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iltertugan
08-13-2015, 07:52 PM
I liked the skillwheel. Quite well and simple. Very good job.

If there are 8 levels to unlock a grandmaster ability, there is an empty investing level (unlocking grandmaster rank before acquiring grandmaster ability). 2 levels for Novice (one for rank, other for ability) + 2 levels for Expert + 2 levels for Master + 2 levels for Grandmaster = 8 levels. I haven’t a problem with spending an empty investment. This way, one can prefer two master abilities to one grandmaster ability.

However this picture shows what makes me displeased: http://i.imgur.com/bwX3iSC.jpg Shows a level 30 hero’s development who wants to reach last abilities of his/her skills. The hero has only 4 skills and they narrowly reach their last abilities. No level points remain to unlock some of their other 3 abilities. There are only 15 abilities (Though some heroes like Ossir will have 17 abilities). And again I point to number of skills: Only 4.

It’s not necessary to complete all skills but I think there should be at least 20 abilities like in this picture: http://i.imgur.com/AoAnoyz.jpg I suppose this extra 5 abilities will satisfy most of the players too.

To provide this you could send up the maximum level to 35, but it’s already rare to reach level 30. So, this is not a real way out.

Or you can remove 3 empty grandmaster ranks and heroes start with Novice ranks of 2 other primary skills just like their factional skills.

Or maybe in every 6th level we get two investing points instead of one. Though this is not so likeable.

Or my main proffer is this:

First I thought to separate the development into two branches: Lenghtwise (unlocking ranks and one upper ability) and breadthwise (unlocking other abilities in a rank). But it’s more convenient for Heroes 7 skillwheel to separate into another two branches: Unlocking ranks, unlocking abilities.

For more abilities, we have to cut down on spending points for the rank improvement. So, if a hero learns a skill, that skill improves in time. The ranks can improve automatically in every 7 levels. But concentrating on a skill shortens the evolving time for that skill (Every unlocking ability in that skill removes one point from 7). This doesn’t affect other skills’ improvement number. See how it works for a skill: http://i.imgur.com/HJFKqnz.jpg

There is one more thinking to reach 20 abilities:

It’s obvious that a hero must spend level points for novice ranks to determine his/her skill choices. On the other hand, spending points for unlocking grandmaster ranks could be necessary for the reason I mentioned at the beginning. But if a hero unlocks a skill’s expert (or master) rank, he/she unlocks expert (or master) rank circle of the skillwheel at the same time. Here the picture: http://i.imgur.com/1s59jmC.jpg This means that he/she only has to unlock one of his/her skills’ expert rank. Other skills’ expert ranks improves automatically in time. Same for master skill rank. So, as you can see at next picture a hero needs 9 level points for rank unlockings. Thus 20 level remains for abilities.
http://i.imgur.com/N7W7pSQ.jpg

We provided 20 abilities. But I prefer (like the all players I guess) more abilities, so we can decrease the number of the rank unlocking points to 4 (four novice ranks to determine skill choices). All other ranks improve automatically in time (still have to have at least one ability from previous rank to unlock a new rank). It works like this:
http://i.imgur.com/klfoEIs.jpg

In this manner we have 25 abilities to choose.

Please think about it. I hope we can see this in Heroes 7 or I’m sure you can improve this logic for Heroes 8.

Antalyan
08-14-2015, 02:31 PM
I would like to admire your determination and enthusiasm, not many fans are able to show so large solution article about one problem, even with so many alternatives :D

But I would like to ask you, where did you find out the information about empty grandmaster investment?

I have supposed the system works in this way:

level 2: unlock novice rank
level 3: unlock first novice ability
level 4: unlock expert rank
level 5: unlock first expert ability
level 6: unlock master rank
level 7: unlock master ability
level 8: unlock grandmaster ability

My expectations are based of course on this article. https://mmh7.ubi.com/en/blog/post/view/the-skillwheel-in-mmh7

But I see there no empty investment point, could you please explain me what you mean?

iltertugan
08-14-2015, 07:27 PM
Thank you Antalyan.

In this “Skillwheel: The design Philosophy” link (https://mmh7.ubi.com/en/blog/post/view/skillwheel-the-design-philosophy),

under the “4. On so-called ultimates” topic, it says:

“…So, the only restriction is to reach them using the regular rules, which means 6 to 8 levels investing only on that skill, depending on the starting rank of the hero.”

I understand from this expression that it costs 6 levels if the hero has a skill’s novice rank and one of its novice ability,

8 levels if doesn’t start with novice rank,

7 levels for his/her factional skill (if doesn’t start with an ability from this skill). [If I am not mistaken, a hero starts with his/her factional skill’s novice rank at level 1.]

According to expression, maximum number is 8. But if there isn’t an empty grandmaster investment, a hero can reach one of his/her grandmaster abilities after 7 levels maximum:

First level point (it can start at level 5 for example) for unlocking Novice Rank
2nd level point for unlocking First Novice Ability
3rd level point for unlocking Expert Rank
4th level point for unlocking First Expert Ability
5th level point for unlocking Master Rank
6th level point for unlocking Master Ability
7th level point for unlocking Grandmaster Ability

So, if there are maximum 8 levels to unlock a grandmaster ability, there must be a grandmaster rank before unlocking grandmaster ability. I didn’t read this anywhere and I didn’t play Beta. That’s what I understand from the link’s expression.

broui
08-15-2015, 04:10 PM
Excellent inquiry here, iltertugen.


I had thought that with these fixed skill wheels, there were too many limitations which would negate so many variables that the game would become stale rather quickly. But, as your inquiry shows, it may be more troubling than that. One may explore the 10 skills available but to GM, one must limit their heroes to 3 it would seem given the level cap of 30.

Do the experience/leveling up rules need to be adjusted? Should the cap be lifted? Is there really any reason to limit heroes to 10 possible skills? In your above example, why couldn't this Orc hero learn fire magic at least at low levels?

Antalyan
08-15-2015, 04:21 PM
I think I have found a solution.

The problem may be that the article writer counted in especially the situation at the beginning of the game. Thus, if you don't have appropriate starting skill, you will get the grandmaster ability at the level 8 (but I agree that it is very considerable and unclear if "you can get the grandmaster on the level 8" means "you need 6 to 8 levels investing only on that skill").

And as you probably know, there is no free skill point on the level one.

Although I have played beta (if it can be called playing with so many bugs and problems), I don't remember it well enough to say whether I am right. But I am still convinced there is no grandmaster rank, at least as the article I have pointed at before says - to unlock the grandmaster it is enough to unlock the master ability.

Antalyan
08-15-2015, 04:23 PM
Excellent inquiry here, iltertugen.


I had thought that with these fixed skill wheels, there were too many limitations which would negate so many variables that the game would become stale rather quickly. But, as your inquiry shows, it may be more troubling than that. One may explore the 10 skills available but to GM, one must limit their heroes to 3 it would seem given the level cap of 30.

Do the experience/leveling up rules need to be adjusted? Should the cap be lifted? Is there really any reason to limit heroes to 10 possible skills? In your above example, why couldn't this Orc hero learn fire magic at least at low levels?

The level cap is a nonsense made by Ubisoft to balance the game, most of players hate it so I hope that Ubi/Limbic will get rid of it after beta or in patches.