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Latico
07-10-2004, 10:04 PM
I'm curious as to how long it takes to develop a combat flight sim, from conception to "in the box"?

How many man (or woman) hours does it take to build the engine to run it (approx.)?

How many hours are involved to develop a single engine aircraft, including the graphics, FM, DM, etc.?

How many cases of asperin, anti-acids, etc. are needed to maintain reasonable health of developers? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

OK, the last one was for fun, but I think that if the end users had an idea of the time involved in creating a great sim it might reduce some of the complaints when users don't see what they want in the game.

Could the Dev's take a shot at this one, please?

Latico
07-10-2004, 10:04 PM
I'm curious as to how long it takes to develop a combat flight sim, from conception to "in the box"?

How many man (or woman) hours does it take to build the engine to run it (approx.)?

How many hours are involved to develop a single engine aircraft, including the graphics, FM, DM, etc.?

How many cases of asperin, anti-acids, etc. are needed to maintain reasonable health of developers? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

OK, the last one was for fun, but I think that if the end users had an idea of the time involved in creating a great sim it might reduce some of the complaints when users don't see what they want in the game.

Could the Dev's take a shot at this one, please?

heywooood
07-10-2004, 10:18 PM
Theses are great questions - and I hope the people involved will take time to respond...

~ bimp ~



http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v250/heywooood/ac_32_1.jpg
"Check your guns"

fordfan25
07-10-2004, 10:37 PM
2 weeks http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

heywooood
07-10-2004, 10:59 PM
fordfan...theres a toyota on your six...brake right, you cant outrun 'em but you can out-turn those!



http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v250/heywooood/ac_32_1.jpg
"Check your guns"

Texas LongHorn
07-11-2004, 02:09 AM
While I never worked on MSFS, I did work for a number of years for MicroSoft on the various OS's. Simulators are different, the dev time was about a year for each new version of the Flight Simulator. Ironically, the OS boys like myself were billing sometimes as high as a hundred hours a week. So were the sim boys, I'll tell you buddy, that leaves very little time for a life. The IL2FBAces engine is especially robust, and never seems to crash on my machine. Look at the history though, first IL-2, then FB, then Aces plus do not forget the eight million patches. By using the Aces engine the dev team saves years in PF, it's really just a matter of putting the stuff in the sim, and no, I no longer work a hundred hours a week, I was able to retire at 45. All the best, LongHorn

http://img49.photobucket.com/albums/v149/msdavis/My_Sig_Image2.jpg

PlaneEater
07-11-2004, 02:27 AM
The MS flight sim games get put out ever year or so because MS does quantity, not quality. Other than minor graphical improvements to the basic MS engine (which is the exact same core engine, continually updated since MSFS95), all of what they actually add a new 'version' amounts to quite little.

For games like MiG Alley and Aces of the Luftwaffe, where the engine was written from scratch for the game, two years is probably cutting it very close. Sacrifices in detail and number of features included are inevitable.

For PF, since we're using a touched-up FB engine, we got to skip some of the 'build the engine' step. However, we went for three or four times the amount of planes, tanks, terrain, ships, markings, missions, etc., as you would normally expect from a game that was written from the ground up.

Personally, I would have opted for 18 to 24 months of active development time before feature freeze and testing. With that amount of time, we could have finished an unprecidented amount of stuff to a quality level that would have made flight-sim history, and given it all to you right out of the box.

Now it'll just take a few free add-on patches. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Penguin_PFF
07-11-2004, 09:53 AM
I don't know about the exact details of writing an engine, importing, etc. With the engine itself already mostly written, PF seems to have about a year budgeted to make the whole thing, from concept to box. That's just my guess though. Luthier started looking for modelers in November and the game is supposedly aiming for an October release, so...

Word on the street is that Luthier has been pulling 19-hour days for the last two months or so. He is actually making models, as well as maps, and checking modeler's work, and other things.

"How many hours are involved to develop a single engine aircraft, including the graphics, FM, DM, etc.?"

For one person without any help, my guess is about 500-750 hours per plane. Note how wide the spread is, it's tough to guess. Maybe half that, maybe twice that, depending on a lot of factors. That's been my experience (two planes completed from scratch, doing absolutely everything myself). Good references can speed that up immensely though. I usually spend about a quarter of my modeling time scaring up references or working with them, trying to figure out things that would be solved in five seconds by a good manufacturer's drawing (photo analysis/measurement, etc.)

>How many cases of aspirin, anti-acids, etc. >are needed to maintain reasonable health of >developers? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

The biggest enemy of 3D development is sleep. I was drinking a couple of Diet Cokes late every night towards the end of the week when the lack of sleep started to take its toll. There were also a couple of days that I cracked a bottle of something to take the edge off of busting my *** to make a deadline. Trying to work on this stuff while going to school and working a second job can really suck. Champagne helps, and so does Port, but Port is too debilitating.

"OK, the last one was for fun, but I think that if the end users had an idea of the time involved in creating a great sim it might reduce some of the complaints when users don't see what they want in the game."

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/34.gif I mock your hopeful optimism.

Some of the **** that gets posted here, I'd like to see somebody try and take that tone with me or anybody else involved in PF in person. I'm convinced that the internet is fostering psychological and social problems among today's youth.

fordfan25
07-11-2004, 11:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by heywooood:
fordfan...theres a toyota on your six...brake right, you cant outrun 'em but you can out-turn those!



http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v250/heywooood/ac_32_1.jpg
"Check your guns"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

cant out run him? o your very much mistaken.my ford is very over modled http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Latico
07-11-2004, 01:20 PM
Thanks guys, for the replies. I'm no modeler or programer myself. Heck, I don't know if I can program my VCR to record a TV program or not. (haven't tried it)

Penquin wrote:
"Some of the **** that gets posted here, I'd like to see somebody try and take that tone with me or anybody else involved in PF in person. I'm convinced that the internet is fostering psychological and social problems among today's youth."

I tend to agree with ya Penguin, but it may not be restricted to the youth. Some of us old farts have to have our daily Internet fix, too. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

icrash
07-11-2004, 05:54 PM
game developers http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif

http://img38.photobucket.com/albums/v117/icrash/txraidersig.bmp

heywooood
07-11-2004, 06:51 PM
Thanks to Penguin and Planeater for posting responses here... I agree Penguin that some of the people that post here would behave differently in person...but that would not necessarily represent their true character. If someone is thoughtful in these forums, they will be thoughtful in person. It does seem like one more dehumanizing environment at times...but if a young person is raised right - they should be alright.

I will take this opportunity to once again say thank you to both of you for your excellent work and long hours spent making this outstanding product..I know PF will be awesome, even if a patch or two after release will be necessary. Whats another 2 weeks.



http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v250/heywooood/ac_32_1.jpg
"Check your guns"

heywooood
07-11-2004, 06:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fordfan25:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by heywooood:
fordfan...theres a toyota on your six...brake right, you cant outrun 'em but you can out-turn those!



http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v250/heywooood/ac_32_1.jpg
"Check your guns"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

cant out run him? o your very much mistaken.my ford is very over modled http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I figured as much... be sure http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I was doing the Ben Afflict thing...you know "our P-40's cant outrun the Zeros so we'll have to get 'em down low...we can out-turn'em".... crappiest line from the crappiest, least researched movie ever.



http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v250/heywooood/ac_32_1.jpg
"Check your guns"

Penguin_PFF
07-11-2004, 07:26 PM
"It does seem like one more dehumanizing environment at times...but if a young person is raised right - they should be alright."

Well, it's just a theory of mine. I am in my Profoundly Cynical Mid-20's, you know. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/53.gif

"I will take this opportunity to once again say thank you to both of you for your excellent work and long hours spent making this outstanding product..I know PF will be awesome, even if a patch or two after release will be necessary. Whats another 2 weeks."

Thanks. But we're just the tip of the iceberg, there's a whole lot of people working on this, or who DID work on it, quite a few of them in between second jobs, family, etc.

Oh, and while I think of it, regarding medicines, etc. for keeping up health... Since the question was asked, there was about three weeks in May when I was popping aspirins every now and again. I developed some sort of strain in a muscle in my left hand (mouse hand), basically a pain that ran all the way into my forearm. I switched to using the mouse with the right. It still hasn't completely gone away. So actually, I have needed a couple of aspirin here and there. "Mouse fatigue" I guess. I imagine everybody who uses a computer for work gets something like that at one point or another.

"I was doing the Ben Afflict thing...you know "our P-40's cant outrun the Zeros so we'll have to get 'em down low...we can out-turn'em".... crappiest line from the crappiest, least researched movie ever."

I feel stronger than that. I think it was a *******ed disgrace. Typical Bay/Bruckheimer bull****, just sugar-coated **** masquerading as a legitimate movie behind a gazillion dollar marketing budget and lots of explosions and pseudo-drama. With all the real stuff that happened that morning that COULD have been made into an incredible movie, we get a ten-minute soap opera crossed with a B-grade comic book. Look, shinies! Ooh look explosions! Dear audience, you're watching an AWESOME MOVIE so shut up and like it! Bastards. And then they have the nerve to hold a big blowout party for the film release and invite veterans, and talk about how they were paying homage to history. Let me break out my Hollywood dictionary:

"Homage - See 'Rape'."

fordfan25
07-11-2004, 07:28 PM
yea lol i figured it out about 2 sec after i posted lol. boy did he have it sdrawkcab ssa lol http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif.

fordfan25
07-11-2004, 07:39 PM
o and about the movie ..shoot i thought it was alright not great but alright more action woulda been cool. of course i wasnt looking for a documentrary.remember a movie like that isnt directed towards pepole like us there are tring to make alot of mony so thay aim it at a large group. now dont get me wrong i woulda preferd less romance and even less aflict.the part i hated the most was the boxing match.trust me iv been in my share of fights and unless your some kinda chuck norries like life devoted fighter there is no way some one the size of that cook woulda been able to take that machanic. atleast not in a boxing match like that one lol. i know iv tried lol....many times unfortunately http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif

heywooood
07-11-2004, 07:51 PM
Penguin - You think you're cynical now?... when you are twice twenty like me you will be twice as cynical.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif... like me.
BtW I could not agree more with your appraisal of the unmentionable movie in question... an utter DISGRACE.
I am heartened to know that a man of your years feels this strongly about the wrongfulness of it - and of the wasted opportunity - and the disrespect shown to those veterans. Shameful it was.

Regarding PF/FB/Aces..I know many more are involved in this production but you guys responded and for that, and your hard work I thank you.

And Fordfan?....yer Killin' me. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif

or should I say..em 'nilliK rey?..



http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v250/heywooood/ac_32_1.jpg
"Check your guns"

[This message was edited by heywooood on Sun July 11 2004 at 08:02 PM.]