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ZHorkmeister
07-22-2004, 02:16 AM
Thanks again to JUST BRETT for all the concentrated lessons on the D'Ni and The Atrus Family http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Thought I'd start a new topic http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Perhaps this one will be shorter ?? Hehehe http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Ummm -- ok -- accepting all the arguments and education lessons that teaches us Sirrus, Achenar, & Ghen are truly evil -- then the question becomes -- why care ?? Why bother producing games that go back in time ?? Well, perhaps I can answer that one -- because evil is part of everything good. You can't have good without evil.... and I would hope there are a few people out there in the Myst world who have compassion & understanding for Sirrus, Achenar, & Ghen. Part of us wants to try and reach out to them -- or at the least try to understand or come to grips with WHY they became evil in nature. I refuse to believe anyone is inheritantly evil .... what was it that drove the three of them into being malevolent?? Was it the nature of the D'ni to believe themselves to be sort of a " Divine " civilization?? Is that what Yeesha is trying to shed herself of ?? Divinity ??

Was Atrus & Catherine to blame?? I mean -- I've never read any of the books -- but even I can see something TERRIBLY wrong if -- in just ONE family -- your father is a mass murderer -- your grand & great-grand parents had something they did wrong or covered up -- and your own two sons are Lords Of Destruction.

Yeesha -- even in her ramblings ( I wish she would speak PLAINLY ) -- says it pretty good -- The D'ni were one SERIOUSLY messed up civilization.... and all because they could " create " worlds??

The concept of creating worlds by just writing them in a book --- you have to concede to me -- is WAY far-fetched....

Here's a head spinner --- who's to say ALL of humanity -- us humans -- who have been living here on Earth for around 50 million years -- is nothing more than ONE age written by someone like Atrus --- WOA !! HEAAAVVVYYY!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

All it would take would be one Gehn -- or Sirrus -- or Achenar -- and we would be toast .... can you imagine Mother Earth falling apart physically because the book we were written in suffers some sort of catastrophe??

Now -- on to another advanced philosophical question -- how come Yeesha hasn't come forward to all of humanity and said -- " Uhh - Hello -- I'm Yeesha -- I've sorta been living out in the New Mexico desert ( probably near Roswell ) -- and I'm not from Earth.... let me tell you a story ( ... about a man named Jed -- just kidding ) " ......

My next question is .... where did all the D'Ni go if there underground city died ?? Let me guess -- it's in another book http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Well -- at least it'll be good to see Sirrus & Achenar again --- Oooh! Oooh! I gotta poll question WITHIN this topic :

WHAT DO YOU THINK WILL HAPPEN WITH SIRRUS AND ACHENAR IN MYST IV ??

-- Me First !! : I think one or both of them will somehow escape -- or be killed in their attempt -- almost killing Yeesha in the process!!

ANY OTHER PREDICTIONS ?? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ZHorkmeister
07-22-2004, 02:16 AM
Thanks again to JUST BRETT for all the concentrated lessons on the D'Ni and The Atrus Family http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Thought I'd start a new topic http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Perhaps this one will be shorter ?? Hehehe http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Ummm -- ok -- accepting all the arguments and education lessons that teaches us Sirrus, Achenar, & Ghen are truly evil -- then the question becomes -- why care ?? Why bother producing games that go back in time ?? Well, perhaps I can answer that one -- because evil is part of everything good. You can't have good without evil.... and I would hope there are a few people out there in the Myst world who have compassion & understanding for Sirrus, Achenar, & Ghen. Part of us wants to try and reach out to them -- or at the least try to understand or come to grips with WHY they became evil in nature. I refuse to believe anyone is inheritantly evil .... what was it that drove the three of them into being malevolent?? Was it the nature of the D'ni to believe themselves to be sort of a " Divine " civilization?? Is that what Yeesha is trying to shed herself of ?? Divinity ??

Was Atrus & Catherine to blame?? I mean -- I've never read any of the books -- but even I can see something TERRIBLY wrong if -- in just ONE family -- your father is a mass murderer -- your grand & great-grand parents had something they did wrong or covered up -- and your own two sons are Lords Of Destruction.

Yeesha -- even in her ramblings ( I wish she would speak PLAINLY ) -- says it pretty good -- The D'ni were one SERIOUSLY messed up civilization.... and all because they could " create " worlds??

The concept of creating worlds by just writing them in a book --- you have to concede to me -- is WAY far-fetched....

Here's a head spinner --- who's to say ALL of humanity -- us humans -- who have been living here on Earth for around 50 million years -- is nothing more than ONE age written by someone like Atrus --- WOA !! HEAAAVVVYYY!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

All it would take would be one Gehn -- or Sirrus -- or Achenar -- and we would be toast .... can you imagine Mother Earth falling apart physically because the book we were written in suffers some sort of catastrophe??

Now -- on to another advanced philosophical question -- how come Yeesha hasn't come forward to all of humanity and said -- " Uhh - Hello -- I'm Yeesha -- I've sorta been living out in the New Mexico desert ( probably near Roswell ) -- and I'm not from Earth.... let me tell you a story ( ... about a man named Jed -- just kidding ) " ......

My next question is .... where did all the D'Ni go if there underground city died ?? Let me guess -- it's in another book http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Well -- at least it'll be good to see Sirrus & Achenar again --- Oooh! Oooh! I gotta poll question WITHIN this topic :

WHAT DO YOU THINK WILL HAPPEN WITH SIRRUS AND ACHENAR IN MYST IV ??

-- Me First !! : I think one or both of them will somehow escape -- or be killed in their attempt -- almost killing Yeesha in the process!!

ANY OTHER PREDICTIONS ?? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

matt myat
07-22-2004, 02:36 AM
ooo... umm... i thinks you are finally going to be the one to put an end to the brother's curse http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/icon_twisted.gif

where did all the D'ni go? i think that would be Releeshlan? (yep another one a Atrus's books http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif)

maztec
07-22-2004, 02:41 AM
Not at all. The act of repeatedly linking slowly causes delusional states and the onset of schizophrenia. The D'ni had some amount of natural resistance to this, but as the gene pool was watered down, the resistance decreased.

The question is what would have happened to humanity had the D'ni restoration not failed? Are humans susceptible to the affects of this travel and over time start to develop abnormal anti-social acusatory behaviorisms - including schizophrenia. Or are they somehow immune to this, as the D'ni once were, but as their blood line was diffused are no longer?

Maz

---
Consider this a disclaimer, unless otherwise stated.

Eat_My_Shortz
07-22-2004, 06:01 AM
I wonder if Maz is joking? Good for a laff anyway!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The D'ni were one SERIOUSLY messed up civilization.... and all because they could " create " worlds??
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Seriously though, think about it. The D'ni had deceivers, killers, kings who valued power over everything else. Traitors. People working to destroy them from the inside.
GEE I HOPE I NEVER MEET A D'NI. They sound like a horrible bunch of people!

HELLO? Human beings living in Age of Terrorism in earshot!

_______________________________________________
To own POTS. That is the difference between knowing the path... and walking the path.

Mary_94
07-22-2004, 07:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The concept of creating worlds by just writing them in a book --- you have to concede to me -- is WAY far-fetched.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh, I beg to differ! I have created several worlds just by writing them in a book. And I'm not the only one. Anne McCaffrey, Arthur C. Clarke, Gene Roddenbery, J.R.R. Tolkien, JK Rowling (just to name a few) have all created worlds, and even universes(!) in books that I love to visit time and time again... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

JustBrett
07-22-2004, 09:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mary_94:
Oh, I beg to differ! I have created several worlds just by writing them in a book. And I'm not the only one. Anne McCaffrey, Arthur C. Clarke, Gene Roddenbery, J.R.R. Tolkien, JK Rowling (just to name a few) have all created worlds, and even universes(!) in books that I love to visit time and time again... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif Exactly!

And Robert Heinlein would certainly agree with you. HIS authors got to visit their own "fictons" (fictional universes), and found that they, themselves, were characters in the fictons of yet other authors.

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*SLMW 1.0* No animals were harmed in the production of this message.

alexz33
07-22-2004, 11:13 AM
Hey Mary, that is sooo true! How many times have you read a book and wished you were part of it...

ps: remember me from Paris? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

JustBrett
07-22-2004, 02:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ZHorkmeister:
Thanks again to JUST BRETT for all the concentrated lessons on the D'Ni and The Atrus Family<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You're quite welcome, but you're still not paying enough attention to what I'm telling you. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I'll skip the discussion of how Sirrus, Achenar and Gehn got so twisted, since the forums are full of threads on this subject. However, I will say that I believe their problems (including Gehn's!) are all rooted in bad parenting.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>who's to say ALL of humanity ... is nothing more than ONE age written by someone like Atrus<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm to say. I already told you about Ri'neref -- so listen up. He's the man who Wrote the Book of Earth, so the D'ni people could migrate here from Garternay. So, Earth IS nothing more than ONE Age written by someone like Atrus. And we could be seriously shafted if someone got their hands on that Book and made certain changes to it. (Just destroying the Book wouldn't hurt us, though. Read the Linking FAQ I told you about earlier.)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>how come Yeesha hasn't come forward to all of humanity and said -- " Uhh - Hello -- I'm Yeesha -- I've sorta been living out in the New Mexico desert -- and I'm not from Earth<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Why should she? Also, she IS from Earth. She was born right there in New Mexico, as was her father, and her father's mother, and her paternal grandfather's mother. Many of her other relatives -- going back 10,000 years -- were also born on Earth, but down in the cavern.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>where did all the D'Ni go if there underground city died ?? Let me guess -- it's in another book<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Good guess, since I've already told you that, too. The D'ni who survived the Fall eventually moved to an Age named Releeshahn, Written by Atrus. The Book of Releeshahn is the one that Saavedro stole in Exile. (You really, really ought to go back and read the notes and journals from the games. They will answer MANY of your questions.)

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*SLMW 1.0* No animals were harmed in the production of this message.

Mary_94
07-22-2004, 02:51 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/353.gif /waves to alexz33. Of course I remember you! (I wasn't THAT jetlagged!) http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Nice to "see" you again here!

alexz33
07-23-2004, 03:19 AM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/353.gif Hehehehe its late at night here im getting, too much work so im a little http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/53.gif these days... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

maztec
07-23-2004, 04:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Eat_My_Shortz:
I wonder if Maz is joking? Good for a laff anyway!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not joking. Think about it. Makes since, doesn't it? Should ask someone over at the Guild of Healers..

---
Consider this a disclaimer, unless otherwise stated.

ZHorkmeister
07-23-2004, 07:01 PM
While I was thinking of it ... I believe one of the Miller brothers played Sirrus in the original MYST game ... but who exactly played the original Achenar -- I dont think it was the other Miller brother -- was it ??

AFGNCAAP
07-23-2004, 07:30 PM
Rand did. He played both Atrus and Sirrus.

---------
It's a conundrum, wrapped in an enigma, wrapped in a pastry, wrapped in a lie.

ArienMalfoy
07-23-2004, 08:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JustBrett:
Also, she [Yeesha] IS from Earth. She was born right there in New Mexico, as was her father, and her father's mother, and her paternal grandfather's mother.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd always had the impression that Yeesha was born on Tomahna. Her parents "brought [her] to this place", which implies that she came to the Cleft for the first time after her birth.

Also, from reading the novels I'd always had the impression that Atrus's grandmother, Anna, and her father had come from somewhere other than the area near the Cleft, though I've never been sure of that. The book does mention Anna's father spending time in Europe. It also talks about something he did in the Cleft when she was only 3, so they've obviously been there awhile. Her father was surveying the land, which implies that he had probably come there when he was older. I suppose he could have just started on that later in life though.

What I want to know is, where in New Mexico is Tadjinar? It is mentioned as being more than 100 miles from where Anna and her father were, and is apparently the closest town with a medical facility. This is what made me originally think that the Cleft was in a land like the Arabian penninsula, or perhaps Africa. That could also be why I felt that Anna, with her auburn hair bleached nearly blonde by the sun, was not from there.

And back to the discussion of linking books and the worlds they "create": Do the writers really create the Ages? I thought Atrus argued that they do not create anything, but only link to one of a limitless number of possible worlds in a limitless number of possible universes? I never quite understood that, as Atrus and Gehn could obviously alter the stability of a world depending on their writing, but I remember very distinctly that Atrus believed he was a "linker" and not a "creator". Was he wrong?

matt myat
07-23-2004, 11:00 PM
i heard that the rand brothers originally intended the cleft to be in a new mexican region rather than arabic but that's how the writer of the books interpreted it - or something like that http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif - maybe like Persia to Iran or Ceylon to Sri Lanka, Tadjinar has changed it's name as well? or perhaps it was just a name they used? or maybe Tadjinar met it's downfall or existed on another earth or perhaps there are many clefts, in new mexico, arabia, tahoma and elsewhere??? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/53.gif

which leads back to the creation/linking theories - if there are a limitless number of possible worlds then might the tinkering with a book's writing just shift the link to another world perhaps in another universe that is only minutely different?

JustBrett
07-24-2004, 12:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AFGNCAAP:
Rand did. He played both Atrus and Sirrus.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Almost. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Rand played Atrus and Achenar. Robyn played Sirrus.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ArienMalfoy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JustBrett:
Also, she [Yeesha] IS from Earth. She was born right there in New Mexico, as was her father, and her father's mother, and her paternal grandfather's mother.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'd always had the impression that Yeesha was born on Tomahna. Her parents "brought [her] to this place", which implies that she came to the Cleft for the first time after her birth.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yeesha was born at Tomahna. But, Tomahna is not an Age. It is a place in New Mexico near the Cleft. ("Near" meaning "within some number of miles", not "right beside". http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif) After Atrus wrote Releeshahn, he moved back to New Mexico and built a new home that he named "Tomahna", which is a word meaning "home" in D'ni.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Also, from reading the novels I'd always had the impression that Atrus's grandmother, Anna, and her father had come from somewhere other than the area near the Cleft, though I've never been sure of that.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I believe your reading is correct. However, Anna and her father did not live IN the Cleft. They knew where it was from their survey work, but they lived some distance away. Anna didn't turn the Cleft into her home until after she had fled D'ni with Gehn. (See the epilog of BoT.)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>What I want to know is, where in New Mexico is Tadjinar?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's kind of a sore point. The way Cyan explains it, Rand gave the basic outline of the stories to David Wingrove, who actually wrote the books. Wingrove filled in the details. However, he didn't always get things quite right, and these errors are known as "wingrovisms". In this case, Rand didn't tell Wingrove that the volcano was in New Mexico, so Wingrove set it in the middle east. (Some say that this was done on purpose, to keep a bunch of people from finding the entrance to D'ni. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif)

So, we have to look at the books as being like movies "based on a true story". Some of the stuff is fictionalized.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>And back to the discussion of linking books and the worlds they "create": Do the writers really create the Ages?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
According to D'ni religious belief, they did not. All the Ages are created by Yahvo, the Maker, who gave the D'ni the ability to link to them as a gift and a responsibility. However, there were always heretics who believed that they DID create the Ages by their writing.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Atrus and Gehn could obviously alter the stability of a world depending on their writing, but I remember very distinctly that Atrus believed he was a "linker" and not a "creator". Was he wrong?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't think Atrus was wrong, but Myst fans have been arguing about this topic for years. You might try reading the Linking FAQ (http://www.dnidesk.com/linkingfaq.html) for Cyan's explanation.

My own belief is that the Art is something like bonsai, in a way. A bonsai artist can't create a tree, he can only obtain one. However, he can make certain alterations to its growth and shape. But, he can't turn a juniper into a pine, and he could kill the tree if he tries to make alterations that are too great. Likewise, a Writer can't create an Age, but can make certain changes to it. (However, that's still a frightening amount of power to place in human hands, and gives the Writer a great responsibility to use it wisely!)

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ArienMalfoy
07-24-2004, 09:52 AM
Thanks for all the info, JustBrett. I have one more question though: How do we know Tomahna is in New Mexico? The only things I know about the Myst universe are from the games and novels, and it's been a few years since I've read the novels.

JustBrett
07-24-2004, 04:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ArienMalfoy:
I have one more question though: How do we know Tomahna is in New Mexico? The only things I know about the Myst universe are from the games and novels, and it's been a few years since I've read the novels.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is another one of the MANY bits of info about the D'niverse that we've learned outside of the games and novels. Cyan employees (especially RAWA) now and then drop a hint or a tidbit of knowledge on a forum, or Cyan Chat, or the Lyst. For example, just yesterday someone on Cyan Chat asked RAWA to tell us something we don't know about Yeesha, and he revealed that the name means "laughter".

In this case, someone figured it out from playing Exile and from other hints Cyan had let out, and RAWA admitted it. Here it is in his own words:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Yes, Atrus moved back "home" to the Cleft at the end of the Book of D'ni. Between the end of the BoD and the beginning of Exile, they built a new home a distance away, but still in the same general area, as you can probably tell from Exile.

The assumption that one of them wrote it is understandable, but all references to Tomahna have been very carefully crafted to show that it was not a place that was written by Atrus or Catherine."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

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ArienMalfoy
07-24-2004, 06:41 PM
Great! Thanks for the info. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Eat_My_Shortz
07-26-2004, 06:54 AM
On the linking-to/creating issue I think its been settled a while ago - Atrus was right. The only person who doesn't think so is Gehn. (And possibly Sirrus and Achenar)

_______________________________________________
To own POTS. That is the difference between knowing the path... and walking the path.