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SpiritOfNevaeh
09-25-2015, 12:22 AM
I hope this isn't too controversial to post here but I thought this might be of interest since it was a topic of discussion on the forum before. And...spoilers?

Assassin's Creed Syndicate takes a leap towards inclusivity with the series' first transgender character

Ubisoft also updates the series' standard opening text.

Assassin's Creed: Syndicate will include the long-running series' first transgender character.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2015-09-18-assassins-creed-syndicate-takes-a-leap-towards-inclusivity-with-the-series-first-transgender-character

A trans male, Ned Wynert is one of several supporting characters that act as quest givers for Syndicate's protagonists, Jacob and Evie Fry.

Ubisoft has also updated Assassin's Creed's standard opening statement, present since the series' inception, which explains that each game was "designed, developed and produced by a multicultural team of various religious faiths and beliefs."

http://images.eurogamer.net/2013/articles/1/7/8/2/3/3/6/144259281392.png/EG11/resize/300x-1/quality/80/format/jpg/
It's about time: the last AAA game to feature a trans character was last year's Dragon Age: Inquisition.

Syndicate now opens with the text: "Inspired by historical events and characters, this work of fiction was designed, developed, and produced by a multicultural team of various beliefs, sexual orientations and gender identities."

Ubisoft's decision marks a leap forward for inclusivity in the Assassin's Creed series. Syndicate is also the first game in the franchise to allow players a choice between male and female main characters for many of its missions.

The changes come a year after Assassin's Creed: Unity suffered intense criticism for not including a female character option in the game's co-op mode, despite one initially having been in development.

"Inclusiveness is something that's super important for us as a team," Assassin's Creed Syndicate creative director Marc-Alexis Côté told Eurogamer. "We've made a good push towards diversity and how we approach different subjects in the game."

It would be easy to assume that the inclusion of a transgender character was a quick reaction to last year's PR troubles, that the character was created just to tick a box.

But from the two sequences of Syndicate's story that were available to play, it's important to note that Wynert's story does not involve his gender and, in the scenes we saw, is not even remarked upon. Wynert has also not featured in any marketing to date.

http://images.eurogamer.net/2013/articles/1/7/8/2/3/3/6/assassins-creed-syndicate-takes-a-leap-towards-inclusivity-with-the-series-first-transgender-character-144259307577.jpg/EG11/resize/300x-1/quality/80/format/jpg
Dragon Age: Inquisition's Krem was portrayed by Mass Effect and BioShock Infinite voice actress Jennifer Hale, and reappeared in the game's Trespasser DLC.

Asked about the series' changed opening statement, Côté said that the move to update it had come "from a discussion with the team".

"It felt like when we first wrote that for AC1 it was something that was very inclusive. But I've had the chance to work with more than 12 different writers on Syndicate. At one point, one approached me and said that we were not embracing diversity fully enough.

"I had reviewed all our crowd dialogue, I was happy with our two protagonists, but they were talking about the statement at the beginning of the game - that it was exclusive of some people. So I asked for them to propose a new statement," Côté explained.

As for the character of Wynert, Côté added that he wanted players to meet the character and form an opinion themselves, but that he was an accurate reflection of "the Victorian era".

Indeed, Syndicate's 1868 setting is two years prior to the high profile trial of Thomas Ernest Boulton and Frederick William Park. The pair were put on trial for 'conspiring and inciting persons to commit an unnatural offence' after being discovered with Boulton's lover Lord Arthur Clinton while both dressed as women.

Boulton and Park performed under the names Stella Clinton and Fanny Winifred Park as part of a music hall double act, although also lived as women away from the stage. To friends of Lord Clinton and Stella, the couple had lived together until the trial as husband and wife. Boulton and Park were both eventually acquitted, but Lord Clinton died shortly after being charged, and is widely believed to have committed suicide.

Apart from confirming what Côté had said, Ubisoft told Eurogamer that it wanted the game to speak for itself.

pacmanate
09-25-2015, 12:40 AM
Ah yes, the first transgender character not mentioned until a month before release.

Good marketing tactic.

Alphacos007
09-25-2015, 12:47 AM
I don't like the change in the opening text, it's been the same in every single game, even mobiles, since the first one up untill now. For the character, I don't really care. It can be man, woman, straight, gay, bi, trans, whatever, what matters is if the person is interesting or not. I like interesting people and characters, their personal choices don't really matter.

AssassinHMS
09-25-2015, 02:52 AM
they were talking about the statement at the beginning of the game - that it was exclusive of some people

And now EVERYONE’s included :-7
https://mikaelaeb.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/spongebob-rainbow-o.gif


:rolleyes:But, you know, it’s important to include as many people as we can. After all, being Human is not really that inclusive. What really matters and needs to be said is that he’s Muslim and I’m Catholic and that he’s gay and she’s something else… now that’s inclusion! Because it’s the important things (like sexual orientation, religious beliefs or political views, you know, the little things that separate us) that matter and serve as the foundation of our identities.



And apparently, simply saying that “this game was made by bloody Humans” doesn’t work either, perhaps because it’s too obvious. Not to mention pandas might feel left out..

VestigialLlama4
09-25-2015, 03:21 AM
And apparently, simply saying that “this game was made by bloody Humans” doesn’t work either, perhaps because it’s too obvious. Not to mention pandas might feel left out..

Bear in mind that the Victorian Era was a time of such sexual repression that it had an active underground where alternative sexuality thrived. This was an era whose final decade included the birth of Freudian psychology and the trial of Oscar Wilde.

So yes, LGBT issues should be there, in fact it should have been in the games much before this, since they always existed in every culture in every part of history. Like it's incredible that BLACK FLAG with all these pirates and sailors with months on ships doesn't have many/or "any" gay characters since the pirate era's relative freedom also included more, "tolerance" of homosexuality among pirate crews. UNITY for instance dials down Marquis de Sade's bisexuality.

AssassinHMS
09-25-2015, 04:18 AM
Bear in mind that the Victorian Era was a time of such sexual repression that it had an active underground where alternative sexuality thrived. This was an era whose final decade included the birth of Freudian psychology and the trial of Oscar Wilde.

So yes, LGBT issues should be there, in fact it should have been in the games much before this, since they always existed in every culture in every part of history. Like it's incredible that BLACK FLAG with all these pirates and sailors with months on ships doesn't have many/or "any" gay characters since the pirate era's relative freedom also included more, "tolerance" of homosexuality among pirate crews. UNITY for instance dials down Marquis de Sade's bisexuality.

I would agree that those issues should be present if I thought Ubisoft’s purpose with AC was to depict reality as accurately as possible. If these games stood for “realism” then I would agree with you. But can you really say you’re “surprised!” when a franchise about this:
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7pg16uGnh1ryo55ao1_500.png
Fails to be that realistic?

I think you’re expecting way too much from Assassin’s Creed. Realism is not their forte, they can’t even get the core mechanics right.
And they dial down History itself as well as the gameplay, if they didn't dial down Marquis de Sade's bisexuality then I'd say something was off.

SixKeys
09-25-2015, 05:32 AM
And apparently, simply saying that “this game was made by bloody Humans” doesn’t work either, perhaps because it’s too obvious. Not to mention pandas might feel left out..

Ah yes, because pandas and humans are so very alike. It's disgraceful how pandas are ostracized, discriminated against and killed every day for their sexual orientations and gender identities. Good thing that sort of thing doesn't regularly happen in human society.


Anyway, this was highly unexpected, but certainly welcome. As long as they treat the character with dignity and don't make their gender identity their one defining trait. This is excellent news. :)

kosmoscreed
09-25-2015, 07:18 AM
No problem with this as long as is done in a good way and not becuase is "cool" to have a transgender character.

STDlyMcStudpants
09-25-2015, 07:20 AM
gives a whole new meaning to hidden blade...

Sorrosyss
09-25-2015, 08:27 AM
When so many cultures are still backwards on a lot of social issues, I do feel it is important for media such as gaming to promote inclusiveness. There are too many divisions in life, many of which cause conflicts simply for the sake of being different in opinion, race, or beliefs.

I've always argued that the governments of the world have no right to dictate who an individual is allowed to love. Even here in 2015, some mindsets are still in the dark ages on social issues. It will change, and as long as Ubisoft and others like them promote inclusivity then perhaps more minds will be opened.

VestigialLlama4
09-25-2015, 08:39 AM
I would agree that those issues should be present if I thought Ubisoft’s purpose with AC was to depict reality as accurately as possible. If these games stood for “realism” then I would agree with you.

There's no real black-and-white approach in the sense that if you aren't realistic in a naturalist sense, that you can't deal with serious issues and stuff like gender rights and others and so on. It's not an all-or-nothing thing.

Assassin's Creed are not documentaries, never have been, never should be, what they are is essentially 21st Century Alexandre Dumas/George MacDonald Fraser, entertaining adventure stories that also gets stuff about history and society right and does it in an entertaining way.


I think you’re expecting way too much from Assassin’s Creed. Realism is not their forte, they can’t even get the core mechanics right.

Well in terms of expanding the scope of content in video games, in terms of new kinds of settings/stories/characters, AC did a lot right. And content does matter a lot after all.

I mean if it didn't matter and gameplay is the only thing that counts, then nobody should have any objection if your player character was a woman/transgender/bisexual/chinese and so on. But as we can see there are always objections, so clearly it does matter.


And they dial down History itself as well as the gameplay, if they didn't dial down Marquis de Sade's bisexuality then I'd say something was off.

Well they did show Leonardo as gay, and in love with Ezio. If AC2 was a bolder game, they might have made Ezio bisexual and have relationships with Leonardo and Caterina. It was not at all uncommon for aristocrats of that time and place. Or aristocrats of any time and any place. There's a famous rumor after all that Michelangelo was the lover of the Cardinal Giuliano della Rovere, who became Pope Julius II. So they could have put that across but they missed the chance.

In the case of Unity, to truly show Sade, he should have seduced Arno and called him "Mon petit".

SixKeys
09-25-2015, 09:11 AM
Well they did show Leonardo as gay, and in love with Ezio.

Wait, when was Leonardo in love with Ezio? Other than on Tumblr, I mean.

Alphacos007
09-25-2015, 09:18 AM
gives a whole new meaning to hidden blade...

oh my gosh, I'm sorry but I laughed way too much of this.

VestigialLlama4
09-25-2015, 09:22 AM
Wait, when was Leonardo in love with Ezio? Other than on Tumblr, I mean.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuI8DdJgYLY

Take a look at when leonardo puts a hand on Ezio. It's also there when Ezio and Leonardo are sailing from Forli to Venice and Leonardo warns Ezio about Caterina in a jealous tone.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSw2V-3AcFM

Take a look at Leonardo glancing back at Ezio.

I mean I always thought he would have had this huge crush on Ezio but kind of knew it was hopeless. And then in the Da Vinci Disappearance DLC Leonardo finds out that Ezio knew about who he was all this time and as Ezio says, "Leonardo da Vinci, at a loss of words", so I always thought it was this unspoken thing between them.

SofaJockey
09-25-2015, 10:30 AM
The news of a trans character is of course fine (how they are written matters more).

That it remains 'news' is something that will diminish as more games include a wider range of different characters.
I'd like the time to come when a character being gay or trans simply is not news and they stand or fall on the quality of their writing.

If BioWare do it, it is news, but also they have a great track record of inclusion.
That Ubisoft do it it is news because they, er, don't.

Are they just doing it to get on the bandwagon ?
(bearing in mind the pasting they got over ACU for women being 'too much extra work'.)

Don't really care if it is, because tokenism becomes mainstream in time.

Farlander1991
09-25-2015, 10:36 AM
unspoken thing between them

Not always ;)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuI8DdJgYLY

I must say though, I never really saw Leonardo as gay in AC2 (only in retrospective after playing ACB), maybe due to his strange knowledge of Sister Teodora.

But when I've missed the hug prompt in Venice the first time I played, I was so upset that I replayed the whole game just to hug Leonardo. That's also how I discovered you can't replay main missions in AC2.

VestigialLlama4
09-25-2015, 12:44 PM
I must say though, I never really saw Leonardo as gay in AC2 (only in retrospective after playing ACB), maybe due to his strange knowledge of Sister Teodora.

It might be she provides male prostitutes too, it's just that we don't see that clientelle. In real life, Leonardo was briefly arrested for charges of "sodomy" for soliciting a male prostitute. Bear in mind also that prostitutes during the Renaissance also served as models for paintings, both male and female, so it was quite common for artists to associate with brothels for reasons not having to do with sex.

Journey95
09-25-2015, 12:44 PM
Who gives a ****?

If its anything like Krem (which was basically just a lecture from Bioware to the players) then please no

Tired of companies appealing to every minority and all this political correctness bs. Marketing it is ridiculous.

VestigialLlama4
09-25-2015, 01:00 PM
Are they just doing it to get on the bandwagon ?

Bandwagon?! Where are the squadron of games with Trans characters for Ubisoft to cut in and join the cha-cha dance. Did Call of Duty and Gears of War have trans characters?


Don't really care if it is, because tokenism becomes mainstream in time.

Tokenism is not enough obviously, but it's still better than not showing it at all. If you are having a minor character in a time and place, why not give them a certain identity, it doesn't make the story any worse after all.


Tired of companies appealing to every minority and all this political correctness bs.

Why the over-reaction? I mean it's only two companies that have done this and now ou are saying all companies do this. Sheesh.

dxsxhxcx
09-25-2015, 01:04 PM
Marketing it is ridiculous.

I agree with this, I'm all for including minorities in any form of media but when I see companies marketing it this way, IMO it loses all its value, it's a clear response to last year controversy for not including a female character and not a true attempt to raise awareness, the impact would've been much bigger if the players were caught by surprise once they played the game...

D.I.D.
09-25-2015, 01:16 PM
This is the second transgender character, but they got the first one rather offensively wrong.

We met the Chevalier d'Eon in Unity in a few missions. They used the character for humour, but got everything wrong in the process. The Chevalier maintain for decades until her death that she was female, but when her body was examined after her death she was found to have male genitals (and so would be viewed as male by science and society at the time). Her gender was the subject of a great deal of conjecture in her lifetime, and the government made use of her ability to present as different genders for espionage. Alex Amancio reduced a fascinating person to a one-note crude pantomime.

VestigialLlama4
09-25-2015, 01:25 PM
Alex Amancio reduced a fascinating person to a one-note crude pantomime.

I highly doubt Amancio had much input on that. He most likely told the side missions people to come up with stuff while he focused on general gameplay. The blame should properly be directed to ubisoft's overall management and team, and not any one person.

D.I.D.
09-25-2015, 01:33 PM
I highly doubt Amancio had much input on that. He most likely told the side missions people to come up with stuff while he focused on general gameplay. The blame should properly be directed to ubisoft's overall management and team, and not any one person.

I think that's too fair. It's true that there's a whole team to consider but he was co-writer and CD, so he's responsible for writing it and/or allowing it.

(By the way, I certainly don't want to see a culture where you can't have humour involving transgender characters, but the way it's used has importance. I was a bit taken aback that this character would be treated this way. It's not just a little bit wrong, but so far off as to be contemptuous. Maybe he barely skim-read the info on a lot of people and situations in Unity, but that's still deserving of criticism, if so.)

SixKeys
09-25-2015, 01:55 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuI8DdJgYLY

Take a look at when leonardo puts a hand on Ezio. It's also there when Ezio and Leonardo are sailing from Forli to Venice and Leonardo warns Ezio about Caterina in a jealous tone.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSw2V-3AcFM

Take a look at Leonardo glancing back at Ezio.

I mean I always thought he would have had this huge crush on Ezio but kind of knew it was hopeless. And then in the Da Vinci Disappearance DLC Leonardo finds out that Ezio knew about who he was all this time and as Ezio says, "Leonardo da Vinci, at a loss of words", so I always thought it was this unspoken thing between them.

LOL

Ah yes, because gay people can't give someone a friendly pat on the back without it being an obvious pass. :rolleyes: And I never heard any jealousy in Leo's voice in the Caterina scene. It's always possible to read things that way, but it's by no means canon or even implied.

VestigialLlama4
09-25-2015, 01:56 PM
I think that's too fair. It's true that there's a whole team to consider but he was co-writer and CD, so he's responsible for writing it and/or allowing it.

(By the way, I certainly don't want to see a culture where you can't have humour involving transgender characters, but the way it's used has importance. I was a bit taken aback that this character would be treated this way. It's not just a little bit wrong, but so far off as to be contemptuous. Maybe he barely skim-read the info on a lot of people and situations in Unity, but that's still deserving of criticism, if so.)

I do know that Amancio in one interview he spoke dismissively about the Database in AC. He said "We have this database and well, some people read it I think" which suggests a level of dismissal to that part of the audience that does in fact read it. It may not be the lion's share but it's still there. It's reflected in the fact that Unity has far and away the worst written and most blatantly false of all the databases in the series.

SixKeys
09-25-2015, 02:01 PM
I agree with this, I'm all for including minorities in any form of media but when I see companies marketing it this way, IMO it loses all its value, it's a clear response to last year controversy for not including a female character and not a true attempt to raise awareness, the impact would've been much bigger if the players were caught by surprise once they played the game...

This argument often comes up whenever someone being trans is mentioned in any situation. "Why do they have to mention he/she is trans? Why is it such an issue?"

It's important for trans people to hear about media that gives them representation. It's still incredibly rare to have trans characters in games, so trans people who would like to see people like themselves in media might be happy to hear about this one game where their existence is acknowledged. It might even be reason enough for them to buy the game even if they're not AC fans, to show their support for more inclusiveness.

VestigialLlama4
09-25-2015, 02:07 PM
LOL

Ah yes, because gay people can't give someone a friendly pat on the back without it being an obvious pass.

Pay attention to the context of the dialogue. Leonardo is talking about painting women (the Mona Lisa), Ezio is telling Leonardo not to get too focused on the girl that he doesn't make his upgrades. Leonardo says, "Have no worries, women provide no distractions" and puts an arm over him. It's a little crude but the suggestion is that he is trying to check if Ezio is maybe interested. I mean it's partly joking on Leonardo's part. He does joke around Ezio like in AC2 where he tricks Ezio into thinking he's going to cut off his finger.


And I never heard any jealousy in Leo's voice in the Caterina scene. It's always possible to read things that way, but it's by no means canon or even implied.

These kinds of things are more on the level of subtext, rather than having to be "canonical". Obviously nothing happened between Ezio and Leonardo because Ezio is super-straight.To me, Leonardo having feelings towards Ezio doesn't ruin their friendship at all, it just adds poignancy to it. And obviously Leonardo eventually did find a boyfriend, this Salai guy, who might be a flawed individual but obviously they care for each other a lot. So it's not like Ezio was his one true love or anything.

In any case gay men can have crushes on straight guys, just as straight guys have had crushes on lesbian women. It's that issue of incompatible orientation. and obviously Leonardo isn't wrong at all to check if Ezio is interested or anything. After all that famous movie Rebel Without A Cause has a bisexual love triangle, James Dean is the eye candy for the girl and this other boy. And Ezio is pretty much the James Dean of the AC games.

cawatrooper9
09-25-2015, 02:29 PM
I think it's great that they're doing this...
I just can't shake the feeling that it's a big marketing tactic, though, rather than done in solidarity with the transgender community.

SixKeys
09-25-2015, 02:30 PM
Pay attention to the context of the dialogue. Leonardo is talking about painting women (the Mona Lisa), Ezio is telling Leonardo not to get too focused on the girl that he doesn't make his upgrades. Leonardo says, "Have no worries, women provide no distractions" and puts an arm over him. It's a little crude but the suggestion is that he is trying to check if Ezio is maybe interested. I mean it's partly joking on Leonardo's part. He does joke around Ezio like in AC2 where he tricks Ezio into thinking he's going to cut off his finger.

I disagree. The way I read it is that Leo assumes Ezio is already aware of his orientation and is being kind of "nudge-nudge-wink-wink" about it, until he realizes Ezio didn't actually know. Then he quickly removes his hand and looks away in embarrassment, like "oh....I guess I shouldn't have said anything".


These kinds of things are more on the level of subtext, rather than having to be "canonical". Obviously nothing happened between Ezio and Leonardo because Ezio is super-straight.To me, Leonardo having feelings towards Ezio doesn't ruin their friendship at all, it just adds poignancy to it. And obviously Leonardo eventually did find a boyfriend, this Salai guy, who might be a flawed individual but obviously they care for each other a lot. So it's not like Ezio was his one true love or anything.

I'm saying there is no subtext. I have no problem with people writing their own headcanons about such things, but the way you worded your statement made it seem like it was fact, which it isn't. Yes, it's a fact Leo is gay; no, it's not a fact that he was in love with Ezio. The only scene that could be interpreted as having that subtext is the scene in Venice where Leo tries to hug you and if you miss the QTE, he looks hurt and disappointed. But even that doesn't necessarily carry any subtext, Leo's just a friendly and sensitive guy in general.

Perk89
09-25-2015, 04:17 PM
Eh, I was already really skeptical on the game itself. If I have to deal with more liberal propaganda, then I think this is likely the year I call it quits on the series overall.

Plenty of great games out there this year anyways.

VestigialLlama4
09-25-2015, 04:31 PM
Eh, I was already really skeptical on the game itself. If I have to deal with more liberal propaganda, then I think this is likely the year I call it quits on the series overall.

If liberal propaganda bothered you so much how come you have stuck around so far. All the games are liberal so far.

SixKeys
09-25-2015, 04:38 PM
Eh, I was already really skeptical on the game itself. If I have to deal with more liberal propaganda, then I think this is likely the year I call it quits on the series overall.

Plenty of great games out there this year anyways.

You do realize AC has always been a liberal series? Well, except for Unity maybe.

I-Like-Pie45
09-25-2015, 04:46 PM
unity was not a story it was a documentary!

Hans684
09-25-2015, 05:01 PM
Eh, I was already really skeptical on the game itself. If I have to deal with more liberal propaganda, then I think this is likely the year I call it quits on the series overall.

Plenty of great games out there this year anyways.

I'm guessing you don't support the Assassins freedom fighting either then. It's liberal after all.

Jessigirl2013
09-25-2015, 05:06 PM
I don't see why they need to change the text.. its iconic for the series

Unlike the rope launcher... *cough.


Back to matters...
I don't see why changing the text is needed and its a shame since its been the same since the start of the franchise.

Perk89
09-25-2015, 05:32 PM
I'm guessing you don't support the Assassins freedom fighting either then. It's liberal after all.


This is such a closed minded viewpoint it's a wonder you identify with the Assassins at all.

As for everybody else, while there has been liberal brushstrokes across the elements of the narrative at times, the Assassins themselves and the larger plot have been largely fairly independent and for a while, entertaining.

The notion that the Assassins are some mouthpiece for the 21st century liberal narrative only blossoms from the fact that the Assassins are the "good guys" in the story, hence, liberal players see the equation as follows

"Good protagonists + liberal player must be = to liberal protagonist."

It's a natural human reaction of course but an ironic one given the open minded preachiness of the game.

I'd also point out that Revelations, AC3, and Unity all had conservative underpinnings in their narrative, and, likely not coincidentally, these 3 games all received criticism for their story. (Though in fairness Arno was a pretty drab character and that's a fairly wide consensus.))

Hans684
09-25-2015, 05:51 PM
This is such a closed minded viewpoint it's a wonder you identify with the Assassins at all.

Says the one calling the second transsexual in AC is "liberal propaganda."(the first one is from Initiates.) Didn't know equality is close minded, if that's the case we might as well bring back slavery because clearly people's rights don't matter. Or even better, return to the crusades as those kinds of people are worth less than straights. As for what I identify with, you judge to fast.

cawatrooper9
09-25-2015, 05:54 PM
Eh, I was already really skeptical on the game itself. If I have to deal with more liberal propaganda, then I think this is likely the year I call it quits on the series overall.

Plenty of great games out there this year anyways.

Haha, you'll quit the series because they added a transgender character?

Don't let the door hit you on the way out!

VestigialLlama4
09-25-2015, 05:55 PM
The notion that the Assassins are some mouthpiece for the 21st century liberal narrative only blossoms from the fact that the Assassins are the "good guys" in the story, hence, liberal players see the equation as follows

You are aware that "liberal" is a broad label, not limited to American electoral politics right? As for 21st Century liberal narrative, I am afraid AC has been that from the beginning. It takes two religious organizations, Templars and Asasiyun and reimagines them as secular humanists. It does that because it assumes that most audiences who would buy a game with an Arab hero would probably be liberal and would naturally not want to play as a Nizari Twelver Shia that constitutes the Asasiyun. So that is the classic liberal bias right there.

The Assassins are, quite literally, social justice warriors.


I'd also point out that Revelations, AC3, and Unity all had conservative underpinnings in their narrative, and, likely not coincidentally, these 3 games all received criticism for their story. (Though in fairness Arno was a pretty drab character and that's a fairly wide consensus.))

AC3 Conservative? In any case Revelations showing the Ottoman Empire in a more positive fashion than most Western depictions is in fact pretty liberal. A conservative depiction would have made the Byzantine or Eastern Romans the heroes obsessing for their lost empire (not coincidentally Greek Far Right dreams of reconquering the old empire), when in fact the Ottomans are doing their job better than they did for two hundred years since the Fourh Crusade stabbed them in the back.

JimmySaysUDie
09-25-2015, 06:19 PM
Jesus Christ Llama, do you break out the history books and an encyclopedia whenever you post lol?

VestigialLlama4
09-25-2015, 06:29 PM
Jesus Christ, do you break out the history books and an encyclopedia when you post lol?

Should I take this as a compliment or not? Anyway, I happen to know quite a bit of this stuff. I always did like history as a kid.

JimmySaysUDie
09-25-2015, 07:13 PM
Fair question as I usually am an *** on these forums. I believe I even called you a "pompous ***" earlier this week in a post. I apologize sir, as after reading your other posts it is clear the tone of the original post I read does not reflect your actual persona.

It was meant as a compliment. When I read your post I was just taken aback by the level of detail of the information presented. You made very good points, although; I am not sure I quite agree with your premise on an Arab Hero at the beginning, but anywho....

In regards to Ubisoft's timing of this announcement, well, it just seems odd. I don't think it is a bad thing, as previously mentioned by Sixkeys, to have a forum of media that gives a lesser known minority a voice (Not sure minority is the right terminology but you get my point). However, why now so randomly? I'm just not sure the original intention of including such a character was really for the benefit of the transgender community.

VestigialLlama4
09-25-2015, 07:26 PM
In regards to Ubisoft's timing of this announcement, well, it just seems odd. I don't think it is a bad thing, as previously mentioned by Sixkeys, to have a forum of media that gives a lesser known minority a voice (Not sure minority is the right terminology but you get my point). However, why now so randomly? I'm just not sure the original intention of including such a character was really for the benefit of the transgender community.

Well it's not odd in terms of timing. Bear in mind that the last two days have a torrential downpour of information on Syndicate. Gameplay trailers from Two sequences, a Story Trailer, several previews. Within that space, one small article at Eurogamer (not a website you go to pander to the Transgender community, its kind of a fancy gaming magazine-site) is not really any big announcement at all. It's just a small thing. It's not like Ubisoft threw a Press Conference and invited everyone to announce this.

The point is why does it matter if Ubisoft included this to pander to the transgender community or to improve its image. I mean it's what it is. It's a minor character and it's interesting but why act as if this is Ubisoft jumping on any bandwagon. The over-reaction is puzzling especially people who say that gameplay matters. If gameplay matters more than story then this should not matter to you.

JimmySaysUDie
09-25-2015, 08:07 PM
Well it's not odd in terms of timing. Bear in mind that the last two days have a torrential downpour of information on Syndicate. Gameplay trailers from Two sequences, a Story Trailer, several previews. Within that space, one small article at Eurogamer (not a website you go to pander to the Transgender community, its kind of a fancy gaming magazine-site) is not really any big announcement at all. It's just a small thing. It's not like Ubisoft threw a Press Conference and invited everyone to announce this.

The point is why does it matter if Ubisoft included this to pander to the transgender community or to improve its image. I mean it's what it is. It's a minor character and it's interesting but why act as if this is Ubisoft jumping on any bandwagon. The over-reaction is puzzling especially people who say that gameplay matters. If gameplay matters more than story then this should not matter to you.

It's not a over-reaction so much as just stating an opinion. I don't really care about the character's sexual orientation, I'm just saying with all the recent publicity on the transgender community - AKA Bruce = Kait - it seems like the decision was tailored to fit the current social atmosphere. In other words, it has nothing to do with either pandering to a community or image control - just straight up dead presidents.

D.I.D.
09-26-2015, 04:55 AM
just straight up dead presidents.

Do you seriously think that there is a massive profit to be made for AAA games from transgender politics?

Even if we pretend this is true, do you think AC (probably the most lucrative action-adventure videogame series that has ever existed, and one of the biggest games franchises that has ever existed regardless of genre) needs that money?

There's an argument for saying that adding playable women to this series is a move towards profit from the half of the gaming population that's not been represented so far, given that the inclusion of female characters is a thing that will appeal to a lot of men and women alike. It would seem rather offensively cynical to say that given that the inclusion of female playable characters in the main series is simply a thing that ought to happen after the paucity of women so far, but at a push you could. It wouldn't be a good argument about preventing that change from happening, however.

Going from a 50/50 split of the population to examining the inclusion of non-heterosexual characters and transgender characters, and the idea that it's done simply for money is incredibly shaky. I think you ought to accept that they're doing it where it's appropriate in the interests of representing a living society, and providing a bit of enriching historical scope. Is it cultural opportunism, or more a case of cultural shifts opening a door to an inclusivity which is overdue - something that would have happened in any decade once the moment was right (or ceased to be wrong)? If sci-fi set in the future can use fiction to comment about factors of the audience's lives in the present, why can't historical fiction use factual information to do the same thing?

SixKeys
09-26-2015, 09:26 AM
It's not a over-reaction so much as just stating an opinion. I don't really care about the character's sexual orientation, I'm just saying with all the recent publicity on the transgender community - AKA Bruce = Kait - it seems like the decision was tailored to fit the current social atmosphere. In other words, it has nothing to do with either pandering to a community or image control - just straight up dead presidents.


Just here to point out that gender identity and sexual orientation are not the same thing.


Even if this was a "pandering" move - so what? Straight, cis players have been pandered to since the very beginning. It's funny how moves to be more inclusive are always seen as pandering but narratives featuring straight, mostly white cis heroes is not.


Trust me, there aren't so many stories with straight cis white male protagonists because devs are just dying to tell the stories of these unsung heroes. It is pandering to what the industry still (mistakenly, as has been proven by numerous studies) presumes is its main audience. Every time the hero has a hetero love interest - that is pandering. Every time the hero is cis - that is pandering. Every time the hero is white - that is pandering. You just may not notice it because you (the straight white male gamer) have been pandered to all your life. Therefore every deviation from that is seen as pandering to other groups, because straight white cis players feel entitled to be pandered to. They don't realize that every game that features a hero that matches their own gender, race and sexual orientation is equally pandering. The Ezio games were pandering of the highest order to straight white male players. But it suddenly only becomes a problem when other groups get pandered to by having a single non-cis character in the mix.

AssassinHMS
09-26-2015, 02:41 PM
Ah yes, because pandas and humans are so very alike. It's disgraceful how pandas are ostracized, discriminated against and killed every day for their sexual orientations and gender identities. Good thing that sort of thing doesn't regularly happen in human society.

Yes and why’s that? Because they’re JUST pandas. They don’t pretend to be anything more than that. They don’t make moral compasses up and they don’t stand for causes or values, they stand only and exclusively for themselves. There is no Right or Wrong and no made up consensus. “Right”, for them, could be seen as anything that is beneficial to them and “wrong” would be anything that’s detrimental to their own life/survival/biological program. Other gender identities or sexual orientations (than their own) pose no threat to their survival, therefore there is no reason to act upon them and they do not perceive them as being “wrong”.
However, in our world, full of beliefs, made-up morals and countless causes, “alternative” sexual orientations and gender identities do pose a threat, not to our survival (of course) but to said belief systems, moral compasses and causes.

So you see, it’s “INCLUSION” that started these problems, inclusion through a shared artificial mentality based on manufactured principles/beliefs. When you include you automatically exclude as well.

rob.davies2014
09-26-2015, 03:04 PM
Amazing news! Very glad Ubi are including a trans character.

VestigialLlama4
09-26-2015, 03:28 PM
Yes and why’s that? Because they’re JUST pandas. They don’t pretend to be anything more than that. They don’t make moral compasses up and they don’t stand for causes or values, they stand only and exclusively for themselves. There is no Right or Wrong and no made up consensus. “Right”, for them, could be seen as anything that is beneficial to them and “wrong” would be anything that’s detrimental to their own life/survival/biological program. Other gender identities or sexual orientations (than their own) pose no threat to their survival, therefore there is no reason to act upon them and they do not perceive them as being “wrong”.
However, in our world, full of beliefs, made-up morals and countless causes, “alternative” sexual orientations and gender identities do pose a threat, not to our survival (of course) but to said belief systems, moral compasses and causes.

I feel we need to cheer you up. I got just the song for you.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRHqs8SffDo


So you see, it’s “INCLUSION” that started these problems, inclusion through a shared artificial mentality based on manufactured principles/beliefs. When you include you automatically exclude as well.

I am reminded of Humpty Dumpty in Lewis Carroll's Through the Looking Glass:

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master—that's all."

Always bear that in mind when you decide to use inclusion to mean something that it is not.

AssassinHMS
09-26-2015, 04:21 PM
I am reminded of Humpty Dumpty in Lewis Carroll's Through the Looking Glass:

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master—that's all."

Always bear that in mind when you decide to use inclusion to mean something that it is not.

So you expect my inclusion to be your inclusion?

VestigialLlama4
09-26-2015, 04:34 PM
So you expect my inclusion to be your inclusion?

Exactly. Glad that we got that out of the way.

All kidding aside, let Syndicate come out. There's no point complaining about stuff without us actually playing or seeing it. None of the gameplay footage features this transgender character.

Who knows, perhaps the very presence of such a figure offsets or brings to bear all of the issues of the game's core mechanics all by itself. The five secs or minutes of the character's appearance in a 15-20 hrs game will define and embody all of Ubisoft's problems in the way that Unity's glitch-fest does not and all by itself provides an argument on why games should not pander even the tiniest morsel of 5 minutes to the trans community in the biggest map of a 30 hrs game.

AssassinHMS
09-26-2015, 05:02 PM
Exactly. Glad that we got that out of the way.

All kidding aside, let Syndicate come out. There's no point complaining about stuff without us actually playing or seeing it. None of the gameplay footage features this transgender character.

Who knows, perhaps the very presence of such a figure offsets or brings to bear all of the issues of the game's core mechanics all by itself. The five secs or minutes of the character's appearance in a 15-20 hrs game will define and embody all of Ubisoft's problems in the way that Unity's glitch-fest does not and all by itself provides an argument on why games should not pander even the tiniest morsel of 5 minutes to the trans community in the biggest map of a 30 hrs game.

Sure.

I couldn’t care less about that character (Syndicate or even Assassin’s Creed for that matter). If anything, I like said addition simply because I can appreciate the realism it brings (however little it may be).
What caught my attention was the change in the opening statement. I was never fond of it and this change didn’t help.

Shahkulu101
09-26-2015, 05:08 PM
The opening statement always annoyed me too.

Be brave enough to just do it without the silly disclaimer, if people get offended, screw them - you're making art. Being scared of how people may react to mature themes present in your work is...immature.

AssassinHMS
09-26-2015, 05:16 PM
Be brave enough to just do it without the silly disclaimer, if people get offended, screw them - you're making art. Being scared of how people may react to mature themes present in your work is...immature.

Now that would make a better opening statement..

VestigialLlama4
09-26-2015, 07:58 PM
The opening statement always annoyed me too.

Be brave enough to just do it without the silly disclaimer, if people get offended, screw them - you're making art. Being scared of how people may react to mature themes present in your work is...immature.

The disclaimer is there for legal reasons, not for aesthetic reasons.

pacmanate
09-26-2015, 09:13 PM
The disclaimer is there for legal reasons, not for aesthetic reasons.

lies. Its pretty af.

ze_topazio
09-26-2015, 09:17 PM
I heard the disclaimer was put there because sometime after AC1 announcement Ubisoft received some complaints and threats from some religious people.

VestigialLlama4
09-26-2015, 09:25 PM
I heard the disclaimer was put there because sometime after AC1 announcement Ubisoft received some complaints and threats from some religious people.

Well AC1 and AC2 are quite controversial in terms of religious issues. AC1 set in Crusades with an Arab hero and AC2 which ends with you beating up the Pope, so obviously they need to put that up there. The later games are less controversial religiously for sure and I guess it's a general artifact.

All movies have these disclaimers. It's not a big deal.

Mr.Black24
09-27-2015, 05:06 AM
I just hope that the character is a well developed one that has an actual role in the story and not just a cut out cardboard figure going "Hey, look over here I'm trans". If your going to make a character, you better do it right and respectful. I'm positive that they'll do good though, as they've done their homework on creating elaborate characters like Connor, really well. Can't wait to see this person in action!


This is such a closed minded viewpoint it's a wonder you identify with the Assassins at all.


As for everybody else, while there has been liberal brushstrokes across the elements of the narrative at times, the Assassins themselves and the larger plot have been largely fairly independent and for a while, entertaining.


The notion that the Assassins are some mouthpiece for the 21st century liberal narrative only blossoms from the fact that the Assassins are the "good guys" in the story, hence, liberal players see the equation as follows


"Good protagonists + liberal player must be = to liberal protagonist."


It's a natural human reaction of course but an ironic one given the open minded preachiness of the game.


I'd also point out that Revelations, AC3, and Unity all had conservative underpinnings in their narrative, and, likely not coincidentally, these 3 games all received criticism for their story. (Though in fairness Arno was a pretty drab character and that's a fairly wide consensus.))

Because heaven forbid we treat all people of every type with kindness and respect, and give them their fair share of attention. :rolleyes:

Jessigirl2013
09-27-2015, 08:08 AM
unity was not a story it was a documentary!

And yet I still don't really understand the French revolution
;)

Its hilarious how much they played it up before launch.


Is anyone annoyed about the text being changed at the start?

It just seems unnecessary, especially since its the second to be featured in the series not the first as some claim.


unity was not a story it was a documentary!


Well AC1 and AC2 are quite controversial in terms of religious issues. AC1 set in Crusades with an Arab hero and AC2 which ends with you beating up the Pope, so obviously they need to put that up there. The later games are less controversial religiously for sure and I guess it's a general artifact.

All movies have these disclaimers. It's not a big deal.

As a Christian I've never had any issues with the franchise.;)

'Beating up the pope' made me chuckle.:rolleyes:

I expect Syndicate could be more controversial as it includes the shroud, which was in the possession on Jesus at some point.
The series as a whole states that there is no god as we know it ;) so all games have had this notion, they just don't proclaim it like AC2.

I don't understand how AC1 was controversial, am I being stupid?

VestigialLlama4
09-27-2015, 09:42 AM
As a Christian I've never had any issues with the franchise.;)

'Beating up the pope' made me chuckle.:rolleyes:

...
I don't understand how AC1 was controversial, am I being stupid?

It's actually my mistake, when I said controversial, I meant potentially controversial. A game with an Arab hero during the Crusades, an Arab hero who works for an organization that, whatever other differences that exist, is on the surface similar in profile to today's terrorists, is on paper controversial. It has the potential for controversy. The same way AC2 with it's Pope Punching is potentially controversial, I mean it is far and away the most blasphemous moment in the whole games. So that's why you have these disclaimers in the game. It's also reflected in how they frame the game itself.

Now of course these games didn't turn out to be controversial for a variety of reasons. In the case of AC1, it's because of the Modern Day. If they had made it a full historical game with no distance between player and Altair, it would very much be about you playing Altair and being part of it. With the MD and Desmond, it's not really a straight historical story about this organization, it has this quasi-time travel to it, so there is this detachment. The other reason is that Altair and the Asasiyun are reimagined as secular humanists as are the Templars, and the religious dimension is neuteured with Arab Templars so the whole issues get scattered and reframed. In the case of AC2, with Ezio, for one thing he is less overtly atheistic than Altair. Altair says stuff like "It was not God, it was skill" whereas Ezio doesn't ever say anything concrete against religion. At the end of AC2, it's Pope Alexander VI who calls religion bunk and Ezio calls him out for his hypocrisy. So they kind of dialled it down there, and in a good fashion.


I expect Syndicate could be more controversial as it includes the shroud, which was in the possession on Jesus at some point.
The series as a whole states that there is no god as we know it ;) so all games have had this notion, they just don't proclaim it like AC2.

Well the Catholic Church has mostly given up about the Shroud. And I don't know, saying the Shroud is a First Civ Relic of some sorts at least confirms the Church were vaguely right.

SixKeys
09-27-2015, 10:07 AM
I don't understand how AC1 was controversial, am I being stupid?

Well, the game did state that in its universe Jesus and Moses were charlatans who never actually performed miracles. They used the Apple to create illusions.

Al Mualim: "That's all it's ever done, this Templar treasure, this Piece of Eden, this 'word of God'. Do you understand now? The Red Sea was never parted, water never turned to wine. It was not the machinations of Eris that spawned the Trojan War, but this! Illusions, all of them!"

The whole Eden stuff in itself is potentially controversial as well, though it wasn't really explained in-depth until AC2. In the AC universe all gods are explained to be nothing more than man-made stories and illusions. Eden wasn't a heavenly garden, it was a First Civ location where humans were bred to be slaves. If you look at it from a symbolic POV, the game appears to make a statement about religion/gods being something that enslaves our minds, and the only way for humans to be free and to realize what the world is really like is to break through this illusion. The Creed says "nothing is true, everything is permitted", meaning that there are no ultimate, God-given morals, no objective concepts of right and wrong. Literally everything is permitted because there is no divine being watching over us. So technically we could all go crazy and start murdering each other willy-nilly and there would be no divine punishment for it later.

This is what Edward misunderstands at first in AC4, he doesn't see what good comes from a creed that basically tells people they are free to do whatever they please. Ah Tabai explains to him that in addition to freedom, the Creed also advocates taking responsibility for your actions. Technically you're free to do whatever you want without fear that God will punish you for it later, but you will have to live with the consequences of your choices. Essentially the entire game is named after a Creed that advocates a secular way of life. That's why it's potentially controversial.

EmptyCrustacean
09-27-2015, 12:16 PM
Aaaaand typically we get the "sjw forcing everything into everyting!" backlash from certains sections of the white male community who never believe they're being pandered to as well:

:rolleyes:


Haha, you'll quit the series because they added a transgender character?

Don't let the door hit you on the way out!

lol :D

And do turn the lights out when you leave, darling!

LoyalACFan
09-27-2015, 04:23 PM
This sounds like it could be cool if it's done right, but given that they're JUST NOW talking about it right before the game launches makes it smell like a ploy to generate buzz about the game. And strictly speaking, this isn't the first trans character in the series, there was also the Chevalier d'Eon in the Paris Stories (who, granted, wasn't much of a character, just a generic cutout to say "look how diverse this game is").

I think it's critical that they don't make this new character too "open" or accepted by society, otherwise he just becomes an insincere token character. Like someone (VestigialLlama?) said earlier in this thread, the Victorian era was one of the most sexually-repressed times in modern Western history, so to have a character walking around broadcasting the fact that they're transgender would be stupid inauthentic diversity (hell, trans people are still one of the least accepted minorities in the first world today). I think it would be a nice touch if he was only "open" to Evie, the more intellectual and forward-thinking twin, and not to Jacob, the street thug.

Farlander1991
09-27-2015, 04:37 PM
I think it would be a nice touch if he was only "open" to Evie, the more intellectual and forward-thinking twin, and not to Jacob, the street thug.

But precisely the opposite (i.e. opening up to Jacob) would be more dramatically interesting, maybe even used to forward both that character's and Jacob's character arcs.

EmptyCrustacean
09-27-2015, 04:49 PM
Um, why were my links removed?

Jessigirl2013
09-27-2015, 05:34 PM
It's actually my mistake, when I said controversial, I meant potentially controversial. A game with an Arab hero during the Crusades, an Arab hero who works for an organization that, whatever other differences that exist, is on the surface similar in profile to today's terrorists, is on paper controversial. It has the potential for controversy. The same way AC2 with it's Pope Punching is potentially controversial, I mean it is far and away the most blasphemous moment in the whole games. So that's why you have these disclaimers in the game. It's also reflected in how they frame the game itself.

Now of course these games didn't turn out to be controversial for a variety of reasons. In the case of AC1, it's because of the Modern Day. If they had made it a full historical game with no distance between player and Altair, it would very much be about you playing Altair and being part of it. With the MD and Desmond, it's not really a straight historical story about this organization, it has this quasi-time travel to it, so there is this detachment. The other reason is that Altair and the Asasiyun are reimagined as secular humanists as are the Templars, and the religious dimension is neuteured with Arab Templars so the whole issues get scattered and reframed. In the case of AC2, with Ezio, for one thing he is less overtly atheistic than Altair. Altair says stuff like "It was not God, it was skill" whereas Ezio doesn't ever say anything concrete against religion. At the end of AC2, it's Pope Alexander VI who calls religion bunk and Ezio calls him out for his hypocrisy. So they kind of dialled it down there, and in a good fashion.



Well the Catholic Church has mostly given up about the Shroud. And I don't know, saying the Shroud is a First Civ Relic of some sorts at least confirms the Church were vaguely right.

Ahhhh I get it, The thought didn't cross my mind.

It had me rather confused at first. I thought you were saying that having Arab hero in the crusades were controversial. ;) I was like 'isn't most the population Arabic':rolleyes:

Well, the game did state that in its universe Jesus and Moses were charlatans who never actually performed miracles. They used the Apple to create illusions.

Al Mualim: "That's all it's ever done, this Templar treasure, this Piece of Eden, this 'word of God'. Do you understand now? The Red Sea was never parted, water never turned to wine. It was not the machinations of Eris that spawned the Trojan War, but this! Illusions, all of them!"

The whole Eden stuff in itself is potentially controversial as well, though it wasn't really explained in-depth until AC2. In the AC universe all gods are explained to be nothing more than man-made stories and illusions. Eden wasn't a heavenly garden, it was a First Civ location where humans were bred to be slaves. If you look at it from a symbolic POV, the game appears to make a statement about religion/gods being something that enslaves our minds, and the only way for humans to be free and to realize what the world is really like is to break through this illusion. The Creed says "nothing is true, everything is permitted", meaning that there are no ultimate, God-given morals, no objective concepts of right and wrong. Literally everything is permitted because there is no divine being watching over us. So technically we could all go crazy and start murdering each other willy-nilly and there would be no divine punishment for it later.

This is what Edward misunderstands at first in AC4, he doesn't see what good comes from a creed that basically tells people they are free to do whatever they please. Ah Tabai explains to him that in addition to freedom, the Creed also advocates taking responsibility for your actions. Technically you're free to do whatever you want without fear that God will punish you for it later, but you will have to live with the consequences of your choices. Essentially the entire game is named after a Creed that advocates a secular way of life. That's why it's potentially controversial.

I didn't realise that was mentioned in AC1 about jesus and moses, what part was it?

..
..
Forget that.... I just found my brain under the couch. ;)


Aaaaand typically we get the "sjw forcing everything into everyting!" backlash from certains sections of the white male community who never believe they're being pandered to as well:

:rolleyes:



lol :D

And do turn the lights out when you leave, darling!

Hear hear!


This sounds like it could be cool if it's done right, but given that they're JUST NOW talking about it right before the game launches makes it smell like a ploy to generate buzz about the game. And strictly speaking, this isn't the first trans character in the series, there was also the Chevalier d'Eon in the Paris Stories (who, granted, wasn't much of a character, just a generic cutout to say "look how diverse this game is").

I think it's critical that they don't make this new character too "open" or accepted by society, otherwise he just becomes an insincere token character. Like someone (VestigialLlama?) said earlier in this thread, the Victorian era was one of the most sexually-repressed times in modern Western history, so to have a character walking around broadcasting the fact that they're transgender would be stupid inauthentic diversity (hell, trans people are still one of the least accepted minorities in the first world today). I think it would be a nice touch if he was only "open" to Evie, the more intellectual and forward-thinking twin, and not to Jacob, the street thug.

I agree, It would be even better if the Assassins were unaccepting, at least at first.
I'm sick of some assassins being too good ;) Its unrealistic, If there were bad Templars, there should be bad assassins!;) Bellec and Al Mualim don't count.....
ok they do :rolleyes:
But more please UBI!


Um, why were my links removed?

What are these links you speak of?

LieutenantRex
09-27-2015, 06:15 PM
I for one am quite happy that the LGBTQ community is now getting proper representation in the Assassin's Creed series. This is a step in the right direction. Of course the game will probably be a disappointment. It's a tad sad that I'm no longer enthusiastic about the games after such dampers in the releases. Maybe this new character will help me identity more with the game.

GunnarGunderson
09-27-2015, 06:48 PM
Why though? It's 1868, no such thing as HRT or reassignment surgery. Why not add a character like that to the present day story where it won't take a giant dump on the historical accuracy?

VestigialLlama4
09-27-2015, 06:49 PM
Why though? It's 1868, no such thing as HRT or reassignment surgery. Why not add a character like that to the present day story where it won't take a giant dump on the historical accuracy?

You still had men identifying and dressing up as women in that time.

GunnarGunderson
09-27-2015, 06:51 PM
You still had men identifying and dressing up as women in that time. Well there was the guy in Unity who did that. Why is it such a big deal this time?

VestigialLlama4
09-27-2015, 07:12 PM
Well there was the guy in Unity who did that. Why is it such a big deal this time?

That person in Unity is a throwaway NPC in a side missions without a unique NPC model and voice. Presumably this will be different, hmm?

GunnarGunderson
09-27-2015, 08:21 PM
That person in Unity is a throwaway NPC in a side missions without a unique NPC model and voice. Presumably this will be different, hmm? I thought this one in Syndicate was also just a throwaway NPC who gave out sidequests? Honestly, I bet he was meant to be a man for most of he development period until someone said "We need a token trans character, let's say that guy over there was born a woman" It's shameless tokenism no matter how you slice it and I can't believe anyone is actually buying it instead of calling Ubisoft out. Using them as an advertising gimmick and inflating their importance in the game is more trans-phobic than simply not including them, and if I was transgendered I'm sure I'd just find it patronizing.

That's it from me

VestigialLlama4
09-27-2015, 08:36 PM
It's shameless tokenism no matter how you slice it and I can't believe anyone is actually buying it instead of calling Ubisoft out.

Generally, it's better for the final product to come out and then call it out rather than react about a tiny advertisement in a gaming magazine.


...and if I was transgendered I'm sure I'd just find it patronizing.

Well you are not transgendered right, so why have an opinion then? Let the transgenered community complain about it.

SixKeys
09-28-2015, 02:20 AM
FYI: most trans people dislike the term "transgendered". They prefer trans man/woman.

http://time.com/3630965/transgender-transgendered/

strigoi1958
09-28-2015, 03:31 AM
It can be man, woman, straight, gay, bi, trans, whatever, what matters is if the person is interesting or not. I like interesting people and characters, their personal choices don't really matter.

This...

If people are bothered by it they shouldn't be playing games, or reading a newspaper, watching TV's (no pun intended) using the internet or even looking outside... it's not the first time in a game by a long way so it's not important... if it is true then well done Ubi

Anykeyer
09-28-2015, 08:13 AM
What a load of bullcrap. Ubi is trying to turn the matter into a freak show.


I thought this one in Syndicate was also just a throwaway NPC who gave out sidequests? Honestly, I bet he was meant to be a man for most of he development period until someone said "We need a token trans character, let's say that guy over there was born a woman" It's shameless tokenism no matter how you slice it and I can't believe anyone is actually buying it instead of calling Ubisoft out. Using them as an advertising gimmick and inflating their importance in the game is more trans-phobic than simply not including them, and if I was transgendered I'm sure I'd just find it patronizing.

That's it from me
exactly

Shahkulu101
09-28-2015, 09:12 AM
So when can a trans character be included and it not be 'shameless tokenism', hmm?

You lot would make the same claim no matter what. And how exactly is Ubi confounding matters in any way? It was Eurogamer who reported on it. And yes, it should be news, because there is a distinct lack of trans men and women in AAA video games, and certain gamers may wish to be informed as they're interested in trans people being represented - for whatever reason. Once it becomes normal for trans characters to be included in games, and not something that stands out (like it is with film and TV), then it won't be newsworthy.

Anykeyer
09-28-2015, 09:49 AM
So when can a trans character be included and it not be 'shameless tokenism', hmm?
When its not so conviniently advertised before release.


You lot would make the same claim no matter what. And how exactly is Ubi confounding matters in any way? It was Eurogamer who reported on it. And yes, it should be news, because there is a distinct lack of trans men and women in AAA video games, and certain gamers may wish to be informed as they're interested in trans people being represented - for whatever reason. Once it becomes normal for trans characters to be included in games, and not something that stands out (like it is with film and TV), then it won't be newsworthy.
Yea, eurogamer just suddenly knows about this somehow. And makes a lot of noise about this. Without Ubisofts approval.
I imagine it will be a new thing soon. "Come, our game has trans, play and see for youself." This is exactly what freak show is. And its disgusting.

Farlander1991
09-28-2015, 10:31 AM
Yea, eurogamer just suddenly knows about this somehow.

The character is introduced in sequence 3 which whole press had access to. The new opening statement was visible to everybody as well.

So, yeah, Eurogamer suddenly knows about this, as does everyone else who had access to the game.

EmptyCrustacean
09-28-2015, 11:26 AM
Well you are not transgendered right, so why have an opinion then? Let the transgenered community complain about it.

Thank you. All these people complaining on behalf of the trans community or Ubisoft are making me laugh since neither of the two groups seem to care. In fact, it wasn't an issue until these people started mouthing off. The whole "it's patronising to trans!", "it's stifling Ubi's creativity to be pc!" is a complete cop out to mask the fact that they're simply not comfortable with diversity in their games. It's so disingenuous.

SixKeys
09-28-2015, 12:04 PM
When its not so conviniently advertised before release.


Yea, eurogamer just suddenly knows about this somehow. And makes a lot of noise about this. Without Ubisofts approval.
I imagine it will be a new thing soon. "Come, our game has trans, play and see for youself." This is exactly what freak show is. And its disgusting.

So trans people are freaks now?

Anykeyer
09-28-2015, 02:13 PM
Yes.
Not for me, but from what I see they are for Ubisoft.


The character is introduced in sequence 3 which whole press had access to. The new opening statement was visible to everybody as well.

So, yeah, Eurogamer suddenly knows about this, as does everyone else who had access to the game.

They still need Ubisoft to permit this information leak before release. They cant just go and publish anything they want.
Also this title change looks like a desperate attention grabbing. What about different races, ages, ppl with disabilities? New title doesnt seem too inclusive to me.
AFAIK the reason why AC even had that title disclaimer is its controversal view on religion. And it wouldnt be AC w/o TWCB.
They never cared about including everyone, like "ppl with different opinions about murdering guards simply doing their jobs". Nope. Tell me why do they suddenly care enough about trans if its not for show?


Thank you. All these people complaining on behalf of the trans community
LOL. You see, I dont care about "trans community" and dont act on behalf of anyone, and I dont care what they think about this. Im stating my own opinion.

tH3PatRi0Tx1776
09-28-2015, 05:25 PM
You do realize AC has always been a liberal series? Well, except for Unity maybe.

I've always seen it as a Classical Liberal series, not so much a modern liberal/progressive series. The Assassin's seem to me to be very classicaly liberal. I myself am a classical liberal, not a modern liberal or progressive. The Assassin's fight for freedom fits more in line with classical liberalism/modern conservatism, than it does with modern liberalism/progressivism. Whereas the Templar's are very progressive in their tactics and beliefs, control over humanity and thinking that they know better and that we as people can't take care of ourselves. They push for big governments and giving up control over our lives for the "greater good". Well, at least that's how I see it.

I could care less of a character's sexual orientation or gender identity, just as long as they don't sacrifice the story and don't flesh them out as characters.

SixKeys
09-28-2015, 06:56 PM
I've always seen it as a Classical Liberal series, not so much a modern liberal/progressive series. The Assassin's seem to me to be very classicaly liberal. I myself am a classical liberal, not a modern liberal or progressive. The Assassin's fight for freedom fits more in line with classical liberalism/modern conservatism, than it does with modern liberalism/progressivism. Whereas the Templar's are very progressive in their tactics and beliefs, control over humanity and thinking that they know better and that we as people can't take care of ourselves. They push for big governments and giving up control over our lives for the "greater good". Well, at least that's how I see it.

Not sure what kind of labels you're working with, but if you look at the glyphs in AC2 and ACB, it's abundantly clear which side the writers fall on the conservative vs. liberal divide. The lore says that the Bush administration was controlled by Templars and that many of the conservative US supreme court judges who are still in power are Templars as well. Capitalism is a Templar invention, according to the games. Henry Ford, Thomas Edison and Harvey Firestone, all capitalists, were Templars who conspired against (among others) Nikola Tesla who wanted information to be free for everyone. The more liberal-minded Lenin was an assassin ally while conservative Stalin was a Templar agent. Margaret Thatcher was a Templar puppet. And so on.

Farlander1991
09-28-2015, 07:13 PM
They still need Ubisoft to permit this information leak before release. They cant just go and publish anything they want.

In fact they can. YouTubers and publications can show and talk about whatever they want from Sequences 3 and 7 that they've played. The restrictions put by Ubi (according to some YouTubers) are to not show stuff like World War I, or put a big focus on menus and database - i.e. stuff not related directly to the sequences or the open-world gameplay of 1868 London.

Hans684
09-28-2015, 08:18 PM
Whereas the Templar's are very progressive in their tactics and beliefs, control over humanity and thinking that they know better and that we as people can't take care of ourselves. They push for big governments and giving up control over our lives for the "greater good".

Depends on the Templar, there are different ways to control.

EmptyCrustacean
09-28-2015, 08:44 PM
This video sums up my thoughts exactly:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kggLV2fFoME

tH3PatRi0Tx1776
09-28-2015, 10:57 PM
Not sure what kind of labels you're working with, but if you look at the glyphs in AC2 and ACB, it's abundantly clear which side the writers fall on the conservative vs. liberal divide. The lore says that the Bush administration was controlled by Templars and that many of the conservative US supreme court judges who are still in power are Templars as well. Capitalism is a Templar invention, according to the games. Henry Ford, Thomas Edison and Harvey Firestone, all capitalists, were Templars who conspired against (among others) Nikola Tesla who wanted information to be free for everyone. The more liberal-minded Lenin was an assassin ally while conservative Stalin was a Templar agent. Margaret Thatcher was a Templar puppet. And so on.

Well, the game said Bush was a Templar puppet, but Bush was no conservative, he was a republican, which doesn't necessarily make him conservative. There are a ton of liberal republicans, like Bush, who was a neo-con. I don't recall the game ever saying that Capatitalism was a Templar invention. Nikola Tesla was also a Capatitalist. Both Lenin and Stalin were communists aka progressives aka liberals. Political terms don't always mean what the words mean. Margaret Thatcher was not a Templar puppet, but she was manipulated to help end communism, there's a difference.

As for the labels per their modern meanings.

Liberal = progressive = big government/more government control and regulation

Conservative = classical liberal = small government/less government control and regulation and more freedom

TO_M
09-28-2015, 11:09 PM
Well, the game said Bush was a Templar puppet, but Bush was no conservative, he was a republican, which doesn't necessarily make him conservative. There are a ton of liberal republicans, like Bush, who was a neo-con. I don't recall the game ever saying that Capatitalism was a Templar invention. Nikola Tesla was also a Capatitalist. Both Lenin and Stalin were communists aka progressives aka liberals. Political terms don't always mean what the words mean. Margaret Thatcher was not a Templar puppet, but she was manipulated to help end communism, there's a difference.

As for the labels per their modern meanings.

Liberal = progressive = big government/more government control and regulation

Conservative = classical liberal = small government/less government control and regulation and more freedom

One of the AC2 glyph vidoes explicitly states that the templars invented capitalism.

During a templar conversation some guy (forgot his name) says: "We invented capitalism to blabla".

VestigialLlama4
09-29-2015, 06:12 AM
Well, the game said Bush was a Templar puppet, but Bush was no conservative, he was a republican, which doesn't necessarily make him conservative. There are a ton of liberal republicans, like Bush, who was a neo-con. I don't recall the game ever saying that Capatitalism was a Templar invention. Nikola Tesla was also a Capatitalist. Both Lenin and Stalin were communists aka progressives aka liberals. Political terms don't always mean what the words mean. Margaret Thatcher was not a Templar puppet, but she was manipulated to help end communism, there's a difference.

As for the labels per their modern meanings.

Liberal = progressive = big government/more government control and regulation

Conservative = classical liberal = small government/less government control and regulation and more freedom

I don't think that kind of high level political science can properly apply to AC. Not successfully at any rate. There's none of that complexity in the games, you know the Democrat who's more Republican than the Republicans and vice versa. I mean Clint Eastwood is a Republican but he also criticized the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and he's been pro-gay rights for years and years.

What you see in the games are organizations that have this perfect consistency, who don't change or adapt well to new situations. That's not true to history to any ideology, any religion, any organization or party. That's fine, they aren't really organizations, they are metaphors. You aren't supposed to really take the Assassins and Templars too seriously at the end of the day.

It is true however that the Assassins for all their talk of liberty tend to be quite chatty with Kings and other monarchs. Altair and Richard the Lionheart high-fived each other essentially. Ezio was friends with Lorenzo de'Medici and Caterina Sforza and later with Prince Suleiman of the Sublime Port. In Unity, the backstory says that the Assassins helped King Philip IV to purge the Templars and drive them underground and in the game the Assassins are royalists and essentially Bonapartists. Connor is kind of an aversion there as is Edward. I would say the New World/American Assassins who side with the oppressed, the minorities, and have a multi-franchise and multi-ethnic community are the most liberal, while the European based Assassins are pretty tame.

Shahkulu101
09-29-2015, 08:27 AM
Only look at the homestead to see that Connor is a hardcore libertarian.

VestigialLlama4
09-29-2015, 09:17 AM
Only look at the homestead to see that Connor is a hardcore libertarian.

The Homestead is essentially a commune, syndicalist. People come there and set up shop, don't have to pay rent but merely trade goods at a discount to fellow locals and generate economy, then from there they jointly trade goods to different cities across land and sea. Everyone is their own Boss and they mutually aid each other. It's essentially a community of small shopowners and artisans. Of course what the Homestead actually represents is nothing more than the American Dream, people fleeing their former lives coming to a land for the pursuit of happiness, as Achilles says at the end, a model for what American could become. The cool thing about the Homestead is that it's not really tied to the Assassin-Templar conflict, it's there because Connor is a helpful guy.

Ezio by contrast is the Renaissance Patron. The banker's son who uses his knowledge of book-keeping and investment to develop property and values. He's your basic Bruce Wayne, benevolent capitalist, doing the Borgia's job in essence but better than them. Edward Kenway is technically the lumpenproletariat, he's framed in a Robin Hood way, robbing from the rich and giving to the poor. The rich being these slave-owning colonialst empires, and the poor being himself and his crew. The French Assassins in Unity are essentially a confused bunch of wishy-washy types mostly interested in protecting the property and lives of the rich rather than helping the poor, you could compare them to Reagan Democrats.

Mr_Shade
09-29-2015, 12:48 PM
Just a friendly reminder - please remember to be civil in the thread, since this topic can become heated ;)

GunnarGunderson
09-29-2015, 05:52 PM
In fact they can. YouTubers and publications can show and talk about whatever they want from Sequences 3 and 7 that they've played. The restrictions put by Ubi (according to some YouTubers) are to not show stuff like World War I, or put a big focus on menus and database - i.e. stuff not related directly to the sequences or the open-world gameplay of 1868 London.

So wait a minute, has this actually been confirmed by Ubisoft? It could easily just be a case of some "journalist" trying to boost their traffic by having this "exclusive info" (made up bull****).

Farlander1991
09-29-2015, 07:08 PM
So wait a minute, has this actually been confirmed by Ubisoft? It could easily just be a case of some "journalist" trying to boost their traffic by having this "exclusive info" (made up bull****).

And why would they do that?

That character was introduced in Sequence 3, there's a video somewhere in the preview thread, Eurogamer's just the only people who decided to make that a topic of their article (or the first)

Jessigirl2013
09-29-2015, 07:33 PM
In fact they can. YouTubers and publications can show and talk about whatever they want from Sequences 3 and 7 that they've played. The restrictions put by Ubi (according to some YouTubers) are to not show stuff like World War I, or put a big focus on menus and database - i.e. stuff not related directly to the sequences or the open-world gameplay of 1868 London.
Ahhh so that's what ive been seeing...

darn ;) I didn't relise it from the actual game :rolleyes:
I'm really bad at this 'going dark' :rolleyes:

Time to lock myself away until Syndicates release. :rolleyes:

.
..
.
*gets intrigued by another thread
"well.... It might not have spoilers......."

GunnarGunderson
09-29-2015, 07:39 PM
And why would they do that?
Because they're video game journalists

Hans684
09-29-2015, 08:11 PM
Because they're video game journalists

And work for illuminati.

Jessigirl2013
09-29-2015, 08:52 PM
Because they're video game journalists

Nah... They honest citizens.:rolleyes:

And work for illuminati.
BINGO!