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zugfuhrer
02-26-2004, 03:47 AM
I have scrutinized some a/c data and found to my astonishment that the yak1 and 9 only got 1 m/g and one 20mm cannon.
When I have flown this plane Ive never got the feeling that it lack of firepover.

When I fly the Me109f2 and f4 with two mg and one 15mm f2, 20mm f4, I have felt that the firepower is not enough.
Furthermore I have been looking for figures for the russian and german m/g automatic cannons but found nothing that could explain this.

Was there a constructed reason for this that the german arnament diverced it projectiles by deliberatly, or was the Yak a more stable
platform?
Perhaps because I always gets a higher rate of hits per fired shoots when I fly a Yak, which could be explained by that I get better firepositions with a "turn and burn" fighter.

Is it only my unscientific lack of experience that make me feel this way about firepower?

Have any of you readers of this thread any unbiased way to test the guns of the aircrafts?
Could the use of the speedhack cheat, to freeze the dogfight, make a clean test possible?

zugfuhrer
02-26-2004, 03:47 AM
I have scrutinized some a/c data and found to my astonishment that the yak1 and 9 only got 1 m/g and one 20mm cannon.
When I have flown this plane Ive never got the feeling that it lack of firepover.

When I fly the Me109f2 and f4 with two mg and one 15mm f2, 20mm f4, I have felt that the firepower is not enough.
Furthermore I have been looking for figures for the russian and german m/g automatic cannons but found nothing that could explain this.

Was there a constructed reason for this that the german arnament diverced it projectiles by deliberatly, or was the Yak a more stable
platform?
Perhaps because I always gets a higher rate of hits per fired shoots when I fly a Yak, which could be explained by that I get better firepositions with a "turn and burn" fighter.

Is it only my unscientific lack of experience that make me feel this way about firepower?

Have any of you readers of this thread any unbiased way to test the guns of the aircrafts?
Could the use of the speedhack cheat, to freeze the dogfight, make a clean test possible?

blabla0001
02-26-2004, 03:59 AM
The one MG on those Yaks are 12.7mm MG's.

There is also a early Yak with 2 x 7.62mm ShKAS MG's in IL2.

VW-IceFire
02-26-2004, 07:16 AM
The Yak-1 has 2xShKAS and 1xShVAK and the Yak-1B has 1xUBS and 1xShVAK.

The Bf 109F-2's main hub weapon is a 15mm machine gun. Its more powerful than the 12.7mm .50cal round that the American fighters use and probably more powerful than the 12.7mm UBS round that you see on the Yak-1B (and up) but its not a terribly effective weapon. The Bf 109F-4's hub MG151/20 is an excellent weapon. The two machine guns it has are practically useless (they are 7.6mm and rifle calibre in nature).

In comparison, the ShVAK is probably the best 20mm cannon overall. The MG151/20 is second or third place but the ShVAK has a fire rate advantage over it and I think it hits a little harder (Russians were big on their aircraft guns). The UBS that the Yak-1B has is going to give more firepower than the 2 rifle calibre machine guns on the 109's (until you get to the G-6). In general, the Russians focused on aircraft weaponry and not their aircraft uptil 1941 while the Germans focused on their aircraft and used slightly inferior weaponry (although German and French cannons were about equally matched and the French cannons ended up in British hands).

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Bremspropeller
02-26-2004, 07:31 AM
Hmm IceFire, wouldn't you agree that the Hispano's the best 20mm overall with the Mauser and ShVak being second ?

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Gunner_361st
02-26-2004, 08:06 AM
Here gents. This is a good site on WW2 fighter weaponry.

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm

You'll notice the Soviet B20 20mm and the Shvak are good all-around cannons, with great rate of fire, being virtually identical except that the B20 gun seems to weigh 17 KG less.

You'll also notice the Hispano's excellent muzzle velocity. It travels near the speed of the .50 caliber round, making its kinetic damage very high.

Looking at the 20mm Type 99-1 and the MG-FF you can see that they are very similar in performance, with slight differences, considering as an early poster said, are based off the same gun.

The best .50 caliber machine gun is the 12.7mm UB Russian MG. Cartridge size is not only the largest at 12.7mmx108, the cartridge power AND gun power are the highest, while still being middle-of-the-road when it comes to gun weight in KG. It also has the potentially highest rate of fire, with the Japanese HO-123 and german MG-131 being very close behind.

From a personal perspective though, it always confused me why the soviets made such good aircraft weapons but only stuck on such a limited number, and with limited ammunition to boot. I guess you developed into a good shot. :P Anyway, enjoy gents. S~

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Gunner_361st
02-26-2004, 08:08 AM
What meant by limited ammunition is the relatively small amount of ammo available to the guns. Anyone who flies the Yak's with some regularity knows what I'm talking about. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Captain Gunner of the 361st

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Jippo01
02-26-2004, 12:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VW-IceFire:

The Bf 109F-2's main hub weapon is a 15mm machine gun. Its more powerful than the 12.7mm .50cal round that the American fighters use and probably more powerful than the 12.7mm UBS round that you see on the Yak-1B (and up) but its not a terribly effective weapon. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The ratio in kinetic energy between 15mm and 12,7mm is in the class of 2:1, not less. I have no figures for 15/151, but already Russian 14,5mm heavy MG round has twice the power than 12,7x108 in the UBS. Russian 12,7mm round is then again more powerful compared to American 12,7mm round so the 15mm round is not puny by all means.

UBS is so fearsome weapon because it doesn't have nearly as much dispersion in rounds than the other weapons in the game, rounds fired from UBS hit where you aim while others go all over the place.

Interesting point about RL UBS is that it could be only fired few rounds at a time, i.e. in very short bursts, otherwise it would jam. Finnish pilots had real problems with this gun until they learnt from POW's the method to fire the gun.


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noshens
02-26-2004, 12:57 PM
According to this site the UB and shvak were one of the best if not the best in each cateogry.

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/8217/fgun/fgun-pe.html

scroll in the middle for 20mm and 12mm.