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View Full Version : The Shaft- A Deeper Look into Arno Dorian



Mr.Black24
07-25-2015, 10:04 PM
A lot of people call Arno a nobody. Just some random Assassin, nothing, or in a humorous note, a French Ezio Clone.
As for me, he is someone much more interesting than what some people are let on to believe, in fact I feel that he is falling into the same category as Connor did during the early days of AC3 of 2012.

Basicly, Arno suffered due to weak story writing.

So I was trying to write up a way to explain my thoughts on how Arno is actually deeper then one might think, however then I came across an analysis that was much stronger than I can ever write. It captured my thoughts and formed it into something strong, which I will share with you here. This analysis was created by tumblr member, Sanctuary of Assassins, and I wanted to share her analysis here, so read on!

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Arno Dorian (1768 - ?) is a protagonist who I feel very closely connected to, as our personalities are very similar and I sense that if he was real we would be very good friends, which is rare for me as friendships do not come easily for someone like myself. So naturally I have tendency to relate to him more than some of the other characters. His story, brilliantly written in my opinion, is marred and overshadowed by the excessive glitches and technical issues that plagued AC Unity. I was lucky enough to have next to no bugs in my copy of the game, and so I was able to see and experience the game that Ubisoft actually intended for us. It was one of the best games in the series.Arno’s tragedy began very early on in his life, much like Connor. Despite the wealth and privilege he received due to his noble heritage, his mother soon abandoned the family when he was still a child, due to her discovery of her husband’s ties to the Assassins. Even though Arno was a completely innocent child, that link to the Brotherhood still contributed to a cause of tragedy in his life - the lack of a caring mother to help raise him during his childhood. It is not the direct fault of the Assassins, but is the nature of their war that causes these things to happen, whether they are responsible or not. Fairness and innocence have no say in the conflict between the Assassins and Templars.Charles was a loving father to Arno, he cared deeply about his son, and on that visit to Versailles promised to take him to see the fireworks after he returned from a trip into the palace. He indicates the time he will be back on his pocket watch, which he hands to Arno before heading off. An object that will soon became the only physical memory Arno has of his biological father.

It is at this point that Arno meets the person who will become the single most significant figure in his life: Elise de la Serre. Captivated by her smile, he disobeys his father’s wishes and the two go chasing through the palace in search of adventure. But Arno’s joyous freedom is cut short by the shocking sight of his father dead on the floor of the palace, an event that would scar him for life. The traumatising sight of seeing their only parent lie dead before them, too young to fully understand what has happened, but the inability to process such grief at such a young age would undoubtedly lead to a deeply affected adulthood.

Arno’s grief also stems from his own belief that he failed his father, by leaving the hall when he was told to stay, and I wonder if Arno had still been there when his father returned they might have left together before Shay had a chance to kill Charles. And if they hadn’t I also wonder whether Shay would have had it in him to kill a man in front of his son. It is something I wonder about in regards to the human qualities within each of the Assassins or Templars, like Otso Berg who has been responsible for murders of multiple Assassins yet the fact that he has a young daughter I believe would place doubt in the minds of any Assassin tasked with ending his life.

Arno’s adoption by Francois de la Serre is important as it showed the good heart within the Templar Grand Master to take an abandoned orphan under his wing and raise him as part of the family. This is part of the reason Arno was willing to seek unity with the Templars later on in his life, because he had seen the good they were capable of doing. Because of Francois, Arno had a very privileged and carefree upbringing, made all the more special by the childhood he shared with Elise. Once they reached adolescence, she departed for a private boarding school in Paris whereas Arno remained at Versailles. It’s clear that he missed her dearly, because of the excitement he shows when Francois informs him of her visit to the palace for a private soirée. And again, his love for her pulled him away from his duty, his responsibilities, and Arno neglected to bring a warning of the impending death of Francois to the Templar Grand Master and so his stepfather was murdered in the courtyard of the palace. Found at the scene by the guards, he was framed for the murder and imprisoned in the Bastille.

Francois’ death was a significant moment of tragedy in Arno’s life and delivered a severely painful sense of regret and grief to Arno not simply because he mourned the loss of the man who had been his father figure, but because to Arno, he had failed in the eyes of Elise and lost the trust of the entire de la Serre family. And so Arno was now alone in an increasingly violent and unstable France as the level of protection and security provided by Francois was gone, and there was no one left to guard Arno against the dangers of the world. He was on his own now.

This is when Arno meets the Assassins, through Pierre Bellec, and he discovers his father’s true identity. After escaping from the Bastille with Bellec, Arno attempts to reconcile with Elise, but it is short-lived as she reveals the extent of his failure. Despair-ridden, but determined to redeem himself in the eyes of himself and most importantly Elise, Arno accepts Bellec’s offer to become an Assassin like his father, perhaps not so much because he believes strongly in their cause but as a means of achieving his sense of redemption. This is why Arno specifically targets those linked to Francois’ death instead of carrying out routine missions handed down to him from the council (such as pursuing and assassinating Lafrenière without their sanction).

Eventually he discovers the threat posed by Germain and that Elise’s safety is now in jeopardy. And here is where the two begin to build a sense of unity between the two sides of their orders, the closest two people have ever come to joining the two sides together. Sadly, we know that it fails because of extremism, and instead of two entire orders being unified under one purpose, in the end, only two people were.

Mirabeau’s death was a tragedy for Arno to behold because it shatters his hope of unity but even more so because it severs the bond he had with Bellec, creating a rift between the two that ends with Arno being forced to take his mentor’s life to preserve the relationship he has with Elise. Truly, it was a tragic way for Bellec’s life to end and an awful act for which Arno was forced to commit. And yet what is even more tragic is the repercussions of Arno’s sacrifice - banishment. Arno had delivered justice to the man who murdered the mentor of the Assassin Brotherhood, but the council saw his actions as impulsive and reckless, and I suspect that some of them might have even agreed more with Bellec’s views that Mirabeau’s. Arno was stripped of his rank, expelled from the Assassins (who had become his only family) and left to fend for himself. Now it was just Arno and Elise, alone but together.

One of the things I think Arno struggled with was whether to help Elise achieve her goals (finding and killing Germain and his extremist allies), which would redeem himself in her eyes but also place her in danger, and that’s what he was afraid of. The other option for Arno is to try and protect her, but as we see during the failed attempt to kill Germain at King Louis’ execution, Elise isn’t interested so much in her own safety and is furious at Arno for letting that opportunity slip through their fingers. So here Arno is torn between helping the woman he loves and so redeem himself in her eyes, and trying to protect her and lose her faith and support as a result.

It’s quite sad to think about how hard Arno fought and still receive the kind of fate that he did. Dejected, and sunk into despair, he retreats to Versailles and into the bottle. Only Elise pulls him from his hole of misery and compels him to push on, because she knows what he feels. To be betrayed by her own, exiled from her order, and left to pursue her own path as a lone Templar. Arno was now beside her, a lone Assassin left to pursue his own path. They had finally achieved unity, and yet no-one was there to see it.But it did not last long. For the single most tragic event in Arno’s life was about to unfold. One of the things I learnt from the Unity novelisation was Arno’s realisation of a change in Elise on that final day. When you have a look at the expression on her face as she is joined by Arno on the rooftop opposite the Temple, you can tell that she has only one goal in mind: kill Germain or die trying. There is no alternative. When Arno noticed that, I think it sent a bit of chill down his spine. Elise is not going to back down or change her mind. For her, this is it.

A lot of people hated Unity’s ending, especially the decision that Elise made to leave Arno and go after Germain. But what they don’t realise is that Elise is staying true to her ideals until the very end. If you truly understand the depth of the personalities within Arno and Elise, you will see how tragic their ending really was. Arno was so committed to helping and protecting her, that even though he tried so hard to keep her alive, her drive for justice and revenge was too much and she sacrificed herself to kill Germain, not just to avenge her father, but destroy the extremism within her own order.

Of course Elise loves Arno, but she knows that he is going to survive and the fact that Germain was escaping meant that she was not going to lose another opportunity, their final opportunity, to bring him down. It’s clear that Arno loved Elise more than he wanted to kill Germain, but I wonder if Arno asked himself the same question of her. That kind of doubt would have plagued Arno for years after as he felt the pain of her death every day. But as she says to him in that final letter, her decision to eliminate Germain was hers and hers only, it was a fate she chose for herself and she was prepared to do that. What’s tragic for Arno is that it came down to Elise having to make that choice, just like he had to make that choice with Bellec. Luckily for him, he was able to defeat Bellec and keep his life, but Elise was unable to save hers, even though Arno desperately wanted to.

I don’t think many people realise how much she truly meant to him. Elise’s death shook Arno to his core and crushed him beyond belief. She had been such a huge part of his life and when she died it was like a part of Arno had died along with her, leaving him a broken man that could never fully heal. He would never completely recover from such an event, and Arno would mourn her death for the rest of his life. I hope he finds peace one day.



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I don't know about you guys, but this truly clears up a lot of things that was indeed a mess in Unity. In fact, there was pages within the Abstergo Handbook that had tasty chunks of Arno's person, that should have been added to Unity for those who still had a hard time to understand him: http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Arno_Dorian's_letters

I don't know about you, but this greatly conveys more of what Arno truly is, and makes me even want to see a conclusion to his story, like closure of his father's death with Shay, even more.

Here is the link that not only had Arno's analysis, but also on other Assassins as well: http://sanctuary-of-the-assassins.tumblr.com/post/111198906624/even-when-your-kind-appears-to-triumph-still-we

LieutenantRex
07-25-2015, 10:28 PM
Something as essential as Arno's personality shouldn't be detached from the frontlines of the game.

Mr.Black24
07-25-2015, 11:33 PM
Something as essential as Arno's personality shouldn't be detached from the frontlines of the game.
I feel like it was there all along, just that it required more attention, and the fact that a portion of it was in other media, it needed more work. But he is there.

VestigialLlama4
07-26-2015, 05:33 AM
A lot of people call Arno a nobody. Just some random Assassin, nothing, or in a humorous note, a French Ezio Clone.

Nothing humorous about it, he is an Ezio clone. No ifs or buts about it. His entire look, his face, that black-vest and white-shirt combo at the start of Unity is Ezio in Next-Gen. Denying this is pointless.


As for me, he is someone much more interesting than what some people are let on to believe, in fact I feel that he is falling into the same category as Connor did during the early days of AC3 of 2012.

Nice try, but no. Arno has no edge to him at all, no shades of gray. With Connor, there is this debate about whether he did the right thing, or if he could have done something differently. That simply isn't there with a Dudley Do-Righter like Arno who voices unearned wisdom right through the game. With Connor, there is also the sense that he could have joined Haytham and become a Templar when you play AC3 for the first time, you think that this guy could have done it, but Arno despite having a more logical and understandable motivations to do so, never gives the impression that he'll do anything the script does not tell him to do.


Basicly, Arno suffered due to weak story writing.

Connor suffered from weak story writing because he was an attempt to do a different kind of character, largely because his creators were trying to put through a point of view completely different from their experience and culture, and given the medium, the franchise and the kind of story they are telling, they would inevitably run into difficulties and so they kind of settled for Daddy's Issues and shoehorned Haytham there as a foil. Arno on the other hand is the writers not trying at all. Arno cannot suffer from weak story writing, Arno's very existence is weak story writing, right from his name, it sounds French but not too French, has the same name as the river of Florence and same number of letters, and syllables, as Ezio. He just smacks of cowardice and laziness.


So I was trying to write up a way to explain my thoughts on how Arno is actually deeper then one might think, however then I came across an analysis that was much stronger than I can ever write.

That analysis proves the point of why Arno sucks. Arno's entire story comes from the Assassin-Templar conflict, he's not really a product of his culture and environment. Ezio is a spoiled Renaissance nobleman who lives the "Good life" with his brother Frederico. Connor is a Native American fearing encroachments on tribal land, and Edward is a poor Welsh sailor in a class-driven society who is forced to become an outlaw against a corrupt Empire and navy. Arno is the son of an Assassin, raised by a Templar, in love with Templar Girl but rescued by Assassin Dad's friends and then fights Even Worse Templars. Its essentially Romeo and Juliet, and not even as good as West-Side Story. After all, Arno and Elise are of the same class and ethnicity. Its not like Arno was middle-class or a working class dude. The story essentially amounts to "if it weren't for those filthy evil poor morons who asked for rights that did not belong to them than the hero and heroine could have lived happily ever after".

Altair1789
07-26-2015, 08:05 AM
I think they tried to make a spin-off Ezio clone. I'm guessing he was meant to be charismatic and look like Ezio, but slightly different in personality. He did look like Ezio though, with the black jacket and white under shirt and all. Overall I liked Arno's personality, he had a good voice actor, and an interesting setting, but the writing was just really bad, and the length of the story was very short

GunnerGalactico
07-26-2015, 08:50 AM
A lot of people hated Unity’s ending, especially the decision that Elise made to leave Arno and go after Germain. But what they don’t realise is that Elise is staying true to her ideals until the very end. If you truly understand the depth of the personalities within Arno and Elise, you will see how tragic their ending really was. Arno was so committed to helping and protecting her, that even though he tried so hard to keep her alive, her drive for justice and revenge was too much and she sacrificed herself to kill Germain, not just to avenge her father, but destroy the extremism within her own order.

That bit I understand. What really got me annoyed is that months before Unity's release, we've already been informed about Elise's death. We all played the game knowingly that she was going to die. It would've made a slight difference if we were kept in the dark about that. But then again, they've always had a knack of killing off the important female characters ie Mary Read, Maria Thorpe, Ziio etc

VestigialLlama4
07-26-2015, 08:54 AM
That bit I understand. What really got me annoyed is that months before Unity's release, we've already been informed about Elise's death. We all played the game knowingly that she was going to die. It would've made a slight difference if we were kept in the dark about that. But then again, they've always had a knack of killing off the important female characters ie Mary Read, Maria Thorpe, Ziio etc

Well Mary Read they didn't have a choice since she really did die in that point in history. Killing Caroline was more gratuitous, there was no reason why they couldn't change Forsaken and retcon Kenway Wife 2 and make Caroline Haytham's mother as well. Ziio I can understand, sort-of. But you know in AC2, Ezio's mom and sister, Maria and Claudia live so that's something to their credit.

GunnerGalactico
07-26-2015, 07:55 PM
Well Mary Read they didn't have a choice since she really did die in that point in history. Killing Caroline was more gratuitous, there was no reason why they couldn't change Forsaken and retcon Kenway Wife 2 and make Caroline Haytham's mother as well. Ziio I can understand, sort-of. But you know in AC2, Ezio's mom and sister, Maria and Claudia live so that's something to their credit.

I do know that she really did die in real life, I was hoping that we wouldn't get to see her die on-screen. Not sure about Caroline, though. We didn't really get to see much of her in the game, except in Edward's flashbacks. Her death didn't do much for me.

VestigialLlama4
07-26-2015, 08:03 PM
I do know that she really did die in real life, I was hoping that we wouldn't get to see her die on-screen.

She's a supremely important character in the narrative. It was highly important that we see her death and Edward be there. Its like Giovanni Auditore and Mario Auditore dying offscreen or us not seeing Yusuf Tazim's body. Mary Read was the most important woman in Edward's life. He didn't change when Caroline abandon him, he changed because of her, and its rare to see that level of respect without any romantic love behind it.

GunnerGalactico
07-26-2015, 08:07 PM
She's a supremely important character in the narrative. It was highly important that we see her death and Edward be there. Its like Giovanni Auditore and Mario Auditore dying offscreen or us not seeing Yusuf Tazim's body. Mary Read was the most important woman in Edward's life. He didn't change when Caroline abandon him, he changed because of her, and its rare to see that level of respect without any romantic love behind it.

I will admit, I am little biased. She is one of my favourite characters and it was kinda sad to see her die and it was necessary because her death provided a catalyst for Edward to give up his life of piracy and change his ways.

I-Like-Pie45
07-26-2015, 08:12 PM
arno is bad character primarily because he is french, and as i have proven, the french are responsible for most of the horrible things that are happening in the world right now such as the gaza strip conflict and north korean human rights violations.

steveeire
07-26-2015, 09:06 PM
Yes Arno looks a bit like Ezio, but to say they are clones is incorrect their personalities are vastly different, Edward has more in common with Ezio than Arno.

Mr.Black24
07-26-2015, 09:16 PM
Nothing humorous about it, he is an Ezio clone. No ifs or buts about it. His entire look, his face, that black-vest and white-shirt combo at the start of Unity is Ezio in Next-Gen. Denying this is pointless.
In body? Sure. In personality? Highly different.



Nice try, but no. Arno has no edge to him at all, no shades of gray. With Connor, there is this debate about whether he did the right thing, or if he could have done something differently. That simply isn't there with a Dudley Do-Righter like Arno who voices unearned wisdom right through the game. With Connor, there is also the sense that he could have joined Haytham and become a Templar when you play AC3 for the first time, you think that this guy could have done it, but Arno despite having a more logical and understandable motivations to do so, never gives the impression that he'll do anything the script does not tell him to do. The entire point of his character and life during that time was trying to protect Elise and trying to unite both Orders into something. Both Arno and Connor's path was kind of like desperation, as they are trying to salvage the life they had, yes Arno's decisions was more straightfoward that Connor's, as his actions are debated even today, but even then he tried to push for a good ending like Connor tried. It was even said in Arno's letters which I linked in the post for people to read, to understand his motives even more. Perhaps I should just rip it out so people can actually read it.




Connor suffered from weak story writing because he was an attempt to do a different kind of character, largely because his creators were trying to put through a point of view completely different from their experience and culture, and given the medium, the franchise and the kind of story they are telling, they would inevitably run into difficulties and so they kind of settled for Daddy's Issues and shoehorned Haytham there as a foil. Arno on the other hand is the writers not trying at all. Arno cannot suffer from weak story writing, Arno's very existence is weak story writing, right from his name, it sounds French but not too French, has the same name as the river of Florence and same number of letters, and syllables, as Ezio. He just smacks of cowardice and laziness.
It was supposed to be Arunad and not Arno. Yeah I remember some of my fellow french AC fans on tumblr rolled their eyes on that decision too.



That analysis proves the point of why Arno sucks. Arno's entire story comes from the Assassin-Templar conflict, he's not really a product of his culture and environment. Ezio is a spoiled Renaissance nobleman who lives the "Good life" with his brother Frederico. Connor is a Native American fearing encroachments on tribal land, and Edward is a poor Welsh sailor in a class-driven society who is forced to become an outlaw against a corrupt Empire and navy. Arno is the son of an Assassin, raised by a Templar, in love with Templar Girl but rescued by Assassin Dad's friends and then fights Even Worse Templars. Its essentially Romeo and Juliet, and not even as good as West-Side Story. After all, Arno and Elise are of the same class and ethnicity. Its not like Arno was middle-class or a working class dude. The story essentially amounts to "if it weren't for those filthy evil poor morons who asked for rights that did not belong to them than the hero and heroine could have lived happily ever after".

Now that's debatable. As many consider Connor worst Assassin as he failed to save his people, that he was too naive and such. You know how it goes, you seen me debate this with Hans plenty of times. When you think about it, both Arno and Connor are failures. Each one could have taken different paths in life, as Hans said if Connor let William buy his land then the people would be safe. I disagreed with that part, but at least I know that there could have been some kind of positive outcome. Arno had protected Elise, trying to prove to his fellow Assassins that she can be of help and perhaps even pereminatly establish a union.

The story of Connor was one of Man vs Society, his interactions with the Templars, his Mentor, and the Revolution.

Arno's story was not only Man vs Society, but also of Man vs Himself, as he doubted himself in his work plenty of times. As show in his letters.

And so what if Arno's story comes from the conflict? So was Altair's life! How is this a con?

Hans684
07-26-2015, 09:40 PM
http://gifsec.com/wp-content/uploads/GIF/2014/07/michael-jackson-eating-popcorn-gif.gif?gs=a

I'll enjoy the show for once. But I have to say something, my name got dropped.


Now that's debatable.

Kinda, his memories however is completely useless.


As many consider Connor worst Assassin as he failed to save his people, that he was too naive and such.

I don't consider him a bad Assassins. He's an highly skilled Assassins, it's his choices and actions I criticize. Him being naive is part of it but that's one thing that also makes him a great character.


You know how it goes, you seen me debate this with Hans plenty of times.

From my side I'm criticizing things most people don't seem to look in too. I'll always go against the grain on that matter, viewing things from more than one perspectives is an easy way to find flaws on both sides.


When you think about it, both Arno and Connor are failures.

Depends on how you look at it, killing an entire Templar Order is by Assassin standards a great achievement.


Each one could have taken different paths in life, as Hans said if Connor let William buy his land then the people would be safe. I disagreed with that part, but at least I know that there could have been some kind of positive outcome.

Fair enough.

VestigialLlama4
07-26-2015, 09:46 PM
It was even said in Arno's letters which I linked in the post for people to read, to understand his motives even more. Perhaps I should just rip it out so people can actually read it.

Letters don't count. Transmedia doesn't count. It counts for lore-folks and AC fans but it cannot replace actual gameplay, what we see of Arno as he interacts with characters.


It was supposed to be Arunad and not Arno. Yeah I remember some of my fellow french AC fans on tumblr rolled their eyes on that decision too.

I think you meant Arnaud, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnaud_(given_name)

It derives from Arnold, which is German/Frankish for Eagle.


Now that's debatable. As many consider Connor worst Assassin as he failed to save his people, that he was too naive and such.

Yeah but Connor tried, and actually did achieve something, he protected George Washington and helped America become a nation. His failure has this air of tragedy. Arno on the other hand, never even tried, he just rolled over and let Napoleon make him and France his b-tch.


The story of Connor was one of Man vs Society, his interactions with the Templars, his Mentor, and the Revolution.

It's more one man against history. Connor was doomed to fail from the moment he arrived on the scene. He was fighting a game that was fixed and rigged before he was born and yet he doesn't give up as even the Templars realize.


And so what if Arno's story comes from the conflict? So was Altair's life! How is this a con?

Because Altair didn't need letters to explain his conflict and inner motivations. All that was clear from AC1; The game. The Codex in AC2 showed him at a mellower more contemplative phase in his life.

I-Like-Pie45
07-26-2015, 10:06 PM
as i have previously pointed out, by allowing napoleon to take power, arno set the course of world history into the motion that would eventually arrive at world war 1 and then wolrd war 2, making arno responsible for everyone liam neeson couldnt save

Mr.Black24
07-26-2015, 10:09 PM
Letters don't count. Transmedia doesn't count. It counts for lore-folks and AC fans but it cannot replace actual gameplay, what we see of Arno as he interacts with characters.
While true, the fact that these letters aren't part of the game is a fail on storytelling, it is still part of who he is. That one cannot deny.



I think you meant Arnaud, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnaud_(given_name)

It derives from Arnold, which is German/Frankish for Eagle. See, I like that better! I agree with you on this, they just looked at the name Arnaud, and decided, those last three needed to be dropped, so they dropped Arnaud, to Arn aud, to Arno!

****in lazy as hell. I'm sorry, Ubisoft, I thought it was supposed to be about cultural diversity and representation but obviously this shows that your too lazy to be bothered with this! I wonder what else you were to lazy to be bothered with.....




Yeah but Connor tried, and actually did achieve something, he protected George Washington and helped America become a nation. His failure has this air of tragedy. Arno on the other hand, never even tried, he just rolled over and let Napoleon make him and France his b-tch.

Hence why we need more on Arno. It has been already explained that Napoleon is a capable person that Arno respects, however he is wary of him and will keep an eye on his actions. They still work together from time to time, like how we saw in 1807.

In fact, this was the same reasoning on why people hated Connor, as they too thought that he just rolled over for George and made him his *****, when clearly that wasn't the case for both sides.


It's more one man against history. Connor was doomed to fail from the moment he arrived on the scene. He was fighting a game that was fixed and rigged before he was born and yet he doesn't give up as even the Templars realize.

Yeah I know, I said Man vs Society, in count of Story telling and Writing 101, ya know life Man vs Environment, Man vs Man, Man vs himself?




Because Altair didn't need letters to explain his conflict and inner motivations. All that was clear from AC1; The game. The Codex in AC2 showed him at a mellower more contemplative phase in his life.

I agree, characterization should always be made clear within the game, even if its hidden like Connor on some points, it still should be there for people to dispher. I really hate how transmedia does this crap, takes like 3/4s of a character, and puts it in books and comics, and not in the game where it should be.

Makes sense with Haytham as we got 3/4s of his deal in AC3, and Forsaken was a neat treat to finish up on a life we weren't aware about. When you think about it, Haytham's life was already firmly established within the lore, that we really didn't need to know his younger years, but when we did, it expanded a lot on what he is.

DA SHIZZLE IG
07-26-2015, 10:30 PM
LOL people will always try to save a bad game(compared to the others). This game was a dud and it was FILLER!!!!!!!! Arno is a nobody because he's forced and has absolutely nothing to do with the main story(remember that?). Arno is nothing more than a side story and the game was just created to test next gen. It was sooo obvious that this game was just a test. With ubisofts track record you would be a fool to think that this game was gonna "BE THE ONE" lol. You should have known it was gonna be full of problems and half the stuff that was promised wasn't gonna be there in the actual game.

The main thing that made arno irrelevant was when he forgot his driving force and what made him join the order in the first place. HE COMPLETELY FORGOT ABOUT SHAY AND WENT AFTER WHAT'S HER NAMES DAD'S KILLER. THEN HE JUST FORGOT ALL ABOUT HIS DADS WATCH LOL!!!! Don't ever compare conner to arno, conner is cannon and arno is filler.

Mr.Black24
07-27-2015, 12:56 AM
LOL people will always try to save a bad game(compared to the others). This game was a dud and it was FILLER!!!!!!!! Arno is a nobody because he's forced and has absolutely nothing to do with the main story(remember that?). Arno is nothing more than a side story and the game was just created to test next gen. It was sooo obvious that this game was just a test. With ubisofts track record you would be a fool to think that this game was gonna "BE THE ONE" lol. You should have known it was gonna be full of problems and half the stuff that was promised wasn't gonna be there in the actual game.

The main thing that made arno irrelevant was when he forgot his driving force and what made him join the order in the first place. HE COMPLETELY FORGOT ABOUT SHAY AND WENT AFTER WHAT'S HER NAMES DAD'S KILLER. THEN HE JUST FORGOT ALL ABOUT HIS DADS WATCH LOL!!!! Don't ever compare conner to arno, conner is cannon and arno is filler.
k

Hans684
07-27-2015, 05:12 PM
I don't think he ever even wondered who killed is father? He didn't know who or why he was killed. Which is what confused me about Unity's story.

He watched his father die, and yet when he found out he was an assassin he still didn't really care about how he died. <--- I'm expecting this to be explained in Syndicates DLC, because WTF.

Wouldn't matter if he did care, there isn't a crime scene anymore and there where no witnesses. So there is no evidence that can point him to Shay. He's left clueless.

steveeire
07-27-2015, 05:22 PM
He is meant to be a highly skilled Assassin, I'm sure he could find out if he wanted to, and maybe he does, but it could be as simple as there was so much going on for him in the game that he just didn't think about it or have time to find out.

Hans684
07-27-2015, 08:01 PM
He is meant to be a highly skilled Assassin, I'm sure he could find out if he wanted to, and maybe he does, but it could be as simple as there was so much going on for him in the game that he just didn't think about it or have time to find out.

Does't matter how skilled he is when there is no evidence left to find Shay. The trace has been cold for years, no crime scene anymore, no witnesses and all who knows of Shay both Assassin and Templar is dead. And he did think about his father, he started to write letters at some point. He cares but there is nothing he can do.
He wouldn't have time after the revolution either, the French Brotherhood is responsible for Napoleon getting in power and him invading Egypt. If(a big if) they meet it would make far more sense to unite to bring Napoleon down. So either way he's not killing Shay.

Hans684
07-27-2015, 10:09 PM
True ;)

Indeed.


Just seemed odd that the idea wasn't explored.

Missed potential is Unity in a nutschell.


He could find out though.
For all we know Bellec or the other assassins from that time could of known. who killed him ;) All Arno would have to do is ask.

Bellec was the one who said there was no witnesses, so I wouldn't be surprised if he tried to look for the killer but never found him since there wasn't any trace leading to him. So no, Bellec could not have told him of Shay.

Hans684
07-27-2015, 10:23 PM
Good point, but he could of known but just to be a d**k and not tell him ;)

How could he have known who that did it? He travel to Paris before the purge happened, so he won't know who "The Traitor" is or know that "The Traitor" killed Charles. Charles called Shay "The Traitor", so despite purging the Colonial Brotherhood he isn't known for it by name since all who knows his name is dead. All he knows is that the Colonial Brotherhood got purged by a traitor after he traveled to Paris and again some point Charles was killed. Considering the fact that all who knows Shay is dead I'd say he wasn't a d**k and told the truth.

Hans684
07-27-2015, 10:57 PM
It was a joke ;)

Pisspot.


Wouldn't be surprised if ubi made dlc about Arnos revenge though and just gloss over that fact ;)

Then they should get own head out of their arce.

Mr.Black24
07-27-2015, 11:57 PM
Bellec was the one who said there was no witnesses, so I wouldn't be surprised if he tried to look for the killer but never found him since there wasn't any trace leading to him. So no, Bellec could not have told him of Shay.

The only structured theory I have is this:

Connor and Shay became aware of each other within sometime, abate there is a cold war between both Orders, and soon Connor's Assassins reveals some information about a FC artifact that seems to describe the Precursor Box, that which Shay now holds. Since the last one who had it was Charles Dorian, he contacted the French Assassins to confirm that if he was the last one to had it before he died. They do, and he finds out that Charles had a son, and a respective Master Assassin in his own right, Arno Dorian. Sympathetic to the fact that he too lost a father, he contacts Arno personally as to not only help the Brotherhood work something out in America, but also give Arno the last stamp of closure of his lost loved ones. He agrees, and travels to America and what happens after that is up the the reader.

Hans684
07-28-2015, 09:05 AM
The only structured theory I have is this:

And typical me I'll deconstruct it.


Connor and Shay became aware of each other within sometime, abate there is a cold war between both Orders, and soon Connor's Assassins reveals some information about a FC artifact that seems to describe the Precursor Box, that which Shay now holds.

Which brings one important question: How did Connor get to know of him and the Precursor Box? Only way he possible could know of Shay is if Achilles told him of his betrayal but Achilles won't speak of his former Assassin duties. If he did he'd also tell why Shay become a Templar, meaning he will have to tell him that his brotherhood us responsible for destroying a city and terrorizing the Colonies with gangs. Connor wouldn't have supported him knowing that. He'd say he's no better than the Templars and they would have argued a lot more.


Since the last one who had it was Charles Dorian, he contacted the French Assassins to confirm that if he was the last one to had it before he died.

That rely on him knowing of both Shay and the Precursor Box. Not much a possibility.


They do, and he finds out that Charles had a son, and a respective Master Assassin in his own right, Arno Dorian. Sympathetic to the fact that he too lost a father, he contacts Arno personally as to not only help the Brotherhood work something out in America, but also give Arno the last stamp of closure of his lost loved ones.

Arno isn't needed to hunt Shay, he has Napoleon to deal with. But assuming this happened....


He agrees, and travels to America and what happens after that is up the the reader.

...two highly skilled Assassins waste their time trying to find 1 Templar while Napoleon is getting in power. Does't add up, Arno being best buddy with Napoleon and responsible fit him invading Egypt should travel there and try to prevent him from getting the AOE again. Arno and Connor working together is shoehorned at best. The Napoleonic Wars is about to being and he will invade Egypt. That should be a higher priority, not daddy issues.

EmbodyingSeven5
07-28-2015, 04:30 PM
I think they tried to make a spin-off Ezio clone. I'm guessing he was meant to be charismatic and look like Ezio, but slightly different in personality. He did look like Ezio though, with the black jacket and white under shirt and all. Overall I liked Arno's personality, he had a good voice actor, and an interesting setting, but the writing was just really bad, and the length of the story was very short

*Puts on hipster glasses*
Technically Ezio was modeled after Altiar who was modeled after Desmond
Arno is a Desmond clone, because so many people found Desmond loveable.

VestigialLlama4
07-28-2015, 05:49 PM
Technically Ezio was modeled after Altiar who was modeled after Desmond

Nope, nice try though. Altair and Desmond do resemble and look a great deal alike (not that it matters because we hardly see Altair's face in the game) but Desmond and Ezio have pronounced differences with only a slight facial difference and even that fades when we gaze at older Ezio (not that its fair because Desmond never got to grow old).

A very slight facial resemblance but they have major differences in everything else that defines a character. Arno on the other hand looks exactly like Ezio does for much of AC2, he even grows a beard in Dead Kings. Arno has a red ribbon tying his ponytail (just like Ezio), he wears a black vest over a white shirt, and his early missions are meant to recreate that whole happy childhood before tragedy aspect of AC2.

EmbodyingSeven5
07-28-2015, 05:51 PM
Nope, nice try though. Altair and Desmond do resemble and look a great deal alike (not that it matters because we hardly see Altair's face in the game) but Desmond and Ezio have pronounced differences with only a slight facial difference and even that fades when we gaze at older Ezio (not that its fair because Desmond never got to grow old).

A very slight facial resemblance but they have major differences in everything else that defines a character. Arno on the other hand looks exactly like Ezio does for much of AC2, he even grows a beard in Dead Kings. Arno has a red ribbon tying his ponytail (just like Ezio), he wears a black vest over a white shirt, and his early missions are meant to recreate that whole happy childhood before tragedy aspect of AC2.

Godamn Vest, it was supposed to be a joke. Tough room. (:

EmbodyingSeven5
07-28-2015, 06:26 PM
Welcome to the internet ;)
You always seem so positive lol.

Mr.Black24
07-28-2015, 11:05 PM
Which brings one important question: How did Connor get to know of him and the Precursor Box? Only way he possible could know of Shay is if Achilles told him of his betrayal but Achilles won't speak of his former Assassin duties. If he did he'd also tell why Shay become a Templar, meaning he will have to tell him that his brotherhood us responsible for destroying a city and terrorizing the Colonies with gangs. Connor wouldn't have supported him knowing that. He'd say he's no better than the Templars and they would have argued a lot more.
Connor has established a strong Brotherhood, and like how they've done for the past hundreds of years, they investigate the target! Like how its always done, ya know? His informants would have gotten a name and information on both Shay and the Box.
Plus its one big unknown if Achilles ever managed to gather the courage to tell Connor the tale before his death. If anything, the story would have warn Connor not to repeat the same mistakes as the previous generation have done, he wouldn't brush off Achilles so quick either.

Like this mistake for example:

"The headquarters served as Assassin bureaus and local bases of operations for the Brotherhood. However, the citizens often suffered as a result of this, as the Assassins neglected to keep the gangs in check, and thus they terrorized the populace by stealing and demanding protection money from the inhabitants."
http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Gang_headquarters

"In your race to save the world, take care that you don't destroy it...."



Arno isn't needed to hunt Shay, he has Napoleon to deal with. But assuming this happened....
Sympathetic to the fact that he too lost a father, he contacts Arno personally as to not only help the Brotherhood work something out in America, but also give Arno the last stamp of closure of his lost loved ones.

He wants to give Arno a chance of finding inner peace, how will this go? Who knows.


...two highly skilled Assassins waste their time trying to find 1 Templar while Napoleon is getting in power. Does't add up, Arno being best buddy with Napoleon and responsible fit him invading Egypt should travel there and try to prevent him from getting the AOE again. Arno and Connor working together is shoehorned at best. The Napoleonic Wars is about to being and he will invade Egypt. That should be a higher priority, not daddy issues.

"For the next few years, Napoleon had a successful career during the crushing of the 13 Vendémiaire uprising in Paris. Despite commanding only five thousand troops against twenty-five thousand insurgents, Napoleon defeated the Royalists through the use of cannons and grapeshot. His successful campaigns in Italy to fight the Austrians caused an upsurge in his popularity.


In 1798, Napoleon embarked on a campaign to Egypt and Syria, with the intention of claiming the Apple of Eden from the Saint-Denis Temple. After successfully retrieving the artifact, he returned home in 1799. Using his newfound power,Bonaparte seized power for himself during the 18 Brumaire coup, becoming the First Consul of France."

http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Napoleon_Bonaparte

Apparently, Arno never did follow him, or failed in the mission. So I took a swing with the info I got.

Plus, I feel like the word "shoehorned" is thrown alot these days, that I feel like it lost its meaning.

LoyalACFan
07-28-2015, 11:29 PM
I skimmed the write-up in the OP, and it actually highlights for me why Arno was such a paper-thin character. Typically, a good story revolves around the protagonist taking up arms or changing their outlook on life in the light of some great cataclysm or tragedy that shakes up their long-held status quo. Regardless of how well you thought their stories were told, the previous AC protagonists followed this model. Altair's story was about regaining his lost honor and prestige. Ezio's story was about avenging his murdered family. Connor's story was about stopping the Templars from repeating the atrocities they committed in his village (though he was ultimately proven wrong about this). Edward's story was about dealing with the consequences of a violent and selfish life that claimed the lives of nearly all of his friends. Arno's story was about... getting laid?

The author of the OP's linked write-up holds the opinion that the sequence of tragedies which follow Arno make him a more tragic character. For me, this isn't true; in fact, they make him look rather selfish and detached from reality. He loses a father figure in Charles, but what does he care about? Elise. He loses another father figure in Francois, but what does he care about? Finding Elise and expecting her to embrace him with open arms. He loses another father figure in Mirabeau, but what does he care about? Clearing Elise's name. He loses another father figure in Pierre, but what does he care about? Protecting Elise. Not only is the sheer number of dead "dads" absurd (and somewhat comical in retrospect), but the fact that none of them seem to significantly affect him in any way makes him completely unrelatable in my opinion. In fact, the only two times he showed any genuine powerful emotions were when he was brushed off by Elise, once after escaping the Bastille and once after he wouldn't help her kill Germain, and even then he was a cliche, crawling off to get drunk after being shunned by his lover. When Elise won't drop everything to take care of his every whim and desire, he just slinks off and gets wasted, every time. He is the single most self-absorbed character in the franchise.

I'm not saying he should have been a "man out for revenge" trope yet again, but if our previous heroes were so moved by even a single tragedy in their lives, shouldn't Arno emerge from UNITY a completely changed man? But no, he doesn't. He just spews some unearned "wisdom" after his kinda-girlfriend eventually (and God, so predictably) dies and he lays some flowers on her grave before the credits roll. And then Dead Kings illustrates that, after burying her, he mopes around a bit but ultimately reverts to the same old smarmy, selfish, mopey bastard he always was.

steveeire
07-29-2015, 12:13 AM
Some of the best stories are about getting Laid.

LoyalACFan
07-29-2015, 01:22 AM
Some of the best stories are about getting Laid.

Not if they're also about political assassination.

Actually, now that I say that, that sounds like an awesome black comedy

steveeire
07-29-2015, 02:28 AM
and it sounds like every sexy thriller ever.

Hans684
07-29-2015, 10:49 AM
Connor has established a strong Brotherhood, and like how they've done for the past hundreds of years, they investigate the target!

That's all fair and good but how do investigate someone or something you haven't heard and has no clues left?


Like how its always done, ya know? His informants would have gotten a name and information on both Shay and the Box.

But how? Is there any information that leads to Shay? Everyone who knows his name is dead, both Assassin and Templar. He's only known as "The Traitor". There is no witnesses after his assassination of Charles and the crime scene is gone. So what here leads to Shay?


Plus its one big unknown if Achilles ever managed to gather the courage to tell Connor the tale before his death.

That's a possibility but it only allow Connor to know of Shay, not his current position. Again, what leads to him? All we know is that he hasn't returned to America and wasn't in the French Revelution. That narrow it down in both time and place but still don't reveal where he is.


If anything, the story would have warn Connor not to repeat the same mistakes as the previous generation have done, he wouldn't brush off Achilles so quick either.

He's already blinded regarding Templars, so if the Colonial Templars are bad in his eyes then Achilles in his prime is far worse. He is responsible for getting a city destroyed and terrorizing the Colonies. Either that or he's a hypocrite. Your example can be used on the case. Would he forgive him for all the lost souls?

Like this mistake for example:

"The headquarters served as Assassin bureaus and local bases of operations for the Brotherhood. However, the citizens often suffered as a result of this, as the Assassins neglected to keep the gangs in check, and thus they terrorized the populace by stealing and demanding protection money from the inhabitants."
http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Gang_headquarters

"In your race to save the world, take care that you don't destroy it...."




Sympathetic to the fact that he too lost a father, he contacts Arno personally as to not only help the Brotherhood work something out in America, but also give Arno the last stamp of closure of his lost loved ones.

He wants to give Arno a chance of finding inner peace, how will this go? Who knows.

Arno has lost two fathers. As for Connor's sympathy, there is a difference. He killed is own father and that didn't bring any "inner peace". More like regret and revelations. Then there is the fact that there is nothing leading to Shay, he's of history if you catch my drift. We know nothing after his assassination of Charles other than no witnesses and that there isn't any clues left, he's simply gone.


"For the next few years, Napoleon had a successful career during the crushing of the 13 Vendémiaire uprising in Paris. Despite commanding only five thousand troops against twenty-five thousand insurgents, Napoleon defeated the Royalists through the use of cannons and grapeshot. His successful campaigns in Italy to fight the Austrians caused an upsurge in his popularity.

In 1798, Napoleon embarked on a campaign to Egypt and Syria, with the intention of claiming the Apple of Eden from the Saint-Denis Temple. After successfully retrieving the artifact, he returned home in 1799. Using his newfound power,Bonaparte seized power for himself during the 18 Brumaire coup, becoming the First Consul of France."

http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Napoleon_Bonaparte

Apparently, Arno never did follow him, or failed in the mission. So I took a swing with the info I got.

I know, still should be a bigger priority than "inner peace" or daddy issues.


Plus, I feel like the word "shoehorned" is thrown alot these days, that I feel like it lost its meaning.

Just like fan-fiction. Then there is the hypocritesy of calling the black and white Templar game that when it's not even the first black and white game in the series. Lost meaning by that point.

Mr.Black24
07-30-2015, 03:22 AM
I don't really vision Connor writing to a Assassin overseas, and inviting him for a male bonding session on losing a father.
Also that conversation would get awkward when he tells Arno he killed his own father] and that really they have nothing in common.

;)

Its not a male bonding per say. Simply that he's just giving him an offer to find out if Shay is the one that done the deed, closing the final chapter on Arno's past.

I think you took this way over the hill.



But really ..... ;) This comment...

I was drinking as I read that;)

Hope it wasn't soda, cuz man that burns!


That's all fair and good but how do investigate someone or something you haven't heard and has no clues left? If Connor hears of Templar activity, he and the team would go in and investigate, find clues here and there, get hints of a man who just reorganized the Order. From there, its just climbing up the latter, how hard and far it is, no one knows. Depending if Connor already knows about what Shay has done as well, could be a clue, or just a fluke.




That's a possibility but it only allow Connor to know of Shay, not his current position. Again, what leads to him? All we know is that he hasn't returned to America and wasn't in the French Revelution. That narrow it down in both time and place but still don't reveal where he is.
If anything, they left that very ambiguous here, as one of the devs and fans talked about if thats the Box and Manuscript.

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20150714205939/assassinscreed/images/5/5d/Jeff_Debate.png
http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20150715030051/assassinscreed/images/4/46/Jeff.png

Plus he must have survived, otherwise we wouldn't get his memories. Perhaps from his long dead skeleton, but its all theory.


He's already blinded regarding Templars, so if the Colonial Templars are bad in his eyes then Achilles in his prime is far worse. He is responsible for getting a city destroyed and terrorizing the Colonies. Either that or he's a hypocrite. Your example can be used on the case. Would he forgive him for all the lost souls?

Since it was an indirect trigger, Connor would feel for both. I thought we agreed that both Achilles and Shay didn't want, but Achilles brushed it off.




Arno has lost two fathers. As for Connor's sympathy, there is a difference. He killed is own father and that didn't bring any "inner peace". More like regret and revelations. Then there is the fact that there is nothing leading to Shay, he's of history if you catch my drift. We know nothing after his assassination of Charles other than no witnesses and that there isn't any clues left, he's simply gone.

Hence why he would want Arno for it, to not go through the pain that Connor had endured. Ever thought that perhaps Connor would want Arno to be a diplomat to help created a truce between both Orders in America? And remember how Arno wanted unity between both Orders as well, and promised to Elise that he would try to do so, as he done in his later years, according the the wiki, Abstergo Book, and novel?

I mean lets be fair here too, Haytham was known to be the most dangerous Templar in England, he kills Miko with no witnesses and yet the Assassins found out it was him, as Miles told him bellow the deck. Shay gained the same infamy as Haytham, so there would be a chance that they would eventually find out.



I know, still should be a bigger priority than "inner peace" or daddy issues.

Not the first time that Assassins prioritized other things....



Just like fan-fiction. Then there is the hypocritesy of calling the black and white Templar game that when it's not even the first black and white game in the series. Lost meaning by that point. Thats because we know that the Borgias had always been *******s, its no secret that they would pursue power, and would use the Templars to do so. At least real history has this to back the reasoning of a black and white story. How did Achilles developed this view point is my question. We know Bellec did, as he developed it over the years, but we see Achilles chill in the beginning, then takes a hard heel turn near the turn of Shay's defection.

Hans684
07-30-2015, 01:00 PM
If Connor hears of Templar activity, he and the team would go in and investigate, find clues here and there, get hints of a man who just reorganized the Order. From there, its just climbing up the latter, how hard and far it is, no one knows. Depending if Connor already knows about what Shay has done as well, could be a clue, or just a fluke.

First of I said: "How do you find someone you havn't heard of with no clues left?", Shay has nothing leading to him. The trace is cold.
Second, that's if Shay wants to be found after having just disappeared, which would be a poor tactic or writing considering he's gone. And simply done so they can meet, again it would be forced. He has the Precursor Box. So something along the lines of guarding Temples or purging another brotherhood in Europe sounds far more likely. Initiates revealed Adéwalé's date of death before Rogue was revealed, so had he returned to America we would have gotten something by now but we havn't.



If anything, they left that very ambiguous here, as one of the devs and fans talked about if thats the Box and Manuscript.

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20150714205939/assassinscreed/images/5/5d/Jeff_Debate.png
http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20150715030051/assassinscreed/images/4/46/Jeff.png

Plus he must have survived, otherwise we wouldn't get his memories. Perhaps from his long dead skeleton, but its all theory.



Yolahem said in that chat that it isn't the Precursor Box, his box is the one that contained the key too the Temple in Dead Kings. It's a red hearing.


Since it was an indirect trigger, Connor would feel for both.

Regarding the Temple, yes. The terrorized Colonies, don't thinks so. His brotherhood didn't do that indirect. Or that they wanted to use gas against the colonial authority, that would have resulted in major civilian casualties.


I thought we agreed that both Achilles and Shay didn't want, but Achilles brushed it off.

I know he didn't want it, he's still responsible either way. Achilles expected to find an AOE, he was proven wrong.




Hence why he would want Arno for it, to not go through the pain that Connor had endured. Ever thought that perhaps Connor would want Arno to be a diplomat to help created a truce between both Orders in America? And remember how Arno wanted unity between both Orders as well, and promised to Elise that he would try to do so, as he done in his later years, according the the wiki, Abstergo Book, and novel?

http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Arno_Dorian#Master_Assassin

Sometime afterwards Arno rejoined the Brotherhood, eventually becoming a Master Assassin. He frequently visited Élise, blooming her grave, and proclaimed himself redeemed of his previous mistakes. During the following years while undergoing several missions for the Brotherhood, Arno also tried to honor Elise's last will of reducing the gap between the Templars and Assassins.

You mean this? He hasn't united them but "reducing the gap". Haytham, Shay, Connor, Élise and Arno all wants a true, so killing each other over daddy issues or get "inner peace" won't solve that. So if he wants to honor Élise he have to successfully unite the order, at least once for a time until a fanatic ****s I all up. Shay could be that guy making it possible, that's of course if they meet.

But the brotherhood in France still need to unite with the Templars there, Shay isn't leading them. So going after Shay is a waste of time and going after him because of "inner peace" or daddy issues(something I'm sure he's over after watching the fate of Élise) wouldn't be good enough reason. Might as well kill him for just being a Templar. And while you say "Arno this and Arno that", have you considered Shay's case? Simply killing him of cause reasons from Arno's side might end Arno's past but it does't end Shay's new arc.

Connor had to go trough his pain because his fighting brought it, the results of his actions could have been far better. If he did nothing other than guarding the Temple and warned them on their way too it. As for Arno being a diplomat, he wouldn't need him for that. He's more than capable himself and he have Aveline and Eseosa.
And we don't know the state of the Templars after the American Revolution. We've heard nothing about that, only that he sent Aveline to recruit someone he wants in the his brotherhood and she kicked his arce.


I mean lets be fair here too, Haytham was known to be the most dangerous Templar in England, he kills Miko with no witnesses and yet the Assassins found out it was him, as Miles told him bellow the deck.

Haytham is known as the most dangerous Templar in England and killed someone without witnesses. Him being famous in England and kills an Assassin narrows down where he'd be. All they had to is too track him from the Opera and have one of their Assassins work on the ship he had ordered before all of this. Haytham has already countless factors leading to his discovery. Then there is Shay...


Shay gained the same infamy as Haytham, so there would be a chance that they would eventually find out.

Shay is only known as "The Traitor", not by name like Haytham or place. He's the guy that purged the Colonial Assassins but he's not in the Colonies anymore. He kills an Assassin in France with no witnesses and all who knows him and his name are dead. He hasn't returned to America, because then we'd hear about what happened in MD by Abstergo Entertainment by the guy researching Connor's later life. Or by Bellec who's a Connor fanboy. He's not in France anymore nor did he come when Lafrenière called for support world wide. All I want to know is if there is any canon on Shay's part that would lead to too him, anything. I'm not gonna ask you to tell me if there is or not, I demand a straight awnser without an "if".

As for "ifs", since he has the Precursor Box another other Temples and what they know of could lead to him. But neither Arno or Connor need to travel to deal with that. I'm sure all brotherhoods has their own Altaïr, Ezio or Connor with their own reputation of either rebuilding the ways of the brotherhood and creed. Strengthen the brotherhood or rebuilding it alone after a purge.





Not the first time that Assassins prioritized other things....

Other things better be important things then.... And Napoleon is still a bigger issue than Shay regardless, Napoleon is power hungry and has an Apple Of Eden. Wasting time on one Templar isn't practical, efficient or help anyone in any way except for maybe a selfish Arno wanting "inner peace" or wants to end his daddy issues while Napoleon can do what he wants without being stopped by the only one who could end all of it. Tell me, who's worse. Napoleon or Shay?


Thats because we know that the Borgias had always been *******s, its no secret that they would pursue power, and would use the Templars to do so. At least real history has this to back the reasoning of a black and white story.

True.


How did Achilles developed this view point is my question. We know Bellec did, as he developed it over the years, but we see Achilles chill in the beginning, then takes a hard heel turn near the turn of Shay's defection.

Achilles is chill but his brotherhood still terrorized the Colonies. But he's not the first Mentor being chill before going mad or using the brotherhood in a bad way, Al Mualim and Abbas is the same. And you said character development can go in both directions, Achilles being one of the most powerful Mentors is fully capable of becoming corrupt. His brotherhood was an army with an Assassin fleet with gang support, does't that sound very much different from the typical brotherhoods? And Assassins being less used to power or practice the use of it like Templars is even more capable of corruption.

Hans684
07-30-2015, 08:20 PM
I agree with the fact that its a real possibility UBI will never conclude the Shay vs Arno "thing"

Would be forced at best if they did, only thing that could have them meet is unity against Napoleon. That's if Shay is still alive by that point.


If they do it would be with DLC for Syndicate or the maybe even Rogue <---- If they ever decide to release DLC for it.

Don't expect the season pass to involve them at all, it's Evie's and Jacob's turn now.


With Syndicate I expect the DLC to have someone to do with Edward Kenway if he isn't referenced in the game.Its in London where he lived and died ;)

If I'm correct the Edward owned a company of something in England. Or maybe we can visit their home and see their grave stones.

Hans684
07-30-2015, 09:45 PM
Good point.
Regarding Napoleon, was I the only one who thought his involvement in Unity's story was waaaaaayyyy over exaggerated before launch:confused:
From what I remember from Unity (I try to forget it if I'm honest ) we only saw him on what.. 2 occasions? And briefly in the Dead Kings DLC??

Is there something not exaggerated about Unity?


Yeah I was thinking more of DLC for Rogue, but I doubt that's ever happening now

It's not.


That will make for cheerful gameplay ;)
Weep:(

Or simply a moment of silence.

Hans684
07-30-2015, 10:07 PM
*thinks for a solid 5mins
..
Nope ;)

That's the spirit!


They don't want to admit their last gen game is better ;)

True.


...

...

Hans684
07-30-2015, 10:26 PM
Even I'm surprised how little hype there is for Syndicate. ;)
Unity has trampled UBIs reputation ;) <---- But lets be honest, Its never been that great.;)

True, they are now called the French EA. So it's pretty low by now.

Mr.Black24
07-31-2015, 04:41 AM
First of I said: "How do you find someone you havn't heard of with no clues left?", Shay has nothing leading to him. The trace is cold.
Second, that's if Shay wants to be found after having just disappeared, which would be a poor tactic or writing considering he's gone. And simply done so they can meet, again it would be forced. He has the Precursor Box. So something along the lines of guarding Temples or purging another brotherhood in Europe sounds far more likely. Initiates revealed Adéwalé's date of death before Rogue was revealed, so had he returned to America we would have gotten something by now but we havn't.
Why would he purge another Brotherhood in Europe and let Connor gain power in America? Hes proclaimed himself a Templar of the American Rite, remember?

Plus info always leak out, thats how the Assassins and Templars fight for years, intelligence gathering remember? Otherwise thier war would never "progress" if they don't find out the plans of one another.



Yolahem said in that chat that it isn't the Precursor Box, his box is the one that contained the key too the Temple in Dead Kings. It's a red hearing.
Exactly, that Box isn't the Precursor Box, so Shay is still about with it.

As for the red hearing, perhaps. But then again, people thought it was China that the next game was leading on in Freedom Cry just becouse Darby said "Look to the stars" but in fact was the French Revolution due to the simple clue that colors of the hanged blankets signified the French colors:rolleyes:. so perhaps we can be overthinking things.



Regarding the Temple, yes. The terrorized Colonies, don't thinks so. His brotherhood didn't do that indirect. Or that they wanted to use gas against the colonial authority, that would have resulted in major civilian casualties.


Depending on how they use it, after all you can poison them from afar to by a drink from wine. Doesn't have to be a damm mess.






http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Arno_Dorian#Master_Assassin

Sometime afterwards Arno rejoined the Brotherhood, eventually becoming a Master Assassin. He frequently visited Élise, blooming her grave, and proclaimed himself redeemed of his previous mistakes. During the following years while undergoing several missions for the Brotherhood, Arno also tried to honor Elise's last will of reducing the gap between the Templars and Assassins.

You mean this? He hasn't united them but "reducing the gap". Haytham, Shay, Connor, Élise and Arno all wants a true, so killing each other over daddy issues or get "inner peace" won't solve that. So if he wants to honor Élise he have to successfully unite the order, at least once for a time until a fanatic ****s I all up. Shay could be that guy making it possible, that's of course if they meet.

But the brotherhood in France still need to unite with the Templars there, Shay isn't leading them. So going after Shay is a waste of time and going after him because of "inner peace" or daddy issues(something I'm sure he's over after watching the fate of Élise) wouldn't be good enough reason. Might as well kill him for just being a Templar. And while you say "Arno this and Arno that", have you considered Shay's case? Simply killing him of cause reasons from Arno's side might end Arno's past but it does't end Shay's new arc.

Connor had to go trough his pain because his fighting brought it, the results of his actions could have been far better. If he did nothing other than guarding the Temple and warned them on their way too it. As for Arno being a diplomat, he wouldn't need him for that. He's more than capable himself and he have Aveline and Eseosa.
And we don't know the state of the Templars after the American Revolution. We've heard nothing about that, only that he sent Aveline to recruit someone he wants in the his brotherhood and she kicked his arce.

Thats the idea, to honor his loved ones by trying to unite the Orders with Shay and Connor, while finding out why he did this. Two birds with one stone.

Plus, you keep saying that he was wasting his time, yet why was it ok for Ezio to travel to Masyaf? To learn about the Order and why he had to suffer through all of this. Why is it wrong for Arno to find out the same? To find out the true reasons that he took his father from him?


Haytham is known as the most dangerous Templar in England and killed someone without witnesses. Him being famous in England and kills an Assassin narrows down where he'd be. All they had to is too track him from the Opera and have one of their Assassins work on the ship he had ordered before all of this. Haytham has already countless factors leading to his discovery. Then there is Shay...




Shay is only known as "The Traitor", not by name like Haytham or place. He's the guy that purged the Colonial Assassins but he's not in the Colonies anymore. He kills an Assassin in France with no witnesses and all who knows him and his name are dead. He hasn't returned to America, because then we'd hear about what happened in MD by Abstergo Entertainment by the guy researching Connor's later life. Or by Bellec who's a Connor fanboy. He's not in France anymore nor did he come when Lafrenière called for support world wide. All I want to know is if there is any canon on Shay's part that would lead to too him, anything. I'm not gonna ask you to tell me if there is or not, I demand a straight awnser without an "if".

Your on the same boat as me. I want to know on why Shay is all talk of saving people, but never shows up to the meeting. Just like how he is this feared Assassin Hunter, but never shows up to America to get Connor. Your theories is just theories like mine, we can go around in circles all day, but we don't got any solid answers at all.

Plus I would never call Bellec a Connor fanboy, otherwise he would have followed Connor's example of attempt unity.


As for "ifs", since he has the Precursor Box another other Temples and what they know of could lead to him. But neither Arno or Connor need to travel to deal with that. I'm sure all brotherhoods has their own Altaïr, Ezio or Connor with their own reputation of either rebuilding the ways of the brotherhood and creed. Strengthen the brotherhood or rebuilding it alone after a purge.

So if each Brotherhood has their own Altair and Ezio, then Arno is free to go out and do the thing.




Other things better be important things then.... And Napoleon is still a bigger issue than Shay regardless, Napoleon is power hungry and has an Apple Of Eden. Wasting time on one Templar isn't practical, efficient or help anyone in any way except for maybe a selfish Arno wanting "inner peace" or wants to end his daddy issues while Napoleon can do what he wants without being stopped by the only one who could end all of it. Tell me, who's worse. Napoleon or Shay?

He was exiled to Saint Helena island after captured by the British. Died of a stomach disease. With this, I'm not sure if Arno did stop him, but maybe Ubi has a twist for it, so its all debate and theory. Its a dead end from here.





Achilles is chill but his brotherhood still terrorized the Colonies. But he's not the first Mentor being chill before going mad or using the brotherhood in a bad way, Al Mualim and Abbas is the same. And you said character development can go in both directions, Achilles being one of the most powerful Mentors is fully capable of becoming corrupt. His brotherhood was an army with an Assassin fleet with gang support, does't that sound very much different from the typical brotherhoods? And Assassins being less used to power or practice the use of it like Templars is even more capable of corruption.

But thats just it, we see Al Mualim being very mysterious and secretive with every death, to be relieved that he wanted the Apple for himself all along, and using Altair to do it. Abbas has already been stated since the beginning, right after his father's death, he hated Altair for the "lies" he told, nipping at his heels ever since. We see how the characteristics develop, so it flows just great.

With Achilles, its fine, until that turn heel moment. It was a shock, no type of foreshowing, or downhill slide that drove him to that point.
I still believed that the loss of his family drove him down to that level. After all, the stages of loss is Anger, Grief, Bargaining, and Acceptance. Unfortunately, those emotions must have brought down the Brotherhood with him, anger driving him to a tunnel vision of chasing the Temples, and Bargaining that the Assassins isn't wrong.

Plus I really don't understand much on the Assassin gangs, like I remember as Assassin Shay, I had to fight them from killing hostages. Even running near them would cause a fight, I thought they were my allies, so this just confuses me even more. They seem more like an independent group more, as they listen to the Assassins when needed, but when they're not here, they do whatever they want. Its not terrorism, its neglect, thus the gangs do whatever they want.

I still need more clarity for this cuz calling the Assassins terrorists a bit much. Neglectful, a bit mad, unfocused, and harsh? Yeah, but I doubt it was that deep too.

Hans684
07-31-2015, 08:53 AM
Why would he purge another Brotherhood in Europe and let Connor gain power in America? Hes proclaimed himself a Templar of the American Rite, remember?

That's the point, he hasn't returned. So obviously something else must be going on. And by purging another Brotherhood he would gotten power, it's evening the odds.


Plus info always leak out, thats how the Assassins and Templars fight for years, intelligence gathering remember? Otherwise thier war would never "progress" if they don't find out the plans of one another.

Or that Templars usually is high profile public figures, but Shay isn't a historical person.


Exactly, that Box isn't the Precursor Box, so Shay is still about with it.

Yes, but we don't know anything else.


As for the red hearing, perhaps. But then again, people thought it was China that the next game was leading on in Freedom Cry just becouse Darby said "Look to the stars" but in fact was the French Revolution due to the simple clue that colors of the hanged blankets signified the French colors:rolleyes:. so perhaps we can be overthinking things.

People who overthink tend to create problems for themselves that wasn't there to begin with:rolleyes:
(Old signature)


Depending on how they use it, after all you can poison them from afar to by a drink from wine. Doesn't have to be a damm mess.

Not with the big amount of gas they had, they planned on pull of something like good ol' Scarecrow. And they said they wanted to use it on the Colonial authority, not just Templars. Then there is also the fact that his Brotherhood also attacked natives, so him telling Connor about his past does't look like a possibility.


Thats the idea, to honor his loved ones by trying to unite the Orders with Shay and Connor, while finding out why he did this. Two birds with one stone.

Still has to unite with the new French Templars after the revolution and then there is Napoleon gaining more and more power.


Plus, you keep saying that he was wasting his time, yet why was it ok for Ezio to travel to Masyaf? To learn about the Order and why he had to suffer through all of this.

Different factors.

- No more Corrupt Templars in Italy.
- Just liberated Roma which was the source of the power of the Italian Templars and Papacy.
- No more treats in Italy.
- Him leaving wouldn't result in something bad since there wasn't someone like Napoleon waiting for his turn.
- His travel was done for the Brotherhood, not "inner peace" or daddy issues. A selfless trip with the brotherhood in mind.
- His sister Claudia who's an Assassin herself could easy deal with it while he was gone.

Ezio wasn't wasting time on one Templar on his trip to Constantinople while the next pope got his hands on the Apple Of Eden while Ezio took a selfish trip all about himself for "inner peace" or daddy issues(consider how old he is the issue could have been a bastard son he don't know of).


Why is it wrong for Arno to find out the same? To find out the true reasons that he took his father from him?

It's nothing wrong about it, the reasons for it not going to happen is.

- No crime scene anymore.
- No witnesses.
- Any evidence leading to Shay is dead or gone.
- Napoleon being a bigger risk.
- The new French Templars he's "reducing the gap" with.
- Shay not being in Unity or have returned to America, so there is nothing leading to him and he missed out on two major events.
- It's a selfish trip for "inner peace" or daddy issues but not an act done for the Brotherhood. It all resolve around him.
- He does't even know of Shay.
- Nothing leading to his current position. If there is I'd love to hear it, so what is it?


Your on the same boat as me. I want to know on why Shay is all talk of saving people, but never shows up to the meeting. Just like how he is this feared Assassin Hunter, but never shows up to America to get Connor. Your theories is just theories like mine, we can go around in circles all day, but we don't got any solid answers at all.

Just say there is nothing leading to him then, no need to go around it. Can't just throw theories around either, everything has to be taken to consideration.


Plus I would never call Bellec a Connor fanboy, otherwise he would have followed Connor's example of attempt unity.

He's a fanatic, they tend to have contradictions.


So if each Brotherhood has their own Altair and Ezio, then Arno is free to go out and do the thing.

So if Shay is in Russia or Middle East he'd travel there? I'm pretty sure both places have their own Altaïr, Ezio or Connor during the time that could pull a fight against him.(or an Adéwalé that's soon to be killed)


He was exiled to Saint Helena island after captured by the British. Died of a stomach disease. With this, I'm not sure if Arno did stop him, but maybe Ubi has a twist for it, so its all debate and theory. Its a dead end from here.

Or that "stomach disease" is poison delivered by Arno as he chat with him in his last moment. Considering how stealthy Arno is I can see him kill a guard and blend in as a French rookie and traitor that turned against Napoleon, then go for the kill as a British Soldier. His British accent despite being an half French and half Australian French man helps.


But thats just it, we see Al Mualim being very mysterious and secretive with every death, to be relieved that he wanted the Apple for himself all along, and using Altair to do it. Abbas has already been stated since the beginning, right after his father's death, he hated Altair for the "lies" he told, nipping at his heels ever since. We see how the characteristics develop, so it flows just great.

True.


With Achilles, its fine, until that turn heel moment. It was a shock, no type of foreshowing, or downhill slide that drove him to that point.

Again, his family loss and anger issues don't change his Brotherhood position in the Colonies. They terrorize with gangs that's lead by Hope who's an Assassin and her boss is Achilles who's Mentor. The one leading everything.


I still believed that the loss of his family drove him down to that level. After all, the stages of loss is Anger, Grief, Bargaining, and Acceptance. Unfortunately, those emotions must have brought down the Brotherhood with him, anger driving him to a tunnel vision of chasing the Temples, and Bargaining that the Assassins isn't wrong.

The rest of his crew is fanatics as well, so his training about "the truth" can be questioned. Either he always was it but remained calm or he became one, the second go against what his Brotherhood is.


Plus I really don't understand much on the Assassin gangs, like I remember as Assassin Shay, I had to fight them from killing hostages. Even running near them would cause a fight, I thought they were my allies, so this just confuses me even more. They seem more like an independent group more, as they listen to the Assassins when needed, but when they're not here, they do whatever they want. Its not terrorism, its neglect, thus the gangs do whatever they want.

I can say the same of Cesare Borgia's thief's, The Cento Occhi (English: Hundred Eyes) who gets attacked by Borgia guards. They work for the Borgia and terrorize Roma. But you don't see me defending the Borgia, do you?


I still need more clarity for this cuz calling the Assassins terrorists a bit much. Neglectful, a bit mad, unfocused, and harsh? Yeah, but I doubt it was that deep too.

Let's see:

Terrorize the Colonies with gangs, check.
Attacking natives, check.
Plan on gassing the Colonial authority(major civilian casualties), check.
Accidentally destroying a city, check.