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View Full Version : Me 109s & FW 190s still flying



GazzaMataz
05-24-2004, 09:04 AM
Just wondered cos everytime I went to Biggin Hill Air Show as a kid I never ever saw a Bf 109 or an FW 190. Spitfires, Hurricanes, Lancasters and all the Yank planes but no German ones. Last year I was astounded to see an La5.

What happened to them after the war did they all get destroyed, sold off are there any still air worthy?

Tickety boo...
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GazzaMataz
05-24-2004, 09:04 AM
Just wondered cos everytime I went to Biggin Hill Air Show as a kid I never ever saw a Bf 109 or an FW 190. Spitfires, Hurricanes, Lancasters and all the Yank planes but no German ones. Last year I was astounded to see an La5.

What happened to them after the war did they all get destroyed, sold off are there any still air worthy?

Tickety boo...
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Bewolf
05-24-2004, 09:10 AM
There are very few still airworthy 109s. Some of them in Germany, in the Messerschmidt Stiftung.
No flyable 190ies prevailed the war to my knowledge, though some new ones are contructed by Flugwerke GmbH based in Munich.

Bewolf

Never discuss with stupid people.
They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Vortex_uk
05-24-2004, 09:14 AM
It that Biggin Hill as in the south-east of england? If so,i never saw an La5 there last year http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

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GazzaMataz
05-24-2004, 09:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> It that Biggin Hill as in the south-east of england? If so,i never saw an La5 there last year <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes it is Biggin Hill SE England and er, I only been playing Ill-2 & FB for a few months so I might have mistaken it for a Yak. I wasn't actually at the Airshow I was watching it on the Sky aeroplane channel... it might have been from 2001 or 2002 when they had the nasty accidents http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

Tickety boo...
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Vortex_uk
05-24-2004, 09:30 AM
Lol,never saw a yak there ,either,must of been the year before,i wasn't there that year.Would of been nice to see it tho' http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

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LilHorse
05-24-2004, 09:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bewolf:
There are very few still airworthy 109s. Some of them in Germany, in the Messerschmidt Stiftung.
No flyable 190ies prevailed the war to my knowledge, though some new ones are contructed by Flugwerke GmbH based in Munich.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe some flyable examples did survive the war in the hands of the Allies but were later allowed to fall into disrepair or scrapped. There are a few flyable 109s out there (even an Emil from the BoB!) but not nearly as many as American or British planes. The good news is that occasionally one shows up here or there (like one found in a salvage yard in India, another Emil) that can be restored. As for the 190s, while you may not see any examples from the war there is an outfit in Germany that is building them pretty much to spec. So maybe in later airshows you'll see more examples of German fighters.

Huckebein_UK
05-24-2004, 09:49 AM
For '190s and '109s you'll have to wait for the FlugWerke examples to make their way to England (they're building some '109s after they finish these '190s, and some Ar 96s as well I think...).

As for your Lavochkin, there's an La-9 buzzing around Britain this year - flew over my house a couple of months back - but it could also have been a Yak 52 or something. I'm not aware of an La-5s in the air...?

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JorBR
05-24-2004, 09:52 AM
I´ve always been surprised by the fact so many important planes were discarded after the war.
There is only 2 or so flyables Liberators, no flyable Sturmovik, AFAIK no flyable original 190, one or so flyable Zeros. No to speak about B-29s.

Black 6 (the last original flyable 109 I guess) was permanently grounded at Hendon, because it is to precious to risk another flight accident. I´ve heard elsewhere that the techonology to build DB engines are gone.

Sad http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif .

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Cragger
05-24-2004, 09:58 AM
There is a B-29 being restored to flight worthy by the men and women volunteering time and money that built/maintained/ and flew them as they are the only ones that have the knowledge and know how of how the Super Fort was built.

We almost had a B-29 that had landed in the artic circle but she caught fire after being brought to flight worthy condidtion and was destroyed. The auxillary power generator in the rear caught on fire, it was a sad sight to see the work of those men burn up.

My Grandfather was the crew chief for a B-24 squadron in the Phillipenes in WW2, he will never forgive the US Army for the way they where brough home. Instead of flying back to the states they where ordered to pull the gear out from under all the B-24s and then the CBs drove bulldozers over them. Then the men where packed on this ****ty old freightor and it took them 6 six weeks to get back to the states.

All the men in that unit still hold a grudge to this date, mainly in that you spend all that time, effort, training to keep them flying and then you just flatten them in one day.

Huckebein_UK
05-24-2004, 10:13 AM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

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ZG77_Lignite
05-24-2004, 10:15 AM
I believe there are a pair of 190's being restored to air worthiness in Texas (1 may be done already?), and I was under the impression there is a D9 (or D11?) being restored somewhere, possibly Florida?

Though it is odd that there were so many produced and so few remain, remember this event occured 60 years ago, I believe it is reasonable to say that all military equippment of that age is very scarce. Governments aren't very sentimental.

ASM 1
05-24-2004, 10:17 AM
Black six...http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif now there's a tragedy, watched it on the TV... the last DB engined flyable 109 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Does the BOB memorial flight have a 109 still flying,(E or F?) or was that black six? It was a blue/greyish colour IIRC. Or - perish the thought - was it one of those horrid looking hispano re-engined jobs?

As fore the technology to rebuild DB engines being gone... don't the russians have a stack of the things? Also what about all that stuff that was discovered last year under the airport in East Berlin or wherever it was?

There is also a TA152 in bits somewhere... do the Americans have it at the smithsonian or something?

Im curious...

S!

Andrew

http://home.comcast.net/~nate.r/ta152Hns-2.jpg

NegativeGee
05-24-2004, 10:23 AM
There is a two seater FW-190 A8/U1 at Hendon, and I recall reading that its engine (presumably original) is still operational. They don't fly it though.

There is a Bf-109G10/U4 that is flyable at the Evergreen Aviation Museum and I think an E4 at the Santa Monica Museum of flying.

Not many out of ~53000 production examples!

"As weaponry, both were good, but in far different ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a florett, or foil, like that used in the precision art of fencing." - Gunther Rall

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RocketDog
05-24-2004, 10:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ASM 1:
Does the BOB memorial flight have a 109 still flying,(E or F?) or was that black six?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm afraid the BoB memorial flight is just the Spit, Hurri and Lanc. AS far as I know it's never included anything else.

Regards,

RocketDog.

Vortex_uk
05-24-2004, 10:34 AM
Doubt there are any flyable He-111s,Ju-88 or BF-110s around are there?

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GazzaMataz
05-24-2004, 10:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I'm afraid the BoB memorial flight is just the Spit, Hurri and Lanc. AS far as I know it's never included anything else. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
In all th 33 years I lived at the end of RAF Biggin Hills runway the BoB has never included an Me 109. But I do recall some of the Biggin Hill airshows having an Me 109? flying but it was only a two propellered thing (I think - its been a long time)in North African camoflage. It was usually chased by the Spit, Hurricane, Mustang and any other period allied fighter - poor fing.

I never did know what variant/mark it was. Does anyone else here have an idea?

Tickety boo...
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LilHorse
05-24-2004, 10:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vortex_uk:
Doubt there are any flyable He-111s,Ju-88 or BF-110s around are there?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There are a few He-111s, but one of them crashed reciently killing those aboard and destroying the a/c. There are not any Ju-88s or Bf-110s flying.

Black 6 was (is) a G2. There are other Bf-109s from the war out there but only a few flying.

HamishUK
05-24-2004, 10:55 AM
Black 6 the BF109G is based in Hendon. it flew until a crash in the early 90's.

http://www.blitzpigs.com/photos/Ham1.jpg

Bamatt
05-24-2004, 11:11 AM
There is a B-29 flyable. I saw it last year at the St.Louis County fair and Air Show. It was sitting with a B-24 and B-25.

http://www.stlcofair.org/air_show.html

Matz0r
05-24-2004, 11:16 AM
I think the interest for german warbirds has been growing the last few years, hopefully we'll se some flying Focke Wulfs soon:

http://www.white1foundation.org/
http://www.flugwerk.de/

http://home.swipnet.se/hotascougar/pics/p51blamgreysmall.gif

tfu_iain1
05-24-2004, 11:33 AM
black six crashed for the last time in the late 90's... i saw her fly several times, incredible sounding engine, but they had reliability problems related to the crank starting mechanism all through its show history... the start crank shaft would keep breaking, repairing it involved removing the engine and completely stripping the engine down as the starting gubbins was all to be found in the centre of the engine. i even met the project leader, russ sneddon, and the chief engineer, whose name escapes me at one of the duxford airshows i saw black 6 at. the engineer once said, 'if russ came to me today and told me that we were going to work for 20 years restoring a 109 and db engine to flying condition, id tell him where to go, and what to do with himself when he got there.'

ASM 1
05-24-2004, 11:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GazzaMataz:
In all th 33 years I lived at the end of RAF Biggin Hills runway the BoB has never included an Me 109. But I do recall some of the Biggin Hill airshows having an Me 109? flying but it was only a two propellered thing (I think - its been a long time)in North African camoflage. It was usually chased by the Spit, Hurricane, Mustang and any other period allied fighter - poor fing.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah.. I must be getting mixed up - thats probably the one I mean! Yeah poor thing http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif if only it could get its own back.... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
I never did know what variant/mark it was. Does anyone else here have an idea?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not a clue... interested though http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif AFAIK only the BF 109 B,C and D had the 2 bladed props and possibly some VERY early E's? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Nah it couldnt be that old.... could it?

More than likely it is a re-engined job... either a Jumo or a merlin http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Thanks for that anyways

S!

Andrew

http://home.comcast.net/~nate.r/ta152Hns-2.jpg

p1ngu666
05-24-2004, 11:46 AM
yeah, a real shame they didnt keep more of the planes flying http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
ud have a huge boneyard then http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
a ww2 carrier in good condition was auctioned, won by some indian scrappers by a only $5000 over a group wanting to make it a musuem
dux thingy linked the article, real sad http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

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ASM 1
05-24-2004, 11:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tfu_iain1:
black six crashed for the last time in the late 90's... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

98 it was - I remember it cos I was in my last year of high school, and met my History teacher the next day who was a real aviation buff... needless to say he was NOT too chuffed!http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

S!

Andrew

http://home.comcast.net/~nate.r/ta152Hns-2.jpg

darkhorizon11
05-24-2004, 11:55 AM
Yeah I've heard about the white 1 and the stormbirds thats cool stuff. Unfortunately time takes its toll if I remember right the last flyable 111 crashed so maybe its better that someday they are grounded, that way we can sure be sure they will all be always be with us in the future. On the other hand we still have complete blueprints to make replicas!

The only original LW bird I saw which was still flyable was the an Fi 156 Storch, which is a truly amazing plane in its own rate. Its ROC, and landing and takeoff distances are amazing. A true bush plane if I say so myself I'm surpised that no companies haven't shown interest in its design.

csThor
05-24-2004, 12:15 PM
Well the "Black 6" was not the last flying Bf 109 with Daimler Benz engine, but rather the last "original" one (at least until that Emil in the US came along). Right now there are three Bf 109's in flying condition to my knowledge:

a) the G-6 of EADS/Messerschmitt Stiftung in Manching (former spanish Buchon)

b) the G-10 "Black 2", also owned by EADS/Messerschmitt Stiftung in Manching (former spanish Buchon)

c) the Emil (can't remember if it was E-3 or E-7) which was restored to its pre-Barbarossa state when flying with 1.(J)/LG 2 which is based in the US (California ??).

Last year workers found a load of DB 605, BMW801 and Jumo 213A on the Frankfurt (Main) Airport. The engines are now mostly awaiting restoration in the German Air Force museum in Berlin-Gatow. One of the Jumo's will be used in the D-9 which is currently restored there.

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ASM 1
05-24-2004, 12:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by csThor:
Well the "Black 6" was not the last flying Bf 109 with Daimler Benz engine, but rather the last "original" one (at least until that Emil in the US came along). Right now there are three Bf 109's in flying condition to my knowledge:

a) the G-6 of EADS/Messerschmitt Stiftung in Manching (former spanish Buchon)

b) the G-10 "Black 2", also owned by EADS/Messerschmitt Stiftung in Manching (former spanish Buchon)

c) the Emil (can't remember if it was E-3 or E-7) which was restored to its pre-Barbarossa state when flying with 1.(J)/LG 2 which is based in the US (California ??).

Last year workers found a load of DB 605, BMW801 and Jumo 213A on the Frankfurt (Main) Airport. The engines are now mostly awaiting restoration in the German Air Force museum in Berlin-Gatow. One of the Jumo's will be used in the D-9 which is currently restored there.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cool! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif thanks for that http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


Now... Focke Wulf Ta 152/WkNr. 150003 according to warbirdsresourcegroup.org is Stored, awaiting restoration... last info in 2001... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif I wish somebody would... just for the sake of it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif and bung a Jumo in it! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

S!

Andrew

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LilHorse
05-24-2004, 12:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by csThor:
Well the "Black 6" was not the last flying Bf 109 with Daimler Benz engine, but rather the last "original" one (at least until that Emil in the US came along). Right now there are three Bf 109's in flying condition to my knowledge:

a) the G-6 of EADS/Messerschmitt Stiftung in Manching (former spanish Buchon)

b) the G-10 "Black 2", also owned by EADS/Messerschmitt Stiftung in Manching (former spanish Buchon)

c) the Emil (can't remember if it was E-3 or E-7) which was restored to its pre-Barbarossa state when flying with 1.(J)/LG 2 which is based in the US (California ??).

Last year workers found a load of DB 605, BMW801 and Jumo 213A on the Frankfurt (Main) Airport. The engines are now mostly awaiting restoration in the German Air Force museum in Berlin-Gatow. One of the Jumo's will be used in the D-9 which is currently restored there.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Great news about the engines. As I mentioned, there was an Emil found in a salvage yard in India reciently. Also, I believe there are a couple of 109s in a boneyard in Israel, along with some Spits and P-51s that have yet to be restored.

adadaead
05-24-2004, 12:42 PM
Yea they are nice planes



Regard, http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Only in the spirit of attack, born in a brave heart, will bring success to any fighter aircraft, no matter how highly developed it may be.

Crimea_River
05-24-2004, 04:45 PM
And then, of course, there are these guys:

http://www.stormbirds.com/project/index.html

GazzaMataz
05-25-2004, 10:55 AM
Well, this is all fascinating stuff. I will try and find out exactly what flavour of Me used to fly at Biggin. In the meantime I will look forward in the not too distant future to seeing some LW aircraft take to the skies again.

Mind you it might start someone's grandad off if they fly over Biggin Hill... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Tickety boo...
Gazzamataz
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Groundbait
05-25-2004, 11:53 AM
Hi GazzaMataz, I lived in Biggin from '77 til a couple of years ago and I'm sure I did see a 109 one year (about 5 or 6 years maybe?)

The air show has gradually lost it's attraction and prestige since the RAF left the airfield, especially as my mum worked for the OASC and I got a pass over the RAF side of the airfield http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

When I was a kid I stood behind the Lancaster as it took off one year and got blown away http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Can't imagine the health and safety gestapo letting you do that these days http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Arm_slinger
05-25-2004, 12:11 PM
There are a couple of Spanish Buchon 109's that are flight worthy/have been/ will be. There is a rumour that one may be attending flying legends this year at Duxford

As for the La5, it is an La9 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Ohhhh and there is an IL2 being restored to airworthy condition in the States somewhere http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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csThor
05-25-2004, 12:52 PM
Just to make something clear - the engines were found below the surface and were not protected from the elements. That means they can patch two or three together to make one ready for presentation, but I would doubt that any of them can be restored to working condition. Additionally the german law concerning those things is pretty strict and I doubt you'll see them outside of static planes.

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