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RVSage
08-29-2015, 06:18 PM
AC universe has mad multiple memorable protagonists , but Arno is loathed by most , I suggest why in this write up.


Let us begin with Ezio , the AC god for many fans.

Ezio was a character filled with romance, family, social values. These values, with Assassin training shaped him to a great character, one of high morality and wisdom. Every fan/player could relate to him in one way or another. He was full of life, and the way he tackled situations , bought back some memories of my own life to me. I am sure many fans felt that way


Altair, was a character who showed , that talented people who are so over confident of themselves make mistakes and more often than not , they end up starting from square one and have to endure sacrifices. This reflects life of so many talented people I have seen across various fields. This one of the main reasons I believe Altair is loved .

Haytham, even though he was not a primary protagonist he was loved by many, because of his clarity in thoughts and for being a person who wore his convictions. He tried to make the best of his differences with others, a character that faced dilemmas like many of us do.

Connor/Adewale, represents the oppressed in the human history, they represent how some people for their selfishness ruined other's culture and life, claiming superiority. they represent people who fight for equality , again characters we have seen in our life

Edward, represents the brash , outlaws of the society. They are not essentially bad people, but they are not confined by the laws of governments e.tc. Example of such characters in our lives includes pirates, hackers, money launderers, smugglers e.t.c . Again a familiar character type

Arno ....... He is the typical unrealistic hollywood hero, madly in love,(Reality is far away). He has this filmy feeling to him, and I personally had a hard time relating to his views, actions. Thus his story had no effect on people experiencing it. There were moments where you feel sorry for him, but pretty much that's it. You dont feel his anger or happiness. That is why Unity's plot line turned out to be boring . Arno was not a character most people could relate to.

What do you guys think? What could have made Arno better??

Shahkulu101
08-29-2015, 08:39 PM
Arno could have been interesting, there are a few moments were he is genuinely funny and some moments with Elise were nice, but he was the victim of a very dull, mediocre storyline.

Dan Jeannotte's great performance salvages the character somewhat. Very well acted - accent a tiny bit dodgy though.

D.I.D.
08-29-2015, 08:41 PM
I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with Arno. He starts quite well, and the new subtle animations added a lot of expression that we'd never seen before. I liked it that he was an assassin who messes up the plan and while it's saddening to me that so many people interpret Unity as a story in which "Élise was such a ***** to him", I think the story needed a little more fleshing out to explore what happened. Of course, where things are unsaid there is every danger that I am inserting my own truth, but to me this was a story about the way lovers can dress up selfishness as selflessness.

I saw Arno as having lied, perhaps even to himself, that his actions were blameless: the excuse that he only acted or failed to act out of love for Élise. Really, he was selfish. Élise's survival would mean the preservation of his future dream world, the bliss he thought was waiting, but Élise had already told him she would happily die to achieve their aims and he must promise to uphold their plan. He promised, and he broke that promise, and he ignored Élise's wishes. He doesn't quite respect her enough as a warrior, because he's too focussed on an image of her as a wife.

The story sacrifices so much for this love story. The rich history of the real events is pushed to the side and bent out of shape, in favour of a totally bloodless romance that fails to convince. There's something very childish about its shyness and refusal to confront the emotions. Perhaps something vital was cut from the game that shed some great story moments with it, or perhaps the increased costs of making cutscenes in the new technology prevented them from telling more story. There's a general failure of imagination on the creative director's part, to really visualise how a French Revolution game should have felt, to give it a soul that pulsed through every moment of it, that sculpted its form from section to section. I think perhaps his weirdly pro-royalist take on the Revolution itself prevented him from mining the immense potential of the setting, and caused him to sanitise entire factions of the players (or indeed poorly represent others). It's not enough to fix your vehicular character in those conditions - the game had bigger problems. The other designers did such fantastic work building this world, and their work deserved better.

strigoi1958
08-29-2015, 11:31 PM
I liked them all.. obviously some more than others... Connor was great, unfortunately he followed a succession of Ezio games and we had grown with Ezio and had time to bond/ relate to him... As Connor was an entirely different personality some people disliked AC3... which is a shame as it had so many great things.

With Arno..... (this is just my opinion) I think Unity seemed abridged... almost as though some of the plot had been edited out to make the release date.... whether that is right or not there seems to be less content for me to get to know Arno sufficiently ... also I think some people found it predictable and foresaw Elise dying.... maybe an alternative ending with a twist would have made Arno more interesting and appealing.

It worked with Haytham... softly spoken, but lethal and the twist when we discover where his loyalty lies..... I wish they'd make a Haytham game

SixKeys
08-30-2015, 12:11 AM
With Arno..... (this is just my opinion) I think Unity seemed abridged... almost as though some of the plot had been edited out to make the release date....

That is pretty much exactly what happened. The original idea behind Unity was akin to the movie Red Violin, where we follow one object throughout multiple historical eras as it passes through the hands of several different people. For whatever reason plans changed, and Arno, who may originally have been planned as just one protagonist out of many, got to fill up an entire game. That's why so much of the game feels jumbled and thematically inconsistent, like the Rifts.

strigoi1958
08-30-2015, 12:22 AM
please don't mention the rifts ;) I have long wanted a game where we use the animus fully to access different eras and people... even jumping from assassin to templar (by obtaining dna via blood or hair etc...) in an effort to track information/ artifacts etc... to the MD... a kind of extended Desmond type game (even though I'm not a Desmond fan... but he could still be accessed via the animus if needed)... but the rifts I really didn't like... even though we jumped eras.

Consus_E
08-30-2015, 12:24 AM
That is pretty much exactly what happened. The original idea behind Unity was akin to the movie Red Violin, where we follow one object throughout multiple historical eras as it passes through the hands of several different people. For whatever reason plans changed, and Arno, who may originally have been planned as just one protagonist out of many, got to fill up an entire game. That's why so much of the game feels jumbled and thematically inconsistent, like the Rifts.

Source?

Farlander1991
08-30-2015, 12:46 AM
Source?

Loomer's interview with Jeffrey Yohalem. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rt9q3F1JS7E) I don't remember the timestamp, but tables of content says initial ideas for Unity are discussed at 22:10, so probably around there.

CrossedEagle
08-30-2015, 01:11 AM
In my mind (prepare for circular reasoning), Unity wasn't bad because it was a love story. It was bad because it was badly executed. It's a shame. I think a love story and the French Revolution if both were fully fleshed out would make for a good story. The French Revolution wasn't all black and white and neither are the Assassins and Templars. If they focused on extremism in both factions and political factions and showed how unity was the solution...the story would already be a lot better. And love=unity, how did the writers miss that...

I love your points on Elise too, D.I.D.

This is just my opinion, but I don't know if I'd want a game quite like "The Red Violin". I'm not sure it would work for a game, but I think it'd work for a series of games.

RVSage
08-30-2015, 02:23 AM
I completely agree with D.I.D,strigoi and as sixkeys said would have been interesting had there been multiple protagonists across time periods

Gold31415
09-01-2015, 03:45 PM
AC universe has mad multiple memorable protagonists , but Arno is loathed by most , I suggest why in this write up.


I don't know how many of you are old enough to have played every Assassin's Creed from the first one onwards.

But the problem with Arno is simple.

The AC franchise peaked at Assassins Creed II / Brotherhood and slowly declined until AC4 (increasing total global audiences actually shift the favour even more to ACI-ACII levels). Brotherhood showed buyers that it was just a big DLC for ACII and that showed in sales of AC:R onwards.

Total sales:

ACI: 8 million
ACII 9 million
AC:B: 8 million
AC:R: 7 million
AC3: 7 million
AC4: 11 million

Everyone complained how boring Connor was, etc. and how Edward was much better.

So for Unity Ubisoft decided to copy the ACII concept and tried to emulate ACII success. One city, a brash handsome youngster (down to the same pony tail!), a story of revenge.

Thats IT!

The problem was in the script writing. Arno had NONE of the charm that Roger Craig Smith put into the character of Ezio. Arno had NONE of the pickup skill with women that Ezio had. Some cutscenes with Arno were painful to watch, such a loser with women!

If a gamer is 18 or 22 they might not notice it, but a 30 year old will instantly go man that is so weak, you're going to crash and burn saying that line to a girl. It's like the scriptwriters didn't know how to write a charismatic male lead and just wrote a loser with no pickup skills or male charisma.


The problem with Arno was that Ubisoft was trying to recreate Ezio but somewhere along the line they forgot to use the people who created Ezio but used people who really don't know about charisma themselves.


Edit: Weird coincidence? Jeffrey Yohalem, scriptwriter for Unity is homosexual
(This is obviously a statement of fact and not an opinion).

https://twitter.com/jeffreyyohalem/status/428544980689633280

D.I.D.
09-01-2015, 04:10 PM
You try and give it the big man talk, but you sound like a stupid little boy. Grown men don't talk about "pick-up skill" and "losers" as if sex is a particularly ****ty video game.

Yohalem didn't write Unity. He wrote Dead Kings. And Brotherhood, so that's your theory ruined. [edit- And he was a writer on AC2! Homosexuals: More versatile than you ever imagined!]

It's not true to say Arno has "NONE" of Ezio's charm. He has some charm, some genuine wit, but it's not maintained well and quickly drains out. He generally doesn't have as much interaction with his city as did Ezio, and turning him full PUA ****head would have knackered their attempt at a love story even more (remember how many people found the Cristina side story unconvincing because the effects aren't consistent in Ezio's life if you line up the events chronologically?).

Farlander1991
09-01-2015, 05:36 PM
Total sales:

ACI: 8 million
ACII 9 million
AC:B: 8 million
AC:R: 7 million
AC3: 7 million
AC4: 11 million

Where did you get those numbers from? They're factually untrue. You can check by the vgchartz site that tracks retail sales. While this is not the FULL amount of sales, it doesn't track digital ones as those aren't openly disclosed by companies (when Ubi announced that AC3 sold 12 millions, the retail sales were at 10 million, which means that digital was 2 million), you can see the difference significantly:
AC1: 11.23 million (4.25 million by end of 2007)
AC2: 11.29 million (5.8 million by end of 2009)
ACB: 6.83 million (3 million by end of 2010)
ACR: 9.13 million (5.9 million by end of 2011)
AC3: 12.88 million (9 million by end of 2012)
AC4: 12.34 million (6.8 million by end of 2013)

And that's just retail, I'm not even mentioning digital which would increase the amount of sales of each game (Steam alone has 700k to 1 million owners of each of the aforementioned games, though that's not official information, just aggregated by steamspy, and that's just Steam - there's uPlay, PSN)

So, the situation is as follows: you say that Brotherhood has shown that it's just a DLC and it showed on sales onwards - it's not true. What's true is that after Brotherhood, sales of other games has actually steadily increased - until AC4 which had a bit of a slow start (it's initial sales weren't great due to the division between generations, a bunch of people were holding off the purchase, and also the public reception of AC3 didn't help much), but it quickly caught up, actually.

Now, ACU though, it's got 6.78 million retail sales. 5.3 of which were done by the end of 2014. Yeah, not that much increase. However, the number is not just because of the poor techniqual quality on release and questionable reception (though it has and will affect the sales greatly - ACU will never catch up with the previous titles I believe), but also due to its pure next-gen nature, as together with Rogue the games in the first part of 2015 have sold 10 million (retail + digital) with Rogue filling the void for the last-gen only install base, and that so far is the steady number of sales for AC series. ACS will still have it tough, though. It won't really have to deal with the problem of being next-gen only anymore, though, as by its release install base of new consoles would be far greater than it was in 2014.

Xstantin
09-01-2015, 05:59 PM
The problem was in the script writing. Arno had NONE of the charm that Roger Craig Smith put into the character of Ezio. Arno had NONE of the pickup skill with women that Ezio had. Some cutscenes with Arno were painful to watch, such a loser with women!



oh no, nobody wants to play as a character who's a loser with women. Awful, just awful :rolleyes:
also that weird coincidence thing, how does that even matter :confused:

VestigialLlama4
09-01-2015, 06:10 PM
Arno had NONE of the pickup skill with women that Ezio had. Some cutscenes with Arno were painful to watch, such a loser with women!

Far be it for me to come to Arno's defense but the story of UNITY is far from being that of "a loser with women". He's not a womanizer like Ezio at all for one thing and secondly he and Elise have clearly been in love all their lives.

As for Ezio's "pickup skill". In Brotherhood, his crush Cristina rejected him for being too dorky at their first encounter, it took some stalking and chance rescue for him to get a date. Secondly Ezio doesn't understand women very well. He underestimates Claudia, then Caterina Sforza and even misread Cristina in the flashback. It's only when he stopped trying that he had a genuine relationship.


Edit: Weird coincidence? Jeffrey Yohalem, scriptwriter for Unity is homosexual
(This is obviously a statement of fact and not an opinion).

You are quite right that its a statement of fact, a statement of fact that you are an appalling human being.

RVSage
09-01-2015, 06:34 PM
I don't know how many of you are old enough to have played every Assassin's Creed from the first one onwards.


The problem with Arno was that Ubisoft was trying to recreate Ezio but somewhere along the line they forgot to use the people who created Ezio but used people who really don't know about charisma themselves.


Edit: Weird coincidence? Jeffrey Yohalem, scriptwriter for Unity is homosexual
(This is obviously a statement of fact and not an opinion).



Never bring in personal stuff into a game discussion. Try to be nicer to people, your gaming experience has nothing to do with his personal life. I am sorry, I guess you need disillusionment

EmptyCrustacean
09-01-2015, 06:59 PM
The problem was in the script writing. Arno had NONE of the charm that Roger Craig Smith put into the character of Ezio. Arno had NONE of the pickup skill with women that Ezio had. Some cutscenes with Arno were painful to watch, such a loser with women! If a gamer is 18 or 22 they might not notice it, but a 30 year old will instantly go man that is so weak, you're going to crash and burn saying that line to a girl. It's like the scriptwriters didn't know how to write a charismatic male lead and just wrote a loser with no pickup skills or male charisma.

He never attempted to pick up women! In fact very early on we're shown a scene of a woman approaching him to dance and all he could do was focus on Elise. That cleverly established that Arno is a one woman man. It was the only aspect of him I felt made him unique from other Assassins. Edward, Ezio and Shay were all bragging about the women they banged and Connor and Altair were too stoic to the point of appearing asexual until much later on. Arno was madly in love with ONE woman which is interesting because you wouldn't think a cheeky, mischevious guy like Arno would be a one woman guy but he is. It makes me wonder who he went on to marry and have kids with.


Edit: Weird coincidence? Jeffrey Yohalem, scriptwriter for Unity is homosexual
(This is obviously a statement of fact and not an opinion).

That's completely and utterly irrelevant. :rolleyes:

The problem with Arno was that outside of his love of Elise he had no identity. No values, no core beliefs. He was just sarcastic, cheeky and in love with Elise. That's all. This doesn't help when the game makers essentially attempted to turn Unity into an RPG rather than just letting us BE Arno - after all, the entire point is that we are reliving the genetic memories of the ancestor. It's his world, not ours.

GunnerGalactico
09-01-2015, 07:48 PM
oh no, nobody wants to play as a character who's a loser with women. Awful, just awful :rolleyes:

After Ezio, this was the desired trend that every other protagonist was expected to follow. If a character does not flirt with women or have a fun and bubbly personality, then that character is considered too boring and not good enough. :rolleyes:

Gold31415
09-01-2015, 09:36 PM
Where did you get those numbers from? They're factually untrue. You can check by the vgchartz site that tracks retail sales. While this is not the FULL amount of sales, it doesn't track digital ones as those aren't openly disclosed by companies (when Ubi announced that AC3 sold 12 millions, the retail sales were at 10 million, which means that digital was 2 million), you can see the difference significantly:
AC1: 11.23 million (4.25 million by end of 2007)
AC2: 11.29 million (5.8 million by end of 2009)
ACB: 6.83 million (3 million by end of 2010)
ACR: 9.13 million (5.9 million by end of 2011)
AC3: 12.88 million (9 million by end of 2012)
AC4: 12.34 million (6.8 million by end of 2013)


I got my numbers from the wikipedia sites for AC, ACII, ACB, etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassin%27s_Creed:_Brotherhood#Sales

I believe that the wiki sites list the sales after 2 years, not to date. So while the totals are not accurate, the trends (which game sold more in relation to another game) generally match your listed totals.

I firmly believe that with ACU Ubisoft tried to copy the ACII concept. As for Ezio vs Arno, to me Ezio was more charismatic as a male vs women, as opposed to Arno being completely owned by Elise throughout Unity (remember the "I love you", in the balloon), obviously that's my opinion.

To me it was a coincidence to hear that the scriptwriter was gay. When does repeating that someone is gay make you a ****ty person? Jeez, Ellen Degeneres is gay, does saying that make me a ****ty person too? Some people are gay, it happens, get over it. I just thought it was a weird coincidence that (to me) Arno didn't know his way around women (compared to Ezio), and that is my opinion.

VestigialLlama4
09-01-2015, 09:53 PM
To me it was a coincidence to hear that the scriptwriter was gay. When does repeating that someone is gay make you a ****ty person? Jeez, Ellen Degeneres is gay, does saying that make me a ****ty person too? Some people are gay, it happens, get over it. I just thought it was a weird coincidence that (to me) Arno didn't know his way around women (compared to Ezio), and that is my opinion.

Do not try and pretend you did not say what you did in fact say:


The problem was in the script writing. Arno had NONE of the charm that Roger Craig Smith put into the character of Ezio. Arno had NONE of the pickup skill with women that Ezio had. Some cutscenes with Arno were painful to watch, such a loser with women!

If a gamer is 18 or 22 they might not notice it, but a 30 year old will instantly go man that is so weak, you're going to crash and burn saying that line to a girl. It's like the scriptwriters didn't know how to write a charismatic male lead and just wrote a loser with no pickup skills or male charisma.


The problem with Arno was that Ubisoft was trying to recreate Ezio but somewhere along the line they forgot to use the people who created Ezio but used people who really don't know about charisma themselves.


Edit: Weird coincidence? Jeffrey Yohalem, scriptwriter for Unity is homosexual

You basically said that because Mr. Yohalem is gay he can't write heterosexual relationships. Leaving aside the countless gay artists who proved otherwise, the fact is Mr. Yohalem was just one of the many writers who worked on Unity and his main contribution was the DLC of Unity rather than the main story.

So next time you are going to hawk your stuff here, have some courtesy, sympathy and taste.

Gold31415
09-01-2015, 10:08 PM
Do not try and pretend you did not say what you did in fact say:



You basically said that because Mr. Yohalem is gay he can't write heterosexual relationships. Leaving aside the countless gay artists who proved otherwise, the fact is Mr. Yohalem was just one of the many writers who worked on Unity and his main contribution was the DLC of Unity rather than the main story.

So next time you are going to hawk your stuff here, have some courtesy, sympathy and taste.

If someone tells me that I might not be the best at writing gay relationship stories between men, I will not be deeply hurt. Why can a gay mans' ability to write heterosexual scripts not be criticized?

The fact that it is my "opinion" that the story of Unity has a main protagonist who in my "opinion" is unsuccessful with the opposite gender compared to the earlier protagonist (Ezio), in my "opinion" it was a coincidence when I subsequently heard the story writer was a gay man.

The fact that it appears that the scriptwriter was one of many may be, I didn't know. Nor did I say Arno story with Elise was terrible BECAUSE the scriptwriter was gay. Someones sexuality should not determine their script writing ability. I am not ashamed of my opinion and you trying to pigeonhole me into being some sort of inconsiderate a-hole won't change that.

It's my opinion that Arno was not written well (compared to Ezio) in his relationship with Elise, the fact that (admittedly one of) the scriptwriters turned out to be gay raised my eyebrow.

That's it. I don't care how much you try to push me into an a-hole role. It's my opinion.

Edit: Do people instantly rise above all forms of criticism when they come out of the closet? Do people have to be referred to as Mr. soso just because they are gay?

I don't ever remember anyone referring to Roger Craig Smith as Mr. Smith? Why so up in arms?

Xstantin
09-01-2015, 10:19 PM
If a character does not flirt with women or have a fun and bubbly personality, then that character is considered too boring and not good enough. :rolleyes:

sounds about right after all Connor/Ezio/someone else comparisons :p

VestigialLlama4
09-01-2015, 10:30 PM
The fact that it is my "opinion"

Your opinion, because it is not a fact, can be disputed, refuted and dismissed.


I am not ashamed of my opinion and you trying to pigeonhole me into being some sort of inconsiderate a-hole won't change that.

You are the one who's pigeonholing yourself. The least you can do is apologize, I've said some inconsiderate things here myself and I've apologized.


It's my opinion that Arno was not written well (compared to Ezio) in his relationship with Elise, the fact that (admittedly one of) the scriptwriters turned out to be gay raised my eyebrow.

Why the hell should that even be your concern? What right did you have to intrude on the privacy of one of the creators of AC, a co-writer of AC2 and Brotherhood I might add?

D.I.D.
09-01-2015, 10:34 PM
The fact that it is my "opinion" that the story of Unity has a main protagonist who in my "opinion" is unsuccessful with the opposite gender compared to the earlier protagonist (Ezio), in my "opinion" it was a coincidence when I subsequently heard the story writer was a gay man.

The fact that it appears that the scriptwriter was one of many may be, I didn't know. Nor did I say Arno story with Elise was terrible BECAUSE the scriptwriter was gay. Someones sexuality should not determine their script writing ability. I am not ashamed of my opinion and you trying to pigeonhole me into being some sort of inconsiderate a-hole won't change that.

Don't be coy! You didn't mention his sexuality for no reason - you said it to say that he was out of his element. There's nothing wrong with pointing out that a person is gay, and there are circumstances where a writer is unable to empathise with the situation of their character and gets it wrong as a result. The problem here is that you were flat-out wrong by the yardstick you set for yourself, i.e. Ezio. He's not just one of Ezio's writers but the lead writer of Brotherhood, the game with Ezio at his peak of confidence.

You're wrong, and you're too stubborn to say that you're wrong, and now you're playing the victim. I've heard it said that a real man owns his mistakes ;)

The whole premise of your initial post was obnoxious beyond belief, all "You kiddies might not know this, but when you become a true connoisseur of the ladies...". Son.

SixKeys
09-02-2015, 12:31 AM
The fact that it is my "opinion" that the story of Unity has a main protagonist who in my "opinion" is unsuccessful with the opposite gender compared to the earlier protagonist (Ezio), in my "opinion" it was a coincidence when I subsequently heard the story writer was a gay man.


Why the scare quotes around "opinion"? Are you being sarcastic? Are you saying it is not, in fact, your opinion but an "opinion"?

strigoi1958
09-02-2015, 02:38 AM
This thread is going OT and will end up locked...

Perhaps we can all agree that D.I.D. has rightly pointed out that ACB proves that Arno's Story is in no way attributable to the writers sexuality... and move on...

Mr.Black24
09-02-2015, 04:22 AM
Alright now, you dropped the soap, now I'm going in dry.....


The fact that it appears that the scriptwriter was one of many may be, I didn't know. Nor did I say Arno story with Elise was terrible BECAUSE the scriptwriter was gay. Someones sexuality should not determine their script writing ability.

Yet you said this ****ing crap VVVV:


If someone tells me that I might not be the best at writing gay relationship stories between men, I will not be deeply hurt. Why can a gay mans' ability to write heterosexual scripts not be criticized? Because the fact that the man is gay shouldn't ****ing matter you ****ard!


The fact that it is my "opinion" that the story of Unity has a main protagonist who in my "opinion" is unsuccessful with the opposite gender compared to the earlier protagonist (Ezio), in my "opinion" it was a coincidence when I subsequently heard the story writer was a gay man.

the fact that the man is gay shouldn't ****ing matter you ****ard!



It's my opinion that Arno was not written well (compared to Ezio) in his relationship with Elise, the fact that (admittedly one of) the scriptwriters turned out to be gay raised my eyebrow. You are literally saying this in a different tone "Ahhh so thats why the love story sucks, a gay man wrote it!" Not as a writer, but the fact that he is gay. That is exactly what you said. You are condemning him on the fact that, as not a writer, but a gay person, that he cannot write. Not on his ability, but on his sexual orientation.

Thats like saying if a business is going down, and you look to see why, and go "Oh its because the CEO is a woman!" Not the fact that it is well based on her own ability, but the gender.....

**** you!



Edit: Do people instantly rise above all forms of criticism when they come out of the closet? Do people have to be referred to as Mr. soso just because they are gay?

I don't ever remember anyone referring to Roger Craig Smith as Mr. Smith? Why so up in arms? Because your trying to pass your appalling spew as a legitimate "opinion" .


Seriously leave now.

Locopells
09-02-2015, 01:01 PM
This thread is going OT and will end up locked...

Perhaps we can all agree that D.I.D. has rightly pointed out that ACB proves that Arno's Story is in no way attributable to the writers sexuality... and move on...

I think this would be the best...

GunnerGalactico
09-02-2015, 01:18 PM
A writer being told he cannot write heterosexual relationships because of his sexual orientation. This place hits a new low every time. :confused:

EmptyCrustacean
09-02-2015, 01:50 PM
Wow, have you guys picked a time to get upset about bigoted views. I remember being a lone ranger and even being criticised when calling out crap like this...

Anyway, back on topic: I actually really liked the chemistry between Arno and Elise and found it to be quite unique and realistic in terms of how a couple who has grown up together would behave. There was obvious sexual attraction but a bit of a sibling competitiveness as well which I suppose planted the seeds for Jacob and Evie.

D.I.D.
09-02-2015, 01:51 PM
A writer being told he cannot write heterosexual relationships because of his sexual orientation. This place hits a new low every time. :confused:

The arrogant dismissal was obviously wrong - "No wonder he can't write male-to-female sexual power, he's gay!" - and the fact that his favourite stabby Lothario was in fact written by the same gay writer is doubly embarrassing. However, with more intellectual grace and substance, it's a sentiment that could have been valid in different circumstances. We've all seen white writers creating appallingly misfired takes on non-white personalities, writers with no understanding of mental illness creating the most insulting "crazy" characters, heterosexual writers creating cringeworthy gay characters, cis writers creating awful trans characters.

I'm not saying this to tell you something you already know, so much as for his benefit if he's still reading. It might seem like we're giving this blanket "NO", which serves only to reinforce his view that heterosexual men like himself are somehow being victimised by a progressive Mafia.

Jessigirl2013
09-02-2015, 02:14 PM
This is a good topic if the argument continues it would probably get locked....



Back on topic.
I think in the Dead Kings DLC he didn't really have any personality IMO.

GunnerGalactico
09-02-2015, 03:10 PM
The arrogant dismissal was obviously wrong - "No wonder he can't write male-to-female sexual power, he's gay!" - and the fact that his favourite stabby Lothario was in fact written by the same gay writer is doubly embarrassing. However, with more intellectual grace and substance, it's a sentiment that could have been valid in different circumstances. We've all seen white writers creating appallingly misfired takes on non-white personalities, writers with no understanding of mental illness creating the most insulting "crazy" characters, heterosexual writers creating cringeworthy gay characters, cis writers creating awful trans characters.

I'm not saying this to tell you something you already know, so much as for his benefit if he's still reading. It might seem like we're giving this blanket "NO", which serves only to reinforce his view that heterosexual men like himself are somehow being victimised by a progressive Mafia.


I hear what you are saying. In his case, the things that he is pointing out are of no relevance to Arno's personality. He says that Arno does not have any panache with the ladies just as Ezio had, when in fact the only woman Arno was ever interested in was Elise. Then he says Arno's relationship with Elise was badly written and when he found out the writer was gay, it raised an eyebrow for him- like 'Hmmmm... No wonder it was so terribly written". Then plays possum when people point that out. I wonder if he had his foot in his mouth when he typed those posts.

Fatal-Feit
09-02-2015, 04:13 PM
Thread is going to get locked soon, so I might as well get my opinion in while the gates are open.

No offence, but I feel like OP dropped any fair description for Arno due to a bias agenda.

'Arno was a character who struggled the imprisonment of love. He conveyed characteristics of a man who lost his life and became conflicted as the world around him shaped quicker than he could rationalize. His's story shows that when you believe you've lost your meaning in life, keep moving forward, because the world won't pause itself. Conflicts will continue, war will rage on, and more people will die. Arno represents a character who could have been any of us. A human who can be badly wounded by a loss, is considered a nobody by many, and believes himself to be weak, but has unbelievable potential which only others could see. He's talented, he's clever, and was able to rid the Templars pulling the strings during the French Revolution. The lesson from his story is that sometimes life throws a curve ball, and we don't see a future for ourselves. Sometimes we're blinded by our own obsessions and abandon the person our family and friends once love and respect. But there will always be light, a future for ourselves. No one is a nobody, and despite your feelings about how unfair life as is, the world isn't going to stop, it's not going to wait for you to finish weeping. And our obsessions, or in Arno's case, Elise, isn't going to stop and hold his hand forever.'

I actually enjoyed writing that. Again, no offense to you OP, but I feel like writing another one for every character.

But moving on...


What do you guys think? What could have made Arno better??

Besides a lengthier story, nothing will. Arno is a hit or miss protagonist because he wasn't written to share any characteristics of a hero like before. He's a protagonist that's representative of the twisted reality he was born into. A Silent Hill-esque character, if you will. While Edward was an anti-hero, he was often portrayed as a good person whereas Arno is shown to be the opposite, as he's often scolded or lectured. We never actually see Edward killing innocent people in cold blood, but Arno easily victimized a portion of Versailles civilians when he went back to Versailles and got drunk. --To which he reflects on. Arno was written to inherit the traits of an anti-hero who's redeemable quality is how much you value the message of his story. Personally, I think lengthening the narrative would help the story overall, as it offers more development for the side characters, but Arno's character would still very much be a hit or miss, as more cut-scenes and dialogue won't flesh out his character anymore than what the current game has.

I disagree with your description of Arno, because I actually feel he's the most human and relatable of them all. Any of us could have easily been Arno. Since he was young, he was abandoned by his mother, and soon after, his father was murdered. --To which, he felt guilty of. Arno grew up in damnation, so his view of the world was of one that's not worth living in. This is why he's not phased by others' deaths (except Elise's) and often resorts to sarcasm or dark humor in times of stress. Arno's showcases strong symptoms of real life disorder from abandonment, of someone who's already rejected the world, as he felt it had rejected him. Elise is his sole purpose in life, not because he wants to get laid, but because he believes she's the only one left with value in a world he discarded. In fact, Elise could have also been anyone else. A man or whatever. What Arno needed was someone to fill the void he was left with, and Elise was there to do it. BTW, romance and hormones are a product of love, but not what love is. They're separate things.

But yeah, from the discussions and debates I've had with many people regarding Unity, there seems to be 2 groups here.

1. Someone who hasn't been in Arno's shoes, so he or she finds him to be dull and the story to feel lacking.

2. Someone who has been in Arno's shoes, so he or she finds him to be very realistic and relatable, with the story being a good representation of the struggle the narrative conveys.

Personally, I don't get that ''typical unrealistic hollywood hero'' description because it'd describe the past protagonists, as well. i.e - Altair is your usual edgy/broody elite soldier you would normally find in a manga or anime (heck, I'd argue he's more 2 dimensional than Ezio), and Ezio portrays all of the traits of a James Bond archetype. --Which is the most common archetype in hollywood films. Arno, on the other hand, doesn't really fit into any category I can think of. And in regards to your feelings of Arno being unrelatable, I've got to wholeheartedly disagree with that because ^.

strigoi1958
09-02-2015, 05:26 PM
Anyway, back on topic: I actually really liked the chemistry between Arno and Elise and found it to be quite unique and realistic in terms of how a couple who has grown up together would behave. There was obvious sexual attraction but a bit of a sibling competitiveness as well which I suppose planted the seeds for Jacob and Evie.

If the story had been less disjointed and had focused more on the chemistry (and had a different ending) it would have made a huge difference to how satisfied a lot of people felt after finishing the game.

I think ever since Ezio and his interactions with women especially Sofia ... these small dynamic exchanges have made me more invested in the character... perhaps that was missing in Unity and as such I couldn't really "care" if Arno lived or died.

I hope you're right about competitiveness and the relationship between the twins is used to its fullest.

RVSage
09-02-2015, 05:47 PM
Gosh, I started this as an constructive discussion. And I feel sad this thread has gone this way. But I have to say gold31415 went over the board. Again I quote "never drag personal things in to a game discussion". It does not make sense. If the admins want to close, by all means they should.

Mr.Black24
09-02-2015, 07:34 PM
Thread is going to get locked soon, so I might as well get my opinion in while the gates are open.

No offence, but I feel like OP dropped any fair description for Arno due to a bias agenda.

'Arno was a character who struggled the imprisonment of love. He conveyed characteristics of a man who lost his life and became conflicted as the world around him shaped quicker than he could rationalize. His's story shows that when you believe you've lost your meaning in life, keep moving forward, because the world won't pause itself. Conflicts will continue, war will rage on, and more people will die. Arno represents a character who could have been any of us. A human who can be badly wounded by a loss, is considered a nobody by many, and believes himself to be weak, but has unbelievable potential which only others could see. He's talented, he's clever, and was able to rid the Templars pulling the strings during the French Revolution. The lesson from his story is that sometimes life throws a curve ball, and we don't see a future for ourselves. Sometimes we're blinded by our own obsessions and abandon the person our family and friends once love and respect. But there will always be light, a future for ourselves. No one is a nobody, and despite your feelings about how unfair life as is, the world isn't going to stop, it's not going to wait for you to finish weeping. And our obsessions, or in Arno's case, Elise, isn't going to stop and hold his hand forever.'

I actually enjoyed writing that. Again, no offense to you OP, but I feel like writing another one for every character.

But moving on...



Besides a lengthier story, nothing will. Arno is a hit or miss protagonist because he wasn't written to share any characteristics of a hero like before. He's a protagonist that's representative of the twisted reality he was born into. A Silent Hill-esque character, if you will. While Edward was an anti-hero, he was often portrayed as a good person whereas Arno is shown to be the opposite, as he's often scolded or lectured. We never actually see Edward killing innocent people in cold blood, but Arno easily victimized a portion of Versailles civilians when he went back to Versailles and got drunk. --To which he reflects on. Arno was written to inherit the traits of an anti-hero who's redeemable quality is how much you value the message of his story. Personally, I think lengthening the narrative would help the story overall, as it offers more development for the side characters, but Arno's character would still very much be a hit or miss, as more cut-scenes and dialogue won't flesh out his character anymore than what the current game has.

I disagree with your description of Arno, because I actually feel he's the most human and relatable of them all. Any of us could have easily been Arno. Since he was young, he was abandoned by his mother, and soon after, his father was murdered. --To which, he felt guilty of. Arno grew up in damnation, so his view of the world was of one that's not worth living in. This is why he's not phased by others' deaths (except Elise's) and often resorts to sarcasm or dark humor in times of stress. Arno's showcases strong symptoms of real life disorder from abandonment, of someone who's already rejected the world, as he felt it had rejected him. Elise is his sole purpose in life, not because he wants to get laid, but because he believes she's the only one left with value in a world he discarded. In fact, Elise could have also been anyone else. A man or whatever. What Arno needed was someone to fill the void he was left with, and Elise was there to do it. BTW, romance and hormones are a product of love, but not what love is. They're separate things.

But yeah, from the discussions and debates I've had with many people regarding Unity, there seems to be 2 groups here.

1. Someone who hasn't been in Arno's shoes, so he or she finds him to be dull and the story to feel lacking.

2. Someone who has been in Arno's shoes, so he or she finds him to be very realistic and relatable, with the story being a good representation of the struggle the narrative conveys.

Personally, I don't get that ''typical unrealistic hollywood hero'' description because it'd describe the past protagonists, as well. i.e - Altair is your usual edgy/broody elite soldier you would normally find in a manga or anime (heck, I'd argue he's more 2 dimensional than Ezio), and Ezio portrays all of the traits of a James Bond archetype. --Which is the most common archetype in hollywood films. Arno, on the other hand, doesn't really fit into any category I can think of. And in regards to your feelings of Arno being unrelatable, I've got to wholeheartedly disagree with that because ^.

If this post was made out of pure gold, we all be rich for life. I could not have said this better myself! I love this!

If there was one thing that I wish that could have been added is dialogue on how Arno and Elise view each Order. We hear in the books and the letters that they see their differences in their respective Order and their opinions on it, but not enough of it and I wish they expanded more on it. Give talks on how it will end up with one another if they survived. Like how Connor and Haytham discussed issues between their struggles, I wanted to see the same but more deeper due to being a couple. The game is called Unity, and sure they work together as Templar and Assassin, but I didn't get much deep discussion on said unity between both Orders by Arno and Elise.

EmptyCrustacean
09-02-2015, 08:16 PM
If this post was made out of pure gold, we all be rich for life. I could not have said this better myself! I love this!

If there was one thing that I wish that could have been added is dialogue on how Arno and Elise view each Order. We hear in the books and the letters that they see their differences in their respective Order and their opinions on it, but not enough of it and I wish they expanded more on it. Give talks on how it will end up with one another if they survived. Like how Connor and Haytham discussed issues between their struggles, I wanted to see the same but more deeper due to being a couple. The game is called Unity, and sure they work together as Templar and Assassin, but I didn't get much deep discussion on said unity between both Orders by Arno and Elise.

That was one of the things that was SORELY lacking. The game told us Elise was a born and bred Templar but never showed it!!!

The devs gave the impression that one of the struggles of Arno and Elise's relationship would be their opposing philosophies. It would have been much better if Elise had survived so we could see them actually dealing with the consequences of choosing different sides.

Xstantin
09-03-2015, 05:44 PM
It would have been much better if Elise had survived so we could see them actually dealing with the consequences of choosing different sides.

I actually kinda expected it thinking that her death everybody and their brother were predicting from the trailer was just too obvious and the writers wouldn't go for it, knowing people would figure it out before even playing :rolleyes:
At the end she did mention it once or twice in her letters lmfao