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zugfuhrer
03-02-2004, 12:00 PM
As far as I know the german weapon industri made very good weapons. Did they found any weapons that where good they copied it, like the 12cm russian mortar, the bazooka the rocket artillery etc etc.

Their sturmgewehr 44 became was the origne to the AK47, the MG34 became the MG43, still in use.
They used active IR for fight in darkness. With all their skills;

why didnt they made the best aircraft guns, and when they found out that the russian guns where better, why didnt they copy them.
http://www.aviation.ru/gun/

LW persisted in using the boom and zoom tactics throughout the war, they never constructed any "Yak- or Spitfiretypes", agile curvfighters although that they lost the Battle of Britain and lost air superiority in 1943 to low altitude agile curvfighters.

zugfuhrer
03-02-2004, 12:00 PM
As far as I know the german weapon industri made very good weapons. Did they found any weapons that where good they copied it, like the 12cm russian mortar, the bazooka the rocket artillery etc etc.

Their sturmgewehr 44 became was the origne to the AK47, the MG34 became the MG43, still in use.
They used active IR for fight in darkness. With all their skills;

why didnt they made the best aircraft guns, and when they found out that the russian guns where better, why didnt they copy them.
http://www.aviation.ru/gun/

LW persisted in using the boom and zoom tactics throughout the war, they never constructed any "Yak- or Spitfiretypes", agile curvfighters although that they lost the Battle of Britain and lost air superiority in 1943 to low altitude agile curvfighters.

JG26Red
03-02-2004, 12:12 PM
Originally posted by zugfuhrer:
As far as I know the german weapon industri made very good weapons. Did they found any weapons that where good they copied it, like the 12cm russian mortar, the bazooka the rocket artillery etc etc.

Their sturmgewehr 44 became was the origne to the AK47, the MG34 became the MG43, still in use.
They used active IR for fight in darkness. With all their skills;

why didnt they made the best aircraft guns, and when they found out that the russian guns where better, why didnt they copy them.
http://www.aviation.ru/gun/

LW persisted in using the boom and zoom tactics throughout the war, they never constructed any "Yak- or Spitfiretypes", agile curvfighters although that they lost the Battle of Britain and lost air superiority in 1943 to low altitude agile curvfighters.

just a FYI... the only thing common about the AK47 and MP44 is they are assualt guns, MP being the first ever... thats it, totally diff designs thou...

also, they didnt lose BOB britian because of spits and hurris being better turners, many reasons, one being 109 didnt have enough gas... here something to think about... if 190 A was around in BOB britian the outcome could have been alot diff... and it could have, but 190 was just a backup that they didnt really push it like they could have...

JG26Red
03-02-2004, 12:15 PM
...

Franzen
03-02-2004, 12:21 PM
If you remember who the leader of the LW was then you'll realize why the LW was a little behind. Goehring was a total idiot and was only successful in emptying his plate and the plate next to him. How can one fly like an eagle when the leader is a turkey? Just my opinion.

Fritz

Jippo01
03-02-2004, 01:34 PM
The whole thread starts from the notion that Russian aircraft weaponry was superior. If it wasn't superior, why should have they copied it at all.

How and why were Russian aircraft weapons superior to German products?


-jippo

LeLv28 - Fighting for independency since 2002
http://www.lelv28.com

Falkster's Ju-88 fan site:
www.ju88.de.tf

zugfuhrer
03-03-2004, 06:12 AM
Originally posted by JG26Red:

Originally posted by zugfuhrer:
As far as I know the german weapon industri made very good weapons. Did they found any weapons that where good they copied it, like the 12cm russian mortar, the bazooka the rocket artillery etc etc.

Their sturmgewehr 44 became was the origne to the AK47, the MG34 became the MG43, still in use.
They used active IR for fight in darkness. With all their skills;

why didnt they made the best aircraft guns, and when they found out that the russian guns where better, why didnt they copy them.
http://www.aviation.ru/gun/

LW persisted in using the boom and zoom tactics throughout the war, they never constructed any "Yak- or Spitfiretypes", agile curvfighters although that they lost the Battle of Britain and lost air superiority in 1943 to low altitude agile curvfighters.

just a FYI... the only thing common about the AK47 and MP44 is they are assualt guns, MP being the first ever... thats it, totally diff designs thou...
What about the twistlocked bolt, gasoperating, short-cartridges?
Take a close look at the design pls

also, they didnt lose BOB britian because of spits and hurris being better turners, many reasons, one being 109 didnt have enough gas... here something to think about... if 190 A was around in BOB britian the outcome could have been alot diff... and it could have, but 190 was just a backup that they didnt really push it like they could have...

zugfuhrer
03-03-2004, 06:16 AM
Originally posted by Jippo01:
The whole thread starts from the notion that Russian aircraft weaponry was superior. If it wasn't superior, why should have they copied it at all.

How and why were Russian aircraft weapons superior to German products?

If you fly a Yak with one 20mm gun and a Mg and compare the firepower with a Me109F4 with one 20mm gun and two MG:s,I think that the Me109f4:s guns is not enough, but the Yak has good killing power.

If that reflects the true facts, I dont know.

I have experienced that the only favours that comes out of the german construction is; It climbs better at 5k+ it is faster so you can outdive your enemy.

You need to have hight advantages before you attack, unless you attack bombers with fighters.
If you have a russian fighter on your close six the best way to get out of trouble is to dive, and then you are away from the battle for enough minutes to allow the other side to fulfill its mission.

If two equal skilled teams of russians and germans encounters each other for a intercept/escort mission below 3000m and meets head to head, the russian team wins mostly.



-jippo

LeLv28 - Fighting for independency since 2002
http://www.lelv28.com

Falkster's Ju-88 fan site:
www.ju88.de.tf

[This message was edited by zugfuhrer on Wed March 03 2004 at 05:27 AM.]

VW-IceFire
03-03-2004, 07:00 AM
This site: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/8217/fgun/fgun-in.html and one other have me convinced that Russian weaponry was superior to German types. The ShVAK is probably the best (except for the B-20) 20mm on the list in terms of overall ability and some other stuff that isn't mentioned there (it tended to still work even under dusty and dirty conditions). The Hispano Mark V is probably number two on the list except that I know it did suffer somwhat from dirt and jamming problems (although the Mark V fixed some of what was wrong with the very early Hispano 20mm). The MG151/20 is probably third on the list...it had some great points but it just wasn't quite as good overall based on how I'm reading the numbers.

The UBS and the ShKAS are also the top weapons in their class as well. It sort of explains why their aircraft were generally not as well armed as American, British, and German types.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/temp_sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

Franzen
03-03-2004, 07:02 AM
Another reason for the outcome of the BOB was that the LW never really gave much effort to attacking Britain's radar installations. Blame Goering. The planning was so bad in fact that many of the military leaders resigned before the actual battle. Also, had the LW continued a little longer the outcome would have also been very different. Bad leadership, not bad weapons.

Fritz

Bewolf
03-03-2004, 07:09 AM
Radar installations were attacked. But the bombing caused little damage and the Radars could be rebuilt in a matter of days. Therefore the Luftwaffe concentrated on Fighter Command Centers and airfields, being much more effective here.
The RAF was on the edge already when Hitler targeted London, giving the RAF enough time to reorganize.

Bewolf

Never discuss with stupid people.
They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Franzen
03-03-2004, 07:32 AM
That's what I meant. I guess I should have said "they were never efficiently attacked". That would have been more accurate. I still blame Goering.

Fritz

Jippo01
03-03-2004, 10:22 AM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
The UBS and the ShKAS are also the top weapons in their class as well.

According to some Finnish veteran pilots UBS could only be fired in very short bursts, or it would jam. Problem was very bad, weapon was jammed on every occasion until they learned the trick. To me such weapon is not a good weapon, it is a bad weapon if doesn't work.

Question is if we know for a fact that russian guns were superior or not, or do we just assume so?


-jippo

LeLv28 - Fighting for independency since 2002
http://www.lelv28.com

Falkster's Ju-88 fan site:
www.ju88.de.tf

Cossack_UA
03-03-2004, 10:43 AM
Don't know about aviation guns, but
Germans and Finns really loved their captured SVTs. This rifle was far ahead of it's times and actually gave Germans a hint to work on the assault rifle.
Germans also loved Shpagin's submachine gun. Some think because of it's 71 round drum magazine.

Jippo01
03-03-2004, 11:04 AM
"The SVT rifles first saw combat use in the Winter War (1939- 40) invasion of Finland. They did not perform very well, as with other Russian weapons, the Finns acquired many SVT rifles, "only jammed and dropped once." Part of the problem may have been heavy grease applied at the factory, which gummed up and jammed the action in the cold weather. The fluted chambers on later SVT-40 rifles may have been an attempt to correct for extraction problems experienced in Finland."

http://webideas.com/tokarev/eng/

Again the same question: "Do we know or do we assume?"


-jippo

LeLv28 - Fighting for independency since 2002
http://www.lelv28.com

Falkster's Ju-88 fan site:
www.ju88.de.tf

Fillmore
03-03-2004, 11:05 AM
ShKAS is certainly way better than MG17, but it is much more modern too isn't it? According to that website MG81 is better than ShKAS. But Germany didnt replace MG17s on fighters with MG81, they replaced them with MG131.

ShVAK has higher Q factor that MG151/20, but that does not take explosive force into account. I would call them equal.

UBS is certainly better than MG131, but also much heavier. Weapon weight is factored into the Q, but maybe mountings for UBS are heavier, as is ammo. I would have to say UBS is a little better overall, but it may not fit in cowls of German fighters, and I would rather have 2xMG131 than 1xUBS.

Comparing 109F4 to Yak isn't fair as in this game rifle calibre MGs are fairly useless. If you compare 109G6 with 1xMG151/20 + 2xMG131 to a plane with 1xShVAK and 1xUBS it is more even. The German combo has 620.8 muzzle energy and weighs 76kg., VVS combo has muzzle energy 622.9 and weighs 67kg. Advantage to VVS, but not by a whole lot. Also this does not consider explosive force (advantage to Germans).

The Soviet weapons tend to have higher velocities and better balistics, but I think the advantages of that are highly exhaggerated in the game we play due to the rediculous turning that is always going on. When I bounce someone unawares and open up at 100-150m I don't care about the muzzle velocity of my guns. Long range high deflection shooting going on is a result of the unreal conditions in our game, and that is where a ShVAK or UBS is really better.

Certainly the Soviet equipment is no worse than the German, and some weapons maybe a little better/earlier than German, but nothing significant, certainly not worth the trouble of copying.

And the MK108 stands out as being superior to anything the Soviets had. This may not be fair as the Soviets never made a weapon with that role (all their larger weapons were high velocity, and the NS-23 was a very late design). Same Q factor as NS-37, but almost 1/3 the weight (and remember Q factor ignores explosive power). Would you rather have 1xNS-37 or 3xMK108? Those VVS planes with 1xNS-37 and 2xUBS are nice, but for that weight you could have 4xMK108. Next time you fly the Me262 ask yourself if you would trade weapons.

horseback
03-03-2004, 11:06 AM
The Germans didn't copy the Russian aircraft guns for two reasons: the guns weren't perceived as obviously better early on, because they weren't generally well employed, and the Germans were pretty happy with the guns they had. Why fix something that appears to work?

cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

MandMs
03-03-2004, 11:13 AM
I saw someplace that the Russian PPD and PPSh were copies of the Finnish Suomi.



I eat the red ones last.

Jippo01
03-03-2004, 11:18 AM
Originally posted by MandMs:
I saw someplace that the Russian PPD and PPSh were copies of the Finnish Suomi.


AFAIK, not copies but parallel developments. It just happened that before 1939 only Finnish army utilised a large capacity SMG in numbers that would have an effect. Russians noticed the benefits of such weapon in the fighting of winter war, learned their lesson, and started equipping their troops with PPSh's in numbers.

For "Suomi"-fans:

http://guns.connect.fi/gow/suomi1.html


-jippo

LeLv28 - Fighting for independency since 2002
http://www.lelv28.com

Falkster's Ju-88 fan site:
www.ju88.de.tf

Platypus_1.JaVA
03-03-2004, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by JG26Red:
just a FYI... the only thing common about the AK47 and MP44 is they are assualt guns, MP being the first ever... thats it, totally diff designs thou...
...

You are wrong, the AK47 was indeed a straight copy, only a bit adapted to Russian needs.

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge,
ye shall be judged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be measured
to you again.

http://server5.uploadit.org/files/JaVAPlatypus-1java.JPG (http://www.1java.org)

Cossack_UA
03-03-2004, 11:51 AM
Originally posted by Platypus_1.JaVA:

Originally posted by JG26Red:
just a FYI... the only thing common about the AK47 and MP44 is they are assualt guns, MP being the first ever... thats it, totally diff designs thou...
...

You are wrong, the AK47 was indeed a straight copy, only a bit adapted to Russian needs.

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge,
ye shall be judged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be measured
to you again.

http://server5.uploadit.org/files/JaVAPlatypus-1java.JPG (http://www.1java.org)



your are wrong. AK-47 is not a copy of MP44.

Bogun
03-03-2004, 01:07 PM
I have problems with definition of â"better gunâ"ťâ...
Better for what? If better overall, then yes, Russian aircraft armament was better, but there were some aspects German guns were better at, like being easier to synchronize due to many being electrically primed, etc. Germans put a lot of effort into developing and in many aspects they were way ahead of the whole world. Weapons like Mauser MG-213 didnâ't have little time to become most awesome aircraft weapon of the WW2.

Was the ShKAS better then MG17? – Yes!
Was the ShKAS better then MG81? – No!
Was UBS better then MG131? – Yes, many times over!
Was ShVAK better then MG151/20 – it depend, but B-20 was.
It is better to compare ShVAK with MG-FF, its contemporary and it was better.
Was NS-37 better then MK101 or MK103? – Yes, it wasâ...
Was N-37 better then MK108? – of course, it just came too late.

Would finished MG213/20 and MG213/30 better then anything else in the whole World? YES!

PPS-43 was the best sub-machinegun of WW2.
MG-42 was the best machinegun of WW2, no questions.
And yes, the only thing common about the AK47 and MP44 is the name - they were both assault riflesâ... :D

Regards,

http://bogun.freeservers.com/609_bogun.jpg
"The best fighters I met in combat were the American P-51 Mustang and Russian Yak-9U. Both of those types obviously exceeded all Bf109 variants in performance, including the 'K'. The Mustang was unmatched in altitude performance, while the Yak-9U was champion in rate of climb and maneuverability."

- Walter Wolfrum (137 victories)

Voskhod5
03-03-2004, 01:28 PM
just a FYI... the only thing common about the AK47 and MP44 is they are assualt guns, MP being the first ever...




Not quite. The first was Avtomat Fyodorova, 1916.

http://ww1.iatp.org.ua/images/avtoma5.jpg

---------------------------
BlitzPig_Voskhod

http://airbase.uka.ru/hangar/planes/pix/su27vsf15.jpg

Bogun
03-03-2004, 02:34 PM
No, it was.

Avtomat Fedorova was normal "automatic rifle" – it was designed to shoot "full size rifle cartage" in this case Japanese 6.5mm.
AK47 and MP44 were designed from the beginning for "intermediary cartridge".
There were other weapons in development all over the World, which could be considered â"assault riflesâ"ť, but Sturmgewehr 44 was the first mass produced and deployed.
It did influenced the design of AK47, just like it influenced the design of any other assault rifles in the world sinceâ...

Regards,

http://bogun.freeservers.com/609_bogun.jpg
"The best fighters I met in combat were the American P-51 Mustang and Russian Yak-9U. Both of those types obviously exceeded all Bf109 variants in performance, including the 'K'. The Mustang was unmatched in altitude performance, while the Yak-9U was champion in rate of climb and maneuverability."

- Walter Wolfrum (137 victories)