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Arm_slinger
05-16-2004, 03:05 PM
Is there any plans to include this version? I have to say its seems silly to not have this varient in FB. I know people say it will be too uber, or the it will degrade the performance of the a/c but thats the whole point- trade off. Can this varient be added, but adjust the FM so that it resembles a fighter with 4 heavy arsed cannons.

Another reason to have this is the people who are going to want to recrate Malta and North Africa which saw these versions of spit used. Just because it wasn't used much doesn't mean we cant have it, if anything it will fall to in FB as it did in real life- too heavy. So what it just means people with have to adjust to use it, i know i would use it if it was included.

Any supporters?

http://www.killifish.f9.co.uk/Malta%20WWII/Photo%27s/Aircraft%20Allied/Spitfire_Rukin5.jpg
242Sqn_Kye-
Pilot of 242 Squadron

Sim lover?, want something new? Then look at "Target for Tonight the definitive night bombing simulation ever, featuring the RAF's Bomber Command.

www.nightbomber.com/forums (http://www.nightbomber.com/forums)
Also the home of 242 Squadron

[This message was edited by Arm_slinger on Sun May 16 2004 at 02:37 PM.]

Arm_slinger
05-16-2004, 03:05 PM
Is there any plans to include this version? I have to say its seems silly to not have this varient in FB. I know people say it will be too uber, or the it will degrade the performance of the a/c but thats the whole point- trade off. Can this varient be added, but adjust the FM so that it resembles a fighter with 4 heavy arsed cannons.

Another reason to have this is the people who are going to want to recrate Malta and North Africa which saw these versions of spit used. Just because it wasn't used much doesn't mean we cant have it, if anything it will fall to in FB as it did in real life- too heavy. So what it just means people with have to adjust to use it, i know i would use it if it was included.

Any supporters?

http://www.killifish.f9.co.uk/Malta%20WWII/Photo%27s/Aircraft%20Allied/Spitfire_Rukin5.jpg
242Sqn_Kye-
Pilot of 242 Squadron

Sim lover?, want something new? Then look at "Target for Tonight the definitive night bombing simulation ever, featuring the RAF's Bomber Command.

www.nightbomber.com/forums (http://www.nightbomber.com/forums)
Also the home of 242 Squadron

[This message was edited by Arm_slinger on Sun May 16 2004 at 02:37 PM.]

VW-IceFire
05-16-2004, 03:53 PM
As far as I've read...if the Mark Vc with 4 20mm cannons was ever flown in combat it wasn't for long.

Even the ones sent to the Med, where it was felt that the 4 cannons may be useful to down bombers with, had their cannons promptly removed.

99% of all Spitfires with C type armament had only 2 cannons installed with the other two bays empty and the 4x.303 installed.

The Spitfire Mark 21 was the first variant to come equipped with 4 20mm cannons as standard. We may yet see a 21/22 in the game.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

Aaron_GT
05-16-2004, 03:54 PM
The C wing could also mount 1 20mm cannon and 2 .303s per wing, like the B wing, but with 120 rounds for the cannon. Some VCs supplied to the desert (SAAF I believe) were 4 cannon versions but had two cannon stripped so they were 2 cannon total, no MGs, AFAIK.

Arm_slinger
05-16-2004, 04:22 PM
Hmmm. Even if it wasnt used much at all, it was an offical load out, and should be avaible then. If it was that bad then people wouldnt use it much would they, apart from blatting bombers with it

242Sqn_Kye-
Pilot of 242 Squadron

Sim lover?, want something new? Then look at "Target for Tonight the definitive night bombing simulation ever, featuring the RAF's Bomber Command.

www.nightbomber.com/forums (http://www.nightbomber.com/forums)
Also the home of 242 Squadron

hotspace
05-16-2004, 06:16 PM
Any new Spitfire would be nice http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Hot Space

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/Hot_Space/HSshot3_copy.jpg (http://www.il2skins.com/?planeidfilter=all&planefamilyfilter=all&screenshotfilter=allskins&countryidfilter=all&authoridfilter=Hot+Space&historicalidfilter=all&searchkey=&action=list&ts=1084560274)

Festung Europa Spitfire Campaign (http://www.netwings.org/library/Forgotten_Battles/Missions/index-14.html)

biggs222
05-16-2004, 06:17 PM
i suppose ur right arm, i mean the FW190A9 with the wing mounted mk108s was apparently uncommon, but we see it all the time in DF rooms....so ur argument does have some weight to it.

BerkshireHunt
05-17-2004, 04:01 PM
Four cannon armament was fitted to Spitfire VCs on occasion. Here are some VCs of the South African Air Force flying over the Adriatic:
http://premium.uploadit.org/Minusmonas/4gun.JPG

As the Spitfire IX was introduced for interception duties (middle of '42) Spitfire Vs were diverted more and more to ground attack (well into 1945). That's why you'll often see photographs of Spitfire Vs carrying bombs and sometimes (rarely) four cannon, more commonly two.
I suppose some units thought the speed reduction associated with four cannons was counterbalanced by the fact that the Allies could achieve local air superiority by 1944. They were less vulnerable in their outdated Spitfire Vs than they would otherwise have been therefore, and four Hispanos got the job done quicker.

VW-IceFire
05-17-2004, 04:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by biggs222:
i suppose ur right arm, i mean the FW190A9 with the wing mounted mk108s was apparently uncommon, but we see it all the time in DF rooms....so ur argument does have some weight to it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That is a good argument. Ok...Mark Vc Spitfire with bombs if possible. Attach the IXc wings and keep the rads the same and voila http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I'm still worried that there are a bundle of people out there expecting the IXc in the patch to have 4 cannons which it did not or rarely did. We'll see http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

269GA-Veltro
05-18-2004, 04:21 AM
Bump for this beauty!!! Mark VC is a good bird for Mc 202.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

It would be a great addition!

269GA~Veltro
http://ourworld.cs.com/VeltroF/VELTROVELTROVELTRO.JPG
www.269ga.it (http://www.269ga.it)

jurinko
05-18-2004, 08:10 AM
yep add it, why not.
I read in a Hurricane monography that IIC version was not so easy to fly and quite stall-prone. Hope the FM of such a flying battleship will be appropriate. Now I do not feel any increased weight/drag punishment when flying Hurri IIC.

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Letka.13/Liptow @ HL

PzKpfw
05-18-2004, 09:46 AM
I dunno how common or uncommmon the Vc was but it did see service Ie, *47 Spitfire Mk VC all w/4 x 20mm cannon were delivered to Malta by the USS Wasp. 46 Mk VC arrived on Malta, and saw heavy combat, Ie, by April 21 1942 only 17 serviceble Mk Vc were left.

*See: Price Alfred Dr. Spitfire Mark V Aces 1941-45. p.50

Regards, John Waters

---------
Notice: Spelling mistakes left in for people who need to correct others to make their life fulfilled.

----
The one that gets you is the one that you'll never see.
-----

----

"After 44 we called the new models the 'bumps', because every new model had another bump or hump on the fuselage, which naturally was particularly bad for the flight characteristics of the aircraft."

Walter Krupinski: on the Bf 109...
----

-----
"The damn Jerries have stuck their heads in the meatgrinder, and I've got hold of the handle."

Lt.Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. December 26, 1944.

------
"We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the German Royal Tiger come up on the field".

Lt.Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. Febuary 1945.

------
For Americans war is almost all of the time a nuisance, and military skill is a luxury like Mah-Jongg. But when the issue is brought home to them, war becomes as important, for the necessary period, as business or sport. And it is hard to decide which is likely to be the more ominous for the Axis--an American decision that this is sport, or that it is business."
--D. W. Brogan, The American Character

[This message was edited by PzKpfw on Tue May 18 2004 at 08:56 AM.]

Athosd
05-18-2004, 06:14 PM
I'm pretty sure the Spit VC saw action in North Australia and New Guinea in '43. Clive Caldwell, commander of No 1 Australian Fighter Wing (comprising 452 and 457 sqdns RAAF and 54 sqdn RAF, all Spitfire equipped) is noted as flying a VC in a number of actions around Darwin.
However I don't have any detailed info to hand regarding the specific loadout used.

Cheers

Athos

VW-IceFire
05-19-2004, 07:14 AM
The trick is Athosd to actually find out if the armament was specifically noted as having 4 cannons. As I mentioned before, the typical C type armament used was 2 cannons and 4 machine guns (.303). The wing design was capable of 4 cannons but in almost all cases only two cannons were installed (the Vc's sent to Malta were initially 4 cannon and they removed two of the cannons shortly after they arrived on the Island).

Its likely that the Australian ones were equipped with only two cannons. I haven't seen any pictures of a Mark Vc in RAAF service but I have seen Mark VIII's in RAF service and they were C type but with only two cannons. That is by far the most typical arrangement on a Spitfire.

Also for your trivia knowledge: The way to distinguish C and E type armament is to look at the cannon position. If the cannon is on the outboard slot then its a E type (the .50cal was mounted in the inboard cannon area) and if its a C type then the cannon is inboard and there are .303's in the wings. Although I've also heard that sometimes the cannon was just mounted outboard anyways...so you never know with Spitfires http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

PzKpfw
05-19-2004, 08:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
(the Vc's sent to Malta were initially 4 cannon and they removed two of the cannons shortly after they arrived on the Island).

Avenge"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

After further reading, I'm not sure the inner 20mm were removed after arrival on Malta. Ie, Price states each Vc had 2 inner 20mm removed for the ferry flight, yet pictures from the Wasp's flight deck, takeoff & after arrival on Malta show, 4 x 20mm Vc being fueled, armed etc. Also their are photos as well of Vc, armed with only the outer 2 x 20mm and all other cannon & MG ports filled with wood plugs.

Either way that should meet the requirements for inclusion in IL-2 as IIRC we have planes in game now, Ie, that only 12 examples were made of, as well as planes that never served operationaly etc. The more Spit varients the merrier I would say. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

Regards, John Waters

---------
Notice: Spelling mistakes left in for people who need to correct others to make their life fulfilled.

----
The one that gets you is the one that you'll never see.
-----

----

"After 44 we called the new models the 'bumps', because every new model had another bump or hump on the fuselage, which naturally was particularly bad for the flight characteristics of the aircraft."

Walter Krupinski: on the Bf 109...
----

-----
"The damn Jerries have stuck their heads in the meatgrinder, and I've got hold of the handle."

Lt.Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. December 26, 1944.

------
"We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the German Royal Tiger come up on the field".

Lt.Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. Febuary 1945.

------
For Americans war is almost all of the time a nuisance, and military skill is a luxury like Mah-Jongg. But when the issue is brought home to them, war becomes as important, for the necessary period, as business or sport. And it is hard to decide which is likely to be the more ominous for the Axis--an American decision that this is sport, or that it is business."
--D. W. Brogan, The American Character

[This message was edited by PzKpfw on Wed May 19 2004 at 01:20 PM.]