PDA

View Full Version : Magic is so underpowered its a joke



ereius69
09-01-2015, 09:20 PM
I just played a game where I had a magic hero focusing on prime magic. The other guy had a might hero focusing on offence and warmachines.

I had 3 times his army literally I was playing dungeon he was playing elves. He was also 3 levels higher then me. I wanted to focus on doing damage with implosion on his army. My implosion kills 10 core creatures 10 bloody core creatures its a joke .... and another 4 with its echo.....

I barely won barely and I had 3 times his troops. If some one tells me how to upload the savefile I will. But at this rate you can scrap all magic heroes 70 elf archers core kill 35 elite (medusa) with one shot and my implosion kills 10 bloody archers...

Grim_04
09-01-2015, 10:46 PM
I just played a game where I had a magic hero focusing on prime magic. The other guy had a might hero focusing on offence and warmachines.

I had 3 times his army literally I was playing dungeon he was playing elves. He was also 3 levels higher then me. I wanted to focus on doing damage with implosion on his army. My implosion kills 10 core creatures 10 bloody core creatures its a joke .... and another 4 with its echo.....

I barely won barely and I had 3 times his troops. If some one tells me how to upload the savefile I will. But at this rate you can scrap all magic heroes 70 elf archers core kill 35 elite (medusa) with one shot and my implosion kills 10 bloody archers...

The direct damage spells are a bit under-powered, but the debuffs can get ridic.

Fortune in 4x4 from the Prime skill tree is insane. Letting you cast twice in a round, is also really good.

Blizzard? Fog Shroud? So many good debuffs and buffs.

No longer are the best spells in the game are just a few that do direct damage.

TheMetalfreak
09-01-2015, 11:06 PM
Yeah, I want to see all spells equal good across the screen, feel that the direct spells in earlier games was the optimal choice no matter. Like the debuffs and buffs so far.

RobvD84
09-02-2015, 09:36 AM
Well yeah Sylvan are indeed OP when they have the combo full range skill and the ult race skill. This will give the ranged units in Sylvan such a boost. I really think they should remove the full range and replace it with a another +2 or 3/ 10% dmg for shooters. Also when i had a Sylvan Hero who could get this skill (i mostly use Osir for this) when i got around level 10 -12 i already got nearly 20 attack, and not to mention that each point of "revenge" will get you 4 attack for each of your unit, so that is another 12 of you have the max of 3, and with utl race skill, you always do crit hits. And i don't think a magic hero would have a high attack or defence. So yeah OP.

ereius69
09-02-2015, 09:46 AM
Well yeah Sylvan are indeed OP when they have the combo full range skill and the ult race skill. This will give the ranged units in Sylvan such a boost. I really think they should remove the full range and replace it with a another +2 or 3/ 10% dmg for shooters. Also when i had a Sylvan Hero who could get this skill (i mostly use Osir for this) when i got around level 10 -12 i already got nearly 20 attack, and not to mention that each point of "revenge" will get you 4 attack for each of your unit, so that is another 12 of you have the max of 3, and with utl race skill, you always do crit hits. And i don't think a magic hero would have a high attack or defence. So yeah OP.

That is my point, at lvl 12 you have like 21 attack with a might hero... i had like 5 defence and 4 attack with my magic hero and around 15 magic. There is no way the current spells make up for the difference in attack and defence. Whats even more ****ed up is that the might hero still has access to spells GOOD debuf spells and buffs for instance in the above mentioned game he still casted : arrow storm on his archers and blizzard on my troops. The difference between a might hero and magic hero is staggering direct damage spells need to be seriously buffed late game like doubled or tippled in power to make a magic hero worth it at all

ereius69
09-02-2015, 09:50 AM
The direct damage spells are a bit under-powered, but the debuffs can get ridic.

Fortune in 4x4 from the Prime skill tree is insane. Letting you cast twice in a round, is also really good.

Blizzard? Fog Shroud? So many good debuffs and buffs.

No longer are the best spells in the game are just a few that do direct damage.

Grimm the might hero still has access to buffs and debuffs..... the only purpose to go full magic is not for the buffs or debuffs its for the direct damage spells

MoritzBradtke
09-02-2015, 04:54 PM
maybe, this should be posted or moved into the Feedback Forum better...

HOWEVER, this is an important Topic, it was an important Topic in Hereos VI as well i feel, it is hard to say if Magic hereos or might hereos are better at the Moment, i didnt test both enough BUT
some People also say that Magic is OP, especially the area spells like Tsunami are supposed to be devasting on higher Levels,
I think that the Balance isnt that bad atm but of course some poitns here are also valid, if u give a might hero lots of offense and defense and every single creature has a benefit of it,

by the way, it was a great idea to Change the mechanic how might and magic works all creatures receive their Bonus dmg from might now instead of the splitted Thing with might for might creatures and Magic for spell creatures in hereos VI, i think ist easier to Balance stuff this way, however so creatures on might hereos have a steady nice Bonus on their stats due to the high might and defense value and they get also warcries, i like tghe warcries and they feel weaker than spells i think what they also should but im not sure how strong they are in the end, noone can say until it is more tested, i'll try it if i have the time,
so Magic heroes have to catch up the loose in might and defense with the their spellpower, so in the end there has to be a ballance between might hereos' might and defense buffs+ warcries and Magic hereos' spells and the lower might and defense buffs, i dont think Magic hereos are weak but i cant say yet if there is the proper Balance but i think there can always things be done and normaly might hereos are stronger than Magic heroes from my experience, but i really lack the Information atm, since the beta is expanded we should test it now but i cant do it alone :x

RobvD84
09-02-2015, 10:39 PM
I think it is more or less a problem about skill combination. Some combinations are strong and you can have them pretty fast (if you choose free). And i don't know if magic heroes can have skill combo's (magic) that gives them a huge advantage (maybe the combo of Light Wisdom, Fire Wisdom, etc, etc.?)

MoritzBradtke
09-03-2015, 02:42 AM
well, after some first tests, i can say that Magic hereos seem to have more Impact on the battle than might hereos although might hereos are also quite good, i think the Balance is quite good to be serious, there is nice stuff for a might heroes just as for Magic hereos and the scaling for spells feels good, i would rather say ist too good than might hereos being too strong...

i'll test it more but i dont think there are serious Problems

Dethcord
09-03-2015, 08:41 AM
well, after some first tests, i can say that Magic hereos seem to have more Impact on the battle than might hereos although might hereos are also quite good, i think the Balance is quite good to be serious, there is nice stuff for a might heroes just as for Magic hereos and the scaling for spells feels good, i would rather say ist too good than might hereos being too strong...

i'll test it more but i dont think there are serious Problems

Magic heroes actually ARE weak, because they lack really devastating spells, while might heroes can have access to buffs and debuffs, which scale with their army's power, and with their might and perks. For example every turn said hero can duplicate a creature stack which will be even more numerous than the original one, and with expert dark magic this stack will ignore first instances of damage. This exact might hero can cast despair, debuffing enemy morale by -105, for example, and so on. It all scales with his army's power. The only reason to go for magic hero always was a direct damage magic. I used to play implosion/disitegrate centered heroes before and they did well.

But now it's useless, because there is no reason to ever go a hero without an offence tree. Magic won't matter if said might hero will destroy 4 stacks of your army in one turn.

Game needs much more damage dealing magic, and it needs to be really destructive, as a reward for not having a vital offence or leadership tree.

So far every faction's heroes can be divided by tiers. For example Tier 1 for dungeon is Yrris (Stalker growth increase on a first week or two, able to master dark magic, able to move fast via exploration tree, high base attack and so on). Darkstorm comes second - he wouldn't if he had no offence tree in his arsenal.

ereius69
09-03-2015, 09:17 AM
Mortiz how exactly did you come to the conclusion that there is balance...? I test with other players not the AI.AI hero builds currently suck, test vs a propermight hero and ull see the difference. Magic falls off drastically late game when all core creature stacks are in the 300s and elites in the 50s

Dethcord
09-03-2015, 09:29 AM
The only use for magic is to empower those stacks.

RobvD84
09-03-2015, 11:05 AM
Maybe there is a skill needed that gives magic heroes more % dmg for spells (like sorcery in H3). But indeed there is more things needed to make it more "balanced". And to think that Ubi did all this with "balance" in mind. Everything needed to be balanced. But then again i think making a game perfectly balanced is impossible. Once you change something for the sake of balancing, you will start doing nothing else just to try and balance things. WoW is the perfect example of that, where ppl keep complaining about classes and Blizz keeps doing what ppl wants.
Also there is the case of diplomacy (wich has it's own topic on this forum), i don't know how many magic users can get diplomacy, but i have feeling most might heroes have acces to it. And since this skill is OP too, a might hero wit this skill is another problem for magic heroes. So there is still a lot to fix.

ereius69
09-03-2015, 12:32 PM
diplomacy has been nerfed already together with architect skill. Its not in our version of the game however. There is a very significant difference between magic and might and that is worrisome. If I could show you the battle I am talking about it would speak a thousand words il see if i can somehow record it.


On a separate issue has anyone been able to find a use for Armageddon spell? its a nice spell that also obliterates you, I can only see it used with fire immune creatures of which there arnt many

Dethcord
09-03-2015, 12:43 PM
diplomacy has been nerfed already together with architect skill. Its not in our version of the game however. There is a very significant difference between magic and might and that is worrisome. If I could show you the battle I am talking about it would speak a thousand words il see if i can somehow record it.


On a separate issue has anyone been able to find a use for Armageddon spell? its a nice spell that also obliterates you, I can only see it used with fire immune creatures of which there arnt many

Armageddon was useful before if you could get a magic immunity ring or something like that.

GalaadleHaut
09-03-2015, 01:36 PM
magic, underpowered? loooooooooool

MoritzBradtke
09-03-2015, 03:38 PM
Mortiz how exactly did you come to the conclusion that there is balance...? I test with other players not the AI.AI hero builds currently suck, test vs a propermight hero and ull see the difference. Magic falls off drastically late game when all core creature stacks are in the 300s and elites in the 50s

maybe, it is that way in late game, i've tested early game so far and Magic hereos can aoe debuff and buff which are quite strong and may have greater Impact on the battle as might hereos at the start with their warcries,
also the differences in might and defense between might and Magic hereos arent that big at the beginning, it all changes with talents and might hereos get some nice stuff, just as Magic hereoes, also i was able to do some devasting dmg with Firewall, only a Tier 2 spell quite early on lv 7, i've been able to kill several elites before they could even act

GalaadleHaut
09-03-2015, 05:03 PM
Yeah last time I played lvl 1 spell fire bolt kills full stack with unskilled hero of lvl 1 on first battle on day 1, but in late game you guys should try Minasli with Tsunami lol

bassi444
09-03-2015, 06:34 PM
There was never a difference to the state you are critizising. Magic Heroes have always been the rush heroes, whereas the might heroes strength always was late game, because of the bigger armies where the att/def stats come to full potential and the relative amount of units killed by the magic hero shrinks.

MoritzBradtke
09-03-2015, 09:24 PM
There was never a difference to the state you are critizising. Magic Heroes have always been the rush heroes, whereas the might heroes strength always was late game, because of the bigger armies where the att/def stats come to full potential and the relative amount of units killed by the magic hero shrinks.

sounds right but i think with warcries might hereos also have a nice tool early on and later on Magic hereos still will be good, asa i said, i dont think there are serious Problems, spells should be looked at and balanced a bit if necesarry (: i think it's good that there arent so many spells so that will be easier

disturbed338
09-03-2015, 11:11 PM
Implosion does damage depending on the stack size, so it's not good to rely just on Prime magic for damage. Flat damage spells (Lightning/Fire) will always be better against smaller armies

Fyrestorme
09-10-2015, 05:17 PM
No longer are the best spells in the game are just a few that do direct damage.

fire spec. black dragons. armageddon.

'nuff said

Zawsed
09-11-2015, 08:22 PM
I used a magic heroe once and she was the most OP heroe i could test, i think her name was Minasly i had the water to expert and prime till gm and metamagic.

I think the tsunami spell is just broken his ranged is ridiculously big and if u are 1 to act u can hit the whole enemy creatures and due the gm in prime i was able to cast tsunami two times in a turn ( i wanst sure if this was a bug becouse in my language the gm in prime says that the spell must be a prime spell to get the benefit of the second cast but i was able to cast 2 spells of my choice even attack after a spell) dealing 2k-3k damage per creature to all enemies so if the enemy had 7 stacks of creatures i was able to do 28k-42k damage per turn. The neutrals were 1-shooted the same as the ai who lose in turn 1.

Tsunami cost is 40 mana but prime have a skill that gives u 40 mana after a combat so i never run out of mana. Simply the most broken thing i have seen in the game i didnt even need creatures to win at all just use the sigmurgh to get profit of his awesome speed, only the black dragon were a threat becouse theys are inmune to deal whit them i just doble summon elementals till victory. Academia magic guild not have a preferred magic school so i had 100% chance to get the tsunami spell.

Must to be said that the tsunami had a bug that never hit 1 creature( the one placed in the mid) but my ice bolt and circle were dealing 2k+ damage too( another bug was that the displayed damge was wrong i always was dealing more damage that the damage shown).

In resume dunno about the other magic schools but the water+prime+ metagic was OP as hell.

RobvD84
09-11-2015, 08:33 PM
It still might depend on how much Magic (power) your hero has. I had Minasly too, but he never got any mp (atleast he didn't get that much from leveling up. I think i had a Magic of 6 or something with 3 from adventure buildings. Altho it was so low, i did do a lot of dmg with water spells. But in comparison with might heroes, this does seem little i think. On the other side it could also depends on wich spells you get.

wolfing1
09-14-2015, 03:27 AM
One thing of note, maybe the problem was specifically with the archers? I know they've said they will nerf archery so perhaps that will help this problem?

RobvD84
09-14-2015, 09:59 AM
Yeah i think that is probably the problem. It made especially the Sylvan OP in the early stages of the game. You could waltz on all neutralls pretty early on if you are lucky.