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BSS_Vidar
08-14-2004, 03:04 PM
The Physiology for aircrews are inconsistant in this game. This has nothing to do with G availability on any particular airframe. That's another story...

In short, no matter what your crate is, whether it's a 109, P-51, or a baby stroller. If you're going a particular speed, in a particular arch, everyone should experience tunnel vision/blackout at the same point and time in that turn. In real life the only things that can alter the resistance to G-forces on a pilot is:
- The effectiveness of G suits. (Not applicable in WWII aircraft in most cases).
- The sitting position of the pilot. (How much reclined).
- The pilots physical fitness.

As far as I know, all pilots are modeled the same physicaly and seated in the same position.

Many times I have whitnessed 109's, 190's, Yak's ect, ect.. pulling hard into a turn while I was at the same speed in a P-51 in the same arch. To hold the turn was almost instantainious tunnel vision and blackouts for me and fellow Pony drivers. I stopped trying to hold the same turn arch knowing what would happen so I starting initiating high Yo-Yo's to reduce G loads on my plane. These planes were able to sustain these turns while I still abtained tunnel vision and blackout (albeit for shorter periods) in the Yo-Yo to roll in behind the target. In the majority of these observations, the enemy pilot said he didn't tunnel or black out at all.

There is a hugh inconsistancy here, and ya know what. I don't expect it to be changed. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

BSS_Vidar

BSS_Vidar
08-14-2004, 03:04 PM
The Physiology for aircrews are inconsistant in this game. This has nothing to do with G availability on any particular airframe. That's another story...

In short, no matter what your crate is, whether it's a 109, P-51, or a baby stroller. If you're going a particular speed, in a particular arch, everyone should experience tunnel vision/blackout at the same point and time in that turn. In real life the only things that can alter the resistance to G-forces on a pilot is:
- The effectiveness of G suits. (Not applicable in WWII aircraft in most cases).
- The sitting position of the pilot. (How much reclined).
- The pilots physical fitness.

As far as I know, all pilots are modeled the same physicaly and seated in the same position.

Many times I have whitnessed 109's, 190's, Yak's ect, ect.. pulling hard into a turn while I was at the same speed in a P-51 in the same arch. To hold the turn was almost instantainious tunnel vision and blackouts for me and fellow Pony drivers. I stopped trying to hold the same turn arch knowing what would happen so I starting initiating high Yo-Yo's to reduce G loads on my plane. These planes were able to sustain these turns while I still abtained tunnel vision and blackout (albeit for shorter periods) in the Yo-Yo to roll in behind the target. In the majority of these observations, the enemy pilot said he didn't tunnel or black out at all.

There is a hugh inconsistancy here, and ya know what. I don't expect it to be changed. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

BSS_Vidar

Chuck_Older
08-14-2004, 03:25 PM
Simulating pilot fatigue is tough...CFS3 tried it, and I had points to spend on my skills. Oh, goody, I am playing EverQuest now...

Seriously though, I agree. Anti-G suits and the pilot's position *could* be modelled

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ivankuturkokoff
08-14-2004, 05:18 PM
Vidar as you say you are in the same arc, I assume you are at the same speed therfore you are pulling the same G.

I have performed many tests using all the UDP type tools working with Device link. These tests primarily to determine sustained turn performance and Ps data. In these tests Threshold G for Greyout and Blackout was also done. The results are the same for each aircraft (regardless of which nationality you select) in the game. The threshold for Greyout is around 6G (+-gnats fart) or so. So All pilots are considered equal, with the same Physiology.

It would also apperr that that G onset rate is also a factor in Greyout and Blackout. If you get the same G onset rate then Greyout/Blackout always ocurrs at the same G regardless of aircraft type.

Some aircraft in the game obviously have lighter stick force per g modelling. The P51 being one in particular. So in these aeroplanes the same stick input (as say in a higher stick force per G aeroplane) will result in higer G onset rate. If you keep the G onset rate the same (different stick input rate) you will find that the Greyout/Blackout) will ocurr at the same G.

You need to be running something like UDPSPD to have continous read out of G. Without a G readout (as I am sure you are aware) any assessment of Greyout/Blackout thresholds is subjective.

BSS_Vidar
08-14-2004, 05:47 PM
That is correct.
I am in the same arch and at the same speed in these observations.

I experience tunnel vision/blackout while the bogey ahead of me does not. I'm not gaining on the target or pulling inside his arch. Once established in the turn, control sensitivity should be a mute point. In a high Yo-Yo, I should have plenty of G left over for my pilot compared to the target, but that's not the case. If all pilot physiology and seating position is the same, I don't understand the big differences in-game.

BSS_Vidar

Tully__
08-15-2004, 12:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BSS_Vidar:
That is correct.
I am in the same arch and at the same speed in these observations.

I experience tunnel vision/blackout while the bogey ahead of me does not. I'm not gaining on the target or pulling inside his arch. Once established in the turn, control sensitivity should be a mute point. In a high Yo-Yo, I should have plenty of G left over for my pilot compared to the target, but that's not the case. If all pilot physiology and seating position is the same, I don't understand the big differences in-game.

BSS_Vidar<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you're following someone and he's in your sight (or nearly so) you're flying inside his arc. This means the trailing aircraft is flying a smaller radius/higher G.

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Flygflottilj16_Sulan
08-15-2004, 02:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BSS_Vidar:
...

I experience tunnel vision/blackout while the bogey ahead of me does not....

BSS_Vidar<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How do you know? I often evade being blacked-out in the process, ofcourse maybe you performed tests with a fellow pilot in a 109 or 190?

I don´t deny what your say though.

Also, Tully is right about if you have your sight over or nearly over target its a tighter arch.

Gravity never looses, the best you can hope for is a draw

BSS_Vidar
08-15-2004, 05:39 PM
I asked my oponent if he tunneled/ blacked out. He said "Not even close". We have flown with our own members that fly German planes, they don't black out in the same parameters.
As for understanding how to lead a target without going inside his arch... You're preachin' to the chior here. 20 year's of flying in the Navy. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
I know how to evaluate a bogey's rate-of-turn and energy state. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

BSS_Vidar

LEXX_Luthor
08-15-2004, 05:44 PM
BSS_Vidar:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I am in the same arch and at the same speed in these observations.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
We know neither your arch nor your target's arch, or you would have offered us equivalent circular radius for both ("sustained" instantaneous radius of curvature, basically). Its no coincidence you have Chosen P~51 here, as ivankut well explains...

ivankut:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Some aircraft in the game obviously have lighter stick force per g modelling. The P51 being one in particular. So in these aeroplanes the same stick input (as say in a higher stick force per G aeroplane) will result in higer G onset rate. If you keep the G onset rate the same (different stick input rate) you will find that the Greyout/Blackout) will ocurr at the same G.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
P~51 and Fw~190 Extreme elevator authority may be the keys here.



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LEXX_Luthor
08-15-2004, 05:49 PM
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BSS_Vidar:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I asked my oponent if he tunneled/ blacked out. He said "Not even close". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
"Not even close" we have seen before posted here for the exact same G argument and the exact same Question asked of the (supposed) opponent. This may be copy~n~pasting of very old materiel.

Just a bit of advice for the NAVY, if you were my internet opponent, I too would tell you Not Even Close...just because... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/icon_twisted.gif


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Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

BSS_Vidar
08-17-2004, 10:56 PM
Well,
Warclouds 2nite I tried an experiment. I was pretty much done for after gettin a kill with 3 bogeys on me. So I went into a hard pull and held and maintained on the edge of tunnel vision to see how the bogeys would get there deflection shot. This 190 barreled in at the speed of heat pulling inside my arch with a massive closure rate. I was tunneled out with just enough visability. He was able to get the shot off without blacking out pulling a turn WITHIN my radious.

I'm tellin' ya. Somethin' ain't right! 2,200 flight hours of carrier aviation experience is yelling that in my ear. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

*my last post on the subject.


BSS_Vidar

JaBo_HH--Gotcha
08-18-2004, 02:52 PM
Must say that often experience the opposite. me tryingto dodge in my fw190, blacking out almost immediately but the bogey keeping me in sight. But rest assured. The pilots seat of the 109s and 190s aren't modelled either...

I found however that when, instead of pulling constantly, you do it with sudden but short moves, you can trick it a bit, however you'd see tha plane having trails.

Also after a lot of flight hours you learn to ride the edge. For example a continues spiral downwards where i fly constantly with 380 on combat flaps near grey out and my opponent not realizing this accelarates. he gains but suddenly blacks out. depends on many factors...

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NonWonderDog
08-18-2004, 03:31 PM
I haven't played online enough to say anything about blackouts (although I've never noticed blackout differences between planes...), but the redout limit seems a bit...strange.

Now, I've never pulled extreme negative G maneuvers in any airplane, but I've done my share of hanging upside down from the monkeybars when I was 10. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/53.gif I got a bit of a headache a couple of times, but I don't remember ever having my vision go red at -1 G's. If you crash land and flip over in the sim, however, your vision starts to turn red almost immediately. What's going on? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

LEXX_Luthor
08-18-2004, 05:49 PM
You get red~out from pilot injury too. Combat causes injury I have noticed, and crash land and flipouts can cause injury perhaps.


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"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
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Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

NonWonderDog
08-18-2004, 06:20 PM
Yeah, and that's what I thought was happening, for a while. But then I realised that it only turned red after you stayed upside down a few seconds, it never showed a "Pilot: Wounded" message, and no matter how long you stayed upside down (after the initial 5 seconds or so), it would never get worse or kill you.

I use FB View Plus for the panning anyway, so I turned the "extended instruments" feature on. I then proceeded to put myself in a sustained 0G dive from high altitude, and you can imagine my surprise when my vision started to turn red after 10 seconds! Something is surely amiss...

Bull_dog_
08-18-2004, 07:23 PM
I'm pretty sure all the aircraft are supposed to be the same, but it doesn't mean there isn't some kind of bug....I'm pretty sure the Mustang's wings fall off before 15G's (I'm never blacked out!)...I'm pretty sure my Lightning still has fire extinguishers....I'm pretty sure I get compressibility when I start my dive at 12,000ft., we did have ammo count problems etc...

If there was a way to compare and provide some evidence, there could be a bug behind it.

The aircraft which I most suspect is messed up on g forces is the Mig...try flying the mig 3u and pull out of a dive at 600 km/hr...stick is real heavy but you still black out. I'm with the original poster...I'm thinking that not all aircraft are the same...supposed to be, yes, but not in actuality.

Personally, I'd like to see G-forces as an option to be modelled...accumulated G's over a short period of time would reduce control effectiveness....end of that endless jinking! Negative G's were the worst on plane and pilot

NonWonderDog
08-18-2004, 08:18 PM
I played around with the P51 with the accellerometer turned on, and the wings come off at 12-13G's, just like they should. The extra 3G cusion that we all though we had doesn't exist, the wings come off at the oft-quoted max structural G-force allowance. It's also VERY easy to pull extreme G-forces in that plane, much more so than in the (few) others I tested. Blackout DOES NOT happen instantaneously at ANY attainable G-force (which seems correct in my book), but even extremely brief blips to 12G's can cause structural failure (which also seems correct).

Blackout seems about right -- pulling 5G's and sustaining it for a bit makes you black out in any plane I tested -- but the redout limit seems really kooky. Anything less than 0.5G's or thereabouts will turn your vision red as long as you sustain it for 10 seconds.

Serious redout only starts when you start to sustain -2G's or pull -3G's momentarily (very difficult in most planes besides the P51...), so that seems about right, but what's up with the red mist you get at 0.5G's?

lbhskier37
08-18-2004, 09:40 PM
NonWonderDog, what do you mean with the accelerometer turned on? How are you calculating this. If this is accurate you really need to post this finding in GD because I am really getting sick of the whining about the P51s wings coming off.

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ivankuturkokoff
08-18-2004, 11:57 PM
Vidar I have similar Real Life experience to you (including in the same jet), I have 3 years dedicated FB testing as well. As I stated in previous posts, If the G onset rate is the same, regardless of aircraft type Blackout ocurrs at the same G. That G is very close to 6.

Do some accurate flight testing with some UDP tools running and you will be convinced. I defy anyone to estimate the other guys G in a fight in FB with any degree of certainty. Pitch rate and energy states yes but G no way !

VFA-195 Snacky
08-19-2004, 04:08 AM
I have been in lag pursuits and blacked out while the target continued without a hint of greying out. It's fustrating, but at this point probably not much is going to be done about it. I worry more about my wings snapping off than blacking out these days.lol

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BSS_Vidar
08-19-2004, 08:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Blackout DOES NOT happen instantaneously at ANY attainable G-force (which seems correct in my book)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just had to respond on this one. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I'm living proof that that is an incorrect statement. I had to jettison my jet back in 1989 while I was flying for the Navy. I didn't snap out of the "Instantanious G" I sustained when the egress catapult system fired and rocket motor ingnited till I was almost in the ocean.
In the Hornet I experienced 6-7 G pop-ups during 30 deg offset bombing runs had me blacked out visually, but still conscious "Instantaniously". Visual recovery was quick though.

I didn't even want to go into the wing snap deal. Thats a different story all together. But I can tell you this folks. If you have loaded enough G's on the airframe to snap a wing off, the pilot shouldn't even be aware it happened until he recovered from blackout - that's IF he had enough altitude and time to recover. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

Some things aren't modeled correctly, but FB is still the best we have. Let's hope the PF will be an improvement on Lessons Learned.

BSS_Vidar

NonWonderDog
08-19-2004, 10:19 AM
Really? 6G's can cause you to black out in a instant? With a G-suit, too? I didn't know that, thanks. That would be incredibly annoying in the sim, though...it seems like the lightest touch on the P51 controls at high speed can generate 5-7G's.

In the sim it seems like there's a G counter that tends towards 0 at some rate. It takes some number on the counter in order for you to start to black out, so a 5G maneuver will make you start to black out after 3 seconds, a 10G maneuver after 1-1.5 seconds, etc. This means that it's possible to pull 13G's and snap your wings off without blacking out, as long as you do it very quickly. As to whether or not that's correct behavior, I don't know.

I'm testing this with FB View Plus (I found it on one forum or another, maybe this one. It's made by a Chinese guy, I/JG54_XPC, that's all I know). It has an option to show an "extended instruments" panel (offline only) that includes an accellerometer. I'm not at all sure how correct the readings are, but level fight shows 1G and upside down shows -1G, so it's at least somewhat accurate. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

KSS_Shrike_UK
08-20-2004, 06:12 AM
sorry for lowerring the tone but....

American pilots eat too many beefburgers so should have worse G effects.
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BSS_Vidar
08-20-2004, 09:46 AM
A pair of Jet Jeans aka G suit only gives you a max of 1 G of additional tolorance - if that. The Air Force has a new suit that actually comes up to the pilots chest. And yes, if brought on you quickly enough 6 G's can black out or "Tunnel-out" your vision but not neccesarlily knock you out. You'll still be aware, but just can't see. Unloading the plane brings sight back pretty quickly.
A buddy of mine who is a Beta testor for IL-2 and LOMAC flew Hornets. His story about instantanious G Blackout is hair rasing, even to me. He was supersonic low over the desert in Nevada during a Red Flag Excersise when he saw an F-15 above him. As he was running and looking over his shoulder watching the Eagle, he snaped his head around just in time to see what was in front of him. A huge mountain seem to come out of nowhere. He yanked his stick back to avoid augering-in and "Instantanously" blacked out. He recovered after a few moments to find his Hornet spiriling in the pure virtical climb passing 10,000 ft MSL.
During my Naval career, I never completely black out to unconsciousness "in normal flight", (my ejection in '89 is a different issue) but I have been tunneled out on several occasions. That's just part of flying in those parameters.

The G modeling in IL-2 is good, just not consistant.

BSS_Vidar

TX-EcoDragon
08-23-2004, 12:20 AM
Shrike, you might not be surprised then that about 25% of the members of the northern California Aerobatic Club are Vegans! (myself included) ;-)

I am not really familiar with this instantaneous GILOC, The closest thing would be the so called push pull effect which occurs when the baro-receptors sense elevated blood pressure as a result of negative G's and then the body reacts by reducing cardiac output, and vasodilation, which lowers blood pressure significantly, and lasts for a short time, and as a result greatly lowers a pilots +G tolerance afterwords. In all my aerobatics time the only physiological G related nemesis that warrants concern is the push-pull effect, and the effects of sustained G loadings. As far as instantaneous G loadings goes, well. . .I have had an overzealous first time acro pilot yank 8 Gs for a loop that he hadn't told me he wanted to try (he got quite the reaming BTW) and as soon as the g's hit him he let go, neither of us had any visual effects of the G, I normally don't need any M-1/L-1 straining maneuvers in prep for a 4-5G pull (though some need to) and I of course hadn't done any prep in this case anyway as he wasn't suposed to be experimenting. I expected him to respect that he was out of his element coming from a non-aerobatic aviation backgorund, and I expected him to be smoothe given that he is an airline pilot.

I am not sure if you've flown in an extra, but the stick travel is very short, and the stick has almost no force in it at all. Also, there is no fly by wire limiting available G's. In an Extra 300 that is about as instant a laoding as you can get in any aircraft, short of impact accelerations. Given the ability of the body to withstand extreme G loadings that come on fast and cease fast, and the aircraft's relative lack of concern for the duration of the loading with regard to airframe damage the aircraft can be damaged even before a pilot realizes the G's that they are pulling. The Force of the G must act for a period of time sufficient to reduce blood flow to the brain and eyes and to exhaust the oxygen reserve that exists naturally. This oxygen reserve doesnt last long though. Given this most people can break even an aerobatic airplane without blacking out if they apply the force very rapidly and for a short duration, as the instantaneous loading is still harmful to the airframe if in excess of designed load limitations.

How long is the oxygen reserve in general?
According to the navy. . .


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WWMaxGunz
08-23-2004, 11:06 AM
Nice chart!

G's can knock someone out immediately if they 'hit' the same way a bang to the head
does, ie the brain impacts the skull causing a concussion. After all, a fist to the
head *can* be expressed purely in terms of instantaneous G's. So it's ==possible==
and in the case of the ejection seat it's IMHO a better explanation.


Neal

Ugly_Kid
08-23-2004, 12:57 PM
Human body can tolerate quite an amount of Gs the shorter the duration gets. You can search with word "Eiband Criteria" - I believe similar rules apply to consciousness as well.

As for P-51 pilot conspiracy, it takes about couple of minutes of testing with Devicelink and you'll notice that the pilot has a same blackout level as the one in Bf-109, for example. What is not the same is P-51 energy bleed, for example. In a tight curve P-51 will start gaining (rapidly) on Bf or FW, to avoid overshooting chaser typically tries to tighten up -&gt; more gee than the chased plane -&gt; blackout (the question is of course why an earth Bf-109 with generally much better thrust to weight looses more speed with less g http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif). If you have this problem pull the throttle back and set prop to low rpm, you will bleed to the curve and hit the same path without blacking out. This trick is good only if you get gun solution within next 1/2 turn, otherwise you'll end up in sustained low speed turning and you're deaddeaddead (in this case hi-yo-yo would have been much smarter).

Just as a hint that this theme is nothing new:

Oleg Maddox wrote:
"We give the best effience of elevator on High speed for P-51, but people say that we model incorrect G-loading.... But to think with the school physics experience that they are doing themselves greater loading just becasue of this effiency of elevator - they don't! "

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TX-EcoDragon
08-23-2004, 01:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NonWonderDog:
I played around with the P51 with the accellerometer turned on, and the wings come off at 12-13G's, just like they should. The extra 3G cusion that we all though we had doesn't exist, the wings come off at the oft-quoted max structural G-force allowance. It's also VERY easy to pull extreme G-forces in that plane, much more so than in the (few) others I tested. Blackout DOES NOT happen instantaneously at ANY attainable G-force (which seems correct in my book), but even extremely brief blips to 12G's can cause structural failure (which also seems correct).

Blackout seems about right -- pulling 5G's and sustaining it for a bit makes you black out in any plane I tested -- but the redout limit seems really kooky. Anything less than 0.5G's or thereabouts will turn your vision red as long as you sustain it for 10 seconds.

Serious redout only starts when you start to sustain -2G's or pull -3G's momentarily (very difficult in most planes besides the P51...), so that seems about right, but what's up with the red mist you get at 0.5G's?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is all spot on. . . and about the red out, it is overdone. It certainly is not a realistic implementation, in fact even at the higher G's the so called redout is more often and OWT than fact. Sure there can be burst capilaries in your eyes that might do it, but more often it is the lower eyelid lifting and partially obscuring the pupil. . . and I have never had nor met anyone with any actual experience of this phenomenon other than the bottom eyelid lifting, even amongst those who pull -6Gs everytime they fly. Having said all this the visual red-out in the sim does seem to be a more or less reasonable way to emulate the physical sensations that negative G impose, given that there is no other way to communicate the virtual pilot's experience.

I do feel that the sensation should not occur so quickly at such low G though.

Anyone who flew the Jane's Sims knows another entertaining artifact of G pulling is the slathering, huffing, and puffing and grunting done by the virtual pilot when you pulled Gs, you could also make your WISO or RIO puke in the back seat if you did lots of crazy stuff. . . you had to work for it with him though, unlike the tail gunner in IL-2s that freak out when you taxi over a gopher hole on the side of the runway.



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Northern California Aerobatic Club
http://www.iac38.org/

First Slot Pilot Aircraft #4 of the Virtual Haute-Voltige Team
http://www.vhvt.com/

Learn to fly, learn aerobatics, learn to fly a tailwheel at LVK.
http://www.attitudeaviation.com/

http://www.txsquadron.com/uploaded/TX-EcoDragon/ravenvert.jpg

ku101-Shrike
01-24-2005, 09:56 AM
awesome idea Eco, im gonna replace the voice of the IL2 tail gunner from "What the hell are you doing!" to more realistic puking sounds 8), maybe Oleg could put that in a patch

Blackdog5555
01-24-2005, 06:53 PM
Yes from what i understand in this game it accumulates g pulling so if you are doing a lot of yo-yo in the gray zone it wont take much to pull you into the Blackout zone. That if you are fresh you can do a high g sustained pull better than if you jinking prior to the pull. My question is that you stay blacked out for a long time prior to getting you sight back. frustrating when you are heading down ...waiting to regain consciense to aviod to lawn dart game. Is the duration of darkness/BO correct?

BfHeFwMe
01-25-2005, 12:33 PM
So what were the speeds at the end of the turn?

I'll wager the 109 was a good 150 to 200 Kph slower therefore turning as tight as the pony but under far less G. That's the price your going to pay by overloading it's drag model which requires massive horsepower to get near historical speeds.

These planes have been modified, tuned, reviewed, and nerfed so much, they've been pushed into fighting with a new style. Amazingly people still want to crying about it. If you take away any useable sustained turn and dive ability, the boys have to to figure out a new way to hunt and fly. You can cry about it or actually try to adopt some new tactics to counter it yourself.

Sturm_Williger
01-26-2005, 12:01 PM
Slightly OT, but I recall the pilot in Red Baron 2 ( or 3D ) also grunts and puffs.

Blackjack174
01-26-2005, 03:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BSS_Vidar:
That is correct.
I am in the same arch and at the same speed in these observations.

I experience tunnel vision/blackout while the bogey ahead of me does not. I'm not gaining on the target or pulling inside his arch. Once established in the turn, control sensitivity should be a mute point. In a high Yo-Yo, I should have plenty of G left over for my pilot compared to the target, but that's not the case. If all pilot physiology and seating position is the same, I don't understand the big differences in-game.

BSS_Vidar <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
actually you are NOT flying the same arc as the pilot in front of you , even if it seems like it!
you fly behind a plane that has committed this turn 100 or 200ms ago (ping dependent), so you have to pull harder to follow the plane on your screen than the other online pilot who committed it.
Thats the main reason initial movements seem so hard online, they are lagging slightly behind the other pilots "reality".
you start a turn and after 100-200ms it shows at other players, then they have to turn after you harder, becasue they allready missed(or reached) your starting location when you committed your turn, too late to follow your exact flightpath, and when they think they do, they actually fly into a much sharper initial turn , thous blacking out faster , or in your case blacking out on their own.
The faster both of the pilots go online , the more prominent the effect will be.

TX-EcoDragon
01-26-2005, 04:36 PM
There is also the issue of available G. . . as a 109 pilot I never black out. . .simply because my poor little pilot who hasn't been to the gym in years can't muster the pull required.

On the other hand my rough and tumble P-51 pilot yanks that stick around like he is in a link trainer. . . "you want 15G right now?? No Problemo!"

If a 109 blacks you out either you being too abrupt and yanking plenty, or he is trimming like mad. . . and your being too abrupt and yanking plenty.


I do agree with the overall point that the 51 has a very light elevator, and it *is* lighter than it should be which makes modulating the stick force to ride the edge of a blackout much harder in the 51 than it should be (this is also true in a few other AEP/PF planes as well).