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ProkyBrambora
07-29-2015, 12:33 PM
Searched for this on the forum and was quite surprised that I did not found thit.

One of the first things I noticed in the demo of the gameplay was that the samurai warrior wore the katana like a sabre. The game is not obviously going for realism. But I feel this has to be said. Especialy when the game tries to picture some kind of samurai.

Katana was worn with the edge of the sword up so it was drawn with different technique than classic medieval sword.
Here is a picture
http://za-zen.nl/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Katana-wearing1.jpg

Funnily enough Xena got it right:
https://images.t-nation.com/forum_images/2/4/249e2-Xena_Katana.jpg

You can also see how the katana is drawn there. (Good girl Xena)


All that would have to change except the position of the sheathed blade is the first strike of a samurai warriors to corespond with the starting position of the blade before cutting.
This is small detail in many eyes but it irks me to see it almost everywhere.

Still I am no ninja/japan/jutsu/anime/otaku fanboy or whatever so its ok with m playing with the katana-saber thing. It would be just satisfying for me to have this detail right in the game.

MisterWillow
07-29-2015, 09:32 PM
There have been a few threads pointing this out, and while I agree principally, I find it amusing that for all these complaints, not one of them mentions the fact that they lack sheaths to draw from. They're just holding their blades, which was never done, and isn't conducive to a traditional draw-cut anyway.

http://i58.tinypic.com/2rem9o9.jpg

Maybe if they were gripping the handle---holding the sword reverse---in which case, it wouldn't matter which direction the blade was (in fact, it might make more sense, in that case, to have the blade down; a lesser risk of cutting yourself)---but he isn't. His hand is clearly on the blade side of the tsuba.

http://i60.tinypic.com/2a8q9z4.jpg

Also, I'm not sure if this was the hard-and-fast rule, considering there are a few instances in japanese art, vintage photographs, and whatnot where the sword is oriented blade down, either just worn that way, or tied to armour so that it hung that way.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/be/Tatami_gusoku_Met_14.100.538_n2.jpg/398px-Tatami_gusoku_Met_14.100.538_n2.jpg https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/0e/df/ee/0edfeeb198604dbeb13da1870ca1410e.jpg https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/54/df/ab/54dfabc406e81d1806b36975bac37a42.jpg http://data.ukiyo-e.org/artelino/images/21113g1.jpg

ProkyBrambora
07-29-2015, 10:07 PM
Yes I did notice that there is no sheath. I just did not count that as important as I believed that devs had some reason for not implementing it,

To your pictures. Yes a japanese sword was warn like a saber at some point, but that was not katana but tachi.
Tachi was a sword used from horse back.

One can argue about how a katana was worn at early stages when it replaced a tachi, but I am not really expert on that...

...

But as I think about this more deeply, the style I talk about was probably from edo era, which was kind of peaceful time without wars. Samurais were not warriors they used to be and wore no armor. But still they needed to defend themselves if they were to be ambushed and the style I talk about is much more practical for that.
Now I am just guessing but maybe the "edge up" style originated from this era and the old samurais in full armor really wore the sword like a sabre. Though old samurais used preferably a spear than a sword.

So in conclusion my topic was pointless.
The end

Solid_Altair
07-29-2015, 10:11 PM
Interesting topic. I love how the warriors hold their swords in navigation. It looks very practical. Sheathing and unsheathing all the time would look unrealistic, to me. And holding the sword with a normal grip while sprinting would look uncomfortable.

Do you know if at least the knights used that running technique?

MisterWillow
07-29-2015, 11:00 PM
Yes I did notice that there is no sheath. I just did not count that as important as I believed that devs had some reason for not implementing it,

To your pictures. Yes a japanese sword was warn like a saber at some point, but that was not katana but tachi.
Tachi was a sword used from horse back.

One can argue about how a katana was worn at early stages when it replaced a tachi, but I am not really expert on that...

Interesting bit of information.

...


But as I think about this more deeply, the style I talk about was probably from edo era, which was kind of peaceful time without wars. Samurais were not warriors they used to be and wore no armor. But still they needed to defend themselves if they were to be ambushed and the style I talk about is much more practical for that.
Now I am just guessing but maybe the "edge up" style originated from this era and the old samurais in full armor really wore the sword like a sabre.

Hmmmmm.... I looked into it a bit, and apparently, they're technically the same sort of sword. Their differences are (almost) entirely based on their expense at the time and a change in how swords were fought with/how samurai wore them.

To paraphrase, tachi were rather ornate, and tended to be a bit longer than katana and therefore, fairly expensive. Between the 10th century (Kamakura era) and the 12th century (Muromachi era), swordsmiths began making slightly shorter, less ornate tachi to make them more affordable. These often didn't come with the belts used to hang them from the waist, and in response, samurai who had them simply shoved them through their belts. This, they found, did facilitate a more fluid draw, in which a draw and cut could be managed with a single motion, as opposed to the tachi, as it was apparently very hard to achieve this fluidity with the edge-side down. Now, Japanese swords have their maker's mark inscribed on the side of the tang that's supposed to be facing outward while worn, and in response to a majority of soldiers favouring wearing them edge-up, they began inscribing them on opposite sides.

That really seems to be the only real differences between them. SOURCE (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katana) (and if you click on references 8 and 9, they'll take you to books about Japanese sword history, for further reading, if that suits you)


Though old samurais used preferably a spear than a sword.

My understanding of Japanese warfare is that, like most medieval warfare, swords were secondary/backup weapons. Bows, spears, pikes, etc. were all preferred, since they granted more distance between you and your opponent.


So in conclusion my topic was pointless.

Nah. Things like this lead to information gathering, and could lead to making the game better. You never know if you don't pose the question.

ProkyBrambora
07-30-2015, 06:21 AM
Interesting topic. I love how the warriors hold their swords in navigation. It looks very practical. Sheathing and unsheathing all the time would look unrealistic, to me. And holding the sword with a normal grip while sprinting would look uncomfortable.

Do you know if at least the knights used that running technique?

nay, I dont really know that. But I uppose that while running you would want your center of gravity stay steady for better aim. Because for successful drawing and cutting in one motion you have to aim with the end of the katana's handle to where you want to strike.


To paraphrase, tachi were rather ornate, and tended to be a bit longer than katana and therefore, fairly expensive. Between the 10th century (Kamakura era) and the 12th century (Muromachi era), swordsmiths began making slightly shorter, less ornate tachi to make them more affordable. These often didn't come with the belts used to hang them from the waist, and in response, samurai who had them simply shoved them through their belts. This, they found, did facilitate a more fluid draw, in which a draw and cut could be managed with a single motion, as opposed to the tachi, as it was apparently very hard to achieve this fluidity with the edge-side down. Now, Japanese swords have their maker's mark inscribed on the side of the tang that's supposed to be facing outward while worn, and in response to a majority of soldiers favouring wearing them edge-up, they began inscribing them on opposite sides.

Very interesting.



My understanding of Japanese warfare is that, like most medieval warfare, swords were secondary/backup weapons. Bows, spears, pikes, etc. were all preferred, since they granted more distance between you and your opponent.

Yes, that is the truth.
Nowadays Samurai is firmly linked with katana. But when the moment to use katana in battle came, you knew you were screwed.
The picturing of samurias (or any warrior) with sword as main weapon is really popular now and frankly it was even popular then, simply because a sword is and was a noble weapon.

premiumart
07-30-2015, 01:04 PM
Since there is no sheath, there is no drawing therefore the katanas arent upside down.

flawless

XD

I actually like the fact that there are no sheats since it would be way to incovenient at least for two handed swords etc.
I dont even know if its possible to directly draw a sword from your back.
One could of course argue that the fighting style of a samurai could incorporate drawing the blade.
But Iai style was used for training more than for actuall fighting i guess.

WYRDB0Y
07-30-2015, 01:22 PM
Since there is no sheath, the speed of the draw doesn't matter here, you free to slash at any moment.

Another fact about the blade being worn upwards is that, carrying it around with the blade downwards does dull the blade over time. Especially if you're drawing it a lot then the sheath gets loose so the blade has space to move around.

Then again there's no sheath here so it's not necessary to carry it blade-up. I think it would look stupid if they did that without the sheath, but that's just my opinion.
If they decide to add sheaths then YES, they should wear them the correct way IMO. (BTW those swords in the game look more like O katana)

MisterWillow
07-30-2015, 05:32 PM
I dont even know if its possible to directly draw a sword from your back.

It isn't with a blade longer than about 22 inches or so (depending on the length of the person's arm). The draw angle is too extreme.

http://giant.gfycat.com/FlickeringDarlingEasternglasslizard.gif

Knight_Helios
07-30-2015, 06:41 PM
I attempted to answer this in a thread a while ago:
http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1177251-Error-spotted-Samurai-is-jogging-sprinting-with-katana-curved-up

ProkyBrambora
07-31-2015, 06:27 AM
Since there is no sheath, there is no drawing therefore the katanas arent upside down.

flawless

XD

I actually like the fact that there are no sheats since it would be way to incovenient at least for two handed swords etc.
I dont even know if its possible to directly draw a sword from your back.
One could of course argue that the fighting style of a samurai could incorporate drawing the blade.
But Iai style was used for training more than for actuall fighting i guess.



Drawing from back is in my opinion complete nonsense. From classic sheath of course. If you have some special cosntruction on your back then it could be posible, but still as you have to make big movement with your hand behind your head, it is not real practical.

The iai style as you call it, is not only for practice. It does not make sense to practice something and do something else in reality. That denies definition of practice.



Since there is no sheath, the speed of the draw doesn't matter here, you free to slash at any moment.

Another fact about the blade being worn upwards is that, carrying it around with the blade downwards does dull the blade over time. Especially if you're drawing it a lot then the sheath gets loose so the blade has space to move around.

Then again there's no sheath here so it's not necessary to carry it blade-up. I think it would look stupid if they did that without the sheath, but that's just my opinion.
If they decide to add sheaths then YES, they should wear them the correct way IMO. (BTW those swords in the game look more like O katana)

This is actually a valid point.
But consider this:
Lets say you can carry a sword like the samurai in game does without a sheath. And you hold it as he does (edge down). From this position there is only one quick strike and that is a cut from bottom to top. If you want to strike otherwise you have to move he sword to different position before striking.

On the other hand if you hold it edge up you can strike amost anywhere you want and from more directions.

The advantages are clear. but this ofcourse counts with you wanting to strike from "sheathed" position. If you draw your sword beforehand and face your oponent with drawn sword there is really no meaning to this.
But then drawing your sword just at the last second gives you advantage of surprise. And that is called iai,

WYRDB0Y
07-31-2015, 03:43 PM
Lets say you can carry a sword like the samurai in game does without a sheath. And you hold it as he does (edge down). From this position there is only one quick strike and that is a cut from bottom to top. If you want to strike otherwise you have to move he sword to different position before striking.

On the other hand if you hold it edge up you can strike almost anywhere you want and from more directions.
The advantages are clear. but this of course counts with you wanting to strike from "sheathed" position.


Well, we are talking about unsheathed swords now. So in both cases you'd have about or less than 180 degrees of freedom to strike if the blade is at your side, anything else is awkward for your wrists. Not sure what you mean by having more options if the blade is upwards, you have to tilt your wrist in both cases to achieve different directions or am I missing something?

Havemercy87
07-31-2015, 04:43 PM
It isn't with a blade longer than about 22 inches or so (depending on the length of the person's arm). The draw angle is too extreme.

http://giant.gfycat.com/FlickeringDarlingEasternglasslizard.gif

^^This^^

premiumart
07-31-2015, 06:44 PM
It isn't with a blade longer than about 22 inches or so (depending on the length of the person's arm). The draw angle is too extreme.

http://giant.gfycat.com/FlickeringDarlingEasternglasslizard.gif

Thank You Sir ! I knew it. XD

xMiiSTY
08-13-2015, 09:34 PM
I'm going to take a wild guess here and say that it might have something to do with design limitations. Maybe the animations didn't look smooth, or the attacks looked odd?

I'm just speculating, but graphic/design limitations are a known reason as to why some realistic aspects in different games seem out of the ordinary.


Or I'm just crazy. Who knows?