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View Full Version : For Oleg and kyrule2 Re: FW190 radiators.



XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 06:49 PM
kyrule,

Sorry to start a new thread on this subject, but your original thread was being taken way off-topic and I'm very interested in the original subject, which was the effect of cooling air on the FW190A.

I've gathered some interesting info(to me at least/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif ) on the subject that might be useful.

1. Their are two main functions of air for the BMW801:

A. Cooling
B. Combustion

Of course, what we are currently concerned with is cooling, and in particular, what effect did cooling air have on the top speed of the A-series Focke-Wulfs?

I use as my primary sources: Janes, Various British studies of the FW190/BMW801, as well as the commentary of RAF test pilot Eric Brown.

2. COOLING:

A twelve bladed fan(14 blades on later variants) was located at the front of the engine. This cooling fan was driven by airscrew reduction gear at 1.72x crankshaft speed and 3.14 - 3.17x airscrew speed.

More to come...





<center><img src= "http://perso.wanadoo.fr/christophe.arribat/stoffwjabo.jpg" height=205 width=385>

<center>"We are now in a position of inferiority...There is no doubt in my mind, nor in the minds of my fighter pilots, that the FW190 is the best all-round fighter in the world today."

British Air Marshall, Sholto Douglas, 17 July 1942

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 06:49 PM
kyrule,

Sorry to start a new thread on this subject, but your original thread was being taken way off-topic and I'm very interested in the original subject, which was the effect of cooling air on the FW190A.

I've gathered some interesting info(to me at least/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif ) on the subject that might be useful.

1. Their are two main functions of air for the BMW801:

A. Cooling
B. Combustion

Of course, what we are currently concerned with is cooling, and in particular, what effect did cooling air have on the top speed of the A-series Focke-Wulfs?

I use as my primary sources: Janes, Various British studies of the FW190/BMW801, as well as the commentary of RAF test pilot Eric Brown.

2. COOLING:

A twelve bladed fan(14 blades on later variants) was located at the front of the engine. This cooling fan was driven by airscrew reduction gear at 1.72x crankshaft speed and 3.14 - 3.17x airscrew speed.

More to come...





<center><img src= "http://perso.wanadoo.fr/christophe.arribat/stoffwjabo.jpg" height=205 width=385>

<center>"We are now in a position of inferiority...There is no doubt in my mind, nor in the minds of my fighter pilots, that the FW190 is the best all-round fighter in the world today."

British Air Marshall, Sholto Douglas, 17 July 1942

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 07:09 PM
Thanks for starting another non-highjacked /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif thread on this important subject. I am very interested on any info people can provide, especially Oleg. I have been trying to dig stuff up myself but it'll have to wait until I get home from work to continue. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

<center>
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"Ice Warriors", by Nicolas Trudgian.

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 07:09 PM
The cooling fan, driven by reduction gears, built up positive air pressure (it compressed air) in front of the engine.

The delivery of this (compressed) air pressure is very interesting, as Janes relates:

"...a system of internal baffles had made it possible to eliminate all external cowling excrescences."

This is why we don't see external cowl flaps wrapped around the front of the FW190 cowling. I'll comment on the exhaust "gills" or "slats" located behind and on both sides of the engine in a moment.


Lets look at the delivery of the cooling air for the BMW801/FW190A arrengement:

"Compressed fresh air from the pressure region behind the fan"...was delivered by a series if intricate internal baffles, which delivered cooling air specifically to the cylinders, cylinder heads, crankcase, accessories, and oil. (Compressed air was also provided for combustion as well, of course.)"


<center><img src= "http://perso.wanadoo.fr/christophe.arribat/stoffwjabo.jpg" height=205 width=385>

<center>"We are now in a position of inferiority...There is no doubt in my mind, nor in the minds of my fighter pilots, that the FW190 is the best all-round fighter in the world today."

British Air Marshall, Sholto Douglas, 17 July 1942

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 07:11 PM
IMO Fw-190 CEM issues is pretty much the same subject.


<center> http://www.stormbirds.com/images/discussion-main.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 07:28 PM
The interesting part is the effect of induced drag on cooling the BMW801.


The following information is from British engineer Roy Fedden, who had an opportunity to speak with BMW engineers and study BMW engines after the war:



"The whole of the whole of the air used by the powerplant is compressed by the fan and stator ring. The intake air is then taken off by the blower and dealt with seperately."

"The remaining air divides into three parts:

(A) Through nine intercooler boxes,
(B) through front-row cylinder baffles, and
(C) through rear-row cylinder baffles."

"These three streams rejoin behind the rear cylinders, and are finally "ejected" by the exhaust gases. The intercooler air is taken in a thin annular ring over the top of the cylinders, thus slightly increasing the powerplant diameter."


The next part is especially interesting, as it deals specifically with induced drag:


"Under existing design conditions, the aim is to leave the resulting effluent gas stream stationary in space, i.e., ejector thrust + mechanical work to fan just balances the total aerodynamic drag of the powerplant."






<center><img src= "http://perso.wanadoo.fr/christophe.arribat/stoffwjabo.jpg" height=205 width=385>

<center>"We are now in a position of inferiority...There is no doubt in my mind, nor in the minds of my fighter pilots, that the FW190 is the best all-round fighter in the world today."

British Air Marshall, Sholto Douglas, 17 July 1942

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 07:37 PM
More from Fedden's paper:

"The BMW 801 fan-cooled installations in the FW190 and the Dornier 217 bomber have been widely studied as examples of thorough and ingenious baffling and cowling for air coolied radial engines; but the Germans believed that a further reduction in drag to the extent of 150 to 200 hp was still possible in the FW190 installation with the BMW 801 engine, and this work was actually in hand when Germany collapsed."


<center><img src= "http://perso.wanadoo.fr/christophe.arribat/stoffwjabo.jpg" height=205 width=385>

<center>"We are now in a position of inferiority...There is no doubt in my mind, nor in the minds of my fighter pilots, that the FW190 is the best all-round fighter in the world today."

British Air Marshall, Sholto Douglas, 17 July 1942

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 07:40 PM
Great stuff FW-190fan!

I just hope Oleg gets a peek at this.



<center>
http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

"Ice Warriors", by Nicolas Trudgian.

Message Edited on 11/04/0306:41PM by kyrule2

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 07:49 PM
do you have informations what exactly changes when the pilot in the cockpit made some Cooler settings ?



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XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 07:54 PM
The FW190A, at least from the A-4 onward did have adjustable engine ventilation flaps located behind and on either side of the engine.

There was a *manualy* operated lever located on the instrument panel below and between the artificial horizon and the ROC indicator.

Eric Brown refers to setting the "cooling gills" to "one-third aperture" after starting the engine of a FW190A-4 while it was getting ready to taxi out.


Given the location and layout of the exhaust slats, I am unclear as to their use or necessity *in flight*, or if they would have the effect of decreasing the speed of the Focke-Wulf while in flight.

Given the layout of the BMW cooling system, can someone say why it should slow down the FW190, or why the radiator function would be automatic?


<center><img src= "http://perso.wanadoo.fr/christophe.arribat/stoffwjabo.jpg" height=205 width=385>

<center>"We are now in a position of inferiority...There is no doubt in my mind, nor in the minds of my fighter pilots, that the FW190 is the best all-round fighter in the world today."

British Air Marshall, Sholto Douglas, 17 July 1942

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 08:02 PM
the only thing i ever wondered was , that till the A4 it was more slits than gills. and i wondered what opened ore closed static slits ?!?!

from the A-5 on , the gills are clear, their flaps opened ore closed.

but the A2-A4,was something behind the slits ? perhaps a slide ?

here are the A2-A4 slits

http://www.luftwaffepics.com/LCBW/FW190-A3-10.jpg




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Message Edited on 11/04/0307:04PM by JG53Frankyboy

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 08:11 PM
IMO, these are two of the most relevant points WRT the original topic, which is the drag effect on cooling the FW190A/BMW801:



(A)

"...a system of internal baffles had made it
possible to eliminate all external cowling excrescences."


(B)

"These three streams rejoin behind the rear cylinders, and are finally "ejected" by the exhaust gases...Under existing design conditions, the aim is to leave the resulting effluent gas stream stationary in space, i.e., ejector thrust + mechanical work to fan just balances the total internal aerodynamic drag of the power plant."





<center><img src= "http://perso.wanadoo.fr/christophe.arribat/stoffwjabo.jpg" height=205 width=385>

<center>"We are now in a position of inferiority...There is no doubt in my mind, nor in the minds of my fighter pilots, that the FW190 is the best all-round fighter in the world today."

British Air Marshall, Sholto Douglas, 17 July 1942

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 08:20 PM
JG53Frankyboy:

(WRT exhaust slats in A-series FW)

I'll try to post some info on this from one of JG/26's technical officers later. Right now I have an appointment I have to leave for.

Changes consisted of re-routing the exhaust of the rear row of cylinders and adding or enlarging the slats.

BTW, I believe our FB FW190A-4 has a de-rated engine because of the material the exhaust pipes were made of.


<center><img src= "http://perso.wanadoo.fr/christophe.arribat/stoffwjabo.jpg" height=205 width=385>

<center>"We are now in a position of inferiority...There is no doubt in my mind, nor in the minds of my fighter pilots, that the FW190 is the best all-round fighter in the world today."

British Air Marshall, Sholto Douglas, 17 July 1942

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 08:25 PM
JG53Frankyboy wrote:
- the only thing i ever wondered was , that till the
- A4 it was more slits than gills. and i wondered what
- opened ore closed static slits ?!?!
-
- from the A-5 on , the gills are clear, their flaps
- opened ore closed.
-
- but the A2-A4,was something behind the slits ?
- perhaps a slide ?
-
- here are the A2-A4 slits


You cannot equate the drag from regular cowling flaps with drag generated by the opened ventilation slits on Fw-190 engine cowling. They are very small compared with regular cowling flaps and also they are behind the cowling. They are not directly in the air stream, they stay only in front of the exhaust gases. But this does not have an significant effect on exhaust thrust - just think at the trajectory followed by the exhaust gases in a regular exhaust stack from a inline engine, and see that it is more sinuous and less efficient that that of Fw-190.


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XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 08:32 PM
Gentalmen,
Could we please not have this turn into another FW190 forward view type of thread. I think we've seen enough of those.

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XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 10:42 PM
from my point i left the Game FB now far away. im just interested in these facts as an aircraft enthusiast that i am now for over 25 years !

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XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 11:39 PM
Copperhead, we had a good thread about this going in which Oleg said he would check into it. It turned into an issue about constant speed propellers so we started this anew. FW-190fan is putting good information out there, hopefully for Oleg to see. This is not a disagreement or us harping on something, this is a good informative thread that can hopefully lead to the proper conclusion. There is a big difference between the two and I think your comment is misplaced and poorly timed. If you don't have anything informative to add...

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"Ice Warriors", by Nicolas Trudgian.

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 12:35 AM
kyrule2 wrote:

- This is not a disagreement or us harping on
- something, this is a good informative thread that
- can hopefully lead to the proper conclusion. There
- is a big difference between the two and I think your
- comment is misplaced and poorly timed. If you don't
- have anything informative to add...


Well said kyrule!



<center><img src= "http://perso.wanadoo.fr/christophe.arribat/stoffwjabo.jpg" height=205 width=385>

<center>"We are now in a position of inferiority...There is no doubt in my mind, nor in the minds of my fighter pilots, that the FW190 is the best all-round fighter in the world today."

British Air Marshall, Sholto Douglas, 17 July 1942

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 06:44 AM
Looking at your material it seems that maybe the drag should be reduced. As some have said the design and cooling of the 190 was considered "ingenious" because of its neat, compact design without any external drag inducers. Plus the use of the propeller driven fan, the internal baffles, and the final expulsion via exhaust gases. And yes, this is a shameless bump. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

<center>
http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

"Ice Warriors", by Nicolas Trudgian.

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 08:20 AM
I think that opening the slats would have to induce more drag because more air is flowing through the engine. The faster and greater volume of air driven through there, the more drag.

"Ich bin ein Wuergerwhiner"

"The future battle on the ground will be preceded by battle in the air. This will determine which of the contestants has to suffer operational and tactical disadvantages and be forced throughout the battle into adoption compromise solutions." --Erwin Rommel

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XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 08:53 AM
lbhskier37 wrote:
- I think that opening the slats would have to induce
- more drag because more air is flowing through the
- engine. The faster and greater volume of air driven
- through there, the more drag.
-

Yes, but probably not much more than most radial engine aircraft. But I think you are losing sight of the total picture. The real question is, we already have X amount of total drag. How efficient was the 190 cooling system, and how much more drag is caused when the system is fully opened? Perhaps the system is very efficient (As some of this material suggests) then additional drag is relatively small compared to say the drag caused by opening the rads on the 109. IF (And I say if because I am not an engineer) it is more efficient, then perhaps the drag is overmodeled in this sim. Again, I dont know, because I dont know how much drag is actually modeled in the game. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif Only Oleg knows, and he did say he would look into this - which sounds promising. If nothing changes, then I feel Oleg will or already has got it right. For the most part (99% or better) he is pretty darn good at getting things right. No one is 100% right (Cept me. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif ) LOL



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XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 09:20 AM
Cool that you now enthusiast now for over 25 years....

But please then read my and Oryx answers in the original topics.

190fan moved the speech to other side because he try to input hiew the things that doesn't play the role comparing to aerodynamics flow in tunnel with irregularity and chengings speed of flow due to regulation by special devices. From this point of view it is doesn't matter is there external devices or isn't. The change of drag with regulation will be anyway present. Simply if it is only internal and well done, then the top speed could be increased comparing if such system will be partially external. But the law is the same changing the amount of airflow across the cooling system will have effect for changing the drag that will have effect on the speed of aircraft anyway.

190fan speaks here just about technical solutions of constuctions that allow to decrease the common drag of aircraft by making the system that had not external regulations devices (all internal), but it desn't means that common drag will not change due to changes of the aerodynamical tunnel quality (we can name it by such words that to do not list the all crossing the airflow details, including these that regulate that flow)

The FW 190 isn't the pioner in that item of internal cooling devices for the radial engines with additional impeller making positive pressure - I-185 project for example - in 1940 the original design of cowlnig and cooling system was the same as the first FW-190.
That was the work orienter to get maximal speed, but not the thing that it was eliminated the changes of drag due to regulation of cooling system internally.


JG53Frankyboy wrote:
- from my point i left the Game FB now far away. im
- just interested in these facts as an aircraft
- enthusiast that i am now for over 25 years !
-
<img
- src="http://www.jagdgeschwader53.flugzeugwerk.net/
- diverses/franky.gif">
-



Oleg Maddox
1C:Maddox Games

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 09:50 AM
bump for oleg

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U.S INFANTRY 1984-1991

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 10:00 AM
Would be good to read before to bump /i/smilies/16x16_robot-happy.gif

tenmmike wrote:
- bump for oleg
-
<img
- src="http://images.ar15.com/forums/smiles/anim_sni
- per2.gif">
- U.S INFANTRY 1984-1991
-



Oleg Maddox
1C:Maddox Games

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 10:09 AM
Kyrule2,

We will not reduce the drag for FW190.... We will reduce the drag for all aircraft at once since that thing wasn't tuned after all other changes done in FM. We simply forgot it (Yes, it may happens even with us!). Your post inspired me to check this factor for many types of aircraft in a sim for this night (and I'm angree because I didn't sleep well today/i/smilies/16x16_robot-happy.gif ) and we found that it was changed significally in worse side with the new FM of FB comparing to FM of original Il-2.

So in final 1.2 we will have corresponded and reduced drag for all aircraft types and systems of cooling.

Sorry that it wasn't found in the past.

However all what I wrote for you and 190fan is right. /i/smilies/16x16_robot-happy.gif


Oleg Maddox
1C:Maddox Games

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 10:25 AM
Good news! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Oleg, Thank you. Seems like you are really doing best in development in order to make the sim more realistic. I'm very impressed by you. And, I wonder if you have any plan to fix neutered La & Yak's dive-speed ( as you've mentioned before) as it should be. It's not right to reduce their dive-speed by some wrong requests. I like all aircrafts in FB regardless of their nationality.

Thank you, again. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

------------------------------------
"Heaven Shall Burn...When We Are Gathered"


Message Edited on 11/05/0309:27AM by Flying_Marduk

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 01:54 PM
so , what did the pilot realy change when he made "radiator" (lets call it that way /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif ) settings?

in the Fw190A5+ only the gills ? ore were there also changes in the internal cooling system.

and than in the A4 only the internal system?


ore were the A5+ gills "automatikly opend by the airflow of leaving cooling air.


was there a thermostat at the cylinders that managed the system automatikly ? (that is a little bit related to the game)

im NOT complaining about drag, i never did /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 03:57 PM
Thank you very much for responding Oleg. I am confident that you are correct and I will say no more on the subject. I'm glad my post did prove useful in getting drag reduced in all planes.

Thanks again for all of your hard work, your simulation alone has renewed my interest in WWII aviation. Can't wait to buy expansion and BoB because I know I will be a satisfied customer.

As a favor for the drag thing, please fix the 262's high altitude modelling and it's ability to put out engine fires permanently by shutting them down. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif (Just kidding /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif , sort of).



<center>
http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

"Ice Warriors", by Nicolas Trudgian.

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 04:50 PM
bump

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 11:47 PM
kyrule2 wrote:
- Thank you very much for responding Oleg. I am
- confident that you are correct and I will say no
- more on the subject. I'm glad my post did prove
- useful in getting drag reduced in all planes.
-
- Thanks again for all of your hard work, your
- simulation alone has renewed my interest in WWII
- aviation. Can't wait to buy expansion and BoB
- because I know I will be a satisfied customer.
-
-
Very nice to see something positive come out of people asking questions! Even if the result is somewhat different than expected. And nice to see this kind of attitude !

S!

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 12:16 PM
Flying_Marduk wrote:
- Good news! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
-
- Oleg, Thank you. Seems like you are really doing
- best in development in order to make the sim more
- realistic. I'm very impressed by you. And, I wonder
- if you have any plan to fix neutered La & Yak's
- dive-speed ( as you've mentioned before) as it
- should be. It's not right to reduce their dive-speed
- by some wrong requests. I like all aircrafts in FB
- regardless of their nationality.
-
-

What? LAs and Yaks were not the best divers, you know, La5FN and LA-7 wings break at about 800 TAS, seems about right to me..

____________________________________



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