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XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 09:27 AM
Could someone tell me briefly how the Japanes, Italian, and other nations guns compared to those of US, VVS, and Luftwaffe? I'm particularly interested in the Breda mg's utilized by the Macchi-202/205. How were Japan's 20mm cannons?

http://user.tninet.se/~ytm843e/graham4.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 09:27 AM
Could someone tell me briefly how the Japanes, Italian, and other nations guns compared to those of US, VVS, and Luftwaffe? I'm particularly interested in the Breda mg's utilized by the Macchi-202/205. How were Japan's 20mm cannons?

http://user.tninet.se/~ytm843e/graham4.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 10:24 AM
nah you want to look at the Italian bomber the Piaggo P.108a with its 102mm gun http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


" call that a gun .. now this is a gun "

XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 10:27 AM
All i know is that many axis planes used german guns but i don't know how their own ones were.

http://www.just-pooh.com/images/eten.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 02:05 PM
Good question. I would liek to here about the Italian guns myself as I am looking forward to flying the MC202 one of these days.

I remember that the 20 mm cannon on early Zero's had a slow rate of fire & only carried 60 rounds. I believe they were a copy of the Oerliken cannon used in the Spitfire, but that it took some time for the Japanese to achieve the same quality of manufacture. Most Japanese aces seem to think that they would have been better off with more .50 mgs in their planes.
Jaopanese mgs seem to have been without any problems as I don't recall seeing any complaints about them. Like the Soviets though the Japanese had problems with quality control of many aircraft & components.

"Anytime you have an opportunity to make things better and you don't, then you are wasting your time on this earth." -Roberto Clemente

XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 02:32 PM
The Breda is roughly similar to the 12.7mm MG-131 It was reliable and accurate, but heavy. It is simmilar the the MG-131 weapon used by the luftwaffe with a slower rate of fire. The Breda, however, had a greater muzzle velocity. The Regia Aeronautica pilots considered the 2x bredas an inferior weapon configuration, compared the luftwaffe equipment due to lack of cannon.

The japanese used the swiss 20mm oerlikon cannon built under licence called type 99. It had a slow muzzle velocity and rate of fire, but it was powerful. Comprable to the german MG-FF.

http://frenchaces.free.fr/avions/regia/g50.jpg

Incocca!
Tende!
Scagua!

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XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 02:51 PM
kyrule2 wrote:
- Could someone tell me briefly how the Japanes,
- Italian, and other nations guns compared to those of
- US, VVS, and Luftwaffe? I'm particularly interested
- in the Breda mg's utilized by the Macchi-202/205.
- How were Japan's 20mm cannons?
-

Check this site:

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/

There is also a discussion board:

http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/

Tony Williams has written a book plus many articles on WW2 guns.




http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/air_power/ap18a.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 02:58 PM
Also go to here and scroll down.

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/8217/fgun/fgun-in.html

http://www.geocities.com/kimurakai/SIG/262_01011.jpg


Kimura

XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 02:59 PM
Typical Italian Gun:
Slow ROF, slow muzzle velocity, heavy (Breda-SAFAT 7.7, 12.7)
Italian fighter used the German MG 151/20 in later models.

Japanese Guns have realy wide-spread performance. Early designs were even worse than Italian guns, later designs almost as good as Russian ones. (LMG: Type 89 <-> Type 98, Cannon: Type 99 <-> Typ 1) To my knowledge the Japanese took a Browning .50 M2 and modified it so it could use 20mm cartridges. This worked pretty well.

The Americans had their 0.50. Decent, reliable but not outstanding.

In the beginning the Brits made heavy use of LMG's which were average performers. Later they switched to American .50's and Hispano 20mm. The Hispanos were probably the hardest hitting 20mm cannons in the war.

The Germans were very good with cannons, their weapons (cannons and guns) generelly beeing lighter firing at with lower muzzle velocity. The cannons usually had more destructive power than Allied contemporaries, because they carried a higher load of explosives. The Germans probably built the most devastating air-to-air gun in WW2, the Mk 108.

The best guns probably came from the Soviet Union. They were light, had a high ROF and a very good punch. This is true for LMG, HMG and Cannon.

XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 03:08 PM
JtD wrote:
- Typical Italian Gun:
- Slow ROF, slow muzzle velocity, heavy (Breda-SAFAT
- 7.7, 12.7)

The Breda had a greater muzzle velocity than the MG-131 and a greater projectile weight. Don't knock us Italians! Froccio.

Ciao

http://frenchaces.free.fr/avions/regia/g50.jpg

Incocca!
Tende!
Scagua!

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XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 03:30 PM
mike_espo wrote:
- The Breda had a greater muzzle velocity

5%

- than the MG-131 and a greater projectile weight.

5%

But had a lower rate of fire

20%

and was heavier by

70%.

Now while I consider differences of 5% (or even 20%) unimportant, I don't think that you can disregard the weight.

Compare the Breda to the "standard" 0.50 cal you'll find it to be about as heavy, having inferior ROF, less muzzle velocity and a lighter projectile, all together it would be at about half it's efficiency. I don't even dare to compare to the UB guns. Imho (that is just me) Italian guns were technically the worst among the guns of major war powers.

- Don't knock us Italians!

No offense meant.

XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 06:41 PM
Its still a machine gun and they still shot down allied aircraft with only 2x12.7mm.
Its only when they faced american four engined bombers that the weak ammo was apparent.
Franco Lucchini, one of italy's top aces with 24 kills died when he attacked a B-17 formation in a Mc202 with only 2x12.7mm. He only managed to damage 3 of them before the B-17 gunners got him.

XyZspineZyX
06-28-2003, 05:07 AM
Thanks for the replies/info guys, good stuff.

http://user.tninet.se/~ytm843e/graham4.jpg