didnt talk about engine damage i talked about OIL SPREADING...in most vvs planes u have only few drops of oil u can say...me109 has almost all canopy covered with oil....and gunsight..i was talking about GUNSIGHT droping....

Tvrdi
02-24-2004, 02:32 PM
in me109 that gunsight is busted very quickly ( and u can loose your gunsight even after taking hits from behind and only in me109)....furthemore Im not the 109 fan Im the fan of fair play (again bla bla Im flying in VVS squad) :-))

ADeadHorse
02-24-2004, 04:00 PM
The inconsistencies the DM in FB are all well known and AEP will hopefully correct them.

tttiger
02-24-2004, 04:16 PM
I think there's a lot of subjective stuff here.

Maybe we need screenshots of the oil on each plane's windscreen and the damage to gunsights so we can compare and contrast them.

I would agree things could be better in a couple of areas:

1. We need a "stick your head out the side" view. WarBirds has had it for a long time and it's almost impossible to land on a carrier without using it. In most WWII fighters, you could open the canopy (or just roll down the window like a car in the P-39 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif). Even in planes without a Canopy like the I-16, it was common practice to open those little side doors so the pilot could lean out and see around that massive cowling.

2. If the reflector site was blown out (or the light bulb quit), most planes still had iron sites. We have iron sites on most planes but there's no way to line them up. There ought to be a head position allowing use of iron sites.

Just a few suggested remedies http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ttt

"I want the one that kills the best with the least amount of risk to me"

-- Chuck Yeager describing "The Best Airplane."

il_gufo
02-24-2004, 04:29 PM
In my very limited experience I have noticed the 109s tendency to throw oil on the windscreen. Offline I've been spending most of my time flying an early war VVS campaign which so far has been I-16 (12 missions) and P-40 (~28 missions). I can't recall ever taking engine hits in the I-16, but in the P-40, if it doesn't stop dead it will make a sound like there is no oil, and sure enough, the oil pressure is dropping and at that point I know I had better find a place to put it down. Never had the gunsight hit or oil splatter. On the other hand I'm only a couple missions into a 109 campaign and I've had the oil on the windscreen maybe 2 missions out of 5.

Does the inverted nature of the 109s engine have anything to do with it? I'm theorizing that the crankshaft placement on the 109 would lead to oil spraying out the top if the crankcase was hit.

Along those lines, anyone know how they kept oil in the crankcase and not collecting the cylinders on top of the pistons? Did the pistons themselves throw enough oil around?

clint-ruin
02-24-2004, 04:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by plumps_:
I hope that the LaGG-3 is one the important aircraft.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unfortunately, Oleg has already replied - around the time of 1.11 - that the Lagg3 does have a CDM and will not be looked at again.

His comment is in one of those 9+ page "Oleg sucks" threads that sprung up after 1.11 in the ORR forum, from memory.

Still, any change would be welcome, as long as it's based on the Lagg3 actually being more vulnerable than it is rather than player complaints :&gt;

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

PE_Mosor
02-24-2004, 07:01 PM
Maybe quantity of oil has to do with fact that german planes have inverted V-engines with oil pan at top...

plumps_
02-24-2004, 07:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by clint-ruin:
Unfortunately, Oleg has already replied - around the time of 1.11 - that the Lagg3 does have a CDM and will not be looked at again.

His comment is in one of those 9+ page "Oleg sucks" threads that sprung up after 1.11 in the ORR forum, from memory.

Still, any change would be welcome, as long as it's based on the Lagg3 actually being more vulnerable than it is rather than player complaints :&gt;

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Could you show me the post where he says that it has a "complex damage model"? All I remember is something like "it won't be changed" or "it's already been changed". In fact it was changed in one of the patches and isn't as invulnerable anymore as it once used to be.

If it does have a CDM then a CDM is obviously not all that is needed to make it look as realistic as other aircraft. The bullet damage textures for the windows are missing, and the oil textures are missing too -- why should we not think that both facts, which both concern the same parts of the cockpit, have the same cause?

It's a lack of damage textures for this specific model, not the result of complex damage modelling in a sturdy aircraft.

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mortoma
02-24-2004, 08:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ante123:
Maybe quantity of oil has to do with fact that german planes have inverted V-engines with oil pan at top...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Um, sorry dude but the oil pan would still have to be on the bottom of a 109 engine. An oil pan always has to be on the bottom so that gravity will send it all down there and then it will be recycled up to the top by an oil pump once again. Once the engine is shut down, it all goes to the oil pan and stays there until restart, of course. You can never have an oil pan on the top of an engine, not ever. No matter what......

Capt.LoneRanger
02-25-2004, 01:46 AM
Well, it really would be nice to be able to use the iron sights, as it was posted here several times before - I mean, before this particular thread.

THe oil-spilling is a little arcadish. It was modelled pretty convincing in SecretWeaponsOfTheLuftwaffe, years ago. If the oil-line was hit, the oil spilled on your front-glass more and more, as you were losing the oil.
I hope BoB will utilize techniques, that are used in racing games, where dust and dirt is really having an effect on the windscreen. Shouldn't be that difficult to program?
It would also add to the overall realism. Just remember the movie "MemphisBelle" and look, how dirty the front screens are, after passing through the FlaK a second time.


greets
Capt.LoneRanger

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|CoB|_Spectre
02-25-2004, 06:10 AM
It seems the level of damage that leads to the oil on the windscreen, broken gunsight, etc., is often accompanied by thick black smoke pouring from the engine cowling. It certainly makes it very difficult to land and nearly impossible to continue to fight with any degree of accuracy. However, an AI plane will continue to fly and fight as though nothing has happened. It would be a definite improvement if the AI DM could include some diminished fight-and-flight capacity when exhibiting comparable engine damage, loss of control surfaces, holed airframe, or fire. This characteristic seems to span the entire range of axis and allied AI aircraft behavior. I know this may not be an exact response to the thread origin, but it is related to the subject.