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View Full Version : Standing/Crouching camera needs to be reversed.



Deezl-V
08-18-2015, 10:56 PM
Here's the question. As an assassin, what is your most important tool?.........VISION. Without it, you're just a bullseye.

So playing unity, I never really noticed it when I first played. But now that I have played Batman Arkham Knight, then playing unity again today, I realized some bring is REALLY OFF. That being vision of my player (technically me hold on the controller or k&m) and not being able to see around me clearly.

This is a big gripe for me because when I'm standing, I should see around my as I do now (unity) but when I'm crouching, it should NOT zoom in. It should ZOOM OUT. That way I can see my surrounding my better. I'm in a stealth mode.

If you want to see an example, here are 2 vids. One from unity and one from batman.

Unity standing and crouching. (Backwards)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxdqBaWP-U8&feature=youtu.be

Batman standing and crouching (the proper way)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsN3TV_qmQU&feature=youtu.be

Please fix this for Syndicate. I should have more vision when I'm in stealth mode because I should be more dangerous. It takes away from the immersion of being an assassin. Please fix UBISOFT.

How do you guys feel about this? Agree or disagree?

EmptyCrustacean
08-18-2015, 11:11 PM
Of all the problems I had with Unity I can't say that the camera was ever a problem when crouching but then I was more concerned with the messy cover and inconsistent AI detection. That said, haven't gone back to play Unity since Arkham Knight.

pacmanate
08-18-2015, 11:28 PM
Agreed, its so hard to see the surroundings in crouch.

Wolfmeister1010
08-19-2015, 01:38 AM
I disagree. I think it makes sense. It's like MGS. When crouching you are harder to detect and more quiet, but the tradeoff is that you can't see as much of your surroundings. I like it the way it is.

What I don't like it terms of the camera is how it zooms in when you make a contextual kill or a regular assassination. Wish it would just stay still.

Deezl-V
08-19-2015, 02:19 AM
I disagree. I think it makes sense. It's like MGS. When crouching you are harder to detect and more quiet, but the tradeoff is that you can't see as much of your surroundings. I like it the way it is.

What I don't like it terms of the camera is how it zooms in when you make a contextual kill or a regular assassination. Wish it would just stay still.


See, that's my point. If you are harder to detect, then why would the camera zoom in on you taking away your ability to see your surrounds better thus making you more vulnerable to being spotted? It's a contradiction. If you're trying to be undetected, why would you make yourself more vulnerable to being detected by The camera taking away your ability to see around you to avoid your enemies? That's the point.

That's why I showed the batman video. Stealth is much better used when the camera is zoomed out. They don't necessarily need to swap cameras zooms for both of these, but maybe from what the camera is set to now while you're walking, it can just zoom out from that setting when you're crouching. I also remember shadow of mordor doing the same thing, zooming out when crouching.

Wolfmeister1010
08-19-2015, 03:21 AM
See, that's my point. If you are harder to detect, then why would the camera zoom in on you taking away your ability to see your surrounds better thus making you more vulnerable to being spotted? It's a contradiction. If you're trying to be undetected, why would you make yourself more vulnerable to being detected by The camera taking away your ability to see around you to avoid your enemies? That's the point.



You're missing the point. It is a sacrifice to keep the challenge/gameplay balance. Every action should have a consequence. Running gives you more mobility and greater view, but you are detected more easily. While crouching, you are harder to detect and quieter, but you sacrifice mobility and view surroundings.

One way isn't the "right" way. It is all based on the design of the game and what the developers want.

Same thing as how some games give you unlimited sprinting because the character is just that amazing, and other games choose to punish you for trying to sprint forever. It is all part of the design.


So, unfortunately, I don't see this changing at all, because it is obvious that the dev team made this choice for a reason.

Deezl-V
08-19-2015, 04:39 AM
You're missing the point. It is a sacrifice to keep the challenge/gameplay balance. Every action should have a consequence. Running gives you more mobility and greater view, but you are detected more easily. While crouching, you are harder to detect and quieter, but you sacrifice mobility and view surroundings.

One way isn't the "right" way. It is all based on the design of the game and what the developers want.

Same thing as how some games give you unlimited sprinting because the character is just that amazing, and other games choose to punish you for trying to sprint forever. It is all part of the design.


So, unfortunately, I don't see this changing at all, because it is obvious that the dev team made this choice for a reason.



And that's why it's backwards. I know that's what the devs want, and I'm saying it's wrong. I'm also in developing (games and such) and this logic is backwards. You're not thinking this through. You're only contradicting me based on what the devs intended to do. I'm not saying that's not what they want, they very well want that, but that's wrong.

Seriously think this through. I want to be stealthy and not get detected but in crouching, I'm actually more vulnerable to be detected because I can't see anything around me so the closest enemies are actually easier to see me because I'm crouching into spots where I can be detected. That's the point. And the part you're not understanding. I'm actually being detected more when crouching than standing because when I'm standing, I can see my surroundings much better.

Just do this, stand in your room. Now crouch. Did you suddenly lose half of your visuals around you? No. But for a video game to make stealth fun, is to zoom out and see more so the mechanic works that you're less likely to get detected because you can see your enemies around you.

What UBISOFT intended for their design is wrong and contradicts the whole premise of stealth. And the same goes with konami and mgs. That's bass ackwards.

Wolfmeister1010
08-19-2015, 06:10 AM
And that's why it's backwards. I know that's what the devs want, and I'm saying it's wrong. I'm also in developing (games and such) and this logic is backwards. You're not thinking this through. You're only contradicting me based on what the devs intended to do. I'm not saying that's not what they want, they very well want that, but that's wrong.

Seriously think this through. I want to be stealthy and not get detected but in crouching, I'm actually more vulnerable to be detected because I can't see anything around me so the closest enemies are actually easier to see me because I'm crouching into spots where I can be detected. That's the point. And the part you're not understanding. I'm actually being detected more when crouching than standing because when I'm standing, I can see my surroundings much better.

Just do this, stand in your room. Now crouch. Did you suddenly lose half of your visuals around you? No. But for a video game to make stealth fun, is to zoom out and see more so the mechanic works that you're less likely to get detected because you can see your enemies around you.

What UBISOFT intended for their design is wrong and contradicts the whole premise of stealth. And the same goes with konami and mgs. That's bass ackwards.



...You are bringing the ideas of skill, premise and circumstance into this equation for some reason. " I'm actually being detected more when crouching than standing because when I'm standing, I can see my surroundings much better." Realize that your own skill and gameplay style is not representative of the gaming community, thus making anything that conflicts with it "backwards logic".

I am referring to the actual coding in the game, AC Unity, that says that when you are crouched, you are detected at a slower rate. When you are crouched, you have access to more cover options. When you are crouched guards don't react to your footsteps. This is code and AI and scripting.. Not "I get detected more because I personally can't see and end up walking into a group of guards". This is about data.

Even if it wasn't solely about scripting, there are still reasons why crouching itself is beneficial enough to warrant this drawback involving camera. For example, You can walk slowly and avoid being heard, but the entire point of the crouching was to make you silent but move much quicker than walking, Not to mention that crouching literally marks enemies on your map and the direction they are facing so if you still blame getting caught on crouching when THAT is a feature...then...

So, I still am not quite sure what is so "bass ackwards" about it. XD

m4r-k7
08-19-2015, 12:52 PM
^ What he is saying is that the idea of the camera zooming in when crouched is contradicting the whole stealth advantage of crouching, and thus contradicting the stealth pillar of the game in some ways.

When you crouch you want to be stealthy
When you crouch, the camera zooms in, making it harder to be stealthy.
Instead of penalizing us in terms of stealth, they should stop us from being able to draw our primary weapon, or make movement harder (i.e. penalize us in the combat/parkour pillar whilst using crouch).

They should not make stealth harder in crouch mode as it is a gameplay element that was intended to make stealth easier and more effective in the first place.

Wolfmeister1010
08-19-2015, 06:08 PM
But what I was saying is that the pro, benefits, and rewards of crouching outweigh and justify the drawback of the camera. Especially considering there is no other drawback. Otherwise the mechanic could be argued as over-powered.

Which itself is an opinion, obviously. What I am saying is that obviously they went over this and chose this route for a reason, because they felt (and their opinion consensus was) that it works best how it turned out. To say it is "logically backwards" and treat it as if your opinion is fact is a bit insulting to the devs of the multiple games that use this system, who have no doubt spent plenty of time developing, considering, and tweaking the particular system and mechanic.

pacmanate
08-19-2015, 07:14 PM
Guess its personal preference. In AC Unity I found it easier to not be crouched because I could be more stealthy because I could SEE stuff.

I want the batman wide view because it would mean I could actually be stealthy in stealth mode.

Deezl-V
08-19-2015, 10:10 PM
i understand the mechanic, I'm saying its backwards because a game that's based on stealth, is actually not that stealthy. I feel more stealthy in batman or shadow of mordor. Your suggestion that footsteps are heard is wrong. Guards don't hear foot steps. Detection is strictly a visual thing. Meaning if the guard doesn't see you, he doesn't detect you. Foot steps don't mean squat so that logic, if it was suppose to be part of the mechanic, is wrong (video proof below in pt4 and pt5).

Here's a couple of more vids I made to show you that (how I play) I can't utilize the crouch (I don't like any of my hub for a challenge) Since you're questioning my skill level, that's the last thing you need to do because I have more than enough skill to play any game on any level. This isn't about skill, it's about logic to the mechanic. A thing someone can do is use eagle vision, but that's dumb too by having a cool down. I have to constantly crouch and use my eagle vision. Now what kind of gameplay is that? Thats annoying to crouch and use eagle vision over and over again throughout the whole mission.

Pt3: here I'm standing behind something and showing how when I'm standing I can be more stealthy than when I'm crouching because I can see more when in standing which contradicts the whole concept of stealth. Foot steps mean nothing. Look at vids below.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oK6xbKfRXVU&feature=youtu.be (https://youtu.be/oK6xbKfRXVU)

And here's pt4 with footsteps. I actually don't see the enemy in the corner because of the lighting. Didn't notice him. Yet he didn't hear my foot steps. Your "more silent when crouching isn't true," and I walk around him and kill him.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3oxNcueMUY&feature=youtu.be

And pt5. I climb over a wall and drop of the railing and the guard still doesn't hear me. Then I walk to him and kill him. He still didn't hear me. Yet again, the "more silent when crouching" statement isn't true.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otXP7DRmrZ8&feature=youtu.be (https://youtu.be/otXP7DRmrZ8)

It doesn't matter if you are walking or crouching noise isn't part of the mechanic of being detected. It's only visual. Crouching under a short walk or something. That's all. And that's why the mechanics logic is wrong. The game should base a stealth based game on its most important tool, stealth, which is about visuals. That's why batman and mordor both do the zoom out when crouching.

BananaBlighter
08-19-2015, 11:06 PM
Actually it depends on the trousers you're wearing that reduce noise, and because stealth has to be made easy, they only really hear you when running. At the beginning of the game, when I ran up to a guard from behind, or past one, they would regularly turn around. Now that I have the legendary sans-cullottes trousers this doesn't happen. I don't think a guard has ever noticed me while walking behind them, though I know for a fact that kills in stealth mode are far more silent.

Wolfmeister1010
08-20-2015, 03:35 AM
i understand the mechanic, I'm saying its backwards because a game that's based on stealth, is actually not that stealthy. I feel more stealthy in batman or shadow of mordor. Your suggestion that footsteps are heard is wrong. Guards don't hear foot steps. Detection is strictly a visual thing. Meaning if the guard doesn't see you, he doesn't detect you. Foot steps don't mean squat so that logic, if it was suppose to be part of the mechanic, is wrong (video proof below in pt4 and pt5).\

It doesn't matter if you are walking or crouching noise isn't part of the mechanic of being detected. It's only visual. .

That is literally...wrong. What...did you even play Unity?


Sound is literally a part of the customization in the game..the sound your footsteps make, the volume of kills you make...everything done in stealth mode is quieter. That is the point. Stealth mode makes you as quiet as walking but move faster than walking.




Anyway, I replayed ACu a bit today..and the camera BARELY moves closer when walking vs crouching. I really don't understand what the problem is.

Like Pacman said, it is down to personal preference.

Deezl-V
08-20-2015, 05:17 AM
That is literally...wrong. What...did you even play Unity?


Sound is literally a part of the customization in the game..the sound your footsteps make, the volume of kills you make...everything done in stealth mode is quieter. That is the point. Stealth mode makes you as quiet as walking but move faster than walking.




Anyway, I replayed ACu a bit today..and the camera BARELY moves closer when walking vs crouching. I really don't understand what the problem is.

Like Pacman said, it is down to personal preference.

Wtf is wrong with you? Did you even watch the videos I just posted above? I'm walking and nobody hears me. I drop off a ledge and walk toward the guard and he doesn't hear me. Noise does nothing. You may be right that stealth is quieter than walking, but that's the problem, walking isn't loud enough and it's quiet enough that crouching is useless. It's actually hindering you from your surroundings.

And that's my precise posts with you. You don't understand what the problem is. Key words: you don't understand. At least now I can stop trying to convince you that stealth crouching is useless when I can just as well walk and see more.

pacmanate
08-20-2015, 12:36 PM
Well we know that running noise is decreased, but does it affect walking noise?

To be fair, in the videos, Arnos walking is really loud.

Wolfmeister1010
08-20-2015, 02:59 PM
Sigh. Fine, think whatever you want sweetheart. It isn't going to change, lol, so you should try to get used to it before release :)


@Pac-But the point is that while walking is quiet, crouching lets you move much faster than walking and still remain silent.

MnemonicSyntax
08-20-2015, 07:00 PM
Wtf is wrong with you? Did you even watch the videos I just posted above? I'm walking and nobody hears me. I drop off a ledge and walk toward the guard and he doesn't hear me. Noise does nothing. You may be right that stealth is quieter than walking, but that's the problem, walking isn't loud enough and it's quiet enough that crouching is useless. It's actually hindering you from your surroundings.

And that's my precise posts with you. You don't understand what the problem is. Key words: you don't understand. At least now I can stop trying to convince you that stealth crouching is useless when I can just as well walk and see more.

In real life though, your vision is limited when you crouch down. You're shorter and therefore cannot see as much around you. You duck behind a box and it's even more limited because you'd have to peek over it or around it to see anything.

Deezl-V
08-20-2015, 07:12 PM
Sigh. Fine, think whatever you want sweetheart. It isn't going to change, lol, so you should try to get used to it before release :)


@Pac-But the point is that while walking is quiet, crouching lets you move much faster than walking and still remain silent.


I know crouching is faster than walking. I know how the mechanic works. Did I come here and ask how it works? I said how it IS, it's wrong and can be made BETTER. If you play like me, with hub off, then crouching becomes a hinderance not an advantage because of your lack of visual surroundings.


In real life though, your vision is limited when you crouch down. You're shorter and therefore cannot see as much around you. You duck behind a box and it's even more limited because you'd have to peek over it or around it to see anything.



Ya, and in real life you don't have a mini map that shows you where everyone is around you. You also don't have eagle vision to see people through walls and floors. You also don't have the ability to jump off a 200story building and land in a haystack and live. Duh. It's a video game and the mechanic of stealth isn't as good as it COULD BE.

MnemonicSyntax
08-20-2015, 07:28 PM
Ya, and in real life you don't have a mini map that shows you where everyone is around you. You also don't have eagle vision to see people through walls and floors. You also don't have the ability to jump off a 200story building and land in a haystack and live. Duh. It's a video game and the mechanic of stealth isn't as good as it COULD BE.

Right so with all those things you just mentioned... you still have trouble seeing around you?

I play without the hud, don't use Eagle Vision all that much and thanks to Unity, Free Run Down has made falling into a haystack a thing of the past.

Wolfmeister1010
08-20-2015, 07:53 PM
I know crouching is faster than walking. I know how the mechanic works. Did I come here and ask how it works? I said how it IS, it's wrong and can be made BETTER. If you play like me, with hub off, then crouching becomes a hinderance not an advantage because of your lack of visual surroundings.

..

>Plays with No HUD
>Complains about stealth and lack of visual surroundings

Forgot to mention that little bit of information didn't you?


Opinion:

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/APsSKUVKysE/maxresdefault.jpg

You do realize that the UI exists for a reason, correct? So if you choose to turn off the UI that the game's mechanics were designed to support and vice versa, that is your own risk your are taking.



Although even then I am beginning to think you just kinda suck at stealth, because I play without the HUD plenty of the time and do fine with stealth. Staying in cover, avoid running, use eagle vision.

Deezl-V
08-20-2015, 07:56 PM
Right so with all those things you just mentioned... you still have trouble seeing around you?

I play without the hud, don't use Eagle Vision all that much and thanks to Unity, Free Run Down has made falling into a haystack a thing of the past.



Where did I say I have trouble? I said the mechanic is wrong and could be made better by zooming out instead of zooming in. I'm saying this not because it's difficult, I'm saying this so I can have stealth actually feel like stealth. When you're outdoors, you can't see snipers. And if I'm indoors, I have to use eagle vision every second of the time, then where's the fun and immersion? I'm using eagle vision then moving forward, wait for the cool down then repeat. Over and over again. That's not how to make a fun game. And it takes away from the immersion of being stealthy.

Go look at batman or mordor. Those games are way better in stealth all because the camera zooms out when you crouch. And those games are not even focused on stealth. Unity is and it does a very poor job at it by the camera zooming in and taking away your ability to see your surroundings to avoid detection. That's the whole premise of stealth.

Wolfmeister1010
08-20-2015, 07:59 PM
Where did I say I have trouble?

..


Go look at batman or mordor. Those games are way better in stealth all because the camera zooms out when you crouch.


Opinion.




And those games are not even focused on stealth.

ahhahahahaha




Okay, Mr. "I am in game design". Okay

Deezl-V
08-20-2015, 07:59 PM
..

>Plays with No HUD
>Complains about stealth and lack of visual surroundings

Forgot to mention that little bit of information didn't you?


Opinion:

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/APsSKUVKysE/maxresdefault.jpg

You do realize that the UI exists for a reason, correct? So if you choose to turn off the UI that the game's mechanics were designed to support and vice versa, that is your own risk your are taking.



Although even then I am beginning to think you just kinda suck at stealth, because I play without the HUD plenty of the time and do fine with stealth. Staying in cover, avoid running, use eagle vision.

This isn't an issue of skill. I'm not getting detected. I do just fine. I'm mentioning how t could be better, With or without the hub. Since you're having comprehension issues, I'll just stop responding to you until you can get back on topic of how stealth can be made better by the camera simply zooming out.

Wolfmeister1010
08-20-2015, 08:03 PM
. Since you're having comprehension issues, I'll just stop responding to you until you can get back on topic of how stealth can be made better by the camera simply zooming out.



"I'm not talking to you until you start talking about how right my opinion is!"

http://www.stevewiens.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/angry-baby.png


That's fine, I will leave you with this:

Let's be clear, you are suggesting how to make stealth EASIER, not "better". "Better" is an opinion. "Better" is subjective. Obviously stealth is easier when the camera zooms out to the point you can see an entire building filled with guards.

AC is a game about using eagle vision, consulting the UI, planning your route. You can claim all you want that different games with different designs and mechanics do it better, and in that case, just go play those games.


Meanwhile, you bring the "immersion" argument into this? Really? Pretty sure that a camera staying how it is when crouching is more "immersive" than it zooming out to give you a full view of the environment. But then again, immersion is ones own personal opinion. So still not quite sure why you are trying to enforce your own opinion as fact.

Locopells
08-20-2015, 08:10 PM
All right, play nicely people...

MnemonicSyntax
08-21-2015, 03:53 PM
Where did I say I have trouble? I said the mechanic is wrong and could be made better by zooming out instead of zooming in. I'm saying this not because it's difficult, I'm saying this so I can have stealth actually feel like stealth. When you're outdoors, you can't see snipers. And if I'm indoors, I have to use eagle vision every second of the time, then where's the fun and immersion? I'm using eagle vision then moving forward, wait for the cool down then repeat. Over and over again. That's not how to make a fun game. And it takes away from the immersion of being stealthy.

You want the camera to zoom out, while in stealth. Outdoors, I take to the rooftops and I sneak around, coming over the tops of them to take out any nearby snipers and then getting to cover. From there, I survey my surroundings to see if there are others.

Indoors, zooming out wouldn't make any sense. These are generally small rooms and smaller hallways you're taking to cover to. You lean against a wall or doorway and wait until a guard comes by. Use Eagle Vision once if you have to get their location (I don't) and just wait until they come by. Sometimes I get detected, sometimes I don't.

That's the point of stealth. The fear of possibly being detected. Not being able to see everything or all your targets.


Go look at batman or mordor. Those games are way better in stealth all because the camera zooms out when you crouch. And those games are not even focused on stealth. Unity is and it does a very poor job at it by the camera zooming in and taking away your ability to see your surroundings to avoid detection. That's the whole premise of stealth.

I'm very much aware of SoM and Batman. Both are open area games, especially in comparison to Unity.

And again, that's not the premise of stealth. It's not an easy way to see all your surroundings. It's meant to act as a war of attrition, taking out one guy at a time.


Go look at batman or mordor. Those games are way better in stealth all because the camera zooms out when you crouch. And those games are not even focused on stealth.


Unity is and it does a very poor job at it by the camera zooming in and taking away your ability to see your surroundings to avoid detection

Seems like a contradiction in terms then, if Unity is more stealth-centric then perhaps Unity has it right.

You want to talk about a true stealth game? Try Ground Zeroes. No zooming there.

SteelCity999
08-21-2015, 07:10 PM
I know in Unity, the equipment did make a difference even if the sounds I heard didn't change. It was a nice addition just too many options.

One issue with stealth mode, is that so many things are in the environment it takes a lot for the system to be super accurate. Much like parkour. Yeah it's great to climb over everything and hang onto all kinds of stuff but the more things you put in there to make it real, the harder it is to make it work all the time. They could probably do a better job at creating the environment to be a bit more stealth friendly(for the system) in certain areas but its understandably a work in progress.

Wolfmeister1010
08-21-2015, 07:49 PM
You want to talk about a true stealth game? Try Ground Zeroes. No zooming there.

On the contrary, GZ camera zooms in INCREDIBLY close when you are crouched, especially when you are in cover or looking past corners.




Anyway, Op, if you just hate the zooming in because it is annoying in general, that's different. I don't like that that camera zooms in during air assassinations in Syndicate.

Deezl-V
08-22-2015, 03:22 PM
Anyway, Op, if you just hate the zooming in because it is annoying in general, that's different. I don't like that that camera zooms in during air assassinations in Syndicate.

That's what I've been saying from the beginning. But not only is it annoying, it shouldn't be that way. If one uses the mini map, then what's the point in looking at your character while all enemies are marked on the mini map? That's the point. Zooming the camera in and reducing the view of the surroundings for your character, then marking them on the map anyways, then over using eagle vision over and over and over and over again, is not only annoying, but it takes away from the immersion and fun in playing a stealth game.

Instead of using my character to see my surroundings, I'm using my mini map and over using eagle vision. That's what I'm saying is incorrect in making an immersive game. You're forcing players to use an unrealistic, and not fun approach to stealth.

And with Ground Zeros, you get to mark your enemies. If unity used that or even the black flag approach where you can tag enemies, then fine, it would have been ok. But it's the annoying "using a mini map and taking my eyes off the actual game and graphics to follow a 2d flat mini map" and the constant over use of a stupid cool down, non marking eagle vision, over zooming out camera and keep you immersed into the game, situation and graphics.

So Yes, that was my point all along. Why did it take you so long to see that? Lol.

Deezl-V
08-24-2015, 09:08 PM
(Adding more in the hope UBISOFT sees this and considers a zoom out camera instead when crouching)

http://i.imgur.com/KORgef6.jpg

In this pic (from the UBISOFT dev stealth hints video), here is a part in gameplay (but not actually in gameplay) that shows Arno crouched down and the camera has zoomed out. His visuals around him are MUCH better visible and he can avoid getting detected. That's the whole premise of stealth, to avoid detection. I understand that using eagle vision and the mini map are part of the gameplay, but why would UBISOFT want to take your eyes off of the games beautiful visuals and be focused on the 2d mini map? And use eagle vision every second on your path cuz you're too paranoid to get detected? It makes no sense. I mean ubi is STILL giving us the ability to see our enemies in the mini map so it doesn't really matter anyways, but by zooming out, and removing the enemies exact locations on the mini map, the tagging for the mini map can be used with eagle vision and by having the camera zoomed out when crouching so you can see your surroundings better. This way you actually put more skill into the players hands by forcing them to look around and find the best path to avoid detection as opposed to letting them see every enemy on a mini map.

Here I make another video. I'm on a roof top and crouch. Camera is zoomed in. Now I try to see my surroundings. Can't really. I then go on the ledge. Basically I'm still in a crouching position but the camera zooms out and I can see my surroundings perfectly. If the camera could do this zoom out all the time, stealth would feel so much stealthier and fun.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K72vHabuTa8&feature=youtu.be

And just for all the guys that like to question my skill, I have 0 issues with playing stealthy in this game. I know how to play like an assassin. Always getting to the rooftops and surveying the area. I also always prepare and predetermine my escape route. This isn't an issue of skill, but a way to help the game add more fun to the mechanic of stealth by letting the player see his enemies on his own with the controller or k&m as opposed to giving the location of all our enemies on a mini map.

He's a video of the second video I just showed where I just need to assassinate a guy and get out. I already took out all the roof snipers and guards with ease but the chore of doing it is annoying with the camera zooming in.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25pVx0edgpo&feature=youtu.be

Deezl-V
11-13-2015, 03:09 AM
I just wanna bring this thread back up as now that Syndicate is out, it looks like they kinda took what I said (not from me directly but on the same ideas), that stealth is BETTER in ACS than ACU all because they decided to bring back unlimited use of eagle vision (without running), and tagging enemies again. The camera doesn't zoom out like what I was asking, but it doesn't zoom in either as to what was a problem for me. If this was in unity, it would have been an even better game.

Here's a couple of my vids showing how stealth can be done with a great system like this and to the guys saying I don't know how to play a stealthy and questioning my skill.

Thanks Ubisoft for doing this (unlimited use of eagle vision without cool down, tagging enemies and not zooming in when crouching) to the stealth mechanic.

https://youtu.be/4mxBFE08prI - with no mini map (which I prefer)

https://youtu.be/dNHgEiRTDas - with mini map (but I don't look at it, I use it just for my health).

flavorcountry19
11-13-2015, 03:15 AM
(Adding more in the hope UBISOFT sees this and considers a zoom out camera instead when crouching)

http://i.imgur.com/KORgef6.jpg

In this pic (from the UBISOFT dev stealth hints video), here is a part in gameplay (but not actually in gameplay) that shows Arno crouched down and the camera has zoomed out. His visuals around him are MUCH better visible and he can avoid getting detected. That's the whole premise of stealth, to avoid detection. I understand that using eagle vision and the mini map are part of the gameplay, but why would UBISOFT want to take your eyes off of the games beautiful visuals and be focused on the 2d mini map? And use eagle vision every second on your path cuz you're too paranoid to get detected? It makes no sense. I mean ubi is STILL giving us the ability to see our enemies in the mini map so it doesn't really matter anyways, but by zooming out, and removing the enemies exact locations on the mini map, the tagging for the mini map can be used with eagle vision and by having the camera zoomed out when crouching so you can see your surroundings better. This way you actually put more skill into the players hands by forcing them to look around and find the best path to avoid detection as opposed to letting them see every enemy on a mini map.

Here I make another video. I'm on a roof top and crouch. Camera is zoomed in. Now I try to see my surroundings. Can't really. I then go on the ledge. Basically I'm still in a crouching position but the camera zooms out and I can see my surroundings perfectly. If the camera could do this zoom out all the time, stealth would feel so much stealthier and fun.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K72vHabuTa8&feature=youtu.be

And just for all the guys that like to question my skill, I have 0 issues with playing stealthy in this game. I know how to play like an assassin. Always getting to the rooftops and surveying the area. I also always prepare and predetermine my escape route. This isn't an issue of skill, but a way to help the game add more fun to the mechanic of stealth by letting the player see his enemies on his own with the controller or k&m as opposed to giving the location of all our enemies on a mini map.

He's a video of the second video I just showed where I just need to assassinate a guy and get out. I already took out all the roof snipers and guards with ease but the chore of doing it is annoying with the camera zooming in.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25pVx0edgpo&feature=youtu.be

whoa geez! was that last gameplay really from the ps4??? it looked so smooth! i didn't see any drop or anything!

Deezl-V
11-13-2015, 03:36 AM
Yes it's from ps4. All these vids in this thread are from ps4. After the last patch, I bought it again and the patch fixed its frame rate issues. I enjoyed unity, but if it had syndicates stealth updates, which I mentioned above your post, then I would have loved it.

Wolfmeister1010
11-13-2015, 04:23 AM
(Adding more in the hope UBISOFT sees this and considers a zoom out camera instead when crouching)

http://i.imgur.com/KORgef6.jpg

In this pic (from the UBISOFT dev stealth hints video), here is a part in gameplay (but not actually in gameplay) that shows Arno crouched down and the camera has zoomed out. His visuals around him are MUCH better visible and he can avoid getting detected. That's the whole premise of stealth, to avoid detection. I understand that using eagle vision and the mini map are part of the gameplay, but why would UBISOFT want to take your eyes off of the games beautiful visuals and be focused on the 2d mini map? And use eagle vision every second on your path cuz you're too paranoid to get detected? It makes no sense. I mean ubi is STILL giving us the ability to see our enemies in the mini map so it doesn't really matter anyways, but by zooming out, and removing the enemies exact locations on the mini map, the tagging for the mini map can be used with eagle vision and by having the camera zoomed out when crouching so you can see your surroundings better. This way you actually put more skill into the players hands by forcing them to look around and find the best path to avoid detection as opposed to letting them see every enemy on a mini map.



Oh god..that looks so ridiculous, why did we have to bring this back lol


http://s3.amazonaws.com/unitedfrontgaming/files/assassins-creed-screen-3.jpg

Muh "Visibility"


I know I never had any sort of issues with stealth. I play with the minimap off too, and I do just fine. I am sure plenty of others do to.




Still seem bothered about the camera in Syndicate, I see.


It is a stylistic choice. For Unity and for Syndicate. And an opinion on your part. An opinion on my part, as well. Not, by any means, a necessity or any fact. They aren't gonna add a "zoom out" feature, lol. You've no idea how long people been asking for camera tweaks, zooming in, zooming out, ridding of AC4 auto-de-centering camera...what's done is done. Capitalizing "UBISOFT" to get their attention won't change that, lol.

BananaBlighter
11-13-2015, 05:58 PM
I love the camera in Syndicate. Don't know what you mean by it not zooming in, and while I haven't checked if it does this in general, when indoors the camera always zooms at the rights moments, like turning corners and it's something which really adds a nice feel to stealth.

cawatrooper9
11-13-2015, 06:06 PM
That's actually kind of an interesting catch. The one caveat, that I don't think anyone else has mentioned yet though, is this: the "zoomed in camera" in Arkham is unique specifically to when you're just slowly walking, which isn't all that common in the game. Whether you're running, ziplining, or in open combat (as well as in stealth, obviously) you're zoomed out more.

Now, as to why stealth zooms in in Unity- I agree, it does seem counter productive. However, I assume it has to do with the idea that the game wants the stealth experience to feel more intimate, as opposed to the open and free feeling of running across rooftops.

Wolfmeister1010
11-13-2015, 06:46 PM
Now, as to why stealth zooms in in Unity- I agree, it does seem counter productive. However, I assume it has to do with the idea that the game wants the stealth experience to feel more intimate, as opposed to the open and free feeling of running across rooftops.


It's because there needs to be balance in mechanics.



In Unity, by crouching, you move faster, silently, are detected more slowly, can hide behind more objects, and mark enemies on the map.

There needs to be a con. It NEEDS to be counter productive in at least ONE aspect. Something that makes it so that it isn't such an OP "press crouch to win" mechanic.

The camera moves in because that is the balance. You sacrifice some visibility of the environment for drastically improved stealth capabilities and maneuverability.


Same reason why wearing a heavy armor chest piece gives you more health, but makes you louder.

Checks and Balances.

cawatrooper9
11-13-2015, 06:49 PM
It's because there needs to be balance in mechanics.



In Unity, by crouching, you move faster, silently, are detected more slowly, can hide behind more objects, and mark enemies on the map.

There needs to be a con. It NEEDS to be counter productive in at least ONE aspect. Something that makes it so that it isn't such an OP "press crouch to win" mechanic.

The camera moves in because that is the balance. You sacrifice some visibility of the environment for drastically improved stealth capabilities and maneuverability.


Same reason why wearing a heavy armor chest piece gives you more health, but makes you louder.

Checks and Balances.

Sure, and perhaps that's why they did it... but you can't ignore the fact that you also move a lot more slowly when crouched, too... so it's not as if there isn't already a con.

Wolfmeister1010
11-13-2015, 06:52 PM
Sure, and perhaps that's why they did it... but you can't ignore the fact that you also move a lot more slowly when crouched, too... so it's not as if there isn't already a con.

On the contrary, crouching make you move way faster than walking, while making you silent. It adds maneuverability.

You could run of course, but that makes you very loud.

cawatrooper9
11-13-2015, 08:44 PM
On the contrary, crouching make you move way faster than walking, while making you silent. It adds maneuverability.

You could run of course, but that makes you very loud.

Well yeah, but realistically, how often do you think gamers just walk around? There, as you've pointed out, is almost no advantage to it.

Obviously, I was comparing crouching to running.

Wolfmeister1010
11-13-2015, 09:21 PM
Well yeah, but realistically, how often do you think gamers just walk around? There, as you've pointed out, is almost no advantage to it.

Obviously, I was comparing crouching to running.


Oh.

Well, yeah. Crouching means you move slower than running. But running makes you WAYYYY easier to detect, both by sight and by sound.It's a pretty fair tradeoff in my opinion.

cawatrooper9
11-13-2015, 09:28 PM
Oh.

Well, yeah. Crouching means you move slower than running. But running makes you WAYYYY easier to detect, both by sight and by sound.It's a pretty fair tradeoff in my opinion.

Absolutely.

That's my point, basically.

Running=fast
Crouching= stealth

Deezl-V
11-16-2015, 12:30 AM
Ya, I booted this thread again to saying to the devs thanks for making syndicate how it should have been for unity.

Unlimited use of eagle vision until you use the rope launch or using high profile button; tagging enemies in eagle vision and see them through walls again like black flag, auto corner cover like black flag/3, and bringing back the whistle.

So I reiterate, if unity used these, the camera doesn't need to zoom out because now you can use those tactics without excuses. I just didn't like to use the mini map cuz it takes away from the immersion of being stealthy and playing the game. So now I really enjoy syndicate now but these would have made unity SOOOO much better.