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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 02:00 AM
I installed the beta08 patch and started up FB. I first wanted to check out the Dora because I had heard the patch had done wonders for it, and yes, it is a much better plane. My next flight was in the P-47. Now some people say the patch didnt do a lot for it but I seem to do tons better with it. The zoom climb is now much better and I can keep my speed up during a dogfight where as before the patch I would lose E and speed very quickly in a dogfight. The .50 cals are much much more potent now, able to tear off wings with short bursts of a second or so. Not only are the .50's more powerful but they just sound so cool!

As for the rest of the patch, I liked seing AI AC panic after being fired at and fall into a spin they can't recover from, but it does get annoying that they don't recover from ANY of the spins. Also the mk 108 is very powerful. No plane can take more than 2 of these beasts, which makes the later ME-109's and ME-262 extremely potent. Anyone else care to add anything?

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 02:00 AM
I installed the beta08 patch and started up FB. I first wanted to check out the Dora because I had heard the patch had done wonders for it, and yes, it is a much better plane. My next flight was in the P-47. Now some people say the patch didnt do a lot for it but I seem to do tons better with it. The zoom climb is now much better and I can keep my speed up during a dogfight where as before the patch I would lose E and speed very quickly in a dogfight. The .50 cals are much much more potent now, able to tear off wings with short bursts of a second or so. Not only are the .50's more powerful but they just sound so cool!

As for the rest of the patch, I liked seing AI AC panic after being fired at and fall into a spin they can't recover from, but it does get annoying that they don't recover from ANY of the spins. Also the mk 108 is very powerful. No plane can take more than 2 of these beasts, which makes the later ME-109's and ME-262 extremely potent. Anyone else care to add anything?

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 02:02 AM
What about the P-47's roll rate? Was that fixed? At high speeds, it should be twice as fast as it was.

Regards,

SkyChimp

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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 02:04 AM
What AI level are you fighting. I did a few runs on the beta and got Laggs and a few P39s to spin, and they usually recovered.


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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 02:09 AM
The Roll rate was improved greatly, but I dont know if its accurate. It no longer freezes up on high speed dives. I went up with 8 P-47's against 8 FW-190's and it was a great fight! One of the best I have had. Very close. I could keep up with almost any move the FW (D9 or A9) made. Also it stalled less and was EASY to keep the speed above 400KPH IAS. It really likes fighting at 500KPH and the .50 cals do have a little bit more power. I went up against 8 109's against the P-47's and the poor 109's had no chance at all. We lost 1 P-47 and all 109's were dusted in no time. Sure the 109 will get on your tail, but you will survive enough hits till your team mate strips the bogey off of you. Very much a team aircraft.

In my openion, the P-47 was not flyable before the patch, now its a damn good aircraft. Along with the P-40!!!

P.S. AMAZING dive speed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And it KEEPS it!

Gib


SkyChimp wrote:
- What about the P-47's roll rate? Was that fixed?
- At high speeds, it should be twice as fast as it
- was.
-
- Regards,
-
- SkyChimp
-
- <img
- src="http://pages.prodigy.net/4parks/_uimages/SkyC
- himp.jpg">
-
-



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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 02:10 AM
I was flying against Average AI. As for the roll rate I can't really say for sure, but the jug seems to handle much better than before in every aspect, although at high speeds (above 600 kph) the controls start to become slugish.

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 02:13 AM
Typically what I have seen with the AI stall is it is AFTER they have taken quite a bit of damage. The rookie AI's try to keep the crippled AC in the air too long and spin it. Then its un-recoverable. The higher skilled will punch out sooner if they sense the aircraft is not controleable. I have seen panic jerk's by rookie AI once they "sense" they have something in there tail. Like a quick jerk back on the stick, but I have not seen them stall it unless they do that same jerk back with damage and slow. THEN they loose it. Very realistic. Beta08 is like a hole new game!!!

Gib

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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 02:14 AM
Great news, Gib. As much as the .50s needed to be tuned up, the toughness of the Fw-190s needed to be tuned down. You could spray a D-9 with most of your ammo from a P-47 and knock the tail off long before breaking a piece off the wing.

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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 02:27 AM
Chimp, wouldn't hurt if you posted some Good roll rate documents (clear and short and Real) over at SimHQ (Ian's request for patch bugs thread). I'm not convinced the P47 rolls as well as it should, notably at high speeds (500kph+). Now is the time to be posting all that stuff, not After the patch is out.

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 02:37 AM
THANK GOD THEY FIXED THE JUG. your right it was unflyable before the patch. and the fw was very sub par compared to the 109s. sounds like they made all the planes a bit more realistic. but i hear the LA7 is better now too. that plane already was fantastic . now its faster i hear. and i dont understand why they took away some of the climb and energy retention from the K4? hey if it wasnt so uber but just overmodelled fine. but if theyre just toning it down to balance out the planes thats not cool

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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 02:41 AM
Did you guys get the same beta 8 patch I have???

P-47D10
500kts indicated
2100 meters altitude
360 degrees of roll= 9.6 seconds

.50s more powerful?
I think I want the beta 8 you guys got!
S!
Chris


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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 02:43 AM
I agree with Chimp... I'd like to see the roll rate corrected.

As to dive and energy.. If I am at 5000 meters.. I find I can frustrate the usually successful Me109 aces.... if I stay high and use shallow dives and lower prop pitch... Same with Yaks, and Fw190s...

The current P47-D22 is very competitive.. except for the application, needed, in roll to perform the important out of plane manovouers..

Of course, if you want to burn around at 1000 meters in a melee... then don't always expect to come home /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 02:44 AM
Reddeth, the La7 hasn't really been improved IMHO. It now handles like a pregnant cow at speeds over 500 kph.

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Message Edited on 07/22/0301:52AM by Demolisher_

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 02:50 AM
ZG77_Lignite wrote:
- Chimp, wouldn't hurt if you posted some Good roll
- rate documents (clear and short and Real) over at
- SimHQ (Ian's request for patch bugs thread). I'm
- not convinced the P47 rolls as well as it should,
- notably at high speeds (500kph+). Now is the time
- to be posting all that stuff, not After the patch is
- out.
-
-


I've posted roll charts in the past. Directed at Oleg. He even responded in one of the threads.

The P-47D-27 was doing a 360 roll in 10 seconds at about 350mph. Should be 5 seconds.


Regards,

SkyChimp

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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 02:56 AM
rgr that demolisher. i misheard some info then. good.

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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 03:11 AM
chris455 wrote:
- Did you guys get the same beta 8 patch I have???
-
- P-47D10
- 500kts indicated
- 2100 meters altitude
- 360 degrees of roll= 9.6 seconds
-
- .50s more powerful?
- I think I want the beta 8 you guys got!
- S!
- Chris

You sure you installed the patch? This is about what it was doing pre-patch.

The FB P-47 roll rate was porked. Oleg has correct numbers for it. There really isn't any excuse for it being wrong now.

Regards,

SkyChimp

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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 03:18 AM
The P-47 roll rate seems undermodeled as much as the Fw190 roll rate is overmodeled.

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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 03:21 AM
Nothing wrong with the Jug now, except it "could" roll a "little faster. I'm not complaining cause the way she is now is alrighty with me. The 8 .50cals have improved and can flame/explode any plane in the game now. She out dives all others "AND" stays stable, while any other plane breaks apart.

I see the patch forcing folks to fly the planes with better tactics. The Jug is just deadly in packs of 3 or more. Team tactics will be even more important now. S!

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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 03:29 AM
Dear Chimp,
Yes I have Beta 08. LOTS has changed in it. Not the P-47.
Some people I respect alot here say its much better now. I have no explanation or answer for this. However:

FW family is now bloodthirsty king of the skies;
I-16, I-153 now behave much closer to historical reality;
P-40 no longer suffers from "Spontaneous Curtiss Combustion" and "seems" to have lost it's glass jaw;
Sound is now AWESOME;
Framerates are faster (5-10 FPS on my system, getting consistent 35-40 FPS in perfect mode)
And LOTS more good news.

NOW LET'S TALK JUGS
Rollrate I have already given (see above);
Is slightly (10-15 kts) faster;
Still has the "one hit and quit" engine problem.
Everything else still seems "porked" as you say in the build I downloaded ("1.1 test08" on the splash screen)
Add to this the fact that the controls at high speed (400kts+) act more like those of an A6M2 (mechanical linkage) than the power assisted surfaces of the RL P-47 and you start to see my dismay.
Chimpster, I don't know how there can be such disparity between my account and those of others here. But I have LOTS and LOTS of in-game stick time on the jug (my 2nd fav in the game behind Fw-190) and I'm not imagining this.
Hope it gets fixed in the final.
S!
Chris




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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 03:30 AM
I just did a quick test. At 2000M at 500KPH, the P-47 took 9 seconds to roll 360. At 5000M at 500KPH, it took 8 seconds. I then dove foen yo 1500M at 800KPH and it took 11.5 seconds to do a full roll. It still feels a little faster then the original. Also the P-47 stalls a lot less. I did the test with the D-27.

Gib

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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 03:36 AM
My impressions of 08 P-47.

Roll rate still slow but better, gets a little better with speed. Better high altitude performance, handling. MUCH improved handling overall, turns fairly well and keeps massive amounts of energy after diving, which builds speed very quickly. I thought the Jug was pretty much unflyable before the patch, now it is awesome in '43 and respectable in '44. And I agree with Buzz, the 190 rolls so fast in 08 it feels arcade like.

As for the guns I still say it isn't really the guns (at least not 100%) that is the problem, it is that many planes were too tough, especially the 190. The funny thing is that in 08 the .50's may seem to have more punch and less spread/recoil, but you still have to dump huge amounts of rounds into a 190. 109's go down with ease, 190's can still absorb almost an entire load. As before you will get the very rare occasion where the plane will go down with a very short burst. I still think the 190 and a few other planes are too tough and didn't really notice a change in their DM. The 190, I-16, etc. were still immune to small caliber mg's in 08 so hopefully the DM still has changes coming.

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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 03:36 AM
Gibbage1 wrote:
- I just did a quick test. At 2000M at 500KPH, the
- P-47 took 9 seconds to roll 360. At 5000M at
- 500KPH, it took 8 seconds. I then dove foen yo
- 1500M at 800KPH and it took 11.5 seconds to do a
- full roll. It still feels a little faster then the
- original. Also the P-47 stalls a lot less. I did
- the test with the D-27.
-
- Gib

This is pre-patch FB performance.

Oleg has the numbers. I needs to get this right.

Regards,

SkyChimp

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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 03:51 AM
A picture is worth a thousand-

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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 03:56 AM
????



Message Edited on 07/21/0307:56PM by UCLANUPE

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 04:05 AM
How is the hurricane? Rather unchanged I hope?

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 04:12 AM
Glad to hear the mk108 is back to the power it had in IL2! It was gutted for some reason in FB. I guess we have to ask some WWII german veterans how many rounds from a mk108 an allied fighter would survive. It would also be nice it the late 109s in FB had the power the 109gA/s had in il2........Those were the days.....


Jumoschwanz

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 04:12 AM
The P-47 is still nothing to fear in the DF servers. Sure it handles better, but it's nothing specatacular. It still stalls alot too and the roll rate is definitely not up to par. It is a hell of a diver though.

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 04:12 AM
Yep, the 08 P-47 is still porked. Roll rate doesn't feel a bit different.

But it doesn't matter. If the final patch doesn't change much from 08, everything is D9 food anyway.

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 04:25 AM
The Hurricane still handles like a dream but now it can be stalled. Engine can overheat but does so slowly. No more boost from 120% mixture.

I disagree that the P-47 is still porked. I think the roll-rate is still slow but it handles well and it builds speed much easier. Having said that I still wouldn't want to fly the Jug in '44 (although it is decent), but in '43 it holds a speed advantage over the 109 and is pretty similar to the 190A-5 IMHO. But teamwork is the key to success in the P-47, period. A squadron that learned to fly the new Jug as a team could really be effective IMHO, and it would just be plain cool.

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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 04:25 AM
In that, Panzzz, I'm afraid what you have said is prophetic.
That is, if the K4 doesn't eat it first (furst?) /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
S!
Chris


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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 05:19 AM
The Rurricane is toned down a LOT. Looses E like crazy, cant climb worth a damn, and stalls with little warning. PERFECT!!!! Its also extra slow now. No more UBER-cane's.

Gib

Yosumi wrote:
- How is the hurricane? Rather unchanged I hope?
-
-



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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 05:23 AM
I might have missed this, but does the P-47 still have stall problems?
Nice to hear the Hurri is no longer infallible.

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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 05:25 AM
Yes the cane is nothinglike it used to be. I think the jug in undermodelled. A '43 G-6 can eat up a Jug.

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 05:32 AM
Really? That can't be acurrate. From what I hear, the real Jug's only true flaw was it's short range.

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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 06:46 AM
kyrule2 wrote:
But teamwork is the key to success in the P-47, period. A squadron that learned to fly the new Jug as a team could really be effective IMHO, and it would just be plain cool.
-
You are spot on with this. TEAMWORK is the key to the JUG it was in the war and it is in this sim. DF server king 1v1. nope, but as a team, oh well you'll see. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

What will be funny is the whinners that will talk about how "over modelled" the JUG becomes once the patch is out. Those eight .50 cals with spray effects and unmatched dive speed for BnZ attacks "will" have you taking notice. One good pass can have any enemy fighter plane in flames now with the improved .50 cals, and wing and engine shots are deadly. Good team tactics in those JUGS will be hard to beat. Good luck to all.

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Message Edited on 07/21/0310:47PM by UCLANUPE

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 06:52 AM
I don't see why team tactics in the Jug are any better than team tactics in any other a/c. Especially superior a/c.

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 07:02 AM
Superior in one aspect or another. But take into consideration the things the JUGS does better than other planes. The fact that it can out dive any other plane in the game is something to consider tactically.

The smart units that fly JUGS won't get into situations that are not advantagous to them(ie. low). However, I have seen more than a few other units "using" team tactics get caught in between the best tactics they have and the best tactics JUGS units have. If the JUGS units have height its over. Not the same if the JUGS are bounced because they can dive away extend and set you up for the team kill better than the majority of fighters in the game. Now this is just my opinion.

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Message Edited on 07/21/0311:04PM by UCLANUPE

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 07:15 AM
They key to tactics is a Jug can take a few hits wile whatever shooting at it cant. Wile the 109 is bust trying to shoot a Jug, it wont notice the other Jug on its tail. Sure the 109 may get a few hits in, but it will go down in flames in NO TIME! 8 Jugs vs 8 190's was a tough battle. 8 Jugs vs 8 109's was a RAPE, with the jugs victorious. We lost 1 Jug, and no 109 survived.

Gib

Dylan_D wrote:
- I don't see why team tactics in the Jug are any
- better than team tactics in any other a/c.
- Especially superior a/c.
-
-



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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 07:20 AM
I've had similar results. 1v1 Jug vs anything means Jug always loses. 8v8 Jug vs anything and Jug always wins. I ran a P-47 vs 109G6 co-op mission 3 times, and the P-47s always won by a huge margin.

In realistic situations (multiple vs multiple, low SA) the Jugs deficiencies are not as apparent (climb, turn, accel) and its advantages come in handy (dive, firepower durability). In 1v1 it has no chance against high T/W bandit, and I wouldn't expect it to.

Then on the second day, it was made bug free, and He saw that it was good.

Message Edited on 07/22/0312:22AM by StG77_Fennec

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 09:28 AM
Yosumi wrote:
- How is the hurricane? Rather unchanged I hope?

I hear it now stalls in a more realistic way.

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 09:31 AM
Crabhart wrote:
- I might have missed this, but does the P-47 still
- have stall problems?

I was playing the latest WB3 at the weekend to compare,
and the general _feel_ of the P47 there isn't so much
different from what it is in FB. With open architecture
sims such as Xplane, I wouldn't know what to trust in
terms of the performance/feel, even though Xplane has
an excellent physics model.

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 09:34 AM
Gibbage1 wrote:
- They key to tactics is a Jug can take a few hits
- wile whatever shooting at it cant. Wile the 109 is
- bust trying to shoot a Jug, it wont notice the other
- Jug on its tail. Sure the 109 may get a few hits
- in, but it will go down in flames in NO TIME!

If the Mk108 has been beefed up, then if you can
land a hit on the P47 with that, (ROF is sort of
marginal) then the 109 shouldn't need to stay around
for long - just long enough to make a pass. That
assumes that the 109 starts with an E advantage
and the 109 pilot can shoot accurately.

Also the later 109s should be able to their sustained
climb to get out of the way if needs be, in the same
way the P47 can use its dive.

But with proper team tactics, then the 109 shouldn't
be able to get that attack in.

However in coops it
might be possible for a group of 109s to bounce a
group of P47s, make one slashing attack and hightail
it out (swoop down and through, then zoom and then
sustained climb out of trouble) potentially taking
out some P47s in the process.

It's going to depend on teamwork and situational
awareness, just like in WW2!



Message Edited on 07/22/0308:37AM by AaronGT

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 09:48 AM
StG77_Fennec wrote:
- I've had similar results. 1v1 Jug vs anything means
- Jug always loses. 8v8 Jug vs anything and Jug
- always wins. I ran a P-47 vs 109G6 co-op mission 3
- times, and the P-47s always won by a huge margin.

Try P-47 vs. Me 110G, LOL.

A flight of 110Gs is the worst boogey in the game. You just sneak up on one, than in NO TIME his buddy is only you, it takes him a 0.01 second burst, and you are GONE, even if you fly an A-10.

http://www.x-plane.org/users/isegrim/FB-desktopweb.jpg
'Only a dead Indianer is a good Indianer!'

Vezérünk a Bátorság, K*sérµnk a Szerencse!
(Courage leads, Luck escorts us! - Historical motto of the 101st Puma Fighter Regiment)

Flight tests and other aviation performance data: http://www.pbase.com/isegrim

Tully__
07-22-2003, 10:39 AM
Can we please keep comments on the patch performance to the real thing. Since it's not released yet and the beta testers are subject to a non-disclosure agreement, that means I expect to see no posts on the topic for at least a week (unless the patch is released early /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif )

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Salut
Tully