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View Full Version : KMS Graf Zeppelin: Competitive design?



SkyChimp
06-10-2004, 08:35 PM
I know, it's not Japanese, but what the hey.


http://members.cox.net/us.fighters/kms.jpg
Looks like the USN grossly over-estimated the weight of Graf Zeppelin.

http://www.german-navy.de/pics/smb/grafzeppelin.gif
https://www.modelsforsale.com/listphotos/RR5000.jpg

Maybe?
http://m2reviews.cnsi.net/reviews/axis/luft/scz262ta.jpg

Regards,
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SkyChimp
06-10-2004, 08:35 PM
I know, it's not Japanese, but what the hey.


http://members.cox.net/us.fighters/kms.jpg
Looks like the USN grossly over-estimated the weight of Graf Zeppelin.

http://www.german-navy.de/pics/smb/grafzeppelin.gif
https://www.modelsforsale.com/listphotos/RR5000.jpg

Maybe?
http://m2reviews.cnsi.net/reviews/axis/luft/scz262ta.jpg

Regards,
http://members.cox.net/us.fighters/halfstaff.gif

-HH-Dubbo
06-11-2004, 02:36 AM
Very interesting read Skychimp. Would be an intersting "What if?"

http://www.angelfire.com/falcon/nightschpanker/crashoz.jpg
Kermit the Frog is actually a south paw.

owlwatcher
06-11-2004, 09:31 AM
The ship would have had a good speed.
I do not think the Germans had enough experience with carriers for it to be effective.
Personaly would prefer a larger air group, but for the Atlantic maybe a smaller air group would have been suffient.
What was Goring gonna say with The german Navy having planes?
It would have been a match for a British CV but not a US or Japs, CV.
How much fuel was carried?

Ruy Horta
06-11-2004, 11:17 AM
Find someone willing to model her and I can supply plenty of detailed material.

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Ruy Horta

Stuntie
06-12-2004, 01:12 PM
With most of her possible escorts sunk or hiding in Norway, she would have been a sitting duck. The Royal Navy would have been queing up ready for her when she sailed. You need to get out into the Atlantic to do some good. Remember the Bismark - found and engaged before she could break out (even if the initial engaement didn't go too well...). That was just two ships. try hiding a task force.

Assuming of course that the kind of constant attacks the Tirpitz endured didn't cripple her first.

Abandoning her construction was one the Krigsmarines smartest moves.

Cheers.
Stuntie

IV_JG51_Razor
06-12-2004, 01:38 PM
It's a good thing the Kriegsmarine didn't get involved in Naval Aviation until the beginning of the War. Imagine what the Bismark could have done with a carrier along for the ride (or vise versa). I'm thinking that the Royal Navy would have had a much harder time keeping the Kriegsmarine bottled up in the North Sea. Talk about 'what ifs'!! Can you imagine what it might have been like if the Germans has a couple of carrier groups prowling around out in the Atlantic at the beginning of the war?!!

Razor
IV/JG51 Intelligence Officer
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"Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from poor judgement"

SkyChimp
06-12-2004, 02:39 PM
It would an interesting scenerio.

Or maybe a join-up of Japanese ships and the Graf Zeppelin. I found this interesting story on the net:

The Graf Zeppelin, on the other hand, had a long and glorious career in several oceans. While the British worried over the breakout of the Bismarck in Northern waters, Graf Zeppelin and several light cruisers made a carefully-planned simultaneous dash through the English Channel to the South Atlantic. All her attack aircraft were land-bound in France and only fighter aircraft were aboard, taken from every Naval Fighter Geschwader for the occasion. The land-based Luftwaffe cooperated and helped cover her, too. After she passed the Channel and was safely out in the Atlantic, her extra fighters flew back to France, and her bombers joined her. GZ's aircraft were able to sink shadowing cruisers and snooping Catalina flying boats to keep the British guessing as to their location. While Bismarck triumphantly returned to Brest, GZ was finding and sinking merchant ships off Africa and even refuelling her little squadron from a captured tanker. In late December, 1941, GZ made a high-speed run into the southern Caribbean. Her planes, equipped with oversized drop tanks to allow a more fuel-consuming, under-the-radar low-level approach, torpedoed the ship-like locks of the Panama Canal and bombed the sole power plant, effectively crippling the canal for six months. This glorious exploit electrified the German High Command and speeded up the conversion of the heavy carrier Europa.

In Argentina, an advanced party of German mechanics and reserve pilots had finished assembling and testing the crated new Heinkel He-100T-1R fighters shipped there in anticipation of Graf Zeppelin's arrival. Her highly modified "experienced" Messerschmitt Bf-109T-3R's were given over to Argentina and with her new fighters, GZ headed 'round the Horn for the Pacific.

Refuelling from an Argentine tanker near the Galapagos Islands, GZ continued on toward Samoa where she encountered the battleship Pennsylvania, the seaplane tender Curtiss, and some light cruisers of the US Navy. She kept her distance as good carriers should, sunk the Curtiss to keep her aircraft from shadowing the Germans, and damaged the BB with air raids. Nearing the huge Japanese base at Truk, her crew was gladdened by the sight of German reconnaisance aircraft of Kommando Marschall escorting her in. Fleet Admiral Yamaguchi, Grossadmiral Marschall himself, and the Japanese base commander were all piped aboard to welcome the Graf Zeppelin as an addition to the Combined Fleet, and eagerly inspected the vessel, comparing it favorably to the Japanese carrier Katsuragi.

With some aircraft ferried in by Pommern and some flown or shipped over, the Kommando had been training with the Japanese for over a year. Planning for this day, the Germans and Japanese had pooled their resources to make Junkers Jumo in-line engines for Japan. Now a new Jumo-engined D4J1 "See Stuka", code-named "Irene" by the Allies, became the prime dive-bomber for both Japanese and German carriers. Their common torpedo bomber was the Jumo-enhanced "Kate" ("Katrina" in Germany) that was getting obsolescent as the newer, all-Japanese "Grace" bomber finished evaluations. Each stuck with their favorite fighter aircraft, and pilots raced and tested each other's planes.

In a "warm-up" battle in the South Pacific with the Rengo Kantai (Combined Fleet), the Graf Zeppelin was exposed to the dazzling circus of a multi-carrier task force's attacks and defense. Her aircraft managed to sink an American heavy cruiser and put hits in the Enterprise, but aircraft losses were heavy. When the Japanese made another run to Ceylon and beyond, the Graf Zeppelin accompanied the speedy Japanese fleet and fought in a huge international sea battle. She put the Dutch carrier Molucca out of commision, but took a large bomb hit herself. Although tempted to continue on to return to their homeland, the crew of GZ learned that the war at sea in the Atlantic had turned against the Axis, with the Allies dominant everywhere beyond the immediate shores of northern Europe, and that to attempt a return by herself would be suicidal, especially in light of recent battle damage and pilot attrition. Repairing in Singapore, GZ was assigned to convoy duty in Indonesia while new pilots (mainly Japanese, now) were assigned and trained. As the juggernaut of American seapower rolled over the former German possessions in the Marshall Islands, the Graf Zeppelin responded along with most of the available Japanese carrier fleet. Too late to stop the invasion or to prevent the airfields from being used by the Americans, the Fleet was decimated by the onslaught of American airpower, and Graf Zeppelin succumbed to successful attacks by US Marine dive bombers despite the furious fighter defense put up by her Heinkels.

Regards,
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Ruy Horta
06-12-2004, 04:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SkyChimp:
the Fleet was decimated by the onslaught of American airpower, and Graf Zeppelin succumbed to successful attacks by US Marine dive bombers despite the furious fighter defense put up by her Heinkels.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

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jensenpark
06-12-2004, 04:04 PM
cool as always Chimp...

Any idea if Germans had any planes on the drawing board for this beast...

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Buzz Beurling flying his last sortie over Malta, Oct.24, 1942

arcadeace
06-12-2004, 04:08 PM
Thanks Chimp, it was new to me and enjoyable http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/222_1082457373_222_1082441075_airaces.jpg

Ruy Horta
06-12-2004, 04:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jensenpark:
Any idea if Germans had any planes on the drawing board for this beast...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just look these up on google

Ar 195
Ar 197
Fi 167
Ju 87 C (later also D-5)
Bf 109 T

Some of these do not compare all to badly against their FAA counterpart.

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Ruy Horta

WOLFMondo
06-12-2004, 07:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by owlwatcher:
The ship would have had a good speed.
I do not think the Germans had enough experience with carriers for it to be effective.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Got to agree there, they would have been lucky to have got it all the bugs out on the shake down of the ship, German engineering was excellent but... Then once put to sea they would have 0% actual aircraft carrier operations experiance to draw upon. Only that which they may have learnt from studying allied and Japanese operations with them.

The Royal Navy would have had it for breakfast.

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Cess_Wizard
06-13-2004, 07:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rhorta:
Find someone willing to model her and I can supply plenty of detailed material.

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Ruy Horta
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It has been modelled but not sure if the model is still in existence after Oleg said he did not want it - but this was before PF and carriers were announced

http://www.netwings.org/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=731&forum=DCForumID43