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XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 03:02 AM
Hello everybody.

I know this has been brought up some (or many times) before, but I need advice regarding flying against the I-16 in, say, a 109. I've been trying to down one of these little guys in the QMB for awhile now, and it just seems to stick to me like glue. I've been using the 109 F for the most part, because I'm interested in matchups that happened often historically.

Now, I don't hop into the 109 and start yanking on the stick in an attempt to turn with the I-16. As far as I know, I'm using proper tactics for a 109 in general--use of the verticle, keeping speed up, fairly low-g maneuvering, etc. Versus nearly every other plane, this works just fine. But these I-16s climb right with me, for an inordinantly long time. The thing seems to have a sustained climb like no other bird, in spite of its magnificent turning ability.

I'm not particularly interested in whether or not the 109 and the I-16 are modelled correctly. They are as accurate as a tremendous amount of hard work has made them, so I won't harp on the flight models. I'm just looking for a solid set of tactics to use against the I-16 within the game--what to do at the merge, afterwards, etc. I realize that styles and situations vary--but what can I do to at least stay alive, if not actually shoot the thing down? Of particular interest to me is the spiral climb, which I've never understood. Can someone explain it to me, please?

Thanks for any help you can give me.

Wiffle

Yes, and here's to the few
who forgive what you do
and the fewer who don't even care

--Leonard Cohen

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 03:02 AM
Hello everybody.

I know this has been brought up some (or many times) before, but I need advice regarding flying against the I-16 in, say, a 109. I've been trying to down one of these little guys in the QMB for awhile now, and it just seems to stick to me like glue. I've been using the 109 F for the most part, because I'm interested in matchups that happened often historically.

Now, I don't hop into the 109 and start yanking on the stick in an attempt to turn with the I-16. As far as I know, I'm using proper tactics for a 109 in general--use of the verticle, keeping speed up, fairly low-g maneuvering, etc. Versus nearly every other plane, this works just fine. But these I-16s climb right with me, for an inordinantly long time. The thing seems to have a sustained climb like no other bird, in spite of its magnificent turning ability.

I'm not particularly interested in whether or not the 109 and the I-16 are modelled correctly. They are as accurate as a tremendous amount of hard work has made them, so I won't harp on the flight models. I'm just looking for a solid set of tactics to use against the I-16 within the game--what to do at the merge, afterwards, etc. I realize that styles and situations vary--but what can I do to at least stay alive, if not actually shoot the thing down? Of particular interest to me is the spiral climb, which I've never understood. Can someone explain it to me, please?

Thanks for any help you can give me.

Wiffle

Yes, and here's to the few
who forgive what you do
and the fewer who don't even care

--Leonard Cohen

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 03:50 AM
the I-16 is a tuff bird im woundering why the russians didnt just put a faster motor in them instead of going with the yak i mean that thing could turn on a dime

"life moves preaty fast if you dont stop and look around once and a while you could miss it" {Ferris Bueller}

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 04:14 AM
fordfan25 wrote:
- the I-16 is a tuff bird im woundering why the
- russians didnt just put a faster motor in them
- instead of going with the yak i mean that thing
- could turn on a dime
-
- "life moves preaty fast if you dont stop and look
- around once and a while you could miss it" {Ferris
- Bueller}


The Russians needed faster fighters. So, they created I-26 with more powerful engine and better aerodynamic characteristics than I-16. And later....they called it Yak-1. Thus, Yak is improved sequence of I-16 with faster motor as you mentioned. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

------------------------------------
"Heaven Shall Burn...When We Are Gathered"


Message Edited on 10/25/0303:16AM by Flying_Marduk

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 04:16 AM
-- the I-16 is a tuff bird im woundering why the russians
-- didnt just put a faster motor in them instead of going
-- with the yak

They did, starting in 1934. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

That high drag design wouldn't be pushed much faster even with ramjets (yes they tried them) but Yak was fresh new design designed for 1940s.

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 04:19 AM
No I'm sorry they may not have tried the ramjets on I~16 but I know they did on I~153 biplane.

Think of it like why don't they just keep making 486 chips faster and faster instead of a new Pentium design?

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 05:26 AM
its a shame thay couldnt get it to go much faster and still maintane its turn rate.

"life moves preaty fast if you dont stop and look around once and a while you could miss it" {Ferris Bueller}

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 06:12 AM
fordfan25 wrote:
- its a shame thay couldnt get it to go much faster
- and still maintane its turn rate.
-

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif
Do you really think so? Look at the data below.

Yak-1
----------------------------------
Top Speed with installed rockets:
Sea level: 472 km/h
At 4860m: 569km/h
Turn time at 1,000m:
19-20sec
Climb to 5,000m:
5.26-5.7min
Climb in a combat turn: 950 m
Range: 650 km


I-16 Type24
----------------------------------
Top speed:
Sea level: 410 km/h;
At 6,360m: 462 km/h.
Turn time at 1,000m: 17-18 sec.
Climb to 3,000m: 6min.
Service ceiling: 9,700m.
Range: 440 km.


569 km/h is much higher than 462 km/h.
Yak1's climb rate is higher than I-16
Yak1 can fly much farther than I-16. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


------------------------------------
"Heaven Shall Burn...When We Are Gathered"

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 07:11 AM
Back to the original question:

If you are flying against an AI, good luck. The 109E is a good choice against it, the F-2 can kill it, but you have to get very accurate and hit the wings. The F-4 guns are more than a match for it.

I'd rather fly against a human I-16 pilot any day. In QMB, try not to merge with it right away. Climb and climb until you can pull it up high where you have the upper hand. If he fires at you, use a little rudder to stay outside of it's bullet trajectory and keep climbing. Once you get say 1000 to 1500 meters of separation (Very safe) with him under you, you can hammerhead around on him or spiral climb until you can tighten the turn and fall down on his 6.

If you do find yourself low against him you can turn fight if you can drop your speed slow enough and use your flaps. Just dont sustain your turns! I dont recommend doing this online because you become a big fat target for anyone else.

Fighting this bird takes a large amount of discipline, especially when it's flown by the AI. You cant bounce it, and it always seems to turn at the last second when you B&Z it. Not to mention that the AI doesnt overheat, doesnt over-G, and is an exceptional gunner!

I think the damage model on this crate makes it even tougher than the original plane, but I think this is being looked at and should bring the DM back to terms in the next patch. They were exceptional turners in real life, but they were quite fragile, especially the earlier types. The only planes I hate fighting more than the I-16 are those I-153's!

Oh, against a human, pulling negative G's is a great thing to do in the defensive (If you have some air between you and the ground.) Bait him in close, pull a Neg G, split S, hammer the throttle and dive like a brick. They cant follow you in this move... The AI can, but not a human. If you are lucky, he will lose you in the neg G - that's why you must split S immediately! Then just extend and slowly climb again until you have the aforementioned advantage.

Just remember to fight on your terms, not on theirs, unless you enjoy trying to dodge those green laser beams... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/Fehler.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 10:30 AM
WifflePlane wrote:
-
- I know this has been brought up some (or many times)
- before,

It has been brought up recently in this thread:

http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=yxcuh

There were also some tracks posted showing that even ace I-16s can be shot down. Click here for my tracks (http://home.arcor.de/rayluck/sturmovik/plumps-BF109E4-I1624ace.zip).

---------------
http://home.arcor.de/rayluck/sturmovik/stulogo-banner.jpg (http://home.arcor.de/rayluck/sturmovik/)

Kampagne für IL-2 1.2: I-16 - Kampf im Kaukasus (Deutsch) (http://home.arcor.de/rayluck/sturmovik/kampagne.html)

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 01:12 PM
Use your wingman. He will trap the target in a 'circle of death' turning fight. Then BnZ at a tangent to the circle. The AI doesn't fight fair so you shouldn't be obliged to.

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 03:26 PM
Thanks to everyone for their contributions and suggestions. It's good to know that I'm not the only one having trouble with these zippy little birds. I have noticed that I-16s are a whole lot easier to deal with in the campaigns, because I usually have at least a wing-mate after them too.

Regarding the spiral climb: can anyone explain it to me? Thanks again for the help.

Wiffle

Yes, and here's to the few
who forgive what you do
and the fewer who don't even care

--Leonard Cohen

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 07:34 PM
Somebody made a post like this a week or so ago and asked for tracks showing successful fights, using an Emil against
a I-16. I killed my connection, brought up FB and promptly
set up a QMB like that and proceeded to kill the I-16 within 20 seconds after the merge. I have a track of it but nowhere to make it available. I can only email tracks to people. But I don't find I-16s hard to kill, even in the Finnish Mk1 Hurricane. I bagged lots of them in a Finn Campaign I flew once. If you can get 'em with .303 BB guns, you can get 'em with anything. Also Hurri is slower and less manueverable than Emils are.


"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin - 1755



Message Edited on 10/25/0306:36PM by mortoma

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 08:06 PM
I agree with mortoma here. I don't even fly german ac normally. I couldnt resist this challenge and loaded up 2 I16 aces against me in a lone f2. They were dead in short order.

The key is E management. I climb with all I got until they are 3-4k out then I drop my nose for speed and I pass them at their alt at the merge with a lot of energy while they are climbing. Then I do a nice high loop back around to their six with mucho alt advantage and I come in for the wingman. I then repeat until they are dead.

Must have Energy, Bottom line!

Good luck.


PF-Coastie

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XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 09:33 PM
I have gotten behind the I-16's for a kill many times,but I need some work on what to aim at.I am either in a 109E or a 109F and I just about empty all my rounds into her and piecses flying everwhere before I knock it out of the sky.Is the wing the best place to shoot or is there some other place that I could hit that would bring it down faster.

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 11:40 PM
Shooting from directly behind is not very effective on any plane. You should not be behind an i16 in a 109. You should be coming down from above it and hitting it from a nice top view. Go for the wing roots or the engine.

Good luck!

PF-Coastie

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Coasties Place (http://www.angelfire.com/ultra/coastie0/)

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 11:40 PM
i like the I-16!!!!!/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif lol

>>>>>Hyper lobby name: Tore<<<<<

http://www.il2skins.com/skins/thumbs/4687.jpg


find my skins here: http://www.il2skins.com/?action=list&whereauthorid=i16fan&comefrom=display&ts=1049772896

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 11:51 PM
You can forget MG's and use your cannon(s) on the wing middle, but try to hit it from above, where the damage will be maximized. Or fire both guns in the engine-canopy area, coming from above where you have a nice view of the pilot's helmet /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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<

XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 02:58 AM
Engine area works fine, I've had I-16s go kablooey on me several times in my offline DCG campaign. Always an interesting experience to be flying through an unexpected cloud of debris. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
Kudos to Paul Lowengrin for making DCG btw, if you want immersive offline campaigns, this is the tool for you. Go download from http://members.shaw.ca/lowengrin/ if you haven't already.

XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 03:20 AM
Quarter loops will keep you safe from AI I-16's, every time and allow you a chance to build an altitude advantage for a shot. Works like this.

1. don't let them get right on your arse, or you'll have to tighten up the loop to keep them from firing and do a whole bunch of them.

2. start a normal loop with I-16 in lag pursuit.

3. roll 90 degrees in the verticle, G force on, before you get slow, control the nose to come out the loop wings level, objective is force the AI to track you guns on inverted, wings upside down he don't fly very well./i/smilies/16x16_robot-wink.gif

4. as soon as he wastes big energy rolling through the manouver and pitches his nose back up at you to track, dive and start another loop. Now he burns more forcing the nose back down.

5. every time he loses a little more energy, keep it fast and loose as possible, but enough turn and timed roll, direction change, to keep from getting shot.

6. about four or five of these and you got enough altitude seperation to dive controled on him with a killing shot.

7. never try this as a repeat manouver against a human.

XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 09:01 AM
Hey Guys,I only have The Original IL2, Not FB, and U pplz seem to be saying a lot about the I-16. I was just wondering wat kinda plane is it, Can u guys gimme a Brief Rundown on It and its stats, Is it Like the La-5N in IL2?
Cuase the La5N is my Choice in IL2 For dogfighting. Its Fast, manueverable, Takeoffs without flaps in like 5 seconds....despite It only has 2 Machineguns which dont pakc the biggest punch. So can u ppl please show me sum pics and info of it ......Thanx /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

"China is a Big Country, Inhabited by many Chinese People"- Quoted by a FORMER French President

XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 10:29 AM
RaNciD--VH221 wrote:
- Hey Guys,I only have The Original IL2, Not FB, and U
- pplz seem to be saying a lot about the I-16. I was
- just wondering wat kinda plane is it, Can u guys
- gimme a Brief Rundown on It and its stats, Is it
- Like the La-5N in IL2?
- Cuase the La5N is my Choice in IL2 For dogfighting.
- Its Fast, manueverable, Takeoffs without flaps in
- like 5 seconds....despite It only has 2 Machineguns
- which dont pakc the biggest punch. So can u ppl
- please show me sum pics and info of it ......Thanx
- /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
-
- "China is a Big Country, Inhabited by many Chinese
- People"- Quoted by a FORMER French President


I-16 is a nimble, open cockpit canopy early war fighter..one of the most nimble fighters.. one of the best turner (after Chaikka).. can carry rockets and bombs.. It only lacks some speed (thank god! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif ), but if any german plane gets into same horizontal level with you, you will own him. Get FB and see for your self /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif And BTW LA5 has 2x Shvak (2x 20mm cannons, not machine guns) , they are quite effective.. maybe not in old IL-2, if i remember correctly but sure is a killer in FB.


____________________________________



<center>http://koti.mbnet.fi/vipez/sig3.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 10:57 AM
Vipez- wrote:
-
- Get FB and see for your self

Or simply download the available patches for the original IL-2. I-16 is flyable in patch 1.1.

---------------
http://home.arcor.de/rayluck/sturmovik/stulogo-banner.jpg (http://home.arcor.de/rayluck/sturmovik/)

Kampagne für IL-2 1.2: I-16 - Kampf im Kaukasus (Deutsch) (http://home.arcor.de/rayluck/sturmovik/kampagne.html)

XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 11:47 AM
I-16s suck *** at high altitudes they just dont seem to be able to get the engine power at heights over 3000m then you can hop into a Yak or somthing and maul them http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Wilhelm