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Willaguy2010
08-29-2015, 05:55 AM
So I got back from the convention center after playing a couple games and watching people play others. I waited in line for 4 hours to play For Honor, and it was totally worth it! I've been following the game for a while, so it didn't take much time for me to get used to the controls. I was the Defender side, and we barely lost in a very close and fun match. One of the devs was there giving some tips and tricks that really helped, if you guys have any questions feel free to ask!

Edit: if I have time and their booth is still there, I will play it again! I would like to put to test the ideas that people have presented, besides the fact that it was very fun!

Altair_Snake
08-29-2015, 07:54 AM
How do we perform the deflections? They're those parries where you bind swords for a momment, then shrug the opponent's away, kinda sliding the blades. Like this one:

https://j.gifs.com/yojP8d.gif

Any specific input for it?

Willaguy2010
08-29-2015, 08:45 AM
How do we perform the deflections? They're those parries where you bind swords for a momment, then shrug the opponent's away, kinda sliding the blades. Like this one:

https://j.gifs.com/yojP8d.gif

Any specific input for it?

The controls and developers certainly made no mention of deflecting, the tutorial didn't either. I did notice that sometimes when you block it resembles that animation demonstrated in the gif. The most severe blocking, the ones that were cutting it close and visceral, were when you were low on health or you are blocking an attack that has landed previously. For example, if I were to attack someone on the right side, and two hits went through but then they decided to start blocking that side there was a much more recoiling look to their character and sparks flew. I assume that this deflecting can occur when your opponent has attacked in a direction that you choose to block, and none of his previous hits went through.

Edit: btw, guard breaking is very useful for disrupting your opponent's attacks and I killed several people by guard breaking then quickly light attacking twice. Also, if you double tap the guard block button(square) twice, and your opponent was near a ledge you could knock him off, killing him. I did this on a tutorial bot after one of the devs told me I could do it.

Altair_Snake
08-29-2015, 05:45 PM
The controls and developers certainly made no mention of deflecting, the tutorial didn't either. I did notice that sometimes when you block it resembles that animation demonstrated in the gif. The most severe blocking, the ones that were cutting it close and visceral, were when you were low on health or you are blocking an attack that has landed previously. For example, if I were to attack someone on the right side, and two hits went through but then they decided to start blocking that side there was a much more recoiling look to their character and sparks flew. I assume that this deflecting can occur when your opponent has attacked in a direction that you choose to block, and none of his previous hits went through.

Edit: btw, guard breaking is very useful for disrupting your opponent's attacks and I killed several people by guard breaking then quickly light attacking twice. Also, if you double tap the guard block button(square) twice, and your opponent was near a ledge you could knock him off, killing him. I did this on a tutorial bot after one of the devs told me I could do it.
Considering previous footage, this doesn't seem to be the cause. But thanks for joining the club of trying to solve this mystery. :o

We were on top of guard breaks followed by two fast attacks. It really seems like a good strategy against opponents on the defensive. Nice to see some further confirmation of it.

As for the double-tap, did it result in the kick, or the shoulder bash?

And thanks for making yourself available, man.

Willaguy2010
08-30-2015, 12:27 AM
Considering previous footage, this doesn't seem to be the cause. But thanks for joining the club of trying to solve this mystery. :o

We were on top of guard breaks followed by two fast attacks. It really seems like a good strategy against opponents on the defensive. Nice to see some further confirmation of it.

As for the double-tap, did it result in the kick, or the shoulder bash?

And thanks for making yourself available, man.

No matter how many times you tapped the button it would only shoulder bash if they weren't close enough to the edge, it would only kick them off if they were very close to falling off and you double tapped it.

Dead1y-Derri
08-30-2015, 02:57 AM
Basically you perform a deflection by attack at the exact same time as your opponent. @Willaguy2010. I assume the tutorial had you start by attacking a dummy, then a couple of bots, then showed you how to guard break and then finally showed you how to capture zones? If so then you've played the same demo I did at Gamescom.

The sword will glow kind of when the window of opportunity appears but it wasn't in the demo, one of the devs showed me and I spent most of the demo trying to do it. Its diffiuclt at the timing and window of opportunity to do it successfully is small.

Willaguy2010
08-30-2015, 04:06 AM
Basically you perform a deflection by attack at the exact same time as your opponent. @Willaguy2010. I assume the tutorial had you start by attacking a dummy, then a couple of bots, then showed you how to guard break and then finally showed you how to capture zones? If so then you've played the same demo I did at Gamescom.

The sword will glow kind of when the window of opportunity appears but it wasn't in the demo, one of the devs showed me and I spent most of the demo trying to do it. Its diffiuclt at the timing and window of opportunity to do it successfully is small.

Yes it was the same demo, I'll try to ask the dev at the PAX booth how to successfully deflect. Seems like it would be useful as people attacking at the same time was an issue.(I assume it was for your demo as well)

Dead1y-Derri
08-30-2015, 04:35 AM
Yes it was the same demo, I'll try to ask the dev at the PAX booth how to successfully deflect. Seems like it would be useful as people attacking at the same time was an issue.(I assume it was for your demo as well)

The sword does glow a little when the window of opportunity is there. I did manage to do it once I think when playing at Gamescom.

Generally I never had that issue because my tactic was to let them strike first and I'd doge that strike and then come in with my own. Or I'd over use guard break but that's not a good strategy as it does leave you open for attack and you've got to get close.

One thing I never managed to do was throw someone off a ledge, I so wish I could have done that....

Altair_Snake
08-30-2015, 06:59 AM
No matter how many times you tapped the button it would only shoulder bash if they weren't close enough to the edge, it would only kick them off if they were very close to falling off and you double tapped it.
Hmmm... that sounds weird. I don't think there is any problem, though. Thanks.


Basically you perform a deflection by attack at the exact same time as your opponent. @Willaguy2010. I assume the tutorial had you start by attacking a dummy, then a couple of bots, then showed you how to guard break and then finally showed you how to capture zones? If so then you've played the same demo I did at Gamescom.

The sword will glow kind of when the window of opportunity appears but it wasn't in the demo, one of the devs showed me and I spent most of the demo trying to do it. Its diffiuclt at the timing and window of opportunity to do it successfully is small.
Same time as the opponent's attack connects (or same time as he throws the attack)? I'm assuming it's when it connects. I also assume you gotta be at the propper propper matching stance for the deflection to work.

The deflection you mean?

Were these deflection instructions in the tutorial?

And if you guys can confirm this stuff by asking the devs, please do! :o

And thanks a lot for this info, guys. It makes a lot of sense. I really can't think of a better way for the deflections to work. If you do it early, you get wacked.


Yes it was the same demo, I'll try to ask the dev at the PAX booth how to successfully deflect. Seems like it would be useful as people attacking at the same time was an issue.(I assume it was for your demo as well)
How so?

Willaguy2010
08-30-2015, 07:57 AM
Hmmm... that sounds weird. I don't think there is any problem, though. Thanks.


Same time as the opponent's attack connects (or same time as he throws the attack)? I'm assuming it's when it connects. I also assume you gotta be at the propper propper matching stance for the deflection to work.

The deflection you mean?

Were these deflection instructions in the tutorial?

And if you guys can confirm this stuff by asking the devs, please do! :o

And thanks a lot for this info, guys. It makes a lot of sense. I really can't think of a better way for the deflections to work. If you do it early, you get wacked.


How so?

I'll definately ask the devs and I'll try it myself. As for the simultaneous attacking, more often than not opponents would want to be the one attacking first, because it is quite difficult to do anything offensive while trying to defend a barrage of attacks. Therefore opponents would often swing as soon as they got close enough to hit. It didn't matter if these attacks were exactly simultaneous or not, if they were initiated within a few milliseconds of each other the length of the sword would reach and both players would get damaged. It was easy to get used to not attacking first and try to guard break while the enemy is attacking. Doesn't seem like a major problem once people have had enough time to play.

Edit: As for the kicking off the ledge, it seems like it wasn't a feature that was completely and fully developed or tested to perfection. It was a bit difficult to do, however there wasnt a problem with the animation or anything to suggest that it was completely unfinished.

Dead1y-Derri
08-30-2015, 10:47 AM
Same time as the opponent's attack connects (or same time as he throws the attack)? I'm assuming it's when it connects. I also assume you gotta be at the propper propper matching stance for the deflection to work.

The deflection you mean?

Were these deflection instructions in the tutorial?

And if you guys can confirm this stuff by asking the devs, please do! :o

And thanks a lot for this info, guys. It makes a lot of sense. I really can't think of a better way for the deflections to work. If you do it early, you get wacked.


How so?

Yes you have to be in the proper stance and then attack just as your opponent is attacking in order to parry your opponent like in the gif. above.

Altair_Snake
08-30-2015, 06:10 PM
Thanks, bruh!


It was easy to get used to not attacking first and try to guard break while the enemy is attacking.
Did you pull that off? I was under the impression that guard breaks would simply fail if the enemy is attacking you, even if the guard break connects much sooner than the attack. In this case the guard break simply whiffs. It seems fair to me. Other games have used similar mechanics.

Willaguy2010
08-30-2015, 06:15 PM
Thanks, bruh!


Did you pull that off? I was under the impression that guard breaks would simply fail if the enemy is attacking you, even if the guard break connects much sooner than the attack. In this case the guard break simply whiffs. It seems fair to me. Other games have used similar mechanics.

To be more specific you would want to wait after he tries landing a hit, but I meant just in his series of attacks. And yes it won't work if you do it in the middle of his attack.

MisterWillow
08-30-2015, 10:37 PM
Yes you have to be in the proper stance and then attack just as your opponent is attacking in order to parry your opponent like in the gif. above.

I don't want to argue with you, especially since you've played it (and spoken to the devs) and I have not, but that doesn't make sense. If two opponents are attacking in the same stance, with the same attack, at the same time, how does the game decide who parries who? Wouldn't there be just as much a chance for you to be parried instead of your opponent, despite your every intention to parry them?

Also, there was video from Gamescom of this scenario happening, and the swords just bounced off each other (or both opponents being hit) without a parry. (taken from HERE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ed_8SaN4lyQ) at 4:35)

https://j.gifs.com/yAqZqG.gif

Dead1y-Derri
08-30-2015, 11:17 PM
I don't want to argue with you, especially since you've played it (and spoken to the devs) and I have not, but that doesn't make sense. If two opponents are attacking in the same stance, with the same attack, at the same time, how does the game decide who parries who? Wouldn't there be just as much a chance for you to be parried instead of your opponent, despite your every intention to parry them?

Also, there was video from Gamescom of this scenario happening, and the swords just bounced off each other (or both opponents being hit) without a parry. (taken from HERE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ed_8SaN4lyQ) at 4:35)

https://j.gifs.com/yAqZqG.gif

Well I could be wrong, I can openly admit that as I was at a busy booth at the time and a lot happened in that day so I could be remembering it wrong.

When the dev showed me it was during the tutorial, as I had done the tutorial 4 times, he showed me the parry which wasn't actually in the tutorial I played but because I had done it so often he thought he'd show me a new move.

The dev who showed me at the time was in the attack stance but he might not have been actually blocking in the same direction but it did take him twice to do it. All I can remember very clearly was him saying attack just after your opponent attacks and your sword will glow when the window of opportunity is about but that window is so small I couldn't do it in the demo and I think I did it once in the battlefield.

I don't know if the above was a parry or not, while it did look similar, its too fast to tell. I'm pretty sure when it was demonstrated to me is that you locked swords for a second and the opponent was pushed back a little, whether that left him open to further attack is questionable as like I said I never managed to do it in the demo and in the heat of battle I wasn't really thinking.

I think what the confusion here is that people think a parry is blocking then attacking but that according to most definitions I've read online isn't actually what it would appear to be. A parry is a simple block or deflection of an incoming attack that can lead your opponent to be vulnerable but not always.

I'll see what I can dig up, I'll chat to some of the others who I know played the game at Gamescom.

MisterWillow
08-31-2015, 02:40 AM
Well I could be wrong, I can openly admit that as I was at a busy booth at the time and a lot happened in that day so I could be remembering it wrong.

Again, not trying to argue, but I kind-of hope that you are, because that sort of parry system seems a bit inconsistent or finicky, at least from the standpoint of not having played it.


I don't know if the above was a parry or not, while it did look similar, its too fast to tell. I'm pretty sure when it was demonstrated to me is that you locked swords for a second and the opponent was pushed back a little, whether that left him open to further attack is questionable as like I said I never managed to do it in the demo and in the heat of battle I wasn't really thinking.

I think what the confusion here is that people think a parry is blocking then attacking but that according to most definitions I've read online isn't actually what it would appear to be. A parry is a simple block or deflection of an incoming attack that can lead your opponent to be vulnerable but not always.

I'm not sure if there's confusion over what a parry is, or what it looks like, just over how one is performed in game. And I don't think what I posted above was an example of one; it was just an instance of two swords colliding in an uncontrolled way---the opposite of a block or parry, which require control on the part of the defender---which is what I would expect to happen if both opponents attacked in the same direction at the same time.

For comparison

Parry: https://j.gifs.com/yojP8d.gif

Collision: https://j.gifs.com/yAqZqG.gif


The dev who showed me at the time was in the attack stance but he might not have been actually blocking in the same direction but it did take him twice to do it. All I can remember very clearly was him saying attack just after your opponent attacks and your sword will glow when the window of opportunity is about but that window is so small I couldn't do it in the demo and I think I did it once in the battlefield.

Noticed in the 'parry' gif above that the defender's sword does glow red, but only after their swords came into contact, not before, which makes me even more confused. You can even refer back to the video the gif was taken from (around 5:08), if the gif isn't clear enough.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKXujnyvFXI


I'll see what I can dig up, I'll chat to some of the others who I know played the game at Gamescom.

Thanks both to you and Willaguy for asking. :D

Altair_Snake
08-31-2015, 08:41 AM
Willow, if we start to attack at the same time (using attacks of the same speed) our attacks will collide. If I press attack as your attack is about to connect, I parry you. These are very different things. "At the same time" can be a very confusing expression in this case. People might think it means dudes attacking at the same time, whereas it is actually one dude attacking at the end of the other dudes's attack.

The basic idea is that if I try to parry early, my character will try to attack and surely get hit by your incoming attack. So, I gotta try to time it well and lean towards timing it late, as there'd be no consequence for it - my character would be in the middle of the block animation, so my late input wouldn't do anything.

AC1 has a similar logic for the counter attacks. Try it early and you get hit. Try it late and you still block OK. The difference in For Honor is that instead of a parry whiff, the chatarcter will make himself vulnerable by attacking, which prolly looks better, since parry whiffs tend to look over the top.

If this really is the case I'm very happy with the system. I think it will make fast attacks very hard to parry. And this is very important to keep spacing important in the meta-game. Remember that parries allow a guaranteed hit. If dudes could parry fast attacks easily, the result would be spamming guard breaks and parries, only attacking when it's guaranteed, so you could avoid being hit by guaranteed strikes yourself. This would result in fighter's ignoring range. EA MMA suffered from a slightly similar problem.

MisterWillow
08-31-2015, 10:51 AM
Willow, if we start to attack at the same time (using attacks of the same speed) our attacks will collide. If I press attack as your attack is about to connect, I parry you. These are very different things. "At the same time" can be a very confusing expression in this case. People might think it means dudes attacking at the same time, whereas it is actually one dude attacking at the end of the other dudes's attack.

Then why didn't the second collision in the second gif result in a parry? That seems like an unnecessarily small window for you to time an attack, and, again, seems finicky, or like it would be inconsistent.

I still feel like it's timing the stick movement, rather than an attack. It seems like it would be the more intuitive mechanical choice, and if this isn't the case, I would like to know how this happened. (taken from HERE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=40&v=34Yhqo0mx14) at around 0:40)

https://j.gifs.com/mLne3R.gif

You mean to tell me that the defender saw an attack coming from a person he wasn't locked on to, attacked at the instant the blow was about to land to parry, then immediately re-focused on two other opponents (the one he's locked on to and another) and attacked at the instant both their attacks were about to land?

I think it makes more sense that he saw one attack coming, shifted his stance in time with the off-screen blow to parry, then shifted his stance again, since it appeared the other attacks were coming from a different direction, so he had to or get hit, and because of the rapid succession of attacks the shift in stance was in time with the second attack(s) anyway, resulting in that being parried as well.

Maybe he was a dev, so he knew what he was doing, and once more, this is coming from the perspective of someone who hasn't played it, so maybe it will become clear when I get my hands on it, but I honestly find the second scenario more likely.


The basic idea is that if I try to parry early, my character will try to attack and surely get hit by your incoming attack. So, I gotta try to time it well and lean towards timing it late, as there'd be no consequence for it - my character would be in the middle of the block animation, so my late input wouldn't do anything.

AC1 has a similar logic for the counter attacks. Try it early and you get hit. Try it late and you still block OK. The difference in For Honor is that instead of a parry whiff, the chatarcter will make himself vulnerable by attacking, which prolly looks better, since parry whiffs tend to look over the top.

Assassin's creed also had a pretty large window for you to execute a counterattack comparative to the window apparently present in For Honor (again, reference the second collision in the gif). Also, we were talking in another thread about this, and you said you thought poorly of any system requiring exacting timing, citing latency.


Only in very extreme cases not mashing is better. These are cases of trully superb timing, but definitely not the kind of timing I wan in For Honor, since it's a complex melee game with 8 players. Latency matters more than usual and is harder to avoid (compensate) than in shooters. The more the stary from using sharp timing, the better.

The sort of timing that's attested to be required to attack in the same instant a blow is about to land would seem to be an issue, and yet:


If this really is the case I'm very happy with the system

So, which is it?

LonesomeStrider
08-31-2015, 12:33 PM
Thank you for sharing the information!

I would be interested what hints you received from the Dev, while playing the Tutorial.
You already mentioned the 'Hit Guard Break Twice'. Where there any other features or little tricks?

Cheers!

Ituralde

premiumart
08-31-2015, 05:00 PM
Then why didn't the second collision in the second gif result in a parry? That seems like an unnecessarily small window for you to time an attack, and, again, seems finicky, or like it would be inconsistent.

I still feel like it's timing the stick movement, rather than an attack. It seems like it would be the more intuitive mechanical choice, and if this isn't the case, I would like to know how this happened. (taken from HERE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=40&v=34Yhqo0mx14) at around 0:40)

https://j.gifs.com/mLne3R.gif

You mean to tell me that the defender saw an attack coming from a person he wasn't locked on to, attacked at the instant the blow was about to land to parry, then immediately re-focused on two other opponents (the one he's locked on to and another) and attacked at the instant both their attacks were about to land?

I think it makes more sense that he saw one attack coming, shifted his stance in time with the off-screen blow to parry, then shifted his stance again, since it appeared the other attacks were coming from a different direction, so he had to or get hit, and because of the rapid succession of attacks the shift in stance was in time with the second attack(s) anyway, resulting in that being parried as well.

Maybe he was a dev, so he knew what he was doing, and once more, this is coming from the perspective of someone who hasn't played it, so maybe it will become clear when I get my hands on it, but I honestly find the second scenario more likely.



I think i caught a moment in the first gameplay walkthrough that seemed like if you are locked onto a enemy and an attack comes it it automaticly changes to that enemy but that is total speculation.

MisterWillow
08-31-2015, 06:46 PM
I think i caught a moment in the first gameplay walkthrough that seemed like if you are locked onto a enemy and an attack comes it it automaticly changes to that enemy but that is total speculation.

I think it was in the Masterclass that they said if a second opponent comes in, all you need to do is keep your guard stance in their direction and you'll block any attack they throw. The lock-on doesn't switch, though.

There's a moment in the developer walkthrough (https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=155&v=xcy3wr-es7M) that illustrates this (2:35).

https://j.gifs.com/KRBWMk.gif

The person the player attacks is focused on someone else, parries the player's attack, but stays focused on other person; and in the player keeps their guard 'left' to block the second player coming down the stairs while still being focused on the first opponent, then switches.

Altair_Snake
08-31-2015, 07:41 PM
You mean to tell me that the defender saw an attack coming from a person he wasn't locked on to, attacked at the instant the blow was about to land to parry, then immediately re-focused on two other opponents (the one he's locked on to and another) and attacked at the instant both their attacks were about to land?

I think it makes more sense that he saw one attack coming, shifted his stance in time with the off-screen blow to parry, then shifted his stance again, since it appeared the other attacks were coming from a different direction, so he had to or get hit, and because of the rapid succession of attacks the shift in stance was in time with the second attack(s) anyway, resulting in that being parried as well.
I understand that it may seem simply a matter of a well timed stick motion... in the last momment. That hypothesis jumped in my mind, too. But there are a bunch (I'll try to find them if you want) of examples where dudes clearly parry at the last momment and still get crushed, whereas in other cases they parry in the last momment and deflect. This was the Achilles heel in the timed stick hypothesis, even though I was inclined towards it.

Pressing the attack button "solves this problem". It explains the variation we see even when the stick timing seems to be the same.

What might have happened in that gif was that the first parry was probably performed very deliberately. Note that parrying flankers only requires that you point your stance towards them regardless of their attack direction. That leaves you more work memmory to work out the timing of the attack button, to score a deflection.

As for the second (twin) deflection, he might have actually been trying to attack the first flanker, with a high attack, and got somewhat lucky that fit as a deflection to the twin attacks from the other dudes. This second deflection was a lot harder because he used the specific direction (Up). The timing might not have been particularly hard, because it was done as soon as he could move.

And if is really the attack button, I think players will be able to mash it. Why? Because if they do it early, they get hit. Devs may still restrict mashing in this case, though. I'm fine with either way.

I also suspect that this timing will feel like hitting the button right after the attack connects, kinda how the combo kills felt in AC1 - even though the whiffing logic is similar to counter attacks, which did have long timing windows - but not the point of similarity with For Honor.

As for my stance on sharp timing when latency is involved... Initially I thought the stuff would be very circumstantial. But then, largely with your help, I've simplified my hypothesis, aside from the need of an input. I was then already settled in my expectations regarding having an input involved. This input must have timing and it can't be easy. The part about which I'm happy is not that the button press must have strict timing. I merely accept that. That part that pleases me is that they figured out a way to do this that results in an early whiff but doesn't punish a late input: the attack. It also doesn't require an extra button, btw, which helps us to keep a our fingers in the sticks at all times, during fights (and doesn't require us to press L2 + L1 at the same time, which is uncomfortable for my disabled hand :p).

This scheme actually mitigates the latency issue, because players can lean towards a low risk approach in which they still block if they fail to deflect. And yet, people can't go yolo with it, because early inputs get you hit. I also think that this late-friendly logic favors parrying strong attacks and makes parrying light attacks harder: there is nothing later than a strong attack, but being late to a fast attack will mean being early to a strong attack and getting hit hard. It is important that fast attacks are hard to deflect (maybe the window for deflecting them should be stricter, too). If they're easy to deflect, the spacing will lose most of its importance.

The well timed stick logic (for the Warden at least) wouldn't make fast attacks considerably harder to parry than the strong ones. And people would be able to go yolo with it, fearing neither late not early inputs.

The timed-attack logic will also be more circumstancial than it seems. In Soul Calibur V, players can perform a 1/10s precision kind of parry because of the set ups and because they can lean to a "side" (early or late) safely. I think we will see a similar metagame in For Honor.
____________

Another question to the guys who got to play it and might get another chance to play it and/or talk to the Devs:

It seems we can combine one or two fast attacks into a strong attack in actual combos, that really flow together, without returning to the stance. So, we can go fast-strong. But can we go strong-fast?

I mean (since a long time ago :o) to make a thread about the flow of battle, to understand and guide when and how to attack and defend. This question is important - kinda my blind spot in the matter, right now.

MisterWillow
08-31-2015, 10:06 PM
I understand that it may seem simply a matter of a well timed stick motion... in the last momment. That hypothesis jumped in my mind, too. But there are a bunch (I'll try to find them if you want) of examples where dudes clearly parry at the last momment and still get crushed, whereas in other cases they parry in the last momment and deflect. This was the Achilles heel in the timed stick hypothesis, even though I was inclined towards it.

Please find them.


Pressing the attack button "solves this problem". It explains the variation we see even when the stick timing seems to be the same.

And if is really the attack button, I think players will be able to mash it. Why? Because if they do it early, they get hit. Devs may still restrict mashing in this case, though. I'm fine with either way.

I disagree on both counts. Again this is what happens with anything other than a perfectly-timed attack (ostensible parry).

https://j.gifs.com/yAqZqG.gif

The attacks cancel each other out. In the first hit, the defender does take a bit of damage---nowhere near the amount for a full hit, it's chip damage at most---which is fine I guess, but in the second hit the defender (the player) takes no damage. If a timed attack is indeed the input for a parry, what it invites players to simply spam attacks at one another attempting to parry, rather than using the defensive mechanics as they were intended.

Willaguy2010
09-01-2015, 12:07 AM
So I think I can put an end to this parry discussion. I just got done playing For Honor for a second time about 2 hours ago. I told the dev that this was my second time playing so he said he could teach me some of the advanced stuff, such as parrying. To parry, you need to activate a heavy attack almost as soon as your opponents attack is hitting your blade, you also have to be in the same direction as your opponent, as if you were going to block him.

The dev said it was much harder to parry light attacks, because they were faster, I could only parry a light once. I parried heavy attacks often, although it is difficult to do. Also once you parry an opponent, your sword turns blue(this may be because I was on the Defending team) and while your sword's blue and you attack an opponent but they still block you'll do more damage, you'll also take less damage while your sword is blue. Your sword turns blue after parrying for only a few seconds. Hope this helps!

Edit: The dev also showed me that there is a move list, basically combos. The combos were light attack-light attack-heavy attack, heavy attack-heavy attack, and light attack-up-plus backing up. The light attack-up-plus backing up can only be done while engaged in a dual, and your character basically pull his stomach as far away from his opponent while not moving his feet, and attacks quickly while aiming for his opponents head.

I also got interviewed, not sure what website interviewed me but the video should be up in a few days!

MisterWillow
09-01-2015, 01:31 AM
Huh... Alright then.

Still think it sounds awkward, but maybe it will make more sense playing it, or I'll be able to adjust.

Thanks for getting the information. :D

Willaguy2010
09-01-2015, 01:52 AM
Huh... Alright then.

Still think it sounds awkward, but maybe it will make more sense playing it, or I'll be able to adjust.

Thanks for getting the information. :D

It's not as awkward as it sounds, once you plan on trying to parry your opponent your heavy attack button stops being a heavy attack button in your mind, it becomes a time sensitive button, so your really focused on simply getting the right guard direction and timing just right to parry successfully. Once you do parry it feels so satisfying to see that parry animation, and you know that you're on the offensive now. Sometimes I would just let my opponent come at me and attack first so I could parry and turn things around, very effective especially at PAX because almost nobody knew how to parry, it's not a thing that happens accidentally!

Edit: Also, if you unsuccessfully parry, the game knows what your were trying to do so it doesn't simply do a heavy attack that doesn't land, it does an animation as if your character tries to catch his opponent's sword with his, but misses.

MisterWillow
09-01-2015, 03:59 AM
It's not as awkward as it sounds, once you plan on trying to parry your opponent your heavy attack button stops being a heavy attack button in your mind, it becomes a time sensitive button, so your really focused on simply getting the right guard direction and timing just right to parry successfully.

Still skeptical, but I'll probably remain so until I get to try it out. You're selling it pretty well, though. :)


Edit: Also, if you unsuccessfully parry, the game knows what your were trying to do so it doesn't simply do a heavy attack that doesn't land, it does an animation as if your character tries to catch his opponent's sword with his, but misses.

That's interesting. So, what is happening in here? (specifically the last hit)

https://j.gifs.com/yAqZqG.gif

Because it doesn't look like what you're describing. Would an unsuccessful parry be triggered later than that?

Also, does an unsuccessful parry result in damage to the defender?

Willaguy2010
09-01-2015, 04:11 AM
Still skeptical, but I'll probably remain so until I get to try it out. You're selling it pretty well, though. :)



That's interesting. So, what is happening in here? (specifically the last hit)

https://j.gifs.com/yAqZqG.gif

Because it doesn't look like what you're describing. Would an unsuccessful parry be triggered later than that?

Also, does an unsuccessful parry result in damage to the defender?

In both instances of that gif the player from the gif's perspective is way too early on the heavy attack, the animation of a missed parry happens when you're too late, which is usually what happens if you were to fail a parry at all.

An unsuccessful parry will result in the enemy's attack going through, that is if you don't dodge out of the way, which I'm not sure is possible because missing a parry is almost like a stun state for your character in that it takes control away from the player for a little bit.

MisterWillow
09-01-2015, 05:42 AM
In both instances of that gif the player from the gif's perspective is way too early on the heavy attack, the animation of a missed parry happens when you're too late, which is usually what happens if you were to fail a parry at all.

Wouldn't you just block the attack? Or do you mean that the attacker's weapon came into contact with the defender's in a normal block, and then the defender presses attack?


An unsuccessful parry will result in the enemy's attack going through, that is if you don't dodge out of the way, which I'm not sure is possible because missing a parry is almost like a stun state for your character in that it takes control away from the player for a little bit.

Does the defender take damage at all, or are they just stunned for a moment?

Willaguy2010
09-01-2015, 07:19 AM
Wouldn't you just block the attack? Or do you mean that the attacker's weapon came into contact with the defender's in a normal block, and then the defender presses attack?



Does the defender take damage at all, or are they just stunned for a moment?

If you're late on the parry it doesn't matter if you were blocking the direction the attack came from, you take a risk to push your sword away from your body, if you miss then your open to the attack that you just failed to parry, so you'll take damage from that attack. If the defender simply fails the parry, and somehow the attack doesn't connect on the defender, then no the defender won't take damage, he'll just be stunned for the moment. By the way, the amount of time between too early and too late(that is, the only time you can successfuly parry) is very short, maybe 1 or 2 milliseconds. So although it sounds as if your too late to parry you'd simply block, the game still reads that you tried to parry and activates the missing parry animation. It is a lot harder to describe than actually playing it, so any confusion about this is completely understandable.

MisterWillow
09-01-2015, 08:06 AM
It is a lot harder to describe than actually playing it, so any confusion about this is completely understandable.

Well that's good, 'cause I am very confused, so I'll probably neglect discussing this further until I get to play it. Thanks very much for settling things to the extent you were able, though.

Hopefully they'll announce beta details soon. *fingers crossed*

Altair_Snake
09-01-2015, 09:13 PM
Thanks so much for solving the mistery, Willa!!! And you also informed us of the combos. They're just like what I thought! Except for the backing up part, which I don't think I saw yet, unless they're those backstepping attacks.


If you're late on the parry it doesn't matter if you were blocking the direction the attack came from, you take a risk to push your sword away from your body, if you miss then your open to the attack that you just failed to parry, so you'll take damage from that attack. If the defender simply fails the parry, and somehow the attack doesn't connect on the defender, then no the defender won't take damage, he'll just be stunned for the moment. By the way, the amount of time between too early and too late(that is, the only time you can successfuly parry) is very short, maybe 1 or 2 milliseconds. So although it sounds as if your too late to parry you'd simply block, the game still reads that you tried to parry and activates the missing parry animation. It is a lot harder to describe than actually playing it, so any confusion about this is completely understandable.
It really is confusing. Are you supposed to press heavy attack at the impact? If so, pressing it after the impact couldn't result in a whiff. You'd simply block it. Unless there is a missing animation after the impact, which would be an awkward block, but I don't think we've seen that so far.

So... could it be that you only see the late whiff if the attack misses? There was actually an example of that in one of the gameplay videos.

BTW, I'm glad it is a heavy attack. It makes things even worse for you, if you're early.

Nice to finally learn the meaning of the glowing swords. Thanks for that, too. I hope the glow can be disabled. It's cool to use early on. It's educational, much like most of the HUD is. But once people get used to it, they won't need it. And the game would be more immersive without it.
______________

@Willow

Hey, bruh. I could search the example of well timed blocks being crushed. But now that we have confirmation on the attack button thesis, do you still want it? Totally OK if you do! :D

As for that gif... I discarded two explanations and ended up agreeing with you that it is super weird. It does seem to reward an early input with a clash, even though the player's attack was just beginnig. That is not intuitive. Clashes tend to happen when both attacks end at the same time (in other games).

And in the first clash, when enemy's attack was actually almost ending, he got punished. He lost health and suffered a hit animation (though it actually seems a tad shorter than a clash animation). So, being hit when you're early in your attack execution is good for you. Being hit when you're late at it is bad. Both cases only clash if the attacks are in the same direction, I assume.

Although very counter intuitive, it's not necessarily bad. It actually sounds somewhat realistic. If you're just starting your attack, your weapon is still close to its guard position. So it makes sense that it is gonna work well in your defense. If you're late in your attack, that isn't the case, and you're likely to get hit, even if your weapon can make contact with the enemy's weapon.

The big deal here is that early inputs to parries don't seem like a bad business. This only worries me in regards to fast attack being parried easily, because there is no risk of going early.

Having said that a clash isn't delicious. It's far inferior to an actual parry. It is better than being crushed (by a strong attack). And only a little worse than blocking a fast attack (this little can become a very relevant if your enemy's style is a little faster than yours).

I think once people figure it out we will see lots of clashes as a result of missed parries - a particularly good business against strong attacks, but not so good against fast ones. It still seems a little too good against fast ones, though, imho. But as Willa said, parrying fast attacks seemed very hard. As long as it is, we should be fine. And clashing against fast attacks instead of blocking them is bad for you. Yeah... I think it will be fine. Sorry for the rambling.

Dead1y-Derri
09-01-2015, 09:39 PM
I also asked Emile (SpaceElephant) via twitter about the parry and he did confirm that the way I described the parry, is the way that it works.

So you press L2 and just after the person attacks the window of opportunity to perform the parry comes and you attack, swords then meet and then the attacker is momentarily open for further attacks but can regain control quickly.

MisterWillow
09-01-2015, 10:00 PM
I could search the example of well timed blocks being crushed. But now that we have confirmation on the attack button thesis, do you still want it? Totally OK if you do! :D

Yes, please. Just curious what you're talking about.


And in the first clash, when enemy's attack was actually almost ending, he got punished. He lost health and suffered a hit animation (though it actually seems a tad shorter than a clash animation). So, being hit when you're early in your attack execution is good for you. Being hit when you're late at it is bad. Both cases only clash if the attacks are in the same direction, I assume.

I suspect the reason the defender was late on their attack was because they were recovering from the stagger and barely got the attack off. It's interesting to know that you can be staggered for the first heavy attack and yet have enough time between that and the follow-up to launch an attack of your own. I guess it would make sense, in case you didn't want to block the second heavy attack as well (especially if you're low life and can't afford the chip damage), and wanted to dodge instead, but it makes me wonder if you would be able to sneak a fast attack in that gap.


I also asked Emile (SpaceElephant) via twitter about the parry and he did confirm that the way I described the parry, is the way that it works.

So you press L2 and just after the person attacks the window of opportunity to perform the parry comes and you attack, swords then meet and then the attacker is momentarily open for further attacks but can regain control quickly.

You mean R2? Shouldn't you already be in 'guard mode' (have L2 held down)? If not, I'm going to be even more confused...:confused:

Willaguy2010
09-01-2015, 10:26 PM
Yes, please. Just curious what you're talking about.



I suspect the reason the defender was late on their attack was because they were recovering from the stagger and barely got the attack off. It's interesting to know that you can be staggered for the first heavy attack and yet have enough time between that and the follow-up to launch an attack of your own. I guess it would make sense, in case you didn't want to block the second heavy attack as well (especially if you're low life and can't afford the chip damage), and wanted to dodge instead, but it makes me wonder if you would be able to sneak a fast attack in that gap.



You mean R2? Shouldn't you already be in 'guard mode' (have L2 held down)? If not, I'm going to be even more confused...:confused:

What he means is that you hold L2 to engage the duel, then when your window of opportunity to parry is there, you attack(heavy attack), thus initiating a parry.

Dead1y-Derri
09-01-2015, 10:33 PM
What he means is that you hold L2 to engage the duel, then when your window of opportunity to parry is there, you attack(heavy attack), thus initiating a parry.

Yes,

I typed that out on my phone and it failed sending the first time and so I quickly rewrote it and made a typo. I think though you can do it with both light and heavy attacks and I think that can result in how forceful the parry is but I could be wrong, I'm speculating on that part.

MisterWillow
09-01-2015, 10:39 PM
What he means is that you hold L2 to engage the duel, then when your window of opportunity to parry is there, you attack(heavy attack), thus initiating a parry.

Sorry, you're right. I think I read what Derri wrote too fast and thought they meant you press L2 in time with the attack. Read it again, and understand it now. My fault. :o

Dead1y-Derri
09-01-2015, 10:49 PM
Sorry, you're right. I think I read what Derri wrote too fast and thought they meant you press L2 in time with the attack. Read it again, and understand it now. My fault. :o

Actually, I read what I wrote and was confused myself, that was what I was meaning, you hold L2 engage in the dual and then just after the person attacks you attack.

Sorry for the confusion, I should have made my post much clearer.

Willaguy2010
09-02-2015, 12:03 AM
When I aksed the dev how to parry, he said to heavy attack just as your opponent's blade is about to hit yours, I asked if this could be done if my opponent does either heavy or light attacks. He said that while it's harder to parry a light attack, you can still parry both. Then I asked if I wanted to parry a light attack do I use the light attack button to parry, and he said that the heavy attack button is always used for any parries, not the light attack button.

Altair_Snake
09-02-2015, 05:01 AM
Yes, please. Just curious what you're talking about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sp3NKQlJPuo

Just to recover the point: my idea was that timed stick motions were not the way to perform deflections, because I had seen late (well-timed) motions being crushed... and early ones (bad-timing) resulting in deflections.

At 2:58 a late one gets crushed. There are many similar examples where the guy gets hit by a heavy attack and barely has time to parry the follow up. However the timing isn't super strict. 4:26 is the most extreme example I found. That is as late as it gets, pretty much. And there are examples of Oni performing deflections with much earlier guards than that, such as in 3:40 (and other earlier ones).

It is important to consider the Oni, because they have the neutral guard. If you release the stick,so you can flick it at the right moment, we can see it. These examples above are evidence that timed flicks were not the way to perform deflections. Anyways... I'm glad we finally got the answer - well-timed heavy attacks.


it makes me wonder if you would be able to sneak a fast attack in that gap.
I wondered that, too. I was pleased to see that you cannot.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=478&v=UKXujnyvFXI

5:54. And it wasn't the only example I found. I assume the same applies to fast-fast-strong comboes. These last hits can still be parried, though.

The logic of the flow of battle (who can act first after doing what) seems very similar to Soul Calibur's. This makes me very happy and I (still) intend to make a thread about it. I'm gathering references right now.


When I aksed the dev how to parry, he said to heavy attack just as your opponent's blade is about to hit yours, I asked if this could be done if my opponent does either heavy or light attacks. He said that while it's harder to parry a light attack, you can still parry both. Then I asked if I wanted to parry a light attack do I use the light attack button to parry, and he said that the heavy attack button is always used for any parries, not the light attack button.
Awesome! Crystal clear! Thanks again!
____________

And back to the topic of early inputs for deflections resulting in clashes... That gif seemes to be a freak occurence. The same video just above, at 2:30 shows an instance where the early input gets you hit, instead of rsulting in clash. The directions were matching, but maybe it didn't work because it was the Up direction. Maybe the gimmicky clashes only happen if you're matching stance in one of the sides.

I've seen another example where where a clash doesn't happen when the late fighter is using a fast attack. And I think it was to a side. Also... normal clashes apparently don't happen when the attacks are from opposite sides. Even if the fighters land at the same time, both simply get hit - no clash. I had the reference for these two, but lost'em. :nonchalance:

MisterWillow
09-02-2015, 07:27 AM
At 2:58 a late one gets crushed. There are many similar examples where the guy gets hit by a heavy attack and barely has time to parry the follow up. However the timing isn't super strict.

for the convenience of those who don't want to look up times for reference:

https://j.gifs.com/yxglLW.gif

I think the defender shifted his stance to defend upward once he was hit by the first strike---you can see the indicator on his body showing it---in the same way the attacker kept his weapon in the up stance to anticipate a return attack. You can see a while players are in the midst of an animation (either attacking or blocking), indicating, I'm assuming, that no input would be valid, or result in an action, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you can't keep your stance positioned, or reposition it, during the hit/block animation by holding the stick in desired direction, and have the input register the moment the animation is finished.


4:26 is the most extreme example I found. That is as late as it gets, pretty much.

https://j.gifs.com/vqPjod.gif

This one is a bit puzzling. I've been trying to figure out how he locked on to him since the video came out. Maybe the lock on is omni-directional, so regardless of where an opponent is, if they're near enough to be locked on to, and you press the Guard button, you'll lock on to them. As for the block itself, maybe he just guessed what direction it was coming from. I don't know.


And there are examples of Oni performing deflections with much earlier guards than that, such as in 3:40 (and other earlier ones).

https://j.gifs.com/vpd8Xq.gif

The guard direction isn't being registered until the moment of impact. The indicator of where the stick is moves slightly, but the 'left' indicator doesn't light up until the moment just before impact. Examples like this is why I thought it was a timed stick motion.

However... If you go back to the gif above (4:26), at the end he clearly parries long after having his stance upward, which I hadn't noticed before.


I wondered that, too. I was pleased to see that you cannot.

5:54. And it wasn't the only example I found. I assume the same applies to fast-fast-strong comboes. These last hits can still be parried, though.

https://j.gifs.com/vpd8LG.gif

Was unsure for a moment if that was a light or heavy attack, but you're right. Good to know.