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Fatal-Feit
08-10-2015, 06:18 PM
Same match, different sides. :p


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayHIEYv6Fz0


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ed_8SaN4lyQ&feature=youtu.be

Mr_Moonstone
08-10-2015, 07:50 PM
Very nice. Finally some new gameplay. And also from both sides. Also cool to see that's possible to fight with the same factions against each other.

Big thanks for the post!

WYRDB0Y
08-10-2015, 09:52 PM
Another one!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaWZw0UTLwA

shyWolverine
08-10-2015, 10:21 PM
Damn I knew I shouldn't have slept in =P thanks for posting these. Obviously it comes down to player skill and experience, but it looks more spammy and mosh pit like than I thought it would be.

I would also like to hear more chatter from your character and allies, I think it would add to the immersion.

An0ther_Player
08-10-2015, 10:58 PM
Haha, was just about to post the same 3 videos. It's nice to have some new footage :)

@shyWolverine
Those videos do look a bit hack and slash but I think that's just because it's their first time playing. Once every one gets use to the controls I think it will get more competitive.

MisterWillow
08-11-2015, 04:24 AM
Interesting thing in the on Cheeza posted is that she (the commentator) runs through the Feats, and said the first one you get allows you to regain life from killing the AI, which I'm not sure we knew (I certainly didn't know what it did).

Good video, and she seemed to be grasping the controls a bit better than the other two.

WYRDB0Y
08-11-2015, 11:21 AM
Good video, and she seemed to be grasping the controls a bit better than the other two.

Yeah, and here's another one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkeRiZAJJOY
The commentary is in spanish, unfortunately I cannot understand it, but the fights are so much better in this one.

Solid_Altair
08-11-2015, 12:16 PM
Dang it. I had posted the videos, in the other gamescom thread, before seeing this one. I'll paste my commets here.

From the first video:

One guy in the enemy team uses the guard break without the throw. When you do it you actually get a fast free hit. The guys is smart. He uses it with the Warden's fast attack that double-hits. For those of you who ever worried about turtling... you can ease your minds.

And I'm growing more and more suspicious that there is some extra button pressing for performing the good parries against strong attacks. I've seen other examples of well timed parries that were crushed. I think only the devs performed the good ones. But my memmory of the videos I dissected a while ago might be failing.

From the second one:

The guy has a good notion of tactics.

At 4:40 we can see attacks clashing! Shortly after his sword gets repeled from hitting the objects in the map (another sword, actually http://static5.cdn.ubi.com/u/ubiforums/20130918.419/images/smilies/tongue.png).

From the thired video:

* It seems that first Warden Feat gives her health when one-shotting adds. (already mentioned here)

* You sprint stumbling slowly when you have low health (or at least that seemed to be the cause).

* You have negative frames after landing a 2-hit combo (hitting the guy clean with it). Meaning: you're usually supposed to defend, after hitting the guy like this. So, discounting evasions... even if your enemy doesn't parry, you will have to parry in order to win a fight without getting hit.

* The Warden's strong lunging high attack seems to guard crush even against a well-timed parry. I had some evidence of this before, but wasn't betting on it as it made the explanation for guard crushes too complex. But with yet another example, I gotta say dear Okham must take a back seat this time. It really seems like you're supposed to side step this attack. It feels like a fair trade off in with the Oni's back step in his attack of the same kind.

Deadshot.
08-11-2015, 07:55 PM
Interesting how - in the first video, the guy seemed to be running around like a chicken with his head cut off - and the girl (third video) seemed to have a strategy going.

I noticed that they were on the same team as well (by the scores at the end). Odd that running around willy nilly still grants you the most points in a match.
That part is a little disappointing, but - again - people are just trying it for the first time, so...

Also... it looked like there was one particular blue knight who was a quick thrusting machine. Maybe that's just the light attack.

MisterWillow
08-11-2015, 08:02 PM
The commentary is in spanish, unfortunately I cannot understand it, but the fights are so much better in this one.

Those were pretty good. He was even holding off two guys (for a moment anyway). I just want to play it so bad...! :mad:

Deadshot.
08-11-2015, 08:15 PM
Same game as the other ones, eh?
One of the guys on red was complaining about the fact that only he and one other person were communicating.

Maybe the Spanish fella just couldn't.... :)

I'd like to see the video from blue's leader.
16-2 !!! That's quite the kill ratio!
Must've burned him/her to still lose.

I like that about this game! The odds can tip very frequently!

Havemercy87
08-11-2015, 09:49 PM
So effing awesome!! I can't believe I've let myself get off track here lol.. Although all the videos are providing some much needed gameplay info, liked the third video best and definitely wouldn't mind having her as team mate.

All 3 did remind me more of a hack and slash in a way, but with more depth. It was said earlier in thread and I agree that the hack and slash feel will definitely diminish as a player gets more into their warrior...

Arrrg, can't wait!!

Solid_Altair
08-12-2015, 05:59 AM
BTW, there wasn't much special in the Spanish commentary. I don't speak Spanish, but since it's very similar to Portuguese I could understand most of it. He talked about the feats, but he seemed confused about them, so I'd trust that woman's interpretation more. He also said it wasa little hard to switch targets. This makes sense and I think a work around is switching targets while you're doing something, like parrying or striking. Because if you try to switch when iddle, you'll have to forsake your guard for a momment, which could get you hit.

It's funny that some of you guys preffered this video. It was my least favorite.

MisterWillow
08-12-2015, 09:47 AM
It's funny that some of you guys preffered this video. It was my least favorite.

The fights were better, like he had a better handle on the controls than the others. The third one was also very good, easily my favourite overall. Those first two are almost painful to watch by comparison.

Unrelated, but is anybody else experiencing a time-dilation while watching these. I feel like it takes twenty minutes to watch these matches---which appear to be from beginning to end, since they're showing the respawns and everything---but the videos are all seven-and-a-half-ish minutes. Could just be editing I'm not picking up on, or maybe the games feel longer because of the combat. I don't know. Perhaps it's just my brain being weird...:nonchalance:

Anyway; not important---certainly not a complaint---just thought I'd throw that out there.

naphack
08-12-2015, 10:17 AM
All those spinning attacks make me want to have grappling moves. Imagine chaining two strong attacks, stupidly turning your back to your opponent and said opponent just tackling your back, grabbing you and pulling you down, then finishing you with a dagger. Serves you right for turning your back on an opponent.
The timing of the spinning attacks seems kinda stupid as well. After failing to break through with the first attack, you just turn your back to the opponent to gain some momentum and then try the exactly same strike again, but with a bit more force? If it doesn't work the first time, it won't work a second time either...

MrJoker.
08-12-2015, 11:20 AM
Amazing Gameplays :) I can not wait when I will play in it .

LUMBERJACK-0-
08-12-2015, 12:44 PM
I’m a little bit disappointed from the gamescom videos until yet. The same battle from different views. Okay that’s nice and we get some additional information but the video was provided from ubisoft. I want to see real player videos from different matches. Furthermore I miss the Samurai. Were there Knights at gamescom only? That there were no Vikings that’s ok because there was not much time between E3 and gamescom but where were the Samurai? I fear they encountered major balancing issues during E3 so that they dropped the Samurai. Hope to see more videos soon.

WYRDB0Y
08-12-2015, 01:31 PM
The fights were better, like he had a better handle on the controls than the others. The third one was also very good, easily my favourite overall. Those first two are almost painful to watch by comparison.

What he said. The guy does a good job fending off 2 foes and that's what I wanted to see, because back attacks and kills are anticlimactic (except for 2:44 in the same video, that's pretty cool).


Iím a little bit disappointed from the gamescom videos until yet. The same battle from different views. Okay thatís nice and we get some additional information but the video was provided from ubisoft. I want to see real player videos from different matches.

Yeah, and where are the masterclasses, come on give us something Ubi.

Solid_Altair
08-12-2015, 05:18 PM
The fights were better, like he had a better handle on the controls than the others. The third one was also very good, easily my favourite overall. Those first two are almost painful to watch by comparison.

Unrelated, but is anybody else experiencing a time-dilation while watching these. I feel like it takes twenty minutes to watch these matches---which appear to be from beginning to end, since they're showing the respawns and everything---but the videos are all seven-and-a-half-ish minutes. Could just be editing I'm not picking up on, or maybe the games feel longer because of the combat. I don't know. Perhaps it's just my brain being weird...:nonchalance:

Anyway; not important---certainly not a complaint---just thought I'd throw that out there.
I had the same feeling I think it's a complex melee thing. I get a similar feeling in Soul Calibur. In For Honor it seems even more intense. Maybe it also has to do with this kind of game modes usually lasting longer in other games (shooters), so we kinda tend to assume it lastts long in For Honor, too. Makes sense?

I think I was less excited for the Spanish video because it didn't show me new stuff, like the others. I might also have disliked somethings that didn't seem obvious to other people. If I remember well, he should have attacked a lot more. Knowing when to attack and when not to will probably divide the skill levels early on. This reinds me of a thread I mean to start, but still haven't. :nonchalance:

WYRDB0Y
08-12-2015, 06:45 PM
New video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKXujnyvFXI
Those piruettes tho, omg, I hope they cut the frequency of those animations to minimum, it's ridiculous.

naphack
08-12-2015, 07:19 PM
Bloody hell. They keep spinning round and round and round.

MisterWillow
08-12-2015, 07:58 PM
I had the same feeling I think it's a complex melee thing. I get a similar feeling in Soul Calibur. In For Honor it seems even more intense. Maybe it also has to do with this kind of game modes usually lasting longer in other games (shooters), so we kinda tend to assume it lastts long in For Honor, too. Makes sense?

Maybe that's it. Like I said, not that important. Just something I noticed. :)


Those piruettes tho, omg, I hope they cut the frequency of those animations to minimum, it's ridiculous.

I think it's all just the same 'up-strong; up-strong' combo over and over again. He's not varying his attacks at all, which is hard to blame him for, I suppose, since it keeps working for him.

I'm more concerned that the catapult strike (and presumably the arrow storm) is effective inside a building (1:45). If you want to make criticisms concerning realism, I think that's a more blatant disregard for it.

MrJoker.
08-12-2015, 08:04 PM
I wonder if the players will behave honorably and will not interfere in 1v1 duels or quarter will be behind us like pigs :cool:

Mr_Shade
08-12-2015, 08:12 PM
I think it's all just the same 'up-strong; up-strong' combo over and over again. He's not varying his attacks at all, which is hard to blame him for, I suppose, since it keeps working for him.

indeed..

WYRDB0Y
08-12-2015, 10:38 PM
I'm more concerned that the catapult strike (and presumably the arrow storm) is effective inside a building (1:45). If you want to make criticisms concerning realism, I think that's a more blatant disregard for it.

Didn't notice that, you're right, I hope they make it unusable indoors.

It's more of question of practicality than realism, since it's realistic just impractical. Let's say I'm okay with spinning, I understand the need for it being a telegraphed attack. Does that mean we can't get more variety for the heavy attack?

It's okay too if you think this is nitpicking, but if it's a viable tactic (and here it was) then it shouldn't look repetitive.
(Of course I don't know how varied the attacks are or how the combos work, it's just that beginning part was too much for me.)

MisterWillow
08-13-2015, 01:15 AM
It's more of question of practicality than realism, since it's realistic just impractical. Let's say I'm okay with spinning, I understand the need for it being a telegraphed attack. Does that mean we can't get more variety for the heavy attack?

It's okay too if you think this is nitpicking, but if it's a viable tactic (and here it was) then it shouldn't look repetitive.
(Of course I don't know how varied the attacks are or how the combos work, it's just that beginning part was too much for me.)

I understand your concern. It would be a bit boring if you saw nothing but those two hits for an entire match (which practically was the case in that person's case). It could be because it's still early, and it could have been the first time he'd played it, so he found something that worked and stuck with it. I imagine that as people familiarise themselves with the controls, and how to counter things, there will be more variety in the fights.

It would be nice, though, if they had a couple of different animations per attack.

My guess is, their reasoning is that in order to read a certain attack, to know which direction to block from, they can't have several variations of the same basic attack, lest the player be confused, and block where they didn't need to. It would be like if a fighting game had more than one animation for, say, a standard mid kick, and one of those animations looked like a low kick, so you duck to block it, but because of programming logic, because it was a mid, you didn't block, because to block a mid, you need to be standing (this is all assuming there is the ability to turn off the UI, and you'd actually have to watch your opponent''s movements).

Of course, with enough time and experience, a player could adjust to read that attack coming, but then the question becomes, 'Is it worth it to have people adjust, when they could have designed a system that's equally as competent but probably less confusing?'. Sure, it might be boring to see people spam the same move, but it also makes them more predictable than someone who uses a variety of attacks, which makes them easy(er) to counter.

Solid_Altair
08-13-2015, 09:05 AM
Thx for the new video.

I've picked up on a few things:

* The orientation of his sword magically shifts at 1:28.

* At 4:30 we see a new path. At least I don't think any video had shown it so far. It's a cool path.

* At 5:30 we see a player performing a good parry against a strong attack. Interestingly, he is actually standing a long time in the same stance. Maybe that's the way to do it, the opposite of what I thought.

* But then at 5:56 a guy performs a bad parry, even though he was at the stance for quite a while. Dunno. Maybe it wasn't long enough.

I'm suspecting there is some extra command required, that they haven't told us. Argh, the mystery!

And about the spins, I've roughly counted 3 spins in what will probably be 24 comboes. He did lots of a couple of comboes that spin, but a more normal game probably won't have this much.
_______

Edit:

* At 1:38 the guy is interrupted when performing an execution. It looks good. I've seen interruptions looking bad in other games.

* I've noticed you don't gain the points revenue simply by owning an objective. When each team has 1 place (and the othe is being contested), no one wins points. So the revenue only happens when a team has more objectives than the other.

Narnsil
08-13-2015, 12:52 PM
Hey. Someone else have noticed the friendly "fire/damage" in those* matches?

It appear to be off :confused:


EDIT:*

WYRDB0Y
08-13-2015, 02:45 PM
My guess is, their reasoning is that in order to read a certain attack, to know which direction to block from, they can't have several variations of the same basic attack, lest the player be confused, and block where they didn't need to. It would be like if a fighting game had more than one animation for, say, a standard mid kick, and one of those animations looked like a low kick, so you duck to block it, but because of programming logic, because it was a mid, you didn't block, because to block a mid, you need to be standing (this is all assuming there is the ability to turn off the UI, and you'd actually have to watch your opponent''s movements).


Now that you've mentioned fighting games, I guess having the same moves helps with the eSport aspect, if it's ever gonna become one. It could be slight variations on the animations though, but then it's all hand made that's quite a lot of work for parries and whatnot for every character (weapon).

premiumart
08-13-2015, 04:56 PM
Those piruettes tho, omg, I hope they cut the frequency of those animations to minimum, it's ridiculous.

Also the legion does seem to have high tech bunker breaking flaming bouldrs and laser aided catapult targeting systems ( because you can just show em where to shoot and even in a room . lol)

Also beheading ones opponent is dishonorable. Grant them a death a warrior deserves.

MisterWillow
08-14-2015, 07:35 AM
* At 5:30 we see a player performing a good parry against a strong attack. Interestingly, he is actually standing a long time in the same stance. Maybe that's the way to do it, the opposite of what I thought.

* But then at 5:56 a guy performs a bad parry, even though he was at the stance for quite a while. Dunno. Maybe it wasn't long enough.

I'm suspecting there is some extra command required, that they haven't told us. Argh, the mystery!

I suspect that when entering guard mode, you are automatically set as 'left guard' as a sort-of neutral stance (which means my comment earlier about the guy spamming 'up-strong' would really be 'left-strong'), but to parry, you need to time a stick motion with the incoming strike (if I remember correctly), so even though it looked like the defenders were holding 'left', they could not have even had their thumbs on the stick, and (the one who parried anyway) flicked their thumbs in the appropriate direction when they saw the attack start.


* I've noticed you don't gain the points revenue simply by owning an objective. When each team has 1 place (and the othe is being contested), no one wins points. So the revenue only happens when a team has more objectives than the other.

Conversely, I noticed that you can gain Feats from killing AI. It's most noticeable in the Spanish video, because he wades through the mob more than the others, but if you look under the square for the Feat he's about to unlock, there's a little bar that starts to fill as he kills guys. It's too slow to be abused---in that, you probably won't get to Feat four by farming, as you're likely to be noticed by an enemy player prior to that---but for a quick little dive into the fray to get your first Feat at the beginning or on respawn (or your next feat, if you think it would be useful in a clutch moment), it's nice to know that's there in a pinch.

Solid_Altair
08-14-2015, 10:58 AM
About the parry, that's a creative hypothesis. I don't find it likely, though.

And about the feats through adds nice catch. Hadn't noticee. I liked the feature, too.

Deadshot.
08-15-2015, 01:36 AM
Lots of great information to glean from this video - but foremost was, indeed, the disappointing "flaming catapult" that came in point "C".

Perhaps it doesn't have a roof? Otherwise, they definitely need to fix that. :)

MisterWillow
08-15-2015, 10:12 AM
About the parry, that's a creative hypothesis. I don't find it likely, though..

Why's that, if you don't mind elaborating?


Perhaps it doesn't have a roof? Otherwise, they definitely need to fix that. :)

When he's running up the stairs at the entrance you can clearly see it's a fully enclosed structure. The fireball came right through the ceiling without any perceptible damage to the building. :o

Solid_Altair
08-16-2015, 02:56 AM
If you release the stick you maintain the stance. I suppose you also maintain it if you hold guard mode, without addressing the right stick (as the Warden, not as the Oni). I just think that what the character is doing is what matters. Whether or not you're messing with the stick, if the character is in the stance, that's it. I guess (and hope for) a logic where the character action takes precedence over the input. But this is total speculation... and optimism.

MisterWillow
08-17-2015, 02:22 AM
If you release the stick you maintain the stance. I suppose you also maintain it if you hold guard mode, without addressing the right stick (as the Warden, not as the Oni). I just think that what the character is doing is what matters. Whether or not you're messing with the stick, if the character is in the stance, that's it. I guess (and hope for) a logic where the character action takes precedence over the input. But this is total speculation... and optimism.

Sorry, read my post again, and I think 'default stance' would be a better phrase than 'neutral stance' for what I meant---that is, the moment you enter guard mode, you are in a 'left guard' stance (obviously any further manipulation would alter it).

Solid_Altair
08-17-2015, 01:21 PM
That's what I had considered. I'm just hoping the controls won't have an effect on the parries, if they don't have an effect on the character. I think parrying should be an action, not just an input. So, I'm assuming pressing left when you dude is already on left won't make a difference.

As I said, you hypothesis is creative. I'm just guessing and hoping it won't be the case.

MisterWillow
08-17-2015, 08:23 PM
That's what I had considered. I'm just hoping the controls won't have an effect on the parries, if they don't have an effect on the character. I think parrying should be an action, not just an input. So, I'm assuming pressing left when you dude is already on left won't make a difference.

As I said, you hypothesis is creative. I'm just guessing and hoping it won't be the case.

You mean that you wouldn't be able to parry an attack from a certain direction if you're already guarding in that direction?

I think that would put unnecessary burden on the defender to purposefully not be guarding in the direction they need to be in order to block an attack, just so they can hope to switch guard directions in time with an attack to parry it. It would be more intuitive to be prepared for an attack by positioning your weapon where the attack appears to be coming from (in relation to your opponent's stance), and when the attack comes, quickly release the stick for a moment and flick it in that direction to parry.

Mr_Moonstone
08-18-2015, 09:34 AM
I followed your other discussion about parries and always wondered why you did not factor in the momentum of the incoming attack. (correct me if I'm wrong)
So naturally parrying a heavy attack would need a more balanced stance. Maybe in this case a short timelimit is involved.
This would match a risk-reward-scenario where light attacks are faster but easier to parry while heavy attacks are slower but have more impact.

Also seeing that there are parry animations where the enemy's weapon is "attacked" and another one where the incoming strike is deflected these might require different motions of the stick. The first one being a motion of the right stick's center to the gate, the other being a rolling motion of the stick to the left or right side of the gate.

Then again it might even be solely depending if it's a light or heavy attack... Who knows...

As a sidenote to the videos: you fully heal when inside a captured zone.
Also the last healthbar regenerates after some time until it's filled. This also negates movement drawbacks.

Greets

Altair_Snake
08-21-2015, 01:48 AM
You mean that you wouldn't be able to parry an attack from a certain direction if you're already guarding in that direction?

I think that would put unnecessary burden on the defender to purposefully not be guarding in the direction they need to be in order to block an attack, just so they can hope to switch guard directions in time with an attack to parry it. It would be more intuitive to be prepared for an attack by positioning your weapon where the attack appears to be coming from (in relation to your opponent's stance), and when the attack comes, quickly release the stick for a moment and flick it in that direction to parry.
In this case, what would prevent players from simply mashing flicks to get the parry? A cooldown?

I'm actually starting to lean towards your hypothesis.


I followed your other discussion about parries and always wondered why you did not factor in the momentum of the incoming attack. (correct me if I'm wrong)
So naturally parrying a heavy attack would need a more balanced stance. Maybe in this case a short timelimit is involved.
This would match a risk-reward-scenario where light attacks are faster but easier to parry while heavy attacks are slower but have more impact.

Also seeing that there are parry animations where the enemy's weapon is "attacked" and another one where the incoming strike is deflected these might require different motions of the stick. The first one being a motion of the right stick's center to the gate, the other being a rolling motion of the stick to the left or right side of the gate.

Then again it might even be solely depending if it's a light or heavy attack... Who knows...
What do you mean by that? That the input should be early, or late?

I'm also considering a specific input for parries, that is not about only pressing or flicking the right stick. It could be a swoop as you suggest, or something else entirely. Then again, it could be Willow's guess, a flick (with a cooldown), regardless of whether you are or not in the same stance for a long while.

I'm pretty sure it's not just that. It seems the usual "attack" parries (maybe we could agree on "repel") happen only from light attacks, whereas the deflections happen only from the strong ones. Guard crushes, the mysterious element so far, may happen from both, though the light attacks seem to guard crush only in very specific circumstances, while the strong ones guard crush in normal situations, too.

MisterWillow
08-21-2015, 05:04 AM
In this case, what would prevent players from simply mashing flicks to get the parry? A cooldown?

Assuming there is a very narrow window for the input to register as a parry, rather than a block---which I think is a pretty safe bet, since otherwise parrying would be too easy---nothing but the fact that parrying a blow requires superb timing.

If you're spamming the stick in a certain direction, you might block them, but your chance of parrying would be next to impossible. You'd be waiting for the proverbial stars to align while stuck playing defense.

Mr_Moonstone
08-21-2015, 09:08 AM
What do you mean by that? That the input should be early, or late?


Early.

A literal flick of the stick for performing a parry seems unreliable gameplay-wise since you may end up defending to the wrong side by accident. So I would go for in-gate-shifting with precise timing.

Altair_Snake
08-21-2015, 01:34 PM
Assuming there is a very narrow window for the input to register as a parry, rather than a block---which I think is a pretty safe bet, since otherwise parrying would be too easy---nothing but the fact that parrying a blow requires superb timing.

If you're spamming the stick in a certain direction, you might block them, but your chance of parrying would be next to impossible. You'd be waiting for the proverbial stars to align while stuck playing defense.
Quite the opposite. It's like shooting a guy with a shot gun. If you can spam flicks, this favors you and it's gimmicky. Some fight games allow this kind of "timing". Being able to mash does help.

Only in very extreme cases not mashing is better. These are cases of trully superb timing, but definitely not the kind of timing I wan in For Honor, since it's a complex melee game with 8 players. Latency matters more than usual and is harder to avoid (compensate) than in shooters. The more the stary from using sharp timing, the better.

So, if they go with a flick, I think making it not so sharp and adding a cooldown would be the way to go.

And I'm now remembering how some Oni executed some parries, without their HUD shifting/bliking. This is a clue against the flicking hypothesis. However, it's possible that players can flick quickly enough so that the Oni can keep his stance (instead of returning to neutral and getting back to the stance).

MisterWillow
08-21-2015, 09:13 PM
Quite the opposite. It's like shooting a guy with a shot gun. If you can spam flicks, this favors you and it's gimmicky. Some fight games allow this kind of "timing". Being able to mash does help.

The only fighting game I can think of (off the top of my head) where spamming presses favours you is Dead or Alive, where you can spam for a reversal, and that only works, really, because they give you an enormous window for it to be effective.

I recently finished Styx: Master of Shadows, and I was thinking of that parry system, in terms of timing, in relation to how parrying would work here. Anyone who's played that will tell you that it is incredibly disadvantageous to mash the parry button. It might work every once in a while, but you really have to have your timing down to do good in a duel.

And I think 'flick' is the wrong word, at least as a literal descriptor. What I mean is just you time your stick movement in the direction of an incoming attack, from it's neutral position---that is, the same movement to make your character guard in a direction, just in time with the strike. So, in my previous explanation, you hold guard in a direction, see the attack coming from that direction, relax your thumb for a moment and then move it back in that direction quickly. Obviously a literal flick would be too inaccurate to be reliable. Sorry for the confusion, but I'm at a loss for a better word.


Latency matters more than usual and is harder to avoid (compensate) than in shooters.

A fair point, I suppose, but that should give them more incentive to invest in dedicated servers.

Altair_Snake
08-22-2015, 01:40 AM
But in DOA and Styx the input results in a specific action, which has a whiff. It is actually bad to mash. But ins some games, you can mash during an attack, for instance, to try to time the button press to when the attack connects. In this case, pressing the button early or late won't result in an action of its own. In these cases, when there is no cooldown, mashing helps. This is very different from when the input results in an action.

In For Honor, for the Warden, if you're already in the left and you press left again, there is no action, no whiff, just the input. That is why it would be prudent to add a cooldown, if they're goin with this scheme at all, that is.

MisterWillow
08-22-2015, 03:04 AM
In For Honor, for the Warden, if you're already in the left and you press left again, there is no action, no whiff, just the input. That is why it would be prudent to add a cooldown, if they're goin with this scheme at all, that is.

You still block the attack you were prepared for, you just fail to parry, and potentially turn the tables, as it were, and gain an opening.

Are you suggesting that a mistimed parry should result in you getting hit?

Lavanterus
08-22-2015, 08:24 PM
New video with this battle.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34Yhqo0mx14

Altair_Snake
08-23-2015, 05:45 PM
You still block the attack you were prepared for, you just fail to parry, and potentially turn the tables, as it were, and gain an opening.

Are you suggesting that a mistimed parry should result in you getting hit?
Nope. I understand it eemed like that. So, thanks for asking.

I'd like for there to be a cooldown. And if you miss and your guard is there, you should still parry (though it'd be a guard crush). I don't there to be a whiff, which would cause the guy to get hit. I want the cooldown precisely because there is no whiff.
__________

As for the new video, thanks a lot for posting it. There are many novelties in it!

0:45 After performing a deflection against a flanker, the guy performs another deflection (while isn't in the auto-parry situation: all directions lit in his HUD). This second deflections is done against two near simultaneous attacks. I don't know how much of this stuff was automatic. I think he did whatever special thing is need for getting the first deflection. And I suspect the second one would happen as automatically only as a bad parry, but he did something special to turn it into a deflection (or maybe it was an auto deflection). And the deflection of the third attack was totally automatic, a part of the second deflection.

There is something beautiful in it. These single deflections working agains multiple attacks are a design masterpiece! I think what happens is that when you start a deflection, the game reads if there is any attack that's about to reach you. If there is, your character holds the initial deflection position (locking swords) untl the other attack connects, then he shrugs both sword away! I'm seriously moved by this. It's so beautiful. Almost crying here, seriously.

And the mechanical good news of this "discovery" is that there seems to be a consistent chance of winning when you're ganked. People can't lock you place and guard crush you, it seems. Even your auto-parries can be good ones. There is still a possibility that you can only deflect right after a deflection, but not after a normal parry or guard crush. I'm hoping you can also do it after a normal parry, but not after being guard crushed. But even being able to do this only after deflections would be good news, too.

And there is another finding later on that also greatly benefits gank victims.

1:11 Parrying a guy (normal parry) gives an advantage, allows you to act first. However, it's not enough to land a strong attack before he can land a fast attack. So, if you get parried and anticipate a strong attack is coming your way, intercept it with a fast attack.

1:41 It seems you have some degree of control over your footwork, even while striking (at least in some strikes). Note the small retreat on that fast high-high combo. It didn't look off and it could provide us with some subtle extra spacing tools. Very nice.

1:55 This is the nother good news to gank victims. It seems you are immune to guard breaks while you're striking. This follows Dead or Alive rules for grabs. So, if dude spam guard breaks against ya, just strike them. I'm also wondering if you're also immune while you're doing other stuff, like parrying, or recovering from attacks. Great great news!

2:30Some nice friendly fire there, even with attacks that come all the way from the other side. It seems in these situations the high attacks would be more appropriate.

2:35I think the guy died from a guard crush. They do chip away a little health. But I was wondering if they could kill. It seems they can.

3:15 You can dodge a strong attack, after being deflected.

3:21 A 3 attacks combo!!! Note that the third one is a strong attack. I don't think a thrid fast attack would be available from those two attacks. Just guessing. I'm suspecting dual wielders will have more stuff like this.

3:24 It looks like the guy gets hit while in the auto-parry stance (all 3 directions lit, after if you perform a parry). Maybe he needlessly pressed another direction. O rmaybe he simply got hit at the very end of the auto-parry stance.

5:55 You have time to guard against a strong attack, after a stationary guard break (when the guy doesn't throw you). BTW, when dudes throw you, you get out of their range, unless you hit a wall or something... then they can land a guaranteed strong attack (happened in another video). And stationary guard breaks guarantee a fast attack (happened in another video, too).

5:56 A clash of guard brakes.

5:58 Like in 1:41. But this one was a bigger retreat and still looked OK.

Extremely informative video!

Let me play the beta, please!!!

http://www.google.com.br/url?sa=i&source=imgres&cd=&ved=0CAYQjBwwAGoVChMI8q-zz9S_xwIVSY2QCh3KnAdS&url=http%3A%2F%2Fs2.quickmeme.com%2Fimg%2Fc5%2Fc5d 5b517c9a526eb953dd4fd121667040b3512959c8de616ec8f2 f01190d3540.jpg&ei=q_nZVbKuLcmawgTKuZ6QBQ&psig=AFQjCNEQ8NtxNAE4NJ4U-5_kHqwbh5NTxA&ust=1440434987851757

MisterWillow
08-24-2015, 02:21 AM
Nope. I understand it eemed like that. So, thanks for asking.

I'd like for there to be a cooldown. And if you miss and your guard is there, you should still parry (though it'd be a guard crush). I don't there to be a whiff, which would cause the guy to get hit. I want the cooldown precisely because there is no whiff.

I understand what you're saying, I suppose, but if you make it too long, then if you fail to parry one attack/combo, and the cooldown isn't over when the next (series of) attack(s) come, you're at a severe disadvantage, since you wouldn't be able to parry at all. Alternatively, if you make it too short, then you run the risk of negating the need for a cooldown at all.

Example: Your opponent throws a light attack, you attempt to parry, but mistime it. You still block the attack, and your opponent doesn't do a follow up/combo (I'm not sure if you can combo a blocked light attack anyway, or if that only applies to heavy attacks). Instead, they wait a quarter of a second and throw another light attack. If you have a cooldown any more than a second long, you wouldn't even be able to parry, since the cooldown isn't finished---handicapping you in an unnatural (and I would argue unnecessary) way---whereas, if there were no cooldown, if you mistime the first, you would still be able to parry the second. And if they cooldown were shorter than a second, what's the point of having it?


Let me play the beta, please!!!

Me too!;)

Altair_Snake
08-24-2015, 03:17 PM
I understand what you're saying, I suppose, but if you make it too long, then if you fail to parry one attack/combo, and the cooldown isn't over when the next (series of) attack(s) come, you're at a severe disadvantage, since you wouldn't be able to parry at all. Alternatively, if you make it too short, then you run the risk of negating the need for a cooldown at all.

Example: Your opponent throws a light attack, you attempt to parry, but mistime it. You still block the attack, and your opponent doesn't do a follow up/combo (I'm not sure if you can combo a blocked light attack anyway, or if that only applies to heavy attacks). Instead, they wait a quarter of a second and throw another light attack. If you have a cooldown any more than a second long, you wouldn't even be able to parry, since the cooldown isn't finished---handicapping you in an unnatural (and I would argue unnecessary) way---whereas, if there were no cooldown, if you mistime the first, you would still be able to parry the second. And if they cooldown were shorter than a second, what's the point of having it?



Me too!;)
Not if anormal parry (Repel) happens. But if specific circumstances lead to a guard crush, the attacker can continue the combo.

As for the length of a cooldown, it could be short enough to not mess with follow up attacks and still long enough to make mashing non-viable. One second is a very long time in melee. Seriously. If you take a look at a frame chart you'll prolly get a good idea of how much time it is. The cooldown could be shorter than 1 sec and still serve it's purpose.

And I don't think the cooldown should work by shutting down the controls. The guy should still be able to shift his stances normally. Only the deflections would become unnavailable during the cooldown. The other kinds of parries would be available.

BTW, this cooldown shouldn't even be displaye dto the player, because it'd be too short anyway. Just tell the players not to try the deflection by mashing. It should be fine.

MisterWillow
08-24-2015, 10:09 PM
Not if anormal parry (Repel) happens. But if specific circumstances lead to a guard crush, the attacker can continue the combo.

Now I'm confused. I thought there were only blocks and parries, but the blocks for light attacks stopped a follow-up by deflecting the weapon away (but wasn't certain, hence, the portion you bolded) and the blocks for heavy attacks allowed for a follow up by staggering the defender (owing to the power behind the blow), whereas parries stop everything, shirking the attacker's weapon away, and throwing the attacker off-balance, leaving an opening for a counterattack.

Light Attack: https://j.gifs.com/yDZk5G.gif

Heavy Attack: https://j.gifs.com/KBRk1n.gif

Parry: https://j.gifs.com/yojP8d.gif

I would say that you're reading too much into the animations and perceiving the combat as more complicated than it is, but maybe I'm just missing something. :nonchalance:

(apologies for the poor quality; taken, in order, from HERE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=154&v=PaWZw0UTLwA) at 2:30 and HERE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKXujnyvFXI) at 1:42 and 5:08, in case you'd like a better view)


As for the length of a cooldown, it could be short enough to not mess with follow up attacks and still long enough to make mashing non-viable. One second is a very long time in melee. Seriously. If you take a look at a frame chart you'll prolly get a good idea of how much time it is. The cooldown could be shorter than 1 sec and still serve it's purpose.

And I don't think the cooldown should work by shutting down the controls. The guy should still be able to shift his stances normally. Only the deflections would become unnavailable during the cooldown. The other kinds of parries would be available.

BTW, this cooldown shouldn't even be displaye dto the player, because it'd be too short anyway. Just tell the players not to try the deflection by mashing. It should be fine.

I find that unlikely, especially if parrying works the way I think it does. If so, the time it takes to relax your thumb and then move it accurately back to the proper position would be about the same time for a cooldown of the length you're suggesting to run its course anyway, negating the need for it.

Dead1y-Derri
08-24-2015, 10:26 PM
I think MasterWillow is right regarding the Parry and the way it works. While it does leave the offender open to a follow up attack I think they can still block the attack as the window of being defenceless is low.

Altair_Snake
08-25-2015, 12:08 AM
I think we may be having semantic issues. :P

I invite ya'll to call parries by three different names:

Repel (normal)

Deflect (very good, when the swords slide)

Crush (bad, the attacker can continue his combo and the defender actually loses a little health from the parry)

I propose that strong attacks either crush or are deflected.

And the fast attacks are either repelled or crush. Our divergence here seems to be that I think fast attacks can crush and you don't. I had to review some old videos to find it, but here it is:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H52rACMIi5Q&index=1&list=FL7u6K4GNi1t3SbyErVC6dNg

At 6:25 we see a fast attack crushing. The special circumstance in this case was that the guy was taunting. He didn't have his "full stance", although he could still input parries. That is clearly a fast attack, not only because it looks fast, but because the HUD confirms it. Fast attacks have narrow lines, while strong ones have thick lines.

I suspect that another special circumstance is either if you are on auto-parry and you don't deflect, or if you are specificically on auto-parry from being crushed (and don't deflect). There are some situations like this in the video, but one looks to be with strong attacks, which doesn't prove anything... and another seems doubtful. It looks to me like it's a fast attack, but I can't confirm it as the video wasn't from the parrier's point of view, so I can't see whether the line in the HUD is narrow or thick. It's in 2:28 - that third attack seems like a fast one to me.

One thing I don't recall seeing is a guy performing a repel while he is being crushed (from another guy's attack). So, I'd say there is evidence in neither way, for now, regarding the auto-parries as a special circumstance that lead fast attacks to crush.

Aaand I also suspect fast attacks can be deflected in very specific circumstances, which is if you are deflecting a strong attack and a fast one hits right after. In this case I suspect the defender waits for the fast attack to arrive and shrugs both enemies away with one move. This twin deflection was featured with two strong attacks, in the most recent video. But I suspect that if the second one is fast, the result would be the same.

And Willow, please don't appologize for your gifs. They're awesome. You're gonna make me feel guilty for only linking the videos and listing the times. :nonchalance:

EDIT: After re-watching the HUDless developer's gameplay, I'm suspecting the fast attacks can be deflected normally, too. This is a bit scary, since deflections lead to a guaranteed hit.

MisterWillow
08-25-2015, 02:33 AM
I think we may be having semantic issues. :P

I invite ya'll to call parries by three different names:

Repel (normal)

Deflect (very good, when the swords slide)

Crush (bad, the attacker can continue his combo and the defender actually loses a little health from the parry)

For the sake of clarity, and making sure we all understand each other, I think what you're referring to as Repel is a standard block against a light attack, what you're referring to as Crush is a standard block against a heavy attack, and what you're referring to as Deflect is a well-timed parry.

Meaning, I don't think you can Repel a heavy attack, or get Crushed by a light attack, but you can Deflect both if your timing is right.


And the fast attacks are either repelled or crush. Our divergence here seems to be that I think fast attacks can crush and you don't. I had to review some old videos to find it, but here it is:

I just wasn't sure if a fast attack could stagger or not. However, I browsed a few vids quickly and failed to find an instance of it, which leads into your video:


At 6:25 we see a fast attack crushing. The special circumstance in this case was that the guy was taunting. He didn't have his "full stance", although he could still input parries. That is clearly a fast attack, not only because it looks fast, but because the HUD confirms it. Fast attacks have narrow lines, while strong ones have thick lines.

You mean this (6:23-6:26)?

https://j.gifs.com/KeZo79.gif

If so, then I'll have to disagree. The attack indicator appears 'thick' to me, indicating a strong attack (anyone else want to confirm which it is? compare with the first gif in my last post), and the attacker takes a step backward and then attacks (I think maybe a dash/attack combo), which appears to cause him to sprint forward and close the distance (which could apply to a light attack as well I suppose), which is great for strategy, and, if it is a light attack, could be the circumstance you're referring to, rather than the fact the defender is taunting.


And Willow, please don't appologize for your gifs. They're awesome. You're gonna make me feel guilty for only linking the videos and listing the times. :nonchalance:

I just wish they were as smooth as the actual videos, so they were more representative and potentially clearer. I tried to make gfys to link, but kept getting error messages.

Fun fact, though: If you put 'gif' between 'www.' and 'youtube' (so it looks like 'www.gifyoutube.com') on any video, it takes you to a gif maker where you can select the start point and length.

Altair_Snake
08-28-2015, 02:15 AM
Whoah! You're right! It is a strong attack (thick line). I suppose the cut itself is fast, but the backstep is included in its duration, which makes the technique slow enough to be a strong attack. Nice catch. It does sem to simplify things:

Fast attacks are normally blocked. Strong attacks normally crush. Both can be deflected, which seems to be about input, not about the situation. Now all we need is to confirm if it really is an input and which input it is.

Thanks a lot, dude! And thanks for the tips on making gifs, too.

MisterWillow
08-28-2015, 03:39 AM
Now all we need is to confirm if it really is an input and which input it is.

Still think it's a motion of your weapon (of the stick) timed to an incoming attack. We'll have to wait for the beta, I guess, or at least the Q&A Fatal's doing.


Thanks a lot, dude! And thanks for the tips on making gifs, too.

No problem. ;)