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XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 04:59 PM
Hello, everyone.

I tested some aircrafts today with FB 1.2b. When I flied p-40m, I felt its turn-rate was reduced and its stall happened more frequently, compared to 1.11. Is there anyone that has tested it?


------------------------------------
"Heaven Shall Burn...When We Are Gathered"

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 04:59 PM
Hello, everyone.

I tested some aircrafts today with FB 1.2b. When I flied p-40m, I felt its turn-rate was reduced and its stall happened more frequently, compared to 1.11. Is there anyone that has tested it?


------------------------------------
"Heaven Shall Burn...When We Are Gathered"

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 06:29 PM
Yes, I noticed right away that all the P-40s are more subject to stall, when they were already prone to begin with before the patch. I think it was about right before, now it's very hard to do combat in them without constant stalling. I think they over did things a bit?!?!?!!

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin - 1755

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 06:31 PM
oh really. good as more challenge when fight with A6M2/5

Regards
SnowLeopard

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 06:35 PM
Im no fighter ace, and im not saying your wrong, but the P-40 wan NEVER meant to turn w/ its adversaries. Get her as high as possible and drop the nose. Boom and zoom is her best offense. And if someone is on your 6, do the same and extend. Again, I dont know if the FM is wrong, but you should be able to dust a zeke in a dive, if ya cant do that, we have a prob w/ the FM for sure.

-Cheers

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 07:47 PM
- ah, never mind, I don't bother about FMs here any more.

Just on a sidenote: Your statement that the P-40 was never meant to be a turner is untrue. You can't say it that general. Against Zeros, only a fool would turn of course. But there are great pilot accounts around about the P-40 in Africa, which state that they could outturn and outdive the 109F-4 (with the turn advantage being small though, so that after all the pilot factor was involved, too), while the 109 could outclimb and outrun them in level flight.



Message Edited on 11/09/0306:56PM by Heart_C

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 07:59 PM
The bizzare state of the P40 in this sim is very perplexing. At low altitudes it was as fast or faster than the P51, and it was faster at ALL altitudes than the Zero, yet that is not true in FB.

The great Japanese ace Sakai has said that the Zero, any Zero, was no faster than 309mph...

Russian pilots state that the P40 was competitve with 109s up till early 1943.

Again, these statements are not born out in FB.

What gives here?

I am really loosing my patience with FB.

<center><FONT color="red">[b]BlitzPig_EL</FONT>[B]<CENTER> http://old.jccc.net/~droberts/p40/images/p40home.gif
</img>.
"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day that it was vanity:
but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible. "
--T.E. Lawrence

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 08:23 PM
Looer74 said:
"but the P-40 wan NEVER meant to turn w/ its adversaries"

That's strange, David Schilling said of the P-40:
"That plane was turn, turn, and turn".

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/WAR-08.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 09:12 PM
I should have made myself clear, I meant with zekes. I obviously know little about the 40 vs 109, explaining my inability to get a kill vs. a 109. Anyway, I just played around w/ the P40 and it felt stiff in the roll, was that true of the real A/C?




Message Edited on 11/09/0308:15PM by looper74

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 09:45 PM
As read P-40 compare it to:
1. BF:
- P-40 have better: turn, roll rate, dive, (speed than BF E)
- P-40 have worse: climb, speed (except Bf E)

2. A6M
- P-40 have better: roll rate, dive, zoom climb, speed(depend of version)
- have worse: turn, climb

In my opinion P-40 in Fb have some bugs:
- weak roll rate - it should have roll rate at 260 mph was 96 degrees per second, three times that of the Zero's mere 35 degrees at the same speed.
- P-40 is slowly than A6M5 in the deck



"In a short but informative interview with Saburo Sakai, Japans leading living Ace, I asked, "Commander, what was the Zero's top speed?" His answer amazed me when he said, "The A6M2 had a top speed of 309 mph. and a maximum allowable dive speed of 350 mph. It became extremely heavy on the controls above 275 mph, and approaching 350 mph, the Zero's controls were so heavy it was impossible to roll. A further comment by Sakai was that the skin on the wings started to wrinkle, causing the pilot great concern, since a number of Zero's had shed their wings in a dive." A captured Zero tested by Americans military, showed its top speed to be 319 mph, this was a later model, the AM6M5, and was tested without guns or ammunition. Therefore Saburo Sakai's statement that the top speed of the A6M2 and A6M3 of 309 mph would seem to be correct."

Link:
http://home.att.net/~C.C.Jordan/Shilling2.html

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 10:15 PM
looper74 wrote:
- Im no fighter ace, and im not saying your wrong, but
- the P-40 wan NEVER meant to turn w/ its adversaries.
- Get her as high as possible and drop the nose. Boom
- and zoom is her best offense. And if someone is on
- your 6, do the same and extend. Again, I dont know
- if the FM is wrong, but you should be able to dust a
- zeke in a dive, if ya cant do that, we have a prob
- w/ the FM for sure.
-
-
--Cheers
-
-
Loop, in RL, the P-40 could turn with any monoplane the Axis had to offer, and its level speed and accelleration was at least comparable. US P-40 Groups in North Africa, China, and in the Pacific all showed what it could do and how to do it, while British and Commonwealth pilots who took it into combat without proper training or familiarization did not do nearly as well, with a few notable exceptions. The only real faults the P-40 had were poor climb and higher altitude performance; like all none turbo charged Allison powered aircraft, it just started wheezing and gasping somewhere over 18,000 ft.

It couldn't turn with a Zeke or an Oscar, but then neither could anything else.


"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" - LCOL Don Blakeslee, CO, 4th FG, March, 1944

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 11:49 PM
Kwiatos wrote:
- As read P-40 compare it to:
- 1. BF:
-- P-40 have better: turn, roll rate, dive, (speed than BF E)
-- P-40 have worse: climb, speed (except Bf E)
-
- 2. A6M
-- P-40 have better: roll rate, dive, zoom climb, speed(depend of version)
-- have worse: turn, climb..........

Wait until you meet Ki-44





Regards
SnowLeopard

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 01:00 AM
I noticed this as well, and still to this day oleg wont changes its roll rate to be faster then the p39 which i just dont get,

the p40m seems like version 1.0 1.1b where the E doesnt stall as easy as the M,

the p40e had a problem where the pilots would stall nose over at low speeds the was corrected in the M model by adding extended rudder tab and elevator tab. Im hoping oleg fixes the p40s fm along with the early hurricane, the b239 is superior to them now

but the b239 should be able to out run the i16 and i153 which they do now so the p40 and hurricane, if they reduce the 50lbs of stick pressure on them and extend the overheat time on the p40 i think it would help,

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XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 01:24 AM
ElAurens wrote:
- The bizzare state of the P40 in this sim is very
- perplexing. At low altitudes it was as fast or
- faster than the P51, and it was faster at ALL
- altitudes than the Zero, yet that is not true in FB.
-

According to America's Hundred Thousand the P40(E and F models shown) was slower than the P51 at sea level by about 40+ mph.(Graph 77) From the tables in this book the roll rate seem to be the real strongpoint, faster than almost any US plane. I don't really see that in the game though.

DangerForward

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 01:42 AM
DangerForward wrote:
--
-
- According to America's Hundred Thousand the P40(E
- and F models shown) was slower than the P51 at sea
- level by about 40+ mph.(Graph 77)

I stand corrected sir. Guess I should have looked at my copy first...lol.

In any case the p40 IS undeermodeled in FB.....

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

<center><FONT color="red">[b]BlitzPig_EL</FONT>[B]<CENTER> http://old.jccc.net/~droberts/p40/images/p40home.gif
</img>.
"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day that it was vanity:
but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible. "
--T.E. Lawrence

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 02:46 AM
-
- I stand corrected sir. Guess I should have looked
- at my copy first...lol.
-
- In any case the p40 IS undeermodeled in FB.....

It's a great book, I've been interested in WWII for a long time, still when I received this book there were a number a surpises for me:

Of the late war planes the P-38(L model I believe) had the best climb and acceleration.

The P47 was only an average roller compared to other US planes. Robert Johnson had said, "Nothing rolls with the P47."

The P39 was pretty good at FB alts.

Finally as a LW flier, I got nervous when I saw how awesome the P63 is. Nervous, very nervous.../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

DangerForward

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 06:34 PM
The numbers you give for the Zero are incorrect. Well the numbers are right but the UNITS are wrong. The Zero being a Navy plane measured it's speed in nautical miles per hour.
1 Knot + 1.152 mph + 1.85 KpH

So a top speed of 309 Knts + 355.986 Mph

a dive speed limit of 350Kts + 403.2 Mph

and on the latter production model 52a's the skin on the wings was strengthened so the dive limit was moved up to 400Knots = 460.8 mph or 740 Kph which is better than any of the VVS planes currecntly in FB
So the rule for the VVS will be don't turn with a Zero & don't dive with one either!?

Interesting I think.

Kwiatos wrote:
- -
- In my opinion P-40 in Fb have some bugs:
-- weak roll rate - it should have roll rate at 260 mph was 96 degrees per second, three times that of the Zero's mere 35 degrees at the same speed.
-- P-40 is slowly than A6M5 in the deck
-
-
-
- "In a short but informative interview with Saburo
- Sakai, Japans leading living Ace, I asked,
- "Commander, what was the Zero's top speed?" His
- answer amazed me when he said, "The A6M2 had a top
- speed of 309 mph. and a maximum allowable dive speed
- of 350 mph. It became extremely heavy on the
- controls above 275 mph, and approaching 350 mph, the
- Zero's controls were so heavy it was impossible to
- roll. A further comment by Sakai was that the skin
- on the wings started to wrinkle, causing the pilot
- great concern, since a number of Zero's had shed
- their wings in a dive." A captured Zero tested by
- Americans military, showed its top speed to be 319
- mph, this was a later model, the AM6M5, and was
- tested without guns or ammunition. Therefore Saburo
- Sakai's statement that the top speed of the A6M2 and
- A6M3 of 309 mph would seem to be correct."
-
- Link:
- <a
- href="http://home.att.net/~C.C.Jordan/Shilling2.ht
- ml"
- target=_blank>http://home.att.net/~C.C.Jordan/Shil
- ling2.html</a>
-
-
-
-
-
-

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 02:37 AM
Saburo_0 wrote:
-
-
- The numbers you give for the Zero are incorrect.
- Well the numbers are right but the UNITS are wrong.
- The Zero being a Navy plane measured it's speed in
- nautical miles per hour.
- 1 Knot + 1.152 mph + 1.85 KpH
-
- So a top speed of 309 Knts + 355.986 Mph
-
- a dive speed limit of 350Kts + 403.2 Mph
-
-
- and on the latter production model 52a's the skin on
- the wings was strengthened so the dive limit was
- moved up to 400Knots = 460.8 mph or 740 Kph which is
- better than any of the VVS planes currecntly in FB
- So the rule for the VVS will be don't turn with a
- Zero & don't dive with one either!?
-
- Interesting I think.
-
- Kwiatos wrote:
-- -
-- In my opinion P-40 in Fb have some bugs:
--- weak roll rate - it should have roll rate at 260 mph was 96 degrees per second, three times that of the Zero's mere 35 degrees at the same speed.
--- P-40 is slowly than A6M5 in the deck
--
--
--
-- "In a short but informative interview with Saburo
-- Sakai, Japans leading living Ace, I asked,
-- "Commander, what was the Zero's top speed?" His
-- answer amazed me when he said, "The A6M2 had a top
-- speed of 309 mph. and a maximum allowable dive speed
-- of 350 mph. It became extremely heavy on the
-- controls above 275 mph, and approaching 350 mph, the
-- Zero's controls were so heavy it was impossible to
-- roll. A further comment by Sakai was that the skin
-- on the wings started to wrinkle, causing the pilot
-- great concern, since a number of Zero's had shed
-- their wings in a dive." A captured Zero tested by
-- Americans military, showed its top speed to be 319
-- mph, this was a later model, the AM6M5, and was
-- tested without guns or ammunition. Therefore Saburo
-- Sakai's statement that the top speed of the A6M2 and
-- A6M3 of 309 mph would seem to be correct."
--
-- Link:
-- <a
-- href="http://home.att.net/~C.C.Jordan/Shilling2.ht
-- ml"
-- target=_blank>http://home.att.net/~C.C.Jordan/Shil
-- ling2.html</a>
--

With all due respect Saburo you are incorrect. The previously recited numbers ( in MPH) are correct. The US didn't convert units to Knots in aircraft until after WW11.

The units in that era in US birds was expressed in MPH.

There is a great volume of reference to verify this. One, I refer you to Erik Skilling's memoirs, Titled, DESTINY, A Flying Tigers Rendezvous with Fate.







BPO5_Jinx
C.O. Replacement Air Group
Birds of Prey. 16th GvIAP
http://www.birdsofprey16thgviap.com
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/RS-15/N50GL.html

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 03:04 AM
needs to be fixed very badly!

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XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 04:24 PM
BPO5_Jinx wrote:
With all due respect Saburo you are incorrect. The
- previously recited numbers ( in MPH) are correct.
- The US didn't convert units to Knots in aircraft
- until after WW11.
-
- The units in that era in US birds was expressed in
- MPH.
-
- There is a great volume of reference to verify this.
- One, I refer you to Erik Skilling's memoirs,
- Titled, DESTINY, A Flying Tigers Rendezvous with
- Fate.
-

Well my i took the figures from the Mikesh book on the Zero.
And they match closely all the other books i've seen figures in.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/087938915X/002-3616209-7468821?v=glance

Schilling's defense of the P-40 is very good & informative. It wa a very important aircraft. But I think his numbers are wrong.
As for the US not converting to knots till after ww2, I can't say but that has no bearing on the IJN anyway.

if I find anything else of interesti'll try & post a link.
S!


her's one:
http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/zerofacts.htm

http://www.squadron.com/old/zero52/zero52review.htm



Message Edited on 11/11/0309:33AM by Saburo_0