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View Full Version : Ultra Uber Russian Manuvers ???



XyZspineZyX
06-29-2003, 01:20 AM
Just curiouse if anyone has seen the Ultra Uber new manuvers that Russian AC can do I named it.......

The Inverted Split S Hammer the stick foward then Rollit around wildly Like Im Waxing my car manuver over & over & over

I rember if some smart arse would try that In Il2 his ac would probly drop out of the sky real quick

This manuvering is totaly unrealistic & I sure hope it changes after the patch

anyone else see this manuver ???



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XyZspineZyX
06-29-2003, 01:20 AM
Just curiouse if anyone has seen the Ultra Uber new manuvers that Russian AC can do I named it.......

The Inverted Split S Hammer the stick foward then Rollit around wildly Like Im Waxing my car manuver over & over & over

I rember if some smart arse would try that In Il2 his ac would probly drop out of the sky real quick

This manuvering is totaly unrealistic & I sure hope it changes after the patch

anyone else see this manuver ???



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<Center><div style="width:700;colorhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gifurple;font-size:14pt;filter:shadow Blur[color=black,strength=11)"><Center>
I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold
I am alive forevermore.
I am the Alpha and the Omega
the Begining and the End.</div> <center>

<center><FONT COLOR="white">ӚFJ M œ R D ˜ ӡ[/i]</FONT>

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<Center><div style="width:700;colorhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gifurple;font-size:14pt;filter:shadow Blur[color=black,strength=11)"><Center>
I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold
I am alive forevermore.
I am the Alpha and the Omega
the Begining and the End.</div> <center>

<center><FONT COLOR="white">ӚFJ M œ R D ˜ ӡ[/i]</FONT>

XyZspineZyX
06-29-2003, 01:44 AM
rgr thats why we need fuselage overstressing no bat turning or wild joystick manevers no plane of wwii could have handled they would have got shredded apart

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Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
06-29-2003, 06:25 AM
aggree !

also even you got your target in your gunsight at 0.30 the AC begin a bottle roll; they always see you !

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XyZspineZyX
06-29-2003, 07:28 AM
You can do that in any plane, not just Russian.

Then on the second day, it was made bug free, and He saw that it was good.

XyZspineZyX
06-29-2003, 08:52 AM
the AI in FB is totally unrealistic, when you are at their six, they always manuver like crazy bi*ches, they never care about fuselage stress, black or red out, etc.

in those real gun cam, i notice that most of targets remain clam and stable when attacked or even taking hit, not like those mad in FB.

XyZspineZyX
06-29-2003, 09:02 AM
StG77_Fennec wrote:
- You can do that in any plane, not just Russian.
-
- Then on the second day, it was made bug free, and
- He saw that it was good.


Sure !



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XyZspineZyX
06-29-2003, 10:09 AM
AI did get imho a bit too good boost, it performs some really out of this world stuff.

Airframe overstressing is indeed too important feature not to implement, it would finally separate good pilots from stick yanking crazyes who dont have any idea of flying.

XyZspineZyX
06-29-2003, 03:12 PM
Thank Heavans Im not alone on this... Thought i was gona get Flamed for sure /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

It is Rather frustrating indead I agree that all ac can do it but Russian ac is much more worse in this department when I fight Against German Most of them try to Sizzor Or Stall me for an overshoot or just run like heck with there speed These are real Tactics & make the Sim much fun to fly

But sad to say the same cannot be said for the Bat Mobiles
Dont get me wrong there is many great Russian fighters here that Preform Legitimate manuvers to shake there six cleen or evade B&Z but many are using this Bat manuvering wich is Totaly Unrealistic & very frustrating Indead

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I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold
I am alive forevermore.
I am the Alpha and the Omega
the Begining and the End.</div> <center>

<center><FONT COLOR="white">ӚFJ M œ R D ˜ ӡ[/i]</FONT>

XyZspineZyX
06-29-2003, 03:55 PM
I'm not so sure,low wingloaded planes like yaks and zeros are fully capable of crazy looking manuvers in their speed envelope.There are many pilot accounts from the Pacific war describing what the U.S. pilots thought were insane aerobatic manuevers by Zero pilots.But with 6 .50's and the Zero being a flying gasoline can those manuevers werent very effective,and team tactics too of course.

XyZspineZyX
06-29-2003, 04:07 PM
Some of these fighters were true aerobatic machines. Yak3, Ki43, and some biplanes. You would have to use BnZ in Zero against well flown Ki43 and you still won't get a kill. The small size and light weight is what these aerobatic aircraft take advantage of.

XyZspineZyX
06-29-2003, 07:55 PM
If not realistic airframe stress we certainly need the black/redout implemented for the ai.

"Do unto others before they do unto you"

XyZspineZyX
06-29-2003, 09:28 PM
Yes, I've seen the maneuver (all the time) but it is not limited to VVS planes. It is most problematic in VVS planes since they are the most maneuverable. The big problem with the maneuvers is that they are impossible for humans to do and probably impossible for many planes because of the high negative G aspect. They would be shooting blood out their eyes like Horned Toads while at the same time their wings popped off.

Really like your name for the maneuver.

XyZspineZyX
06-29-2003, 09:31 PM
Those crazy negative G barrel rolls are probably no more than -4 or -5 Gs, well within load limits of the airframe. The airframe wouldn't disintigrate just because of that.

Of course a person would not do it in real life, because it would be very painful, but that is another matter.

Then on the second day, it was made bug free, and He saw that it was good.

XyZspineZyX
06-29-2003, 09:41 PM
I'm not an aerospace/mechanical engineer but I don't think most airframes of the time could survive -4 or -5 G's. If you have some data to the contrary, please post it so that I can learn more. The airframe was designed for the load to be placed in the opposite direction. To give a simple real world example of what happens when loads are reversed all you have to do is look at a Coke can. It will contain quite a bit of pressure inside, but if you pull a slight vacuum inside it collapses almost immediately. I doubt most bridges would survive high loadings it they were turned upside down and traffic ran along the backside. It's been a long time since I took Statics though...


StG77_Fennec wrote:
- Those crazy negative G barrel rolls are probably no
- more than -4 or -5 Gs, well within load limits of
- the airframe. The airframe wouldn't disintigrate
- just because of that.
-
- Of course a person would not do it in real life,
- because it would be very painful, but that is
- another matter.

XyZspineZyX
06-29-2003, 10:33 PM
I can't find any data on WWII planes, but data for modern civi planes is easy to find.

I figure if the wing on your average single engine plane will collapse at -3.5G (for example, J400 http://www.jabiru.net.au/aircraft/J400in.html) then its not unrealistic to believe that an average, generic WWII fighter (especially a light, aerobatic one like a Yak or something) could do roughly double that with no problem. Thats just a guess though.

Note also that there is a big big difference between maximum allowed load factor and maximum structural load factor. The quoted maximum allowable load is always at least 50-100% less than maximum structural load (ie, when the wing actually breaks).

Then on the second day, it was made bug free, and He saw that it was good.

Message Edited on 06/29/0303:35PM by StG77_Fennec

XyZspineZyX
06-29-2003, 10:46 PM
I tested the P-47 in a diving outside spiral, and at all speed ranges, the maximum negative load I could get was about 4.1-4.2G. Thats will full nose down trim.

The max positive load I got in a diving spiral was about 11G, also with full trim. Of course, you'd be blacked out, so it wouldn't matter.





Then on the second day, it was made bug free, and He saw that it was good.

Message Edited on 06/29/0303:49PM by StG77_Fennec

XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 03:58 PM
In another thread (think was Leadspitter's one) some smart guy said he couldn't pull more than 5G + in a Jug, lol. In a dive it will reach 12G (or was 11 the maximum on the gauge?) very easily, and then there's so much room to pull the stick all the was back while having full down trim /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif . Someone calculated these things some months ago, and he came out with Gs in the 20+ range @700km/h IAS when using trim. He made a 90? dive and pulled up, then he checked the altitide difference between the pull-start and beeing in level position. With that radius he could calculate the Gs. And the P-47 in FB doesn't fly 700, it's 900-1000 /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif . So critical Gs are no problem to reach.
In Warbirds for example you can break off your wings by pulling hard & quickly in a Spit @450mph. No problem. Or the Zeroes... or 262 /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif . Other planes were tougher, like the FW or P-47. There was no bat turn by trim AFAIK, so it was really hard to rip their wings off by pulling Gs (especially the high-speed stalling FW /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif ). Furthermore there was an ugly scraping sound when one reached the critical Gs.


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XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 04:55 PM
Try this one, I was chasing an I-16 with my 190, I was right on top of him when he banks slightly & i lose sight of him, The next thing i know he's passing right in front of me going in the opposite direction, When i tried to turn to follow i blacked out, I watched the replay & saw the I-16 do a maneuver that i can only describe as a complete pivot in mid-air, It was as if the I-16 was a helicopter & was turning with a tail rotor, This is an unfair advantage for the AI.

"An attack against a unit of Flying Fortresses was something like controlled suicide...Sometimes 50, Sometimes 80 machine guns were firing at you... You attempted to close your eyes & continue to fire, Frightened to death, Frightened to death."

Oberst Johannes Steinhoff (176 kills)

XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 05:54 PM
LOL

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I am alive forevermore.
I am the Alpha and the Omega
the Begining and the End.</div> <center>

<center><FONT COLOR="white">ӚFJ M œ R D ˜ ӡ[/i]</FONT>

XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 08:16 PM
Hard to say with all the warping.

I cant tell if they are good manuveurs or warp.





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XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 10:55 PM
Acme70 wrote:
- Try this one, I was chasing an I-16 with my 190, I
- was right on top of him when he banks slightly & i
- lose sight of him, The next thing i know he's
- passing right in front of me going in the opposite
- direction, When i tried to turn to follow i blacked
- out, I watched the replay & saw the I-16 do a
- maneuver that i can only describe as a complete
- pivot in mid-air, It was as if the I-16 was a
- helicopter & was turning with a tail rotor, This is
- an unfair advantage for the AI.


HAHAHAHA.

You should be whining about how he got behind you magicly and shot you down. He should have busted your rear!

Thats rich.

Fly the I-16 before commenting. It is light and fast, and has some very nasty tricks up its sleeve. The 190 can't DREAM of doing I-16 tricks... its toooooo heavy.

'Bias projection' gets old. Try flying something other than your favorite plane before whining. Also take a look at the real-world circumstances that allowed "crap planes" to beat hot-rods. You'd be surprised at what you'd learn if you would study all the planes and thier history, rather than assuming a single history-channel episode contains the Holy Answer to All Things Air-Combat Related.

When you resolve to stop placing the blame of your failures on the game and/or your equipment, you'll find you were wrong all along.

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_____ | _____
_\__(o)__/_
./ \.
Whiners don't play vulchers
(er, winners)
</font>

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 02:50 AM
BaldieJr wrote:

- 'Bias projection' gets old. Try flying something
- other than your favorite plane before whining



Who said anything about the 190 being my favorite plane & i have flown the I-16, But i was never able to pull off the AI type moves without blacking out, Thats what i meant by an unfair advantage for the AI & just because i was flying the FW-190 does'nt make me a Luftwhiner, I happen to like the LA-5/LA-7 series myself.

"An attack against a unit of Flying Fortresses was something like controlled suicide...Sometimes 50, Sometimes 80 machine guns were firing at you... You attempted to close your eyes & continue to fire, Frightened to death, Frightened to death."

Oberst Johannes Steinhoff (176 kills)

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 02:59 AM
I agree with Acme. Baldie is out of line and wrong. The AI can pull some maneuvers that a human can't do. It can go to ridiculous angles of attack without stalling and the ace AI can use full deflection without stall from what I've seen (in cases where a human would immediately stall.) It is most noticeable on the really nimble planes. I also notice that the energy bleed doesn't go off scale when this happens as it should (part and parcel with a stall). I like flying the I-16 a lot, but the AI gets away with some crazy stuff. IL-2 was less prone to this than FB.

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 08:06 PM
I retract my statement. Obviously I can not read.

I somehow overlooked the mention of AI, and therefore made a arse of myself. My appologies.

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./ \.
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</font>

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 08:23 PM
BaldieJr wrote:
- Obviously I can not read.

While busting into threads sideways with only a minimal grasp of the topic at hand p!sses the crap out of me, I think it takes a big man to admit his mistakes. S!


A word of advice, do not fall prey to misconceptions like the Luftwhiner label. Sure there are whiny, uninformed, b!tching threads out there because some can't comprehend losing to a better pilot. However, not every pro-LW argument is a whine. Nor is every pro-VVS argument sarcastic. Some are quite justified.

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That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and have their
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XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 10:38 PM
Jetbuff wrote:
- BaldieJr wrote:
-- Obviously I can not read.
-
- While busting into threads sideways with only a
- minimal grasp of the topic at hand p!sses the crap
- out of me, I think it takes a big man to admit his
- mistakes. S!


I agree, salute to Baldie.