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View Full Version : Misguided and Butthurt- AC Rogue Review



Mr.Black24
07-19-2015, 06:02 AM
So I have said a long time ago that I would review the lore of Rogue, from the characters, to the interactions with one another, the environment, the philosophy of the Assassins and Templars. Now the wait is over, and after playing the game for quite some time, I got to say if I had to boil it down to a sentence, it would be this:

So, what happens next!

Indeed, when Ubisoft said that they delivered a Templar game, they did, although a bit roughly. I mean was it the perfect Templar game? By all means no, however it is a good starting point for any future Templar games. With all this in mind, lets go deeper into the game shall we?


The Story

Well we pretty much know how the way it goes. Shay Patrick Cormac was former Assassin turned Templar who broke from his allegiance in order to stop the Colonial Assassins from triggering another earthquake at the expense of human civilization, as they did not only take heed to his warning, but persist on searching for these dangerous sites. After much hell endured to take down his former brothers and establishing the power of the Colonial Rite that would dominate the American Colonies until Connor came into the scene, he traveled to France to recover the artifact that had eluded and haunted him for so long, the Precursor Box. Which was in the hands of none other than the French Assassin, Charles Dorian, father of Assassin's Creed Unity's protagonist, Arno Dorian. With the artifact in hand and the assassination complete, while older, he feels wiser and stronger than he was in his previous years, his mind is now cemented in serving the Templar Order, seeing it to be evolved from the Colonial to the American Rite of the Templar Order. With that in mind he traveled to America doing....where in the hell was he during the rest of the American Revolution??!!!------------We shall continue with this right down bellow in the Butthurt Section.
Meanwhile the Modern Day Templars, Abstergo Industries, are digging into Shay's memories for....well...for what? Well for one thing, to use the memories to convince and induct a new Templar into the fold, which is a reasonable tactic, but however they also went and weaponized the memories into a message to make the heebie jeebies on the modern day Assassins....
Nice.

The Characters

If I can perfectly describe Shay in one definition, it would be this: Templar Connor.
He's like the son that Haytham never had! Quick to follow orders, sometimes never to consider the orders given, a bit naive at times, but also fierce, determined, and a truly good man at heart who had the best intentions for the world, seeing it safe from the destruction that his former associates would unintentionally unleash. He isn't a anti-hero as people were lead to assume, but rather an anti-villain, for this exact reason. Connor rivals him in the overall plans of keeping the colonies safe and free, since he too criticized Achilles for his manichean obsession in killing the Templars and rubbishing any attempts at forming a truce. (Well technically Achilles was a bit more open in ACIII, as he mentions that if Haytham would actually listen to the proposal)
One thing I would like to mention that Shay's legacy was strong enough to invoke this little bit: The Dreaded: Shay is described as being the most feared Assassin hunter in history. Even Charles Dorian, a French Assassin, can recognize him by sight! Add to the fact that he wiped out the Colonial Brotherhood almost single-handily, he indeed had become a capable man than he previously was before and a dangerous advisory for the newly crowned Leader of the American Assassins, Connor Kenway.
Adewale had gone very old from what we last seen in Freedom Cry, yet still as tough and deadly as he was before. Achilles Davenport was a well collected Mentor of the Colonial Assassins, that overseen its day to day operations, until the death of his family, which lead him into anger and despair, causing the Assassins to charge into finding the Precursor sites out of blind and pained emotions, hence the other Assassins had taken as faith and orders, which dragged them into a doom direction as well. In fact, that's one of the biggest driving force on why the Colonial Assassins lost their way, as both Shay and Liam commented:

· Liam: It's so grim about the Homestead now that Miss Abigail and little Connor have passed.
· Shay: Aye. I've seen Achilles crying.
· Liam: Why shouldn't he?
· Shay: It's just that... he doesn't look sad. He looks furious. It's unsettling.
· Liam: He's struggling with the loss. We all are.
· Shay: I know. But it's been months... and we've done little but search for this blasted Manuscript and Box!

The loss of his family had just pushed him to dangerous areas to the point he became stubborn in his mistakes, refusing to believe that the Assassins are wrong in their pursuit for the site, despite Shay's warning. Although let this be clear, Achilles warns Shay of the power of these relics, and even commented that the process must have been accidental and the operation was delicate after the mission, however Shay brushed it off, believing that Achilles wanted this, when he really didn't.

Liam O'Brain was Shay's best friend and seen as an older sibling to him. And as all big brothers, he kept him in line, and wishes to see him to become a great Assassin and overall person. Even an Assassin to the end, he still hoped that the world that Shay will make is a good one, although it is debatable that if he is being sarcastic or not, due to his pain at Shay's betrayal.

Hope Jenson was Shay's heart throb and a death that truly wounded Shay, a pain that is set in equal to Liam. While she was tough on Shay during training sessions, she did so only that Shay can become a better man than he was. It seems that it hints the relationship was becoming close and more just than friends, as after the training session at the homestead, she wanted to invite Shay to dinner! *However you have to be around her before you move on to the next lesson to hear this!*

Kesegowaase was Shay's instructor on living on the frontier, but not much else on character after that.

Chevalier was just a **** to Shay and had it coming after treating him like crap.

Aside from Haytham, the rest of the Templar crew were ok.

The Pros

Well for starters the gameplay was pretty much a copy and paste Black Flag, abet with some tweaking and a few replacements/changes here and there. To me, as a last gen game, it didn't hit me so much as some people did. It was a smooth transition from one game to another, without any complexity to get you started. It was even good enough for newbie players to get the hang of things. One big love I had was the North Atlantic, it was JUST ****ING BEAUTIFUL! The water, the weather, the ice, the environment, everything just flowed so wonderfully, I loved hanging around there more than in the River Valley. The River Valley too is a nice place to be around, the colors, the places, it was all very neat. Tree climbing there can be a drag though, as there are much more dead ends and linear that the Frontier in ACIII. I love the idea on how being a Templar means being hunted by Assassins, by land and sea. The crafting system is nice, although it should be more realistic in terms of making said items, i mean why two huge *** whale skins to make a pouch? The tools and weaponary is also great!, and greatly creates the stealth for the game. I love the outfits there, although I hate the fact that the ****ing Templar Armor protects against ****ING BULLETS! What in the hell? Its chainmail people, it blocks against sword slashes remember? If anything, piercing attacks and projectiles defeat chainmail! I love the James Gunn armor, although for some reasons my DLC for it never came through, and Ubisoft Support sucks at helping me retrieve it. I never mind combat as much, especially since it was the last time we will see it, helped more on me to endure it. Plus I find it fun tearing through my enemies like a tank over baby rabbits! The economic system really shows how the Templars get much more bank than the Assassins! I love the feeling of getting that much chedder, it almost made me stay on the side of the Templars lol!

However this is the part where they made me turn away screaming my head off away from the Templar recruitment hut...


The Misguided and Butthurt: AKA the Cons

The game's story.......:(

If there was one thing that bothered me the most, was the fact that for a Templar game, it did explore on what it means to be a Templar.
Confused? Well so was I! For a Templar game, it never filled me in on what it means to be a Templar. The meat of the hamburger, the main ingredient of the pie, the foundations of the Order! It never even attempted to try. We seen on past games on what it means to be an Assassin, from their Creed, their philosophy, and their actions. They believed that to achieve peace, it must be freedom of choice that leads the way. As Al Mualim had mention in the first game:
§ Al Mualim: What do he and his followers want? A world in which all men are united. I do not despise his goal, I share it. But I take issue with the means. Peace is something to be learned, to be understood, to be embraced.
§ Altaïr: He would force it.
§ Al Mualim: And rob us of our free will in the process.
§ Altaïr: Strange, to think of him in this way...
§ Al Mualim: Never harbor hate for your victims, Altaïr. Such thoughts are poison, and will cloud your judgment.

We even see how Ezio explains the Creed even further in both Revelations and in Embers, however we get no such thing in Rogue. We never see why the Templars are truly right in their mind set. We hear talks of Haytham saying "Under our rule, all would be equel" However we never see the deeper foundations of it. At least, while naive, Connor had the mindset that if he helped the revolutionaries, they would in turn help him secure his land and slowly see that living side by side in peace is the way to go. Of course we see that never came to be and Connor, while wounded by this outcome, he remains firm in improving life in the colonies, believing that things can still change for the better, even if he doesn't live to see the results. We never see why Shay believed that installing forced peace into the people is the right way to go, or even seen if it is the right way. We only see that Shay joined out of necessity to prevent the Assassins from causing further causalities, but after that nothing more on the Templar's tenets and their plans on how to establish peace in the New World. If anything, we missed the one of the three tenets of how each protagonist transforms to their respective cause.

1. Encounter of the Order, by either wanting revenge, justice, or redemption.
2. Learning about the cause and functions during the course of their lives.
3. After years of experience and understanding of the cause, the protagonists makes a speech that culminivates their life experience and dedication to the cause.

We only see Shay go through Step One and Three. The only reasons we see is, other than nessacity, simply that the Assassins suck and nothing more.
Must I even mention the character consistency in Rogue for Shay to be messed up? Shay has a lot of objections to how the Assassins do things. He, oddly enough, fails to bring up any objections to how the Templars operate. Various times it was mentioned that Wardrop and Washington were slavers and native exterminators, and yet was called good by his fellow Templars, with him just agreeing with them? That doesn't make sense at all, why say yes to these actions? Talk about Moral Myopia! The man is against slavery and even befriended an entire tribe so why didn't he speak up when this talk about how these slavers and genocides are good folks?
If there was one thing that got me form the ending is Shay's mental state. He had become a full fledged Master Templar, but at the same time, he became the very thing that he fought against: In his final scene, he implies that the Templars will have to start a revolution to gain power. Given how much lives those cost, it's pretty clear that Shay (despite joining the Templars to stop needless death) is willing to commit mass murder to further his goals. Everyone knows that any type of Revolution would costs lives, and seeing how the French Revolution occurred and how the fanatic Templars brought down the original Templar Order in France, which by the way had just established a successful peaceful truce between their rivals, the French Assassins. Some might say that "how would he know of such a thing, if he did, then he would have never supported it".
If that was the case, then why didn't he voice against this action? Why not address this to the other Templars? Why was there no mention of him in Unity afterwards? Some might even suggest that he became a fanatic. The Templars have resources and manpower that extends enough from their rivals to keep them at their toes, so it would be impossible for Shay to not be in the loop of the actions of other Templars. The War Letters pretty much proved that the Assassins and Templars had kept in consistent contact with one another, and it would be impossible for Shay to not know the bare minimum of outside Templar Activity. Look how the French Brotherhood recognized Connor's actions in America. If at least two of its members noted his actions, then surly such an action like the fanatical Templars would have made Shay spring into action? What does this all even mean? Shay I thought you hated people that do this, what the hell man?!

As for the Modern Day characters, these guys are not only egotistic but just plain evil as well. We see Shay suffer through all his hardships and regrets of killing his former friends, and yet despite Ostro Berg being a Shay fanboy, he disrespects his memory by using it as weapon to scare the Assassins that "we are the big bad Templars that are coming for you, and going to wipe you out like Shay did" ignoring the fact that Shay really didn't want to and if anything he too proposed peace between the Assassins and Templars. Its a poor tactic too, might I add, as it just alerts the Assassins and causes them to plan their actions more carefully, which would make Templar attacks more difficult if the Assassins know that they are coming. Egotistic much Juhani?
Plus they got footage of Connor punding Templar *** into the dirt, so why would they fear Shay's memories?

Final Thoughts

While the game was good overall, it had some issues that from time to time, just put me off. Some things just didn't correct and function right. However, at least it surpassed Unity in terms of story, and thats saying alot after seeing my writing on its cons.If anything, my wish to see a conclusion to Connor, Arno, Aveline, and now Shay is at an all time
TO THE MAXIMUM!
I want to see how Shay is right now, why didn't he show up in AC3 *although this proves that Rogue was a quick thought and never considered the fact on how it tied to AC3 well, which is a fan fiction amatur mistake to make* Did he realize how destructive the French Revolution was? How is the encounter with Connor and Aveline go? How will they regard one another? Shay is aware of Connor's existence, but is it the same for the latter? Are they enemies or folks that will try to befriend? Will Arno find out of his father's killer is in fact Shay? Will Arno even forgive Shay for what he's done? What did he really do with the Box? What was Haytham's plan for it and did Shay follow through or did he have plans of his own? Where does this all go from here?

#giv me moar plz ubi
#and actually explain it better
#comeonguys
#ubiplz

7 3/4s /10

Any questions? Thoughts?:D

ModernWaffle
07-19-2015, 11:03 AM
Really interesting analysis; I would say that Rogue would have likely been my favourite AC game if it was just treated as a main entry.

It's gameplay was solid as it was almost exactly Black Flag in terms of mechanics and the story was quite enjoyable with the first-time attempt of a templar narrative as well as the tie in of some interesting new characters like Monroe, Liam and Hope with some old cast in previous games. However, I can't help but feel that the game itself was such a wasted potential, new gameplay aspects was kept to a bare minimum and the game was only 6 sequences - the whole conflict between Shay and the assassins to his eventual joining of the templars needed more sequences to flesh out properly. Modern day storyline...well I've just given up entirely on that because there is not consistency or any proper continuation in plot since AC3.

Also bothers me that at the same time, Unity had such a messy launch and underlying problems where I still face freezing screens in the game after 5 patches :p

Therefore, in my view Ubisoft ruined two golden opportunities for the AC franchise whereby the first next-gen title and the first game where we get to play as a templar deserved more than they got.

Hans684
07-19-2015, 08:21 PM
Any questions? Thoughts?:D

Yeah. I'm putting this first, don't rage. Caps, countless question marks and "!" won't make your points stronger. Keep calm, don't get offended by the warning either. I simply expect this to blow over as always. It's why I'm saying this, you know me.


Indeed, when Ubisoft said that they delivered a Templar game, they did, although a bit roughly. I mean was it the perfect Templar game? By all means no, however it is a good starting point for any future Templar games. With all this in mind, lets go deeper into the game shall we?

It's a good Templar game compared to AC2/ACB, would have been perfect if they touched their philosophy. It's no different in terms of white washing, fan-fiction and non-canon feel like AC2 and ACB who's no better on the case. I'd rather say Rogue is a parody of why AC2 and ACB are bad, they started the black and white story trend by ditching the moral dilemmas from AC for cartoon stories and Rogue makes it backfire just as ridiculous.


The Story:
Well we pretty much know how the way it goes. Shay Patrick Cormac was former Assassin turned Templar who broke from his allegiance in order to stop the Colonial Assassins from triggering another earthquake at the expense of human civilization, as they did not only take heed to his warning, but persist on searching for these dangerous sites.

Now here's the thing, he never planned or wanted to turn Templar or kill them. That happened because they tried to kill him after he tried to take the manuscript and save them from themselves. So it will not happen again, couldn't let them continue searching.. That would could end with even more earthquakes. They completely ignored his waring(going as far calming he did something wrong) and threw him out in the cold for the night.


After much hell endured to take down his former brothers and establishing the power of the Colonial Rite that would dominate the American Colonies until Connor came into the scene, he traveled to France to recover the artifact that had eluded and haunted him for so long, the Precursor Box.

That hell saved lives, and his brothers was no better than the Mafia in their control. Dominate is a far to hash world, lead or guide is their aim. Nor is control the Templar goal(misguided to belive that), they aim for peace. The Colonial Templars isn't aiming for tyranny or what Connor made. Other than that it's good.


Which was in the hands of none other than the French Assassin, Charles Dorian, father of Assassin's Creed Unity's protagonist, Arno Dorian. With the artifact in hand and the assassination complete, while older, he feels wiser and stronger than he was in his previous years, his mind is now cemented in serving the Templar Order, seeing it to be evolved from the Colonial to the American Rite of the Templar Order.

He questions if he's wiser or stronger than before by saving maybe before both.


With that in mind he traveled to America doing....where in the hell was he during the rest of the American Revolution??!!!------------We shall continue with this right down bellow in the Butthurt Section.

I'll bet he died somewhere in Europe after hiding the PB.


Meanwhile the Modern Day Templars, Abstergo Industries, are digging into Shay's memories for....well...for what? Well for one thing, to use the memories to convince and induct a new Templar into the fold, which is a reasonable tactic, but however they also went and weaponized the memories into a message to make the heebie jeebies on the modern day Assassins....
Nice.

They are taken with the pants down as the video plays, it's a great tactic. You can read that they say the event is like the purge all over again, so whatever Otso did it hit hard, fast, brutal and effective, not surprising considered he also was part of the Finish special forces.


The Characters
If I can perfectly describe Shay in one definition, it would be this: Templar Connor.

True, but Shay isn't the first Templar with "clean hands"(or "clean" enough by Assassin standards).


He's like the son that Haytham never had! Quick to follow orders, sometimes never to consider the orders given, a bit naive at times, but also fierce, determined, and a truly good man at heart who had the best intentions for the world, seeing it safe from the destruction that his former associates would unintentionally unleash.He isn't a anti-hero as people were lead to assume, but rather an anti-villain, for this exact reason.

True.


Connor rivals him in the overall plans of keeping the colonies safe and free, since he too criticized Achilles for his manichean obsession in killing the Templars and rubbishing any attempts at forming a truce. (Well technically Achilles was a bit more open in ACIII, as he mentions that if Haytham would actually listen to the proposal)

Only difference is that Connor failed, at least he admits it. Your're right about Achilles being more open but it does't change his obsession. Still wants them dead. Haytham did listen and they had truce until Connor broke it.


One thing I would like to mention that Shay's legacy was strong enough to invoke this little bit: The Dreaded: Shay is described as being the most feared Assassin hunter in history. Even Charles Dorian, a French Assassin, can recognize him by sight! Add to the fact that he wiped out the Colonial Brotherhood almost single-handily, he indeed had become a capable man than he previously was before and a dangerous advisory for the newly crowned Leader of the American Assassins, Connor Kenway.

He's not known by name, Charles called him "The Traitor" and everyone that knows his name is dead. Both Assassin and Templar.


Adewale had gone very old from what we last seen in Freedom Cry, yet still as tough and deadly as he was before.

The most in depth analysis so far, Adéwalé got a beard and is older. However in term of his charater from BF/FC he wouldn't have supported Achilles Brotherhood. Only way he could was if he become an Assassin that blindly follows the Assassins and that in turn made him fanatic. You either die a hero or...


Achilles Davenport was a well collected Mentor of the Colonial Assassins, that overseen its day to day operations, until the death of his family, which lead him into anger and despair, causing the Assassins to charge into finding the Precursor sites out of blind and pained emotions, hence the other Assassins had taken as faith and orders, which dragged them into a doom direction as well.

He uses gangs to "control" the city, worse than Nassau on the regard. Their good at what they do but do they make a good official "police force" or "politicians" No, there was no one controlling those who control. Their just there without any direction or plans for that matter and like all type of control the gangs abuse their power.


In fact, that's one of the biggest driving force on why the Colonial Assassins lost their way, as both Shay and Liam commented:

· Liam: It's so grim about the Homestead now that Miss Abigail and little Connor have passed.
· Shay: Aye. I've seen Achilles crying.
· Liam: Why shouldn't he?
· Shay: It's just that... he doesn't look sad. He looks furious. It's unsettling.
· Liam: He's struggling with the loss. We all are.
· Shay: I know. But it's been months... and we've done little but search for this blasted Manuscript and Box!

True but it wasn't perfect to begin with, his loss pushed it over the edge with a bulled to the shoulder.


The loss of his family had just pushed him to dangerous areas to the point he became stubborn in his mistakes, refusing to believe that the Assassins are wrong in their pursuit for the site, despite Shay's warning.

He's a fanatic, he never believed the Assassins could be wrong. At least he got a reality check.


Although let this be clear, Achilles warns Shay of the power of these relics

That's before the earthquake.


and even commented that the process must have been accidental and the operation was delicate after the mission, however Shay brushed it off, believing that Achilles wanted this, when he really didn't.

That's after the earthquake, naturally Shay will barge in screaming after having destroyed a city and nearly died. So he ask what city to destroy next(I'm betting sarcasm), warns him about the Temples, then Achilles accuses him of doing something wrong and that they are going to continue looking for more Temples before throwing him out in the cold.

Shay has all the right to be mad, he destroyed a city and could have died. Not a single protagonist so far has done something as traumatic as destroying a city, seeing the damage, all the lives lost and nearly died of it. The only one that can be compared on the regard is Desmond who could have let humanity burn to not release Juno.


Liam O'Brain was Shay's best friend and seen as an older sibling to him. And as all big brothers, he kept him in line, and wishes to see him to become a great Assassin and overall person.

True.


Even an Assassin to the end, he still hoped that the world that Shay will make is a good one, although it is debatable that if he is being sarcastic or not, due to his pain at Shay's betrayal.

It's ironic that he says that, both Assassins and Templars fight for the same world. And they turned on Shay, he didn't harm anyone when forced to escape. They didn't bat an eye when Achilles ordered them to stop him(including death if needed).


Hope Jenson was Shay's heart throb and a death that truly wounded Shay, a pain that is set in equal to Liam.

Shay didn't want to kill any of them, he says sorry and ask for forgiveness to most of them. It did wound him.


While she was tough on Shay during training sessions, she did so only that Shay can become a better man than he was.

And an a$$hole, there is also the fact that she controlled the gangs.


It seems that it hints the relationship was becoming close and more just than friends, as after the training session at the homestead, she wanted to invite Shay to dinner! *However you have to be around her before you move on to the next lesson to hear this!*

That I didn't know.


Kesegowaase was Shay's instructor on living on the frontier, but not much else on character after that.

http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Kesegowaase


Chevalier was just a **** to Shay and had it coming after treating him like crap.

Being an a$$hole shouldn't be enough to be worthy a death sentence, however continuing looking for Temples after having gottten one city destroyed should.


Aside from Haytham, the rest of the Templar crew were ok.

Haytham wasn't that much different, his supposed "brutality"(killing those he interrogate) isn't bad by Assassin standards. As far as I'm aware the Assassins kill more people working for the Templars or people doing their job than Templars.


The Pros
Well for starters the gameplay was pretty much a copy and paste Black Flag, abet with some tweaking and a few replacements/changes here and there. To me, as a last gen game, it didn't hit me so much as some people did.

Rogue is no different than Revelations and on some level Brotherhood. It's not meant to be this big changer like AC3 or Unity. It knows it's limits.


It was a smooth transition from one game to another, without any complexity to get you started. It was even good enough for newbie players to get the hang of things.

True.


One big love I had was the North Atlantic, it was JUST ****ING BEAUTIFUL! The water, the weather, the ice, the environment, everything just flowed so wonderfully, I loved hanging around there more than in the River Valley. The River Valley too is a nice place to be around, the colors, the places, it was all very neat. Tree climbing there can be a drag though, as there are much more dead ends and linear that the Frontier in ACIII.

Agree.


I love the idea on how being a Templar means being hunted by Assassins, by land and sea. The crafting system is nice, although it should be more realistic in terms of making said items, i mean why two huge *** whale skins to make a pouch?

Agree, the last part is also a problem with AC3 and Black Flag.


The economic system really shows how the Templars get much more bank than the Assassins!

By renovation, witch makes sense since it helps the city's and people. Better condition for everyone.


I love the feeling of getting that much chedder, it almost made me stay on the side of the Templars lol!

We got cookies!


However this is the part where they made me turn away screaming my head off away from the Templar recruitment hut...

This is gonna be fun.


The Misguided and Butthurt: AKA the Cons
The game's story.......:(
If there was one thing that bothered me the most, was the fact that for a Templar game, it did explore on what it means to be a Templar.

It did it better than AC2, ACB or Unity, not a reliable source. Do really think corrupt, extremist or misguided people who pervert the Templar goals are doing things right? And it's naive to believe Assassins know anything about what it means to be one(like Bellec) or their goals(like Kidd).


Confused? Well so was I! For a Templar game, it never filled me in on what it means to be a Templar.

Actually consider how Shay worked he would either be a Grand Master or Templar Agent. There is enough evidence in the series.


The meat of the hamburger, the main ingredient of the pie, the foundations of the Order!

This I agree on, we should have gotten a Templar Codex or something after The Age of Reason. The big change of the order. More lore on the case.


It never even attempted to try. We seen on past games on what it means to be an Assassin, from their Creed, their philosophy, and their actions.

Well most of it can easily be found, so instead of saying what it means it showed us. It's not rocket science.


They believed that to achieve peace, it must be freedom of choice that leads the way. As Al Mualim had mention in the first game:
§ Al Mualim: What do he and his followers want? A world in which all men are united. I do not despise his goal, I share it. But I take issue with the means. Peace is something to be learned, to be understood, to be embraced.
§ Altaïr: He would force it.
§ Al Mualim: And rob us of our free will in the process.
§ Altaïr: Strange, to think of him in this way...
§ Al Mualim: Never harbor hate for your victims, Altaïr. Such thoughts are poison, and will cloud your judgment.

True about it being trough choice but poor choice of quotes.


We even see how Ezio explains the Creed even further in both Revelations and in Embers, however we get no such thing in Rogue.

Like AC2, Brotherhood and Unity. All those did a poor job at that. I agree it's a flaw of the game but that flaw could have been avoided if all games where completely gray.


We never see why the Templars are truly right in their mind set.

Not in AC2, ACB or Unity either when it comes to the Assassins. It's the typical comic stories where you know have to kill bad guys to save the world. As for games that does show it we'd have Revelations, AC3 and Black Flag. AC(1) is the most balanced in writing. It can argue for the Assassins or against them, it can argue for the Templars or against them. The others is either black and white or unbalanced.


We hear talks of Haytham saying "Under our rule, all would be equel" However we never see the deeper foundations of it.

Maybe because Connor prevented it. Shay simply pushed the Assassins away, still much than can or could be done before they start planning on taking over the slave nations and actually improve the world.


At least, while naive, Connor had the mindset that if he helped the revolutionaries, they would in turn help him secure his land and slowly see that living side by side in peace is the way to go.

And he failed really bad at it. He had succeeded if he was a Templar, never broke the truce or never killed William Johnson.


Of course we see that never came to be and Connor, while wounded by this outcome, he remains firm in improving life in the colonies, believing that things can still change for the better, even if he doesn't live to see the results.

Witch is why the Templars are better than the Patriots. They aimed for a better future for all, a world where people can live side by side in peace. They could have accomplished that, if it wast for Connor. The Patriots did the opposite.


We never see why Shay believed that installing forced peace into the people is the right way to go, or even seen if it is the right way.

*change in leadership* They plan to replace the current corrupt to accomplish their goals, how is forcing equality bad? Are you saying the Templars shouldn't end slaver because having big awesome wars is a better way? That's unneeded blood shed. Are you saying the Templars allowing the natives to live on their land bad? Im sure I can find more, if I look up the history after the AR.


We only see that Shay joined out of necessity to prevent the Assassins from causing further causalities, but after that nothing more on the Templar's tenets and their plans on how to establish peace in the New World.

While correct you know that if he did they would repeat everything Haytham said in AC3? We already know the goals of the Colonial Templars. It's also highly possible Shay was told of screen(a book would have solved this).


If anything, we missed the one of the three tenets of how each protagonist transforms to their respective cause.

1. Encounter of the Order, by either wanting revenge, justice, or redemption.
2. Learning about the cause and functions during the course of their lives.
3. After years of experience and understanding of the cause, the protagonists makes a speech that culminivates their life experience and dedication to the cause.

True.


We only see Shay go through Step One and Three. The only reasons we see is, other than nessacity, simply that the Assassins suck and nothing more.

Like AC2, ACB or Unity regarding Templars. Same flaw in writing.


Must I even mention the character consistency in Rogue for Shay to be messed up? Shay has a lot of objections to how the Assassins do things. He, oddly enough, fails to bring up any objections to how the Templars operate.

Same as above, simply bad writing.


Various times it was mentioned that Wardrop and Washington were slavers and native exterminators, and yet was called good by his fellow Templar Gist, with him just agreeing with them?

Grist was talking about then as a person, he drinks a lot with them. As for those two, they wasn't killed for doing those things.They didn't kill them until they had the Manuscript and the damed Box. There is also the fact that if they where killed for that there is hundreds of other colonist that's either slavers or has done something like that, that they don't kill for simply not being a Templar. I get they hunt bad people at times but they should at least have a bigger horizon of targets.


That doesn't make sense at all, why say yes to these actions? Talk about Moral Myopia!

Like Connor not killing his allies that is slavers or Washington for massacring natives. Same case.


The man is against slavery and even befriended an entire tribe so why didn't he speak up when this talk about how these slavers and genocides are good folks?

He already killed them, agreeing how they are as a person is different from agreeing with how they act.


If there was one thing that got me form the ending is Shay's mental state.

Expected this, not surprised at all. More originality would be nice.


He had become a full fledged Master Templar, but at the same time, he became the very thing that he fought against: In his final scene, he implies that the Templars will have to start a revolution to gain power.

More like a way of saying they are gonna balance the scale, Connor ended the Colonial Templars. So he can end an Assassin Order in Europe in return.


Given how much lives those cost, it's pretty clear that Shay (despite joining the Templars to stop needless death) is willing to commit mass murder to further his goals.

He didn't start the FR(Germain did) and it would be out of character to support it.


Everyone knows that any type of Revolution would costs lives, and seeing how the French Revolution occurred and how the fanatic Templars brought down the original Templar Order in France, which by the way had just established a successful peaceful truce between their rivals, the French Assassins.

True. And Connor started the AR by helping the Patriots. Without him there wouldn't have been a war. And they turned on him so he messed up in more way than one. Eseosa started the Haitian Revolution, but I wouldn't call it bad since it ended slavery in Saint-Dominigue. And the French Brotherhood is responsible for putting Napoleon in power and him invading Egypt. All orders have their bad moments, neither is perfect.


Some might say that "how would he know of such a thing, if he did, then he would have never supported it".

You seem to forget it's out of character and that Lafrenière had contacted Templars all around the world to fight against Germain. For all we know Shay might not be a Grand Master at all but a freelance Templars working all over the place. He also has the Precursor Box, so his objective might be protecting Temples from clueless Assassins investigating.


If that was the case, then why didn't he voice against this action?

Because he clearly isn't in France and working else where, had he been close we would have known in Unity. Especially since Shay killed Charles who is Arno's father, family drama is popular in AC.


Why not address this to the other Templars?

Because Lefeniére is, he is calling out to any Templars world wide to help fight against Germain. The only Templars we know who support Germain is the British Templars. Secondly we have no idea what Templar Order Shay is in during the FR. It's pure speculation by this point.


Why was there no mention of him in Unity afterwards?

Dead or working elsewhere. It's 50/50.


Some might even suggest that he became a fanatic.

By destroying his character, I could make a parody/satire thread arguing Connor us that by destroying his character, having common double standards and biases against him and the Assassins. It's tempting but I lack motivation too it, do you want to help me with that?


The Templars have resources and manpower that extends enough from their rivals to keep them at their toes, so it would be impossible for Shay to not be in the loop of the actions of other Templars.

While true it would depend on Shay by this point, do they know of him? Every Templar and Assassin that do know him is dead. Is he a Grand Master? If he is then he I'd guarantied to know. Is a Templar Agent? The awnser can be anything in this. Is he a freelance Templar that isn't bound to any order? Possible, works where he is taken. Could know then. Is he a lone worker? Possible. Is he hunting for Temples to protect? Possible. Is he hiding the Precursor Box? Possible. Is he dead? Possible. I expected you to ask far more questions than those you do, especially consider how much you want the lore extended.


The War Letters pretty much proved that the Assassins and Templars had kept in consistent contact with one another, and it would be nearly impossible for Shay to not know the bare minimum of outside Templar Activity.

True, still some chance of not since that would depend on him and what he does then.


Look how the French Brotherhood recognized Connor's actions in America.

Fair point.


If at least two of its members noted his actions, then surly such an action like the fanatical Templars would have made Shay spring into action?

That's assuming he only sits on his arse until the FR happen, since he isn't in a Unity the possibly of him working elsewhere is more possible.


What does this all even mean?

That he's doing stuff elsewhere or dead. Does't mean he support the mass murder.


Shay I thought you hated people that do this, what the hell man?!

And now you're acting like he support it etine no evidence other than speculation.


As for the Modern Day characters, these guys are not only egotistic but just plain evil as well.

True, but killing your enemy isn't evil. It's not like they are gonna stop fighting and let the Assassins kill them one by one


We see Shay suffer through all his hardships and regrets of killing his former friends, and yet despite Ostro Berg being a Shay fanboy, he disrespects his memory by using it as weapon to scare the Assassins that "we are the big bad Templars that are coming for you, and going to wipe you out like Shay did" ignoring the fact that Shay really didn't want to and if anything he too proposed peace between the Assassins and Templars.

He already disrespected the Templars by joining the MD ones since they disrespect what they fight for, what their goals are, what their ideology is about and their goals. It should be obvious by this point.


Its a poor tactic too, might I add, as it just alerts the Assassins and causes them to plan their actions more carefully, which would make Templar attacks more difficult if the Assassins know that they are coming. Egotistic much Juhani?

The Assassins disagree, they said it's like The Great Purge all over again and that they need to hide. They got thrift *** kicked and it worked smoothly.


Plus they got footage of Connor punding Templar *** into the dirt, so why would they fear Shay's memories?

It's not meant to scare them, to convert those they can and kill the other.


Final Thoughts
While the game was good overall, it had some issues that from time to time, just put me off. Some things just didn't correct and function right. However, at least it surpassed Unity in terms of story, and thats saying alot after seeing my writing on its cons.If anything, my wish to see a conclusion to Connor, Arno, Aveline, and now Shay is at an all time TO THE MAXIMUM!

You make it sound like you liked it more than it appears.


I want to see how Shay is right now, why didn't he show up in AC3 *

Already touched this.


Although this proves that Rogue was a quick thought and never considered the fact on how it tied to AC3 well, which is a fan fiction amatur mistake to make*

Rogue learned it's writing from AC2 and Brotherhood, you shouldn't be surprised.


Did he realize how destructive the French Revolution was?

Would have been a good question, if we had evidence he supported it. Speculation and character destroying isn't that.


How is the encounter with Connor and Aveline go? How will they regard one another?

Based on their character I'd say peace between Connor and Shay but Avelive would be paranoid and cautious considering her experience with her step mother.


Shay is aware of Connor's existence, but is it the same for the latter?

Doubt Connor knows of him, Achilles don't speak of his former Assassin life. If he did i would't be surprised if he lied about Shay too Connor.


Are they enemies or folks that will try to befriend?

Shay purged Achilles Brotherhood for being a treat for humanity. Connor's Brotherhood isn't and he isn't fanatic either. Peace is possible.


Will Arno find out of his father's killer is in fact Shay?

He has Napoleon to deal with.


Will Arno even forgive Shay for what he's done?

He's an emotional wreck, if they did meat I'd expect him to be colder than usual like with Germain for killing Élise. However I don't expect revenge either after witnessing what happened to Élise. So I would expect him to be an a$$hole like in Dead Kings but not broken.


What did he really do with the Box?

The Box is a translator, without anything to translate he won't get anywhere. So he's either keeping it safe by having it on himself or hiding it. Take your pick.


What was Haytham's plan for it and did Shay follow through or did he have plans of his own?

Other than preventing it from happening again? No idea.


Where does this all go from here?

That's accusing there is a plan involving it.


7 3/4s /10

I'd put as hight as other fan-faction written fan favorites in the series, people love cartoons. So I'll either rank it as hight as AC2 or Brotherhood.

Mr.Black24
07-19-2015, 11:06 PM
That hell saved lives, and his brothers was no better than the Mafia in their control. Dominate is a far to hash world, lead or guide is their aim. Nor is control the Templar goal(misguided to belive that), they aim for peace. The Colonial Templars isn't aiming for tyranny or what Connor made. Other than that it's good. Yeah I know, but that doesn't mean that Shay doing all of this was easy, thats what I mean. Seeing his former friends die by his hand was hell for him. It took a toll on him. Thats hell.




Only difference is that Connor failed, at least he admits it. Your're right about Achilles being more open but it does't change his obsession. Still wants them dead. Haytham did listen and they had truce until Connor broke it. I'd rather not go back to this argument again.




He uses gangs to "control" the city, worse than Nassau on the regard. Their good at what they do but do they make a good official "police force" or "politicians" No, there was no one controlling those who control. Their just there without any direction or plans for that matter and like all type of control the gangs abuse their power.
Of course, not saying that he was perfect either, just simply pointing out what he done. In theory, the idea of controlling gangs, for one who controls the gangs, controls the rate of crime. And it would have lessen the pressure on the people, however we seen what happens if strong discipline and control isn't enforced.




That's after the earthquake, naturally Shay will barge in screaming after having destroyed a city and nearly died. So he ask what city to destroy next(I'm betting sarcasm), warns him about the Temples, then Achilles accuses him of doing something wrong and that they are going to continue looking for more Temples before throwing him out in the cold. It shows that both are in the wrong, of course Shay has the right to be mad, and Achilles did take his intentions too far. If only both sides were calm enough to listen to one another, things could have been different. But it wasn't so!




Shay has all the right to be mad, he destroyed a city and could have died. Not a single protagonist so far has done something as traumatic as destroying a city, seeing the damage, all the lives lost and nearly died of it. The only one that can be compared on the regard is Desmond who could have let humanity burn to not release Juno. Yup!





*change in leadership* They plan to replace the current corrupt to accomplish their goals, how is forcing equality bad? Are you saying the Templars shouldn't end slaver because having big awesome wars is a better way? That's unneeded blood shed. Are you saying the Templars allowing the natives to live on their land bad? Im sure I can find more, if I look up the history after the AR. Changing the infrastructure from the inside is good and all, but killing the natives that had the right to be mad after having William constantly lie to them? That is the point I'm making, if your going to change society, dont just kill off native folks. Its the racial powers that had that same idea in the 1800s, "Oh we are going to send native children to boarding schools, we educating them that white society is good, kill the native not the child"

That is wrong, that is not only racism, but violent assimilation and racial identity rape.




While correct you know that if he did they would repeat everything Haytham said in AC3? We already know the goals of the Colonial Templars. It's also highly possible Shay was told of screen(a book would have solved this). Why not? Talk about it and go more in depth with it, then talk about the Templar tenets and have Shay see why this path is good.





Grist was talking about then as a person, he drinks a lot with them. As for those two, they wasn't killed for doing those things.They didn't kill them until they had the Manuscript and the damed Box. There is also the fact that if they where killed for that there is hundreds of other colonist that's either slavers or has done something like that, that they don't kill for simply not being a Templar. I get they hunt bad people at times but they should at least have a bigger horizon of targets.



[QUOTE=Hans684;10929994]Like Connor not killing his allies that is slavers or Washington for massacring natives. Same case. That would fall in the ideals of vengeance, and that is a selfish motive. Connor would not endanger the already unstable state of the colonies by killing the man who burned his village out of impulse of emotions. That would endanger everyone and Connor is aware of this.






He didn't start the FR(Germain did) and it would be out of character to support it.

You seem to forget it's out of character and that Lafrenière had contacted Templars all around the world to fight against Germain. For all we know Shay might not be a Grand Master at all but a freelance Templars working all over the place. He also has the Precursor Box, so his objective might be protecting Temples from clueless Assassins investigating.

That might be true, but like my thoughts, that too is a theory. Besides, he could have store it in a safe location then traveled to France to address the issue.



Because he clearly isn't in France and working else where, had he been close we would have known in Unity. Especially since Shay killed Charles who is Arno's father, family drama is popular in AC. America and France are far away and yet the French Assassins are aware of Connor's actions. How can Shay ignore the actions of the fanatics in France?



Because Lefeniére is, he is calling out to any Templars world wide to help fight against Germain. The only Templars we know who support Germain is the British Templars. Secondly we have no idea what Templar Order Shay is in during the FR. It's pure speculation by this point. It is irrevelent on bring up Lefeniére, what my point is, why wasn't it Shay the first one to say this? Yes it is speculation but they're not strong enough to hold up. How can Shay possibly ignore the mass loss of life over there?





While true it would depend on Shay by this point, do they know of him? Every Templar and Assassin that do know him is dead. Is he a Grand Master? If he is then he I'd guarantied to know. Is a Templar Agent? The awnser can be anything in this. Is he a freelance Templar that isn't bound to any order? Possible, works where he is taken. Could know then. Is he a lone worker? Possible. Is he hunting for Temples to protect? Possible. Is he hiding the Precursor Box? Possible. Is he dead? Possible. I expected you to ask far more questions than those you do, especially consider how much you want the lore extended. I asked questions such as this a bunch before that I thought people already know.





That's assuming he only sits on his arse until the FR happen, since he isn't in a Unity the possibly of him working elsewhere is more possible. Yes, and I want to know what it is that warrents him to stay put and not go over and smack some sense on the fanatic Templars.




That he's doing stuff elsewhere or dead. Does't mean he support the mass murder. Yeah and I want to know what it is.




And now you're acting like he support it etine no evidence other than speculation. I simply addressed that some people think that he is a fanatic too, not that I believe it. Its just a theory I mentioned, nothing more.




The Assassins disagree, they said it's like The Great Purge all over again and that they need to hide. They got thrift *** kicked and it worked smoothly.


It's not meant to scare them, to convert those they can and kill the other.

I want to know this, how did Abstergo find out about their network? They created a new one to avoid Templar eyes, how did they find it so quickly? Plus how the writers wrote on Ostro's plan and the Assassins' reaction to it is just as dumb.




You make it sound like you liked it more than it appears. I did enjoy the game, simply this thread is mostly to point out its flaws, and there is a lot of it. However it wasn't enough to spoil my experience, just wished that they gave more explanation on Shay and the Templar Order.

Sorrosyss
07-20-2015, 01:13 PM
Nice write up. I share a lot of your thoughts about the game, especially on the level of Templar content. There just wasn't enough depth, with you easily spending over half the game as an Assassin still. It's also one of the shortest stories in the series, pretty sure I did the story in under 9 hours, which puts it below even Liberation which is a shame. Rogue's playtime is very much bumped up by collectibles alas. Though you should try the legendary ships, those are fun. :p

I still want to see a full Templar title. No turncoat Assassin. Just someone inducted, and totally loyal. A genuine story from the other side, with all the insights and intrigue that goes on within the order. There is so much potential that is untapped.

As for Shay, by all accounts he never made it out of Paris. We know he was in possession of the box and manuscript, and these somehow ended up in the catacombs of Paris. I just think it makes logical sense that he somehow got ambushed before he left alas.

As for Connor, Aveline etc. Who knows? But both pretty much dealt with their biggest immediate threats. One can only assume that they had quieter adventures afterwards. Hence why we have moved onwards in time since.


As for Berg, I don't think the Shay video was really that relevant, other than proving that Assassins do abandon their creed. I think it was more Abstergo demonstrating that they know the Assassins are in their network, and this was a message to them all to scare them off. That plus those fearing the purge may have paniced, run out of their hideaways, and got mowed down by Templar snipers. Purge 2.0 and all that. Quite clever when you think about it. I still hated playing as a tablet wielder though.

Despite all this, I still liked the game far more than Unity, that's for sure. I just hope it encourages Ubisoft that there very much is a market for a dedicated Templar sequel or spinoff.

VestigialLlama4
07-20-2015, 03:39 PM
As for Shay, by all accounts he never made it out of Paris. We know he was in possession of the box and manuscript, and these somehow ended up in the catacombs of Paris. I just think it makes logical sense that he somehow got ambushed before he left alas.

Wait when was this?


Despite all this, I still liked the game far more than Unity, that's for sure. I just hope it encourages Ubisoft that there very much is a market for a dedicated Templar sequel or spinoff.

I don't know. The only thing is that we need a game with a Templar ethos, the Templars ethos is atrocities in the name of the greater good. Murdering whole villages to hunt one lone Assassin and all kind of war crimes should be available for a gamer to commit.

In Revelations, they tried to push Ezio in an ambiguous direction albeit half-heartedly where he starts a riot and later ignites gunpowder at Derinkuyu. Those were exceptional circumstances and stuff an Assassin does not do. Whereas Templars are routinely willing to cross boundaries and do cruel things to maintain power, influence and the upper hand over their opponents. I hate ROGUE for its story of false and contrived self-righteousness.

Sorrosyss
07-20-2015, 03:55 PM
Wait when was this?



The box and manuscript can be seen in Dead Kings, in the chest that Arno retrieves the key from. There was a thread about it recently in fact.

VestigialLlama4
07-20-2015, 04:10 PM
The box and manuscript can be seen in Dead Kings, in the chest that Arno retrieves the key from. There was a thread about it recently in fact.

It might just have been some error and rendering effect. They were very lazy in general like they failed to give Jacques de Molay heterochromia.

Hans684
07-20-2015, 06:57 PM
It might just have been some error and rendering effect. They were very lazy in general like they failed to give Jacques de Molay heterochromia.

I made the thread, it's confirmed it's isn't the Box and Manuscript. The book is random and the Box is the one Napoleon found the key in.


Yeah I know, but that doesn't mean that Shay doing all of this was easy, thats what I mean. Seeing his former friends die by his hand was hell for him. It took a toll on him. Thats hell.

True, he tried to kill himself first before hunting them. And in most the assassination he ask for forgiveness and says sorry. Defiantly went trough hell.


I'd rather not go back to this argument again.

The deleted speech and his native writing under Haytham's picture saying "I have made a mistake". Other than that I won't bother you more with it, no need to discuss it further.


Of course, not saying that he was perfect either, just simply pointing out what he done. In theory, the idea of controlling gangs, for one who controls the gangs, controls the rate of crime. And it would have lessen the pressure on the people, however we seen what happens if strong discipline and control isn't enforced.

Fair enough. It's true in theory, we are gonna use the same method in Syndicate but it's been perfected. Jacob leads them but Evie controls them and keep them in check. A more organized control than Achilles and Hope's gang.


It shows that both are in the wrong, of course Shay has the right to be mad, and Achilles did take his intentions too far. If only both sides were calm enough to listen to one another, things could have been different. But it wasn't so!

True, but Shay isn't the emotionless Batman that don't break down when he fails something. He's human like Achilles who again isn't perfect and just lost his family. Both are broken in their own way. Shay tried to kill himself and Achilles considered it. Despite it's writing I've to say Rogue is far more depressing than AC2 or Brotherhood.


Changing the infrastructure from the inside is good and all, but killing the natives that had the right to be mad after having William constantly lie to them? That is the point I'm making, if your going to change society, dont just kill off native folks. Its the racial powers that had that same idea in the 1800s, "Oh we are going to send native children to boarding schools, we educating them that white society is good, kill the native not the child"
That is wrong, that is not only racism, but violent assimilation and racial identity rape.

Yes William starting to killing them defiantly is wrong but you seem to forget that his first methods that Connor stooped(by killing btw) forced him to have to negotiate. If Connor hadn't done anything they would owned the land and could protect it from outsiders like the Patriots(Connor's allies) who turned on him and didn't unite the land or make all equal. You know, the American Dream.


Why not? Talk about it and go more in depth with it, then talk about the Templar tenets and have Shay see why this path is good.

I'm not against it, just pointing it out.


That would fall in the ideals of vengeance, and that is a selfish motive. Connor would not endanger the already unstable state of the colonies by killing the man who burned his village out of impulse of emotions. That would endanger everyone and Connor is aware of this.

Connor start of selfish by fighting just for his tribe and wanting to kill Charles for something he didn't know Washington did. It evolves to fighting for everyone(along with Patriots who fight for themselves, unlike the Templars) and the Assassin cause. And it would save more lives to kill him, let's not forget he's just impulsive of emotions against Charles who even after knowing the truth didn't do it. He's an a$$hole but being an a$$hole isn't worthy a death sentence, Breivik who killed all those on the island in Norway has a bigger reason to die. Child abuse like Charles did is only worth a couple of years in prison, would be extremist to kill him.


That might be true, but like my thoughts, that too is a theory. Besides, he could have store it in a safe location then traveled to France to address the issue.

A theory that's more likely since he isn't in Unity, his story is either ended by then or he's working elsewhere.


America and France are far away and yet the French Assassins are aware of Connor's actions. How can Shay ignore the actions of the fanatics in France?
It is irrevelent on bring up Lefeniére, what my point is, why wasn't it Shay the first one to say this? Yes it is speculation but they're not strong enough to hold up. How can Shay possibly ignore the mass loss of life over there?

Lefeniér was asking for support, so it's relevant. And there are other Templars fighting their own battles all over the world. The fanatics isn't ignored either, Lefeniére sent a letter before the De la Serre about Germain's plot. That brings up a question before it happened, how did he discover it? And after the letter didn't reach him and he died he called out for Templars world wide. If Shay was going to be in Unity that moment was the chance but he isn't. Either he's a GM and sent some people over or dead or working elsewhere.


I asked questions such as this a bunch before that I thought people already know.

You didn't ask enough then.


Yes, and I want to know what it is that warrents him to stay put and not go over and smack some sense on the fanatic Templars.

Working elsewhere isn't staying put. Except if he's dead or sits on his arse doing nothing until the FR. Shay isn't the kind of person that sits and does nothing, clearly something must have happened and it's right to ask what. For all we know he might have purged a corrupt Templar order he stumbled upon, and become natural. Possibilities are endless.


Yeah and I want to know what it is.

That's fair.


I simply addressed that some people think that he is a fanatic too, not that I believe it. Its just a theory I mentioned, nothing more.

By believing that you need to destroy his character, to destroy it you need a bias or simply dislike/hate him. I don't them them serious since that isn't his character, simply people trying to paint him bad for killing Assassins. Something they can't handle(despite we having done it since the original). Only way I can see him turn fanatic is if Yolahem writes him in a new story.


I want to know this, how did Abstergo find out about their network? They created a new one to avoid Templar eyes, how did they find it so quickly? Plus how the writers wrote on Ostro's plan and the Assassins' reaction to it is just as dumb.

They captured Erudito, imprisoned some for attacks of the company and hired some. Erudito is nutjobs but give some of them them the resources and money of the MD Templars and it's wonders they could do. To find their network they need hackers, Absergo has been harassed(with good reason) by Erudito. If they can hack them along with Rebecca and Shawn, then they can access their network(they did in Brotherhood). The Initiates Network would just be harder but not unbeatable. If they was able to write it was as bad as The Great Purge, then theirs wrote it got time to get away. The other cells that didn't write is most likely dead. It worked good enough, some got away but it's a big hit like the last one. An successful plan is anything else than dumb


I did enjoy the game, simply this thread is mostly to point out its flaws, and there is a lot of it.

It's inspired by AC2 and Brotherhood, there will be major flaws. I'm not saying it's perfect, it isn't along with 2 and B. The most comic games in the series.


However it wasn't enough to spoil my experience, just wished that they gave more explanation on Shay and the Templar Order.

Defiantly agree, Monro however deserve some credit for explaining how they want to make a better living and city for the people. And I'll give you credit for taking it over Unity(a less story relevant game than Liberation).

Mr.Black24
07-20-2015, 07:48 PM
Fair enough. It's true in theory, we are gonna use the same method in Syndicate but it's been perfected. Jacob leads them but Evie controls them and keep them in check. A more organized control than Achilles and Hope's gang. I'm actually looking forward to this game mechanic, why is everyone upset by the fact that the Assassins are leading a gang in Syndicate?
Yes William starting to killing them defiantly is wrong but you seem to forget that his first methods that Connor stooped(by killing btw) forced him to have to negotiate. If Connor hadn't done anything they would owned the land and could protect it from outsiders like the Patriots(Connor's allies) who turned on him and didn't unite the land or make all equal. You know, the American Dream. Thats right! Sell the land that wasn't really his in the first place! "Sale? This is theft!" "William Johnson intends to sell the land which my people stand upon, without their consent" Want to save the land? Fine, but ask first dammit. That's like the government taking your home and selling it, and placing you somewhere else because its for your own "protection", without you having a say in it or them giving you explanation for their actions. It took the fact that William had to explain this to Connor at the moment of his death, was a grave error on his part. If he only told Connor earlier.
Connor start of selfish by fighting just for his tribe and wanting to kill Charles for something he didn't know Washington did. It evolves to fighting for everyone(along with Patriots who fight for themselves, unlike the Templars) and the Assassin cause. And it would save more lives to kill him, let's not forget he's just impulsive of emotions against Charles who even after knowing the truth didn't do it. He's an a$$hole but being an a$$hole isn't worthy a death sentence, Breivik who killed all those on the island in Norway has a bigger reason to die. Child abuse like Charles did is only worth a couple of years in prison, would be extremist to kill him.Its not selfish if you are protecting your loved ones and their way of life. I can't believe I had to explain that to you.Plus Charles already threatened to burn down the Assassin Order, his village, and the Homestead, and killing Connor after wards, so yeah.
Lefeniér was asking for support, so it's relevant. And there are other Templars fighting their own battles all over the world. The fanatics isn't ignored either, Lefeniére sent a letter before the De la Serre about Germain's plot. That brings up a question before it happened, how did he discover it? And after the letter didn't reach him and he died he called out for Templars world wide. If Shay was going to be in Unity that moment was the chance but he isn't. Either he's a GM and sent some people over or dead or working elsewhere.Like I said before, I want a logical explanation, no theories no nothin like the sort, on what Shay was up to.
You didn't ask enough then.I felt that I did, especially since I felt that I asked so much that I annoyed people here.
They captured Erudito, imprisoned some for attacks of the company and hired some. Erudito is nutjobs but give some of them them the resources and money of the MD Templars and it's wonders they could do. To find their network they need hackers, Absergo has been harassed(with good reason) by Erudito. If they can hack them along with Rebecca and Shawn, then they can access their network(they did in Brotherhood). The Initiates Network would just be harder but not unbeatable. If they was able to write it was as bad as The Great Purge, then theirs wrote it got time to get away. The other cells that didn't write is most likely dead. It worked good enough, some got away but it's a big hit like the last one. An successful plan is anything else than dumb Now that makes sense! As for the other cells, they could have been on the move, since they can't be dead. Ostro wants to lead the attack himself remember? The Templars ain't movin till he is at the head.
Defiantly agree, Monro however deserve some credit for explaining how they want to make a better living and city for the people. And I'll give you credit for taking it over Unity(a less story relevant game than Liberation). I love Liberation, it was a good story, and I really want to see how Aveline is doing too.

Hans684
07-21-2015, 07:13 PM
I'm actually looking forward to this game mechanic, why is everyone upset by the fact that the Assassins are leading a gang in Syndicate?

No idea but I have not heard anything proving Syndicate matters story wise, wouldn't be surprised if it's another filler like Unity.


Thats right! Sell the land that wasn't really his in the first place! "Sale? This is theft!" "William Johnson intends to sell the land which my people stand upon, without their consent" Want to save the land? Fine, but ask first dammit. That's like the government taking your home and selling it, and placing you somewhere else because its for your own "protection", without you having a say in it or them giving you explanation for their actions. It took the fact that William had to explain this to Connor at the moment of his death, was a grave error on his part. If he only told Connor earlier.

Government =/= Templars. The Templars wants to replace governments. They use them but isn't fighting their battles(that's all about themselves and not humanity). The government put the land on sale, told them to leave and the Confederacy(CSA or C.A) gave their consent. It's open to be purchased by any wanting colonist and William intended to buy it. The natives would be driven out unless a buyer doesn't throw them out. If it isn't sold(like it ended in game), then they would be forced out by the government. It's not about morals, it's about how they worked back then and William knowing how the system works(unlike the natives) wanted to prevent them from being forced out. He was regardless how you twist it trying to save them. You do know there was an increase in slaver after the AR and not long after the Northwest Indian(government vs natives) happened?

Kanen'tó:kon: "Men came, claiming we had to leave. They said that the land was being sold and that the Confederacy had consented. We sent an envoy, but they would not listen."
http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/On_Johnson%27s_Trail

Kanen'tó:kon: Ratonhnhaké:ton! Ratonhnhaké:ton!
Connor: Kanen'tó:kon? Why are you here? Has something happened?
Kanen'tó:kon: William Johnson has returned - with all the money required to buy our land. He meets with the elders as we speak. I have begged them to resist. But I fear he shall have his way unless you intervene.
Connor: How is this possible? We destroyed the tea.
Achilles: The Templars are nothing if not resourceful. You should have heeded my warning.

Johnson: "Ah, no. What have you done?"
Connor: "Ensured an end to your schemes. You sought to claim these lands for the Templars..."
Johnson: "Aye. That we might PROTECT them! Do you think that good King George lies awake at night hoping that no harm comes to his native subjects? Or that the people of the city care one whit about them? Oh, sure, the colonists are happy to trade when they need food or shelter or a bit of extra padding for their armies. But when the walls of the city constrict - when there's crops that need soil - when there's... when there's no enemy to fight - we'll see how kind the people are then."
Connor: The colonists have no quarrel with the Iroquois.
Johnson: Not yet. But they will. 'Tis the way of the world. In time, they'll turn. I... I could have stopped it. I could have saved you all...
Connor: You speak of salvation, but you were killing them.
Johnson: Aye. Because they would not listen! And so, it seems, neither will you.
Connor: May the Faceless One grant you the peace you claimed to seek.
http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Hostile_Negotiations

Haytham: And what's this?
George: Private correspondence!
Haytham: Of course it is. Would you like to know what it says, Connor? It seems your good friend here has just ordered an attack on your village. Although attack might be putting it mildly. Tell him, Commander.
George: We've been receiving reports of allied natives working with the British. I've asked my men to put a stop to it.
Haytham: By burning their villages, and salting the land. By calling for their extermination, according to this letter. Not the first time either. Tell him what you did fourteen years ago.

Connor warning Washington and Haytham to not interfere
George: That was another time. The Seven Years' War.
Haytham: And so now you see what happens to this "great man" when under duress. He makes excuses, displaces blame. Does a great many things, in fact - except take responsibility.

Clan Mother: Ratonhnhaké:ton! You have returned! But why? I thought you would be with that other man.
Connor: What other man?

Clan Mother telling Connor about Charles Lee's involvement
Clan Mother: Boiling Water. The one called Charles Lee. He took Kanen'tó:kon and a few others with him.
Connor: What? Where have they gone?
Clan Mother: To push back those who would take our land.
Connor: No. This is wrong...
Clan mother: Why are you troubled? Is this not what you wanted? For us to take a stand?
Connor: I... I have to go. I need to stop them.

Connor: Peace, Kanen'tó:kon!
Kanen'tó:kon: Ratonhnhaké:ton. Come to kill me yourself?
Connor: What?!
Kanen'tó:kon: Charles Lee told me everything. The Patriots seek to destroy us. And you would aid them.
Connor: That man is a liar!
Kanen'tó:kon: He said you had been corrupted. That you would try to deceive. But here they are on our doorstep. What say you to that?
http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Broken_Trust

Another point proving William is right is when Haytham reveals who burned his village and it was happening again. Washington had no problem massacring them despite being a freedom fighter and Connor being his ally. And with none owning the land during the war Washington could attack it without being stopped by a colonist. That colonist could have been William but he's dead. He could have prevent his tribe from siding with the British and told Washington he's trespassing his land to wage war on innocent natives trying to make a living.

So obviously they are now forced to fight back and Connor continues supports the Patriots even after Washington betrayed him and attempted to "burning their villages, and salting the land. By calling for their extermination, according to this letter. Not the first time either." That is evidence enough they didn't fight for all people and equality but Connor's naively can be shocking at times. Even Haytham was surprised by how naive he was when they meet and he came with his accusations. Washington was going to destroy them and Charles knowing this warned them, gave them the opportunity to defend themselves and allow the British to aid them like they did in Johnson's time before he tried to purchase the land. Charles was telling the truth regarding the Patriots and William was right about them turning on the natives, like they always end up doing.

Traveler: If you're hungry, I've extra.
Connor: No thank you... Where is everyone?
Traveler: Gone west. Been a while since they left. Seems some fellow from New York was granted the land by congress.
Connor: What?
Traveler: Seein' it happen more and more. Government SAYS they don't take land that's already owned, but, uh...
Connor: How could this have happened?
Traveler: We're on our own now. No more Merry English parts and labor. Which means we gotta go at it ourselves. Gotta pay for it too. Sellin' land is quick and easy and not quite so nasty as taxes. And since some say they're what started the whole war, ain't no rush to bring 'em back. Clever men, these new leaders of ours. They know not to push it just yet. Too soon for taxes. Too... British.
http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Kanatahséton_(memory)

So the Government(with the consent of the Confederacy) put the land on sale for anyone to buy forcing the natives out since they don't take land they already own(their words btw). So William Johnson knowing this tried to buy it without harming anyone but someone killed his workers, guards before attacking his two ships containing tea he was selling to buy the land(economy 101: he properly has far more than two ships so that damage isn't that huge(except for every life lost)). Now since Templar is nothing if not resourceful he will be able to recover from the losses and setbacks but is forced due to recent events to negotiate. The natives not knowing the system or that they'd get forced out by the Confederacy accuses him of taking the land when he is actually the only one we know of that tries to let them keep their lands. So he could protect if from the king who does't care or the people of the city who considers it bad to be a native. And when a city of people like that expands it will force them out, it's the way of the world. So he gets killed by Connor during his negotiates when William got desperate, threatened them and killed some...

...Now the American Revolution is ended and he can live happy ever after with his tribe but wait a minute. Since William didn't own the land and it was given to a fellow in New York by Congress. Why didn't Connor's "allies" step in and say it is owned the natives? Because they didn't fight for the natives. Some are slave owners or has massacred natives before, they don't care and was using him all the time. Connor being naive believed it was a fight for all, a place where all could be equal and live side by side. He finds out they traveled west, no more Merry English parts or labor for the people living in the frontiers. They are left to survive on their own.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Indian_War

"The Northwest Indian War (1785–1795), also known as Little Turtle's War and by other names, was a war between the United States and a confederation of numerous Native tribes, with minor support from the British, for control of the Northwest Territory.

It followed centuries of conflict over this territory, first among Native American tribes, and then with the added shifting alliances among the tribes and the European powers: France, Great Britain, and their colonials.

Great Britain ceded to the U.S. "control" of the Northwest Territory, which was occupied by numerous Native American tribes. Despite the treaty, the British kept forts and policies there that supported the Natives in the Northwest Territories.

President George Washington directed the United States Army to halt the hostilities between the Natives and settlers and enforce U.S. sovereignty over the territory. With Harmar Campaign (1790) and St. Clair's Defeat (1791) being major defeats.

After St. Clair's disaster, Washington ordered Revolutionary War hero General "Mad" Anthony Wayne to organize and train a proper fighting force. Wayne took command of the new Legion of the United States late in 1793. He led his men to a decisive victory at the Battle of Fallen Timbers in 1794. The defeated Native tribes were forced to cede extensive territory, including much of present-day Ohio, in the Treaty of Greenville in 1795.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Indian_War

The natives traveled west and if ended with a war between the natives with change of support including the British who Connor "liberated"(resulted in no more British parts or labor to those living in the frontier) the land from and "saved" his tribe. So William was right, they did turn the natives and Washington(his ally) who also was the one who killed his mother and is responsible for the attack on his village. The guy fully aware of him fighting for his people turns his back on him and fights the natives in the west(with failure) until he puts Anthony Wayne in charge of dealing with them so they can enforce U.S sovereignty over the territory they moved to after being forced out because the Government don't take land they already own, resulting in a fellow from New York owning it.

Regarding Stanwix, we all know what land the Colonial Templars will dig up. The Grand Temple. Then there is also the fact that it will also be digged up by the fellow from New York who owns it since William got killed. Had William owned it they would be living on their land.

http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Assassins#Civilian_casualties

In his time, Connor ensured the abandonment of his tribe's native lands and the onset of the American Revolutionary War by eliminating William Johnson and John Pitcairn in pursuit of freedom, to his eventual regret.


Its not selfish if you are protecting your loved ones and their way of life. I can't believe I had to explain that to you.

I know it isn't but he started out fighting just for his tribe and not for all people. That was my point and I explained how it developed.


Plus Charles already threatened to burn down the Assassin Order, his village, and the Homestead, and killing Connor after wards, so yeah.

After Connor helped the Patriots resulting in a war, broke the truce and killed all the Templars. Connor had already destroyed all he cared about, it's not surprising that someone as unstable as Charles will become mad and threaten to do the same to him.


Like I said before, I want a logical explanation, no theories no nothin like the sort, on what Shay was up to.

I just gave one, if Shay was going to be in Unity fighting against the fanatics it would be that meeting by Lefeniér calling for support wold wide. But he isn't so we can only speculate on what he is doing, it's fair asking what he's up to but it has to fall in line with what we know. We know he isn't in Unity, so we have to look at other options while staying in-character.


I felt that I did, especially since I felt that I asked so much that I annoyed people here.

It's never enough, use AC Confessions to spread your questions around. Even I confess to that blog.


Now that makes sense! As for the other cells, they could have been on the move, since they can't be dead. Ostro wants to lead the attack himself remember? The Templars ain't movin till he is at the head.

Since they didn't write about the attack I doubt they are alive since as we are show the attack starts one they have gotten the video. Otso isn't leading the attack, he's the mastermind behind it. They already attacked and it's as bad as The Great Purge, that purge was bad and wold wide. Don't get your hopes up.


I love Liberation, it was a good story, and I really want to see how Aveline is doing too.

Agree.

steveeire
07-22-2015, 11:19 PM
So I just started Assassin's Creed Rogue, and while I think the game is fine apart from ALL the fecking collectables, I must say as an Irish man, it kind of turns my stomach a little to play an Irish man helping the English to colonise places.

VestigialLlama4
07-23-2015, 03:58 AM
So I just started Assassin's Creed Rogue, and while I think the game is fine apart from ALL the fecking collectables, I must say as an Irish man, it kind of turns my stomach a little to play an Irish man helping the English to colonise places.

You must feel strange looking at the statue of the Duke of Wellington (his real name was Arthur Wesley, he changed that to Wellesley because being a pretentious snob, it seemed English to him).

The message of ROGUE is that "Put a black man in charge, cities will sink and its up to right-thinking white men of vision to put him and his multicultural friends down."

steveeire
07-23-2015, 04:18 AM
Yes he was born in Dublin but he was part of who we where trying to kick out, as in the English, there was even some talk a few years back of pulling that monument to him in Dublin down, but in the end I don't think anyone could be arsed.

Mr.Black24
07-23-2015, 05:11 AM
The message of ROGUE is that "Put a black man in charge, cities will sink and its up to right-thinking white men of vision to put him and his multicultural friends down." Was that the vib you really gotten or are just joking?

steveeire
07-23-2015, 05:19 AM
Ever notice if there is a Black president of America in movies something awful happens the world or America or just the white house.

Mr.Black24
07-23-2015, 05:26 AM
Ever notice if there is a Black president of America in movies something awful happens the world or America or just the white house.
No lie dude, I don't know any movie with a black president....like we just gotten our first real one lol! I apologize for sounding ignorant, but I have no clue on which movie has a black president.

VestigialLlama4
07-23-2015, 05:27 AM
Yes he was born in Dublin but he was part of who we where trying to kick out, as in the English, there was even some talk a few years back of pulling that monument to him in Dublin down, but in the end I don't think anyone could be arsed.

Well bear in mind that Darby McDevitt who wrote Black Flag and Revelations is Irish and his pipe dream is to do a game set in the Irish War of Independence and the Civil War. Although personally I would prefer the 1798 Rebellion, obscure but interesting. It was part of the French Revolutionary Wars. I think people would be curious about the time the Catholic Church allied with the English to put down the Protestants who wanted independence (they were inspired by secular Enlightenment ideals and the Revolution which curtailed Church privileges).


Was that the vib you really gotten or are just joking?

Its very much part of the whole coding of the story. I mean they didn't think too deeply when they put it but if ROGUE was a major release game as opposed to one largely known by AC fans believe me everyone would talk about it. The setting of the story 1700s itself calls it into question you know. And the first two Templars Shay (as an Assassin) hunts (the one Christopher Gist calls "Good men") is a war criminal and slaveowner.

Mr.Black24
07-23-2015, 06:41 AM
No idea but I have not heard anything proving Syndicate matters story wise, wouldn't be surprised if it's another filler like Unity.



Government =/= Templars. The Templars wants to replace governments. They use them but isn't fighting their battles(that's all about themselves and not humanity). The government put the land on sale, told them to leave and the Confederacy(CSA or C.A) gave their consent. It's open to be purchased by any wanting colonist and William intended to buy it. The natives would be driven out unless a buyer doesn't throw them out. If it isn't sold(like it ended in game), then they would be forced out by the government. It's not about morals, it's about how they worked back then and William knowing how the system works(unlike the natives) wanted to prevent them from being forced out. He was regardless how you twist it trying to save them. You do know there was an increase in slaver after the AR and not long after the Northwest Indian(government vs natives) happened?

Kanen'tó:kon: "Men came, claiming we had to leave. They said that the land was being sold and that the Confederacy had consented. We sent an envoy, but they would not listen."
http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/On_Johnson's_Trail

Kanen'tó:kon: Ratonhnhaké:ton! Ratonhnhaké:ton!
Connor: Kanen'tó:kon? Why are you here? Has something happened?
Kanen'tó:kon: William Johnson has returned - with all the money required to buy our land. He meets with the elders as we speak. I have begged them to resist. But I fear he shall have his way unless you intervene.
Connor: How is this possible? We destroyed the tea.
Achilles: The Templars are nothing if not resourceful. You should have heeded my warning.

Johnson: "Ah, no. What have you done?"
Connor: "Ensured an end to your schemes. You sought to claim these lands for the Templars..."
Johnson: "Aye. That we might PROTECT them! Do you think that good King George lies awake at night hoping that no harm comes to his native subjects? Or that the people of the city care one whit about them? Oh, sure, the colonists are happy to trade when they need food or shelter or a bit of extra padding for their armies. But when the walls of the city constrict - when there's crops that need soil - when there's... when there's no enemy to fight - we'll see how kind the people are then."
Connor: The colonists have no quarrel with the Iroquois.
Johnson: Not yet. But they will. 'Tis the way of the world. In time, they'll turn. I... I could have stopped it. I could have saved you all...
Connor: You speak of salvation, but you were killing them.
Johnson: Aye. Because they would not listen! And so, it seems, neither will you.
Connor: May the Faceless One grant you the peace you claimed to seek.
http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Hostile_Negotiations

Haytham: And what's this?
George: Private correspondence!
Haytham: Of course it is. Would you like to know what it says, Connor? It seems your good friend here has just ordered an attack on your village. Although attack might be putting it mildly. Tell him, Commander.
George: We've been receiving reports of allied natives working with the British. I've asked my men to put a stop to it.
Haytham: By burning their villages, and salting the land. By calling for their extermination, according to this letter. Not the first time either. Tell him what you did fourteen years ago.

Connor warning Washington and Haytham to not interfere
George: That was another time. The Seven Years' War.
Haytham: And so now you see what happens to this "great man" when under duress. He makes excuses, displaces blame. Does a great many things, in fact - except take responsibility.

Clan Mother: Ratonhnhaké:ton! You have returned! But why? I thought you would be with that other man.
Connor: What other man?

Clan Mother telling Connor about Charles Lee's involvement
Clan Mother: Boiling Water. The one called Charles Lee. He took Kanen'tó:kon and a few others with him.
Connor: What? Where have they gone?
Clan Mother: To push back those who would take our land.
Connor: No. This is wrong...
Clan mother: Why are you troubled? Is this not what you wanted? For us to take a stand?
Connor: I... I have to go. I need to stop them.

Connor: Peace, Kanen'tó:kon!
Kanen'tó:kon: Ratonhnhaké:ton. Come to kill me yourself?
Connor: What?!
Kanen'tó:kon: Charles Lee told me everything. The Patriots seek to destroy us. And you would aid them.
Connor: That man is a liar!
Kanen'tó:kon: He said you had been corrupted. That you would try to deceive. But here they are on our doorstep. What say you to that?
http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Broken_Trust

Another point proving William is right is when Haytham reveals who burned his village and it was happening again. Washington had no problem massacring them despite being a freedom fighter and Connor being his ally. And with none owning the land during the war Washington could attack it without being stopped by a colonist. That colonist could have been William but he's dead. He could have prevent his tribe from siding with the British and told Washington he's trespassing his land to wage war on innocent natives trying to make a living.

So obviously they are now forced to fight back and Connor continues supports the Patriots even after Washington betrayed him and attempted to "burning their villages, and salting the land. By calling for their extermination, according to this letter. Not the first time either." That is evidence enough they didn't fight for all people and equality but Connor's naively can be shocking at times. Even Haytham was surprised by how naive he was when they meet and he came with his accusations. Washington was going to destroy them and Charles knowing this warned them, gave them the opportunity to defend themselves and allow the British to aid them like they did in Johnson's time before he tried to purchase the land. Charles was telling the truth regarding the Patriots and William was right about them turning on the natives, like they always end up doing.

Traveler: If you're hungry, I've extra.
Connor: No thank you... Where is everyone?
Traveler: Gone west. Been a while since they left. Seems some fellow from New York was granted the land by congress.
Connor: What?
Traveler: Seein' it happen more and more. Government SAYS they don't take land that's already owned, but, uh...
Connor: How could this have happened?
Traveler: We're on our own now. No more Merry English parts and labor. Which means we gotta go at it ourselves. Gotta pay for it too. Sellin' land is quick and easy and not quite so nasty as taxes. And since some say they're what started the whole war, ain't no rush to bring 'em back. Clever men, these new leaders of ours. They know not to push it just yet. Too soon for taxes. Too... British.
http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Kanatahséton_(memory)

So the Government(with the consent of the Confederacy) put the land on sale for anyone to buy forcing the natives out since they don't take land they already own(their words btw). So William Johnson knowing this tried to buy it without harming anyone but someone killed his workers, guards before attacking his two ships containing tea he was selling to buy the land(economy 101: he properly has far more than two ships so that damage isn't that huge(except for every life lost)). Now since Templar is nothing if not resourceful he will be able to recover from the losses and setbacks but is forced due to recent events to negotiate. The natives not knowing the system or that they'd get forced out by the Confederacy accuses him of taking the land when he is actually the only one we know of that tries to let them keep their lands. So he could protect if from the king who does't care or the people of the city who considers it bad to be a native. And when a city of people like that expands it will force them out, it's the way of the world. So he gets killed by Connor during his negotiates when William got desperate, threatened them and killed some...

...Now the American Revolution is ended and he can live happy ever after with his tribe but wait a minute. Since William didn't own the land and it was given to a fellow in New York by Congress. Why didn't Connor's "allies" step in and say it is owned the natives? Because they didn't fight for the natives. Some are slave owners or has massacred natives before, they don't care and was using him all the time. Connor being naive believed it was a fight for all, a place where all could be equal and live side by side. He finds out they traveled west, no more Merry English parts or labor for the people living in the frontiers. They are left to survive on their own.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Indian_War

"The Northwest Indian War (1785–1795), also known as Little Turtle's War and by other names, was a war between the United States and a confederation of numerous Native tribes, with minor support from the British, for control of the Northwest Territory.

It followed centuries of conflict over this territory, first among Native American tribes, and then with the added shifting alliances among the tribes and the European powers: France, Great Britain, and their colonials.

Great Britain ceded to the U.S. "control" of the Northwest Territory, which was occupied by numerous Native American tribes. Despite the treaty, the British kept forts and policies there that supported the Natives in the Northwest Territories.

President George Washington directed the United States Army to halt the hostilities between the Natives and settlers and enforce U.S. sovereignty over the territory. With Harmar Campaign (1790) and St. Clair's Defeat (1791) being major defeats.

After St. Clair's disaster, Washington ordered Revolutionary War hero General "Mad" Anthony Wayne to organize and train a proper fighting force. Wayne took command of the new Legion of the United States late in 1793. He led his men to a decisive victory at the Battle of Fallen Timbers in 1794. The defeated Native tribes were forced to cede extensive territory, including much of present-day Ohio, in the Treaty of Greenville in 1795.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Indian_War

The natives traveled west and if ended with a war between the natives with change of support including the British who Connor "liberated"(resulted in no more British parts or labor to those living in the frontier) the land from and "saved" his tribe. So William was right, they did turn the natives and Washington(his ally) who also was the one who killed his mother and is responsible for the attack on his village. The guy fully aware of him fighting for his people turns his back on him and fights the natives in the west(with failure) until he puts Anthony Wayne in charge of dealing with them so they can enforce U.S sovereignty over the territory they moved to after being forced out because the Government don't take land they already own, resulting in a fellow from New York owning it.

Regarding Stanwix, we all know what land the Colonial Templars will dig up. The Grand Temple. Then there is also the fact that it will also be digged up by the fellow from New York who owns it since William got killed. Had William owned it they would be living on their land. Its all good here...however, thats if the Templars actually honored this promise. After all, later generations have no problem will removing millions of people if it means establishing order. Remember how the Templars thought it was a good idea to help install Hitler into power, giving him an apple, and look how that turned out! Mass genocide for non Germans, like the Jews. By the 1930s, Hitler was under the influence of the Templar Order, obtaining an Apple of Eden from Templar industrialist Henry Ford, intending for him to use it to start World War II. Alongside fellow Templar puppet Joseph Stalin, Hitler brought on the turmoil and fear necessary for Abstergo Industries to take control of the working population.

Who says that future Templars, or even the Colonial Templars, wouldn't wipe out the Natives, if it meant for the sake of "progress"?



I just gave one, if Shay was going to be in Unity fighting against the fanatics it would be that meeting by Lefeniér calling for support wold wide. But he isn't so we can only speculate on what he is doing, it's fair asking what he's up to but it has to fall in line with what we know. We know he isn't in Unity, so we have to look at other options while staying in-character. Thats just it, its a good speculation. But I demand a good answer from Ubisoft on why he didn't show up. Unless its for a good reason, then the guy is a hypocrite for killing off one order that indirectly caused thousands of innocent deaths, but is ok with or ignoring the fact that the fanatical Templars are out doing exactly what he wanted to prevent long ago. And that would ruin his character, unless he degraded to that level. After all, in the general rule of writing and lore for any story, character progression can both go either good or bad.




It's never enough, use AC Confessions to spread your questions around. Even I confess to that blog. I do from time to time. I want the Podcast to be up again, the folks at Tumblr like it, and they want to voice their opinions too. Since Ubi members hear our podcast too, it would truly set the bridge for us all.

YO FATAL, where you at lol?




Since they didn't write about the attack I doubt they are alive since as we are show the attack starts one they have gotten the video. Otso isn't leading the attack, he's the mastermind behind it. They already attacked and it's as bad as The Great Purge, that purge was bad and wold wide. Don't get your hopes up. How was he the mastermind and not lead the attack? He even said that he wants to too, remember? "So when the day comes when they finally meet me, they would gladly embrace the death I offer them."




Its very much part of the whole coding of the story. I mean they didn't think too deeply when they put it but if ROGUE was a major release game as opposed to one largely known by AC fans believe me everyone would talk about it. The setting of the story 1700s itself calls it into question you know. And the first two Templars Shay (as an Assassin) hunts (the one Christopher Gist calls "Good men") is a war criminal and slaveowner. I never saw it that way, and I don't think anyone else does either. Trust me, I would know, as Tumblr is good at pointing stuff like this out.

And yes, those two had always been the worst...but a certain someone doesn't think so! I mean seriously dude, they didn't do the action, but they well did tell others to do it for me. In that sense, that's like saying Hitler did nothing wrong.

Namikaze_17
07-23-2015, 07:41 AM
I'm actually looking forward to this game mechanic, why is everyone upset by the fact that the Assassins are leading a gang in Syndicate?

Because some of our more purist-driven fans consider it "un-assassin-y" and would prefer things to be done the "traditional" way( Even though the Assassins have conspired with gang-like organizations in the past); They also fail to realize that each period, brotherhood and assassin are different and require each to operate differently and use other means to achieve their goals - whether it be to take out individual targets alone like Altaïr or Connor did - or using outside help like Jacob & Evie are now.

In short, it's just to add to the "True Assassin" drivel people talk about.

VestigialLlama4
07-23-2015, 07:48 AM
And yes, those two had always been the worst...but a certain someone doesn't think so! I mean seriously dude, they didn't do the action, but they well did tell others to do it for me. In that sense, that's like saying Hitler did nothing wrong.

Well anyone who says "Hitler did nothing wrong" is extremely wrong, especially for Templars who supposedly know that social structures are bulls--- and whatnot. The Nazis who disliked Hitler but were in it for power and influence are worse human beings than the true believers after all. Rogue doesn't address that at all, so you have this earthquake machine nonsense that gives a justification for Shay to hunt down the Assassins and Templars be "right". It's a BS excuse. The fact is for someone like James Wardrop and Lawrence Washington to be prominent Templars and held in high regard means that the Templars sees nothing wrong with it, and they see plenty wrong in a multi-ethnic franchise Assassin brotherhood headed by Achilles.

To me the idea of "Good Templars" given what we know from the earlier games is mostly a case of a False Good Idea. I mean it comes from wanting to make the conflict gray but it does so in a way that doesn't challenge or address how Templars were shown earlier or in the expanded lore. Logically it doesn't make sense given what we know of history. Templars can't hold any influence in New World society, especially Pre-Revolutionary America, if they were truly "enlightened". If they made a stand against slavery or Native American genocide than nobody would invite them to parties or do business with them, they would be the SJWs of their day. So the Templars can be powerful but not enlightened certainly, some of them will use pragmatic justifications for instance.


I never saw it that way, and I don't think anyone else does either. Trust me, I would know, as Tumblr is good at pointing stuff like this out.

Well most people don't take Rogue all that seriously to start with. Its seen as a side game and so under the radar and has mostly benefitted from Unity's backlash. If it had been an annual release with UNITY delayed till next year, believe me it would be given greater scrutiny. I think Rogue is pretty much the worst and most dishonest game in the franchise, with Unity a close second. I actually wouldn't have a problem with this if the game were honest. Have Shay get his hands dirty, like have him slaughter a Native American village or burn down a town of innocent people to find one lone Assassin, then I can buy him and the story they're telling. In Apocalypse Now, the hero Willard murders an entire boat of innocenct fisherman because the movie is honest about who he is and what he does.

Kaschra
07-23-2015, 04:51 PM
The message of ROGUE is that "Put a black man in charge, cities will sink and its up to right-thinking white men of vision to put him and his multicultural friends down."
Congrats, this is the dumbest **** I read in a while!



Well most people don't take Rogue all that seriously to start with. Its seen as a side game and so under the radar and has mostly benefitted from Unity's backlash. If it had been an annual release with UNITY delayed till next year, believe me it would be given greater scrutiny. I think Rogue is pretty much the worst and most dishonest game in the franchise, with Unity a close second. I actually wouldn't have a problem with this if the game were honest. Have Shay get his hands dirty, like have him slaughter a Native American village or burn down a town of innocent people to find one lone Assassin, then I can buy him and the story they're telling. In Apocalypse Now, the hero Willard murders an entire boat of innocenct fisherman because the movie is honest about who he is and what he does.
Aaaaaaaah yes, because the Templars are not DURR HURR EVILZ in Rogue, it's a "dishonest" game lol
Damn, I really can't take you serious anymore.

steveeire
07-23-2015, 05:29 PM
Oh Lord this Irish accent is driving me bananas, I never wanted to slap a video game character so much in my life, its almost as bad as the accent in the season of Heroes. You should be ashamed Ubisoft.

VestigialLlama4
07-23-2015, 05:44 PM
Aaaaaaaah yes, because the Templars are not DURR HURR EVILZ in Rogue, it's a "dishonest" game lol

The ethos of the Templars in all the games before is that they permit themselves everything they believe to be necessary to get something done, even if those are shady and evil things. In AC1, Garnier de Naplouse broke the legs of the mentally ill because it was better for the greater good. In AC3, Haytham ordered the Boston Massacre, William Johnson threatened Native Americans with guns. If you are playing as a Templar, that means you play as the bad guy, you are not bound by Assassin rules and stipulations anymore. The Templar philosophy is order by any means - you can be ruthless, tyrannical and despotic but so long as you have something to show for it at the end of the day, its A-OK.

The Templars have said this repeatedly and have demonstrated this repeatedly. To suddenly say you play a "Good Templar" and serve Haytham (torturer and killer of POWs) is to be dishonest. A true Templar game would be Spec Ops The Line but without the guilt, you play someone who is absolutely convinced he's right even as he does horrible things.

Kaschra
07-23-2015, 06:07 PM
The ethos of the Templars in all the games before is that they permit themselves everything they believe to be necessary to get something done, even if those are shady and evil things. In AC1, Garnier de Naplouse broke the legs of the mentally ill because it was better for the greater good. In AC3, Haytham ordered the Boston Massacre, William Johnson threatened Native Americans with guns. If you are playing as a Templar, that means you play as the bad guy, you are not bound by Assassin rules and stipulations anymore. The Templar philosophy is order by any means - you can be ruthless, tyrannical and despotic but so long as you have something to show for it at the end of the day, its A-OK.

The Templars have said this repeatedly and have demonstrated this repeatedly. To suddenly say you play a "Good Templar" and serve Haytham (torturer and killer of POWs) is to be dishonest. A true Templar game would be Spec Ops The Line but without the guilt, you play someone who is absolutely convinced he's right even as he does horrible things.

Gotta love this black/white thinking lol

VestigialLlama4
07-23-2015, 06:29 PM
Gotta love this black/white thinking lol

Actual events and cutscenes we see in the games are not black/white thinking. Haytham did order the Boston Massacre in AC3. Governor Torres massacred an entire island of guardians in Black Flag, the same happens in AC1. These are the "good" Templars, not Borgia or Vidic. ROGUE is not a black/white game since its a story about Shay Who-Does-Not-Make-His-Own-Luck. You can't introduce "good Templars" into a story without comment, explanation and context. Its like reading a Batman comic where Joker is the good guy and presented unironically.

In any case, you can make a game around a "Real Templar" and have it be a gray story. The fact is the Templars repeatedly believe that their bloody actions do serve a greater purpose. There have been people in history who believed and practised that, and actually got rewarded for their actions as a result of percieved successes. Slavery was justified for these reasons. Harry Truman dropped an atomic bomb for the same reason (an action that people still defend to this day) and you also have apologists for the British Empire and Napoleon. The Assassins by default stand on the side of the underdog, marginalized and oppressed. The Templars stand with the establishment. This can't be rewritten for the sake of one-dimensional wish fulfillment all of a sudden.

AssassinHMS
07-23-2015, 06:37 PM
To suddenly say you play a "Good Templar" and serve Haytham (torturer and killer of POWs) is to be dishonest.

It would be dishonest in your case but if someone else, with a different mentality compatible with the Templar ideology, said that wouldn't it be an honest statement?

Mr.Black24
07-23-2015, 06:59 PM
Gotta love this black/white thinking lol
Nah, he has a good point. Its not black and white, simply that in the grand scale of things, the Templars had always been a dark shade of grey for most of the series. Like he said about Garnier de Naplouse for example. He wanted to fix the minds of the mentally ill. Thats a good thing he wants, however, he went through violent means to get it. Breaking legs, and being abusive from time to time, that ain't helping much.

William wanted to save the natives, good plan! I would have been behind him....if it weren't for the fact that he used guns to threaten them.

Its like this, good intentions but very questionable means.

Black and white would be like the Templars killing for fun, for example, and the Assassins are out to stop them. If you remember, Altair had question every kill he makes, saying that if you want a good thing, then why do all these bad things, and the Templars would give interesting point of views that isn't black anymore, rather a lighter color, a dark shade of grey in fact. Not too dark to be considered black, but not too light to be considered light grey like a elephant's skin either.

Shay is a rare example of almost being in equal footing with Assassin greyscale colors, it helps too that he was a former Assassin as well.


Because some of our more purist-driven fans consider it "un-assassin-y" and would prefer things to be done the "traditional" way( Even though the Assassins have conspired with gang-like organizations in the past); They also fail to realize that each period, brotherhood and assassin are different and require each to operate differently and use other means to achieve their goals - whether it be to take out individual targets alone like Altaïr or Connor did - or using outside help like Jacob & Evie are now.


In short, it's just to add to the "True Assassin" drivel people talk about. Altair had said that the Assassins must always adapt and integrate into society in order to survive. We stand by the Creed and the lessons from it, not to custom, that what makes us Assassins.

Its like everyone forgot about the Codex and everything he taught us. Seriously, and they call themselves "hardcore" Assassin's Creed Fans.

Hans684
07-23-2015, 07:50 PM
Its all good here...however, thats if the Templars actually honored this promise.

Haytham unlike the government don't fake his intentions. He had been successful if it wasn't for Connor, he was fighting for his goals. He isn't the Borgia or a WW Templar. He knows their ideology and follows it as it says they should.


After all, later generations have no problem will removing millions of people if it means establishing order. Remember how the Templars thought it was a good idea to help install Hitler into power, giving him an apple, and look how that turned out! Mass genocide for non Germans, like the Jews. By the 1930s, Hitler was under the influence of the Templar Order, obtaining an Apple of Eden from Templar industrialist Henry Ford, intending for him to use it to start World War II. Alongside fellow Templar puppet Joseph Stalin, Hitler brought on the turmoil and fear necessary for Abstergo Industries to take control of the working population.

Your comparing corrupt, extremist and misguided Templars to one that do follow their ideology. It's like me comparing Al Mualim(on any other corrupt Assassin) to Ezio(before Revelations) and saying Al Mualim is the "true" one when we have evidence of otherwise. This sounds more like an excuse, simply shows a bias and since the discussion is taking that direction I'd rather end it before it blows over. Do you even know what they fight for? Their goals? Their rules? What if means to be one?


Who says that future Templars, or even the Colonial Templars, wouldn't wipe out the Natives, if it meant for the sake of "progress"?

First of because had they been successful everything I just said and what did happened would be avoided. Secondly you confuse progress with tyranny, that's been said to weak minded and not the goal of the Templars. Continue like this and I'll have difficulty taking you serious.


Thats just it, its a good speculation.

Exactly.


But I demand a good answer from Ubisoft on why he didn't show up. Unless its for a good reason, then the guy is a hypocrite for killing off one order that indirectly caused thousands of innocent deaths, but is ok with or ignoring the fact that the fanatical Templars are out doing exactly what he wanted to prevent long ago.

Sure because Shay is the only one capable of taking them down:rolleyes:
Think a moment, what is his character? Oh and by the same logic any Assassin order not helping the French Assassins are the same as you accuse Shay of being. At least it didn't go ignored by the Templars because someone called for support world wide. So in this case the Assassins would be the biggest hypocrites.


And that would ruin his character, unless he degraded to that level. After all, in the general rule of writing and lore for any story, character progression can both go either good or bad.

So you wouldn't mind Connor's character being ruined or degraded "because character progression can go in both directions". That makes it possible for Connor to be villain/bad guy despite his character being the opposite.



I do from time to time. I want the Podcast to be up again, the folks at Tumblr like it, and they want to voice their opinions too. Since Ubi members hear our podcast too, it would truly set the bridge for us all.

I know, some are easy to spot because they are comments from the forums.


YO FATAL, where you at lol?

Down among the dead.


How was he the mastermind and not lead the attack? He even said that he wants to too, remember? "So when the day comes when they finally meet me, they would gladly embrace the death I offer them."

We know the attack started once they got the vid, it's shown right in front of us. He was talking about the day he finally comes himself and they are in such a bad state that fighting against him a would be pointless either since both options would result in death.


Nah, he has a good point. Its not black and white, simply that in the grand scale of things, the Templars had always been a dark shade of grey for most of the series. Like he said about Garnier de Naplouse for example. He wanted to fix the minds of the mentally ill. Thats a good thing he wants, however, he went through violent means to get it. Breaking legs, and being abusive from time to time, that ain't helping much.

A good point valid regarding both orders. It's as extreme as Altaïr killing guards harassing the people, it's questionable. Do you kill bullies? No. So don't call that good.


William wanted to save the natives, good plan! I would have been behind him....if it weren't for the fact that he used guns to threaten them.

You seem to forget how it got to that point. All could have been avoided if Connor let him buy the land. But if you'd rather have the fellow from NY force them out, fine. It's you opinion but it resulted in a war that also could have been avoided if nobody was forced out.


Its like this, good intentions but very questionable means.

Like the Assassins then.


Black and white would be like the Templars killing for fun, for example, and the Assassins are out to stop them. If you remember, Altair had question every kill he makes, saying that if you want a good thing, then why do all these bad things, and the Templars would give interesting point of views that isn't black anymore, rather a lighter color, a dark shade of grey in fact. Not too dark to be considered black, but not too light to be considered light grey like a elephant's skin either.

True for both orders.


Shay is a rare example of almost being in equal footing with Assassin greyscale colors, it helps too that he was a former Assassin as well.

Not that rare and hardly the first good Templar.

GunnerGalactico
07-23-2015, 08:00 PM
Nah, he has a good point. Its not black and white, simply that in the grand scale of things, the Templars had always been a dark shade of grey for most of the series. Like he said about Garnier de Naplouse for example. He wanted to fix the minds of the mentally ill. Thats a good thing he wants, however, he went through violent means to get it. Breaking legs, and being abusive from time to time, that ain't helping much.

William wanted to save the natives, good plan! I would have been behind him....if it weren't for the fact that he used guns to threaten them.

Its like this, good intentions but very questionable means.

Black and white would be like the Templars killing for fun, for example, and the Assassins are out to stop them. If you remember, Altair had question every kill he makes, saying that if you want a good thing, then why do all these bad things, and the Templars would give interesting point of views that isn't black anymore, rather a lighter color, a dark shade of grey in fact. Not too dark to be considered black, but not too light to be considered light grey like a elephant's skin either.

Shay is a rare example of almost being in equal footing with Assassin greyscale colors, it helps too that he was a former Assassin as well.

Altair had said that the Assassins must always adapt and integrate into society in order to survive. We stand by the Creed and the lessons from it, not to custom, that what makes us Assassins.

Its like everyone forgot about the Codex and everything he taught us. Seriously, and they call themselves "hardcore" Assassin's Creed Fans.

^ Great post. Completely agree.

http://new2.fjcdn.com/thumbnails/comments/You+have+a+nice+ceiling+_484aefefe00b538703c8b45c4 0c9146e.gif

Namikaze_17
07-24-2015, 12:42 AM
Altair had said that the Assassins must always adapt and integrate into society in order to survive. We stand by the Creed and the lessons from it, not to custom, that what makes us Assassins.

Its like everyone forgot about the Codex and everything he taught us. Seriously, and they call themselves "hardcore" Assassin's Creed Fans.

Yep, exactly that.

Mr.Black24
07-24-2015, 02:40 AM
Haytham unlike the government don't fake his intentions. He had been successful if it wasn't for Connor, he was fighting for his goals. He isn't the Borgia or a WW Templar. He knows their ideology and follows it as it says they should. This is what happens when you break my argument into smaller segments. You miss the entire point of what I'm trying to say. Alone, my sentences make no sense to you, but if you actually read them in groups, then you would have understood that my case is that while indeed I would believe that Haytham would install a better power, however later Templars, would have no problem in trying to usurp them. After all, William himself have lied plenty to the Mohawk tribe plenty of times, who can say that later generations wouldn't try the same, but with more blood?




Your comparing corrupt, extremist and misguided Templars to one that do follow their ideology. It's like me comparing Al Mualim(on any other corrupt Assassin) to Ezio(before Revelations) and saying Al Mualim is the "true" one when we have evidence of otherwise. This sounds more like an excuse, simply shows a bias and since the discussion is taking that direction I'd rather end it before it blows over. Do you even know what they fight for? Their goals? Their rules? What if means to be one? Yeah, and it is said right here:

At various points in history, such as during the 18th century, the Templars opposed the unethical treatment and unnecessary killing of innocents, though their definition of an 'innocent' was less broad than that of the Assassin brotherhood. By the early 18th century the Templars had come to view slavery as an unnecessary and questionable practice; Laureano de Torres y Ayala for one believed that "a body enslaved inspires the mind to revolt. But enslave a man's mind and his body will follow on naturally." So strong was the Templars' distaste for the practice that at least one member, Woodes Rogers, was forced out of the Order for continuing to trade in slaves.


The nature of the Order, which involves the acquisition and the exercise of power, makes the Templars highly susceptible to corruption. Many have used the Templar cause as a shield or stepping-stone to further their own selfish desires, attaining power not for the benefit of mankind as was the decree of the order, but for power's own sake. Others like Thomas Hickey or Juan Borgia, likewise, used the Order's considerable connections, wealth and power to attain wealth and luxury of their own. Dedicated Templar visionaries, who are fully convinced of the Order's righteousness of cause and who lived in service to such an ideal, such as Haytham Kenway and prince Ahmet, are few and far between. During the Italian Renaissance, Templar goals were corrupted by Rodrigo and Cesare Borgia into seeking power and domination at all costs, which is far removed from their original noble motive. Modern Templars view the Borgias as debauched tyrants and consider their reign to be a Dark Age of the Order.

http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Templars


The thing is, as I mentioned with other examples from another post, its ok to kill many innocents, as long as its for the greater good? The Assassins at least maintain few casualties as possible, however the Templars are not above to using extremes, whenever "pure" or "corrupted". As Vertigo says: "The ethos of the Templars in all the games before is that they permit themselves everything they believe to be necessary to get something done, even if those are shady and evil things. In AC1, Garnier de Naplouse broke the legs of the mentally ill because it was better for the greater good. In AC3, Haytham ordered the Boston Massacre, William Johnson threatened Native Americans with guns."

If the Templars weren't so brutal throughout history, I would have sided with them long ago. Other than Ezio, when was the last time you heard of the Assassins planning mass genocide or murder in one event or chain events, in the name of the greater good, and I am talking about hundreds and above body count, not a few guards.


First of because had they been successful everything I just said and what did happened would be avoided. Secondly you confuse progress with tyranny, that's been said to weak minded and not the goal of the Templars. Continue like this and I'll have difficulty taking you serious. You accuse me of Assassin bias, yet you had proven yourself time and time again that you are 100% Templar biased. You might as well say that everything they do is always correct. You might as well say that stealing





Sure because Shay is the only one capable of taking them down:rolleyes:
Think a moment, what is his character? Oh and by the same logic any Assassin order not helping the French Assassins are the same as you accuse Shay of being. At least it didn't go ignored by the Templars because someone called for support world wide. So in this case the Assassins would be the biggest hypocrites.

Yeah, unless if the Assassins have a good reason that they can't help their own, then how can they call themselves a Brotherhood? Like for example, when Escosa asked the French Brotherhood for help during the Hatian Revolution, they had a valid reason that they couldn't help, since there was something big brewing that required all of their strength, however they want to keep tabs on one another in case an opportunity pops up.




So you wouldn't mind Connor's character being ruined or degraded "because character progression can go in both directions". That makes it possible for Connor to be villain/bad guy despite his character being the opposite. If there is an actual good reason, such as coming across an Apple that had totally disintegrated his mind, then as long as the route to it path makes sense, then yeah.
After all, when you saw in the Tyranny of King Washington, after every drink from the tea, he became less focused, less disciplined, and more violent and aggressive. When George asked him what would he do with the Apple and how would he be a better person than him, Connor actually hesitated and had a broken speech pattern when he tried to explain that he would use it to help the people. The lesson in that story is that absolute power have the possibility to corrupt, that even Connor had a hard time in resisting the Apple's power. Perhaps in time, he could have gone mad too.






We know the attack started once they got the vid, it's shown right in front of us. He was talking about the day he finally comes himself and they are in such a bad state that fighting against him a would be pointless either since both options would result in death.

The message was sent, but an official attack had not yet been initiated.

"In 2014, Otso Berg and Sigma team member Violet da Costa travelled to Abstergo Entertainment to have a research analyst access Shay Cormac's memories. After accessing Shay's memories of his defection to the Templars, Juhani Otso Berg uploaded Shay's memories into the Assassin network, in an attempt to break the Assassins' conviction."

http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Templars




A good point valid regarding both orders. It's as extreme as Altaïr killing guards harassing the people, it's questionable. Do you kill bullies? No. So don't call that good.
You can't compare neighborhood bullies to a bunch of armed men that would quickly and gladly kill you on sight if you piss them off, while at least you can frighten the local mean fat kid away. Since there is no one to stop them from trying again, what else would you have Altair do, chase them off, only to find out days later that these same people had killed some scholars for the fact that they "looking at them wrong"? Its like Batman, most of his loved ones would have been still alive if it weren't for the fact that he let them go. Then he is surprised that the same person he let live had went off and blew up a building of innocent people.

Besides, when you become a guard, you know that the risk is death from any enemy, moreso if you abuse your position. Look at America today on how the police get away with murder almost all the time. Its a huge subject, but the idea is the same.



You seem to forget how it got to that point. All could have been avoided if Connor let him buy the land. But if you'd rather have the fellow from NY force them out, fine. It's you opinion but it resulted in a war that also could have been avoided if nobody was forced out. Sure, if the government bought my home and land, without any consent from me, claiming that they are taking it for "safe keeping" and not telling me the real reasons why, since my home is in a simple rural spot that is bothering nobody, I would call that theft. No, corruption and theft.





Like the Assassins then. Exactly!




True for both orders. Right on the spot!




Not that rare and hardly the first good Templar. Out of all the Templars in history, Shay is a saint compared to his past and future fellow Templars. Haytham would be the second, and Ahmet would be the third.

VestigialLlama4
07-24-2015, 03:19 AM
I have no idea why people rewrite AC3 out of whole cloth. Haytham, despite his charming front, is not very different from Rodrigo and Cesare Borgia. Haytham wants to convert America into a dictatorship with Charles Lee in charge. What do Rodrigo and Cesare do? They convert Rome into a dictatorship with them in charge and make it into a backward cesspool which Ezio cures by bringing some sweet, Renaissance love-magic into town. From the Tyranny DLC we saw what would happen to an America under dictatorship and why George Washington was a better man, there is no way Haytham and Charles Lee would reject or refuse an Apple of Eden if it came their way.

The fact of the matter as much as people want the Assassins and Templars a gray-versus-gray conflict, none of the games (Except AC1 strangely enough) have actually shown it to be that way and likewise, the MD being what it is, it can never be a gray conflict. The MD Templars are plainly scumbags without exception. Rogue's finale shows what their idea of a "choice" is. In Black Flag, you have Templars who call Edward a "filthy peasant", another guy being a slaveowner and the leader being a hypocrite who massacres people for no reason. The Assassins have always been the protagonists of the games. The games are about how far you can go with the Creed, how can you live with it, what sacrifices you can make or accept. Its not about the Templars at all. The Templars are always the ones with the quick, easy solutions ("Just do X, Y, Z, and all your problems disappear" -- Subject 16).

VestigialLlama4
07-24-2015, 03:21 AM
I have no idea why people rewrite AC3 out of whole cloth. Haytham, despite his charming front, is not very different from Rodrigo and Cesare Borgia. Haytham wants to convert America into a dictatorship with Charles Lee in charge. What do Rodrigo and Cesare do? They convert Rome into a dictatorship with them in charge and make it into a backward cesspool which Ezio cures by bringing some sweet, Renaissance love-magic into town. From the Tyranny DLC we saw what would happen to an America under dictatorship and why George Washington was a better man, there is no way Haytham and Charles Lee would reject or refuse an Apple of Eden if it came their way.

The fact of the matter as much as people want the Assassins and Templars a gray-versus-gray conflict, none of the games (Except AC1 strangely enough) have actually shown it to be that way and likewise, the MD being what it is, it can never be a gray conflict. The MD Templars are plainly scumbags without exception. Rogue's finale shows what their idea of a "choice" is. In Black Flag, you have Templars who call Edward a "filthy peasant", another guy being a slaveowner and the leader being a hypocrite who massacres people for no reason. The Assassins have always been the protagonists of the games. The games are about how far you can go with the Creed, how can you live with it, what sacrifices you can make or accept. Its not about the Templars at all. The Templars are always the ones with the quick, easy solutions ("Just do X, Y, Z, and all your problems disappear" -- Subject 16).

Hans684
07-24-2015, 09:13 AM
This is what happens when you break my argument into smaller segments. You miss the entire point of what I'm trying to say. Alone, my sentences make no sense to you, but if you actually read them in groups, then you would have understood that my case is that while indeed I would believe that Haytham would install a better power, however later Templars, would have no problem in trying to usurp them. After all, William himself have lied plenty to the Mohawk tribe plenty of times, who can say that later generations wouldn't try the same, but with more blood?

Fair enough. He defiantly would be a better choice than the Patriots. Well the later Templars isn't "Dedicated Templar visionaries, who are fully convinced of the Order's righteousness of cause and who lived in service to such an ideal, such as Haytham Kenway and prince Ahmet, are few and far between." Those Grand Masters isn't there much of, power corrupts.


Yeah, and it is said right here:

At various points in history, such as during the 18th century, the Templars opposed the unethical treatment and unnecessary killing of innocents, though their definition of an 'innocent' was less broad than that of the Assassin brotherhood. By the early 18th century the Templars had come to view slavery as an unnecessary and questionable practice; Laureano de Torres y Ayala for one believed that "a body enslaved inspires the mind to revolt. But enslave a man's mind and his body will follow on naturally." So strong was the Templars' distaste for the practice that at least one member, Woodes Rogers, was forced out of the Order for continuing to trade in slaves.


The nature of the Order, which involves the acquisition and the exercise of power, makes the Templars highly susceptible to corruption. Many have used the Templar cause as a shield or stepping-stone to further their own selfish desires, attaining power not for the benefit of mankind as was the decree of the order, but for power's own sake. Others like Thomas Hickey or Juan Borgia, likewise, used the Order's considerable connections, wealth and power to attain wealth and luxury of their own. Dedicated Templar visionaries, who are fully convinced of the Order's righteousness of cause and who lived in service to such an ideal, such as Haytham Kenway and prince Ahmet, are few and far between. During the Italian Renaissance, Templar goals were corrupted by Rodrigo and Cesare Borgia into seeking power and domination at all costs, which is far removed from their original noble motive. Modern Templars view the Borgias as debauched tyrants and consider their reign to be a Dark Age of the Order.

http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Templars

And true.


The thing is, as I mentioned with other examples from another post, its ok to kill many innocents, as long as its for the greater good? The Assassins at least maintain few casualties as possible, however the Templars are not above to using extremes, whenever "pure" or "corrupted".

Different Templars follows their ideology different, so there is other versions.


As Vertigo says: "[I]The ethos of the Templars in all the games before is that they permit themselves everything they believe to be necessary to get something done, even if those are shady and evil things. In AC1, Garnier de Naplouse broke the legs of the mentally ill because it was better for the greater good. In AC3, Haytham ordered the Boston Massacre, William Johnson threatened Native Americans with guns."

I'm fully aware, it's not all or nothing I'm arguing. Just saying there us more too it than it's always said. I've already dealt with the William case, there is nothing to argue about Boston Massacre and while Gainer isn't good or evil, his case is far more complicated. I wouldn't be defending him either way.


If the Templars weren't so brutal throughout history, I would have sided with them long ago.

Fair enough, I don't agree with all or defend all. It's not all or nothing, sometimes I support the Templars. Other times I support the Assassins. So in that regard I have no side per say.


Other than Ezio, when was the last time you heard of the Assassins planning mass genocide or murder in one event or chain events, in the name of the greater good, and I am talking about hundreds and above body count, not a few guards.

That's the thing, they are indirectly responsible for a lot. They don't plan(usually) it "for the grater good", however the consequences of what they do can sometimes be worse than what the Templars did. Like William and the natives. Connor had a good motive, didn't plan on what came after and it just got worse. But for clear cut events, Connor helped ingnite the revolution, Eseosa started the Haitian Revolution and the French Brother is responsible for the Napolic Wars by letting hi get in power. Other events is Abbas rule over Masyaf along with Al Mualims plan of enslaving the world. And the attempt of Achilles Brotherhood useing poison gass against the authority(the casualties would be big since people live there). So their not as "pure" as people want to belive. The Hero fantasy does't work that well in AC, this is not Marvel or DC. AC is history either in the ancient, past or present. So they have started wars, idirectly or sometimes directly responsible for a worse result than what the Templars did at said time. Ignoring any of with won't change anything.


You accuse me of Assassin bias, yet you had proven yourself time and time again that you are 100% Templar biased.

That would be true, if I rewrote lore. I don't, might be wrong at times but I'll accept that. Can't always be right. In case you don't remember I have also said I copy the attitude of fans like the ibex saying Haytham is a bad guy for doing things the Assassins have always done. I like to show people how they are. But coming with arguments like the William case is simply an analysis of the events and how bad it turned while including what could happen.


You might as well say that everything they do is always correct.

I don't argue for the entire order trough history, never forget that. I know exactly when it not support them and to support the Assassins. Like MD, WW, Borgia etc...


You might as well say that stealing is right.

Finished the sentence you intended, but no. Unless I end homeless, why? Because Norwegian prisons is like hotels. I'd live well, get good food and more eduction. Context, it's all about contexts.


Yeah, unless if the Assassins have a good reason that they can't help their own, then how can they call themselves a Brotherhood? Like for example, when Escosa asked the French Brotherhood for help during the Hatian Revolution, they had a valid reason that they couldn't help, since there was something big brewing that required all of their strength, however they want to keep tabs on one another in case an opportunity pops up.

And the same apply to the Templars, including Shay. He as them might have a good reason for not being there but at least they called for support wold wide. Yet most of the French Brotherhood just sat on their arce during the revolution. They might as well have helped and let Arno alone fight them, something he more or less did.


If there is an actual good reason, such as coming across an Apple that had totally disintegrated his mind, then as long as the route to it path makes sense, then yeah.
After all, when you saw in the Tyranny of King Washington, after every drink from the tea, he became less focused, less disciplined, and more violent and aggressive. When George asked him what would he do with the Apple and how would he be a better person than him, Connor actually hesitated and had a broken speech pattern when he tried to explain that he would use it to help the people. The lesson in that story is that absolute power have the possibility to corrupt, that even Connor had a hard time in resisting the Apple's power. Perhaps in time, he could have gone mad too.

There is a difference, the Box is a translator. Not a reason to turn mad.


The message was sent, but an official attack had not yet been initiated.
"In 2014, Otso Berg and Sigma team member Violet da Costa travelled to Abstergo Entertainment to have a research analyst access Shay Cormac's memories. After accessing Shay's memories of his defection to the Templars, Juhani Otso Berg uploaded Shay's memories into the Assassin network, in an attempt to break the Assassins' conviction."
http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Templars

Fair enough.


You can't compare neighborhood bullies to a bunch of armed men that would quickly and gladly kill you on sight if you piss them off, while at least you can frighten the local mean fat kid away. Since there is no one to stop them from trying again, what else would you have Altair do, chase them off, only to find out days later that these same people had killed some scholars for the fact that they "looking at them wrong"?

Just sayin there is more too it.


Its like Batman, most of his loved ones would have been still alive if it weren't for the fact that he let them go. Then he is surprised that the same person he let live had went off and blew up a building of innocent people.

Fair enough.


Besides, when you become a guard, you know that the risk is death from any enemy, moreso if you abuse your position. Look at America today on how the police get away with murder almost all the time. Its a huge subject, but the idea is the same.

True, but someone not abusing it getting killed is another case.


Sure, if the government bought my home and land, without any consent from me, claiming that they are taking it for "safe keeping" and not telling me the real reasons why, since my home is in a simple rural spot that is bothering nobody, I would call that theft. No, corruption and theft.

This example is a bit out of order. "If the government put you land on sale with the consent of the state it's in, anyone could buy it and force you out. So someone who has supported you buys it so you don't loose and in turn protects you and the land. However he gets killed by a bloke on the street one day and you are forced out by the government and the land is given to a fellow from another city."
That's a corrupt government forcing you out and and the guy that could help you(who has supported you before) gets killed.


Exactly!
Right on the spot!

Didn't i have a Templar bias :rolleyes:


Out of all the Templars in history, Shay is a saint compared to his past and future fellow Templars. Haytham would be the second, and Ahmet would be the third.

Sibrand can be added to the list as well. There is far more if I dig trough the lore, it's all there.

Locopells
07-24-2015, 12:38 PM
Oh Lord this Irish accent is driving me bananas, I never wanted to slap a video game character so much in my life, its almost as bad as the accent in the season of Heroes. You should be ashamed Ubisoft.

You should hear some of the 'English' accents you get on US TV...

steveeire
07-25-2015, 12:40 PM
You should hear some of the 'English' accents you get on US TV...

Oh I have, there is nothing more annoying than bad accents, I keep expecting Shay to start saying top of the morning and to dance a jig.

Just finished Rogue and the game was all right, it was more linear then Black Flag and not as fun, but not the disaster people are claiming it to be, miles better than Unity though. My only main problem with is is Shea's accent it is terrible, well that and wtf is an Irish man helping the English colonise places for?


Sorry double post.

VestigialLlama4
07-25-2015, 01:10 PM
My only main problem with is is Shea's accent it is terrible, well that and wtf is an Irish man helping the English colonise places for?

Don't take this wrongly but historically many of the smaller non-English places of the UK were key collaborators of the British Empire. The Scottish who are now clamoring for independence profitted tremendously from colonial conquest and were first in the breach in the bloody battles of Indian Mutiny having a nice mantle for war crimes there. The Scottish, as recent research shows, were also huge slaveowners and owned property and proceeds from human cargo at times in excess of that in mainland England. In the case of the Irish, many Irishmen, north and south also collaborated and profited in service to the English crown. In 1798, the Rebellion in Ireland, led by Protestants influenced by the Enlightenment, had the Irish Catholic Church collaborating with the English, in exchange for this, Parliament gave rights to the Irish Catholics.

In the context of the Seven Year War, in the North Atlantic, you have the factions of the French North Canadian and their Native allies versus the Settlers and their English allies. Shay Cormac while he's Irish is a settler, he's an immigrant who was born in New York, not really Irish anymore. Most settlers allied with the English after all.

steveeire
07-25-2015, 01:35 PM
I do realise all that.

VestigialLlama4
07-25-2015, 02:07 PM
I do realise all that.

Of course I understand, in general context for an Irish person, that the first time you play an Irish descendant character you don't have an attractive personality to get behind. Like in Black Flag, Edward Kenway is Welsh but he's a Rebel Badass Pirate, who's robbing the corrupt slaveowning Empires, and he has this underdog identity of being a poor sailor. AC3 does have an Irish Assassin called Duncan Little but we don't play as him.

Shay's Irish identity is important for explaining why he and Liam would be with the Assassins (though Irish immigration only became bigger in the mid 1800s around the famine, so its slightly anachronistic), since the Assassins do tend to attract national, racial, gender outsiders. In the context of the story, you can see it as a story of Shay becoming a rat, a collaborator and a sell-out. Its basically the story of the Vietnam Protestor or the Civil Rights Activist who joins the FBI or the Republican party (which did happen in some cases). That's why I said that the story of Rogue is, "put a Black man in charge of any organization and he'll sink the world and its up to a group of right-thinking white people to stop him."

But you know it could be worse. He could be Arno. As bad as Shay's accent may be to Irish ears, imagine if he didn't speak with an accent and spoke RP?! French fans are stuck with a right-wing psychopathic royalist who doesn't even speak their language with a Maurice Chevalier lilt.

steveeire
07-25-2015, 02:27 PM
lol, I still don't understand why no accent, but tbf French people who are playing it are most likely playing it with French audio.

Locopells
07-25-2015, 08:37 PM
Jessie, the Edit Post button exists for a reason...

GunnerGalactico
07-25-2015, 09:08 PM
I've just been looking at the title of this thread
Misguided and butthurt - Is this the reviewers retrospective or that of the protagonist ;)

Lol... both actually :cool:

Mr.Black24
07-25-2015, 09:42 PM
I've just been looking at the title of this thread
Misguided and butthurt - Is this the reviewers retrospective or that of the protagonist



Lol... both actually :cool:

Yup, pretty much lol!

Like, don't get the wrong idea, I love the game, its fun, however there was also flaws to it story wise that I couldn't just look away. Its the second flawed game in story, with Unity at the helm.

SixKeys
07-25-2015, 11:17 PM
But you know it could be worse. He could be Arno. As bad as Shay's accent may be to Irish ears, imagine if he didn't speak with an accent and spoke RP?! French fans are stuck with a right-wing psychopathic royalist who doesn't even speak their language with a Maurice Chevalier lilt.

Wait, so giving Arno a terrible fake French accent would make him not a right-wing royalist psycho?

Otso Berg is supposed to be Finnish but his accent is nowhere near Finnish. It's kind of annoying because it means the actor was too lazy to do their homework, but it's not like a proper accent would have made his two-dimensional character any better.

Mr.Black24
07-25-2015, 11:32 PM
Wait, so giving Arno a terrible fake French accent would make him not a right-wing royalist psycho? Remembering that podcast interview that Loomer had with Dan, I actually liked the French take a lot more.

Plus I don't understand much on how does one actually know if an accent is a true thing. If its too weak, its fake, if its too strong, its fake. Yet there are people who genuinely talk like that. I'm not sure, maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like we all fall into this trope:

Reality is Unrealistic

When exposed to an exaggeration or fabrication about certain real-life occurrences or facts, some people will perceive the fictional account as being more true than any factual account.
This might lead to people acting on preconceptions about unfamiliar matters even in a life-or-death situation, or cause viewers to cry foul when things on a show work out in a way that actually is realistic, but contrary to "what everybody knows", like complaining of the "fake Scottish accent" of a real Scottish actor or about a character's death from a bullet "merely" to the shoulder.

Although I know Finnish, and Osto wasn't on point.

SixKeys
07-26-2015, 12:05 AM
Remembering that podcast interview that Loomer had with Dan, I actually liked the French take a lot more.


Really? I hated it. It sounded extremely silly. And it wasn't even French-French, but Canadian-French, so it wouldn't have fit in any case.

D.I.D.
07-26-2015, 12:20 AM
Remembering that podcast interview that Loomer had with Dan, I actually liked the French take a lot more.

Plus I don't understand much on how does one actually know if an accent is a true thing. If its too weak, its fake, if its too strong, its fake. Yet there are people who genuinely talk like that. I'm not sure, maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like we all fall into this trope:

Reality is Unrealistic

When exposed to an exaggeration or fabrication about certain real-life occurrences or facts, some people will perceive the fictional account as being more true than any factual account.
This might lead to people acting on preconceptions about unfamiliar matters even in a life-or-death situation, or cause viewers to cry foul when things on a show work out in a way that actually is realistic, but contrary to "what everybody knows", like complaining of the "fake Scottish accent" of a real Scottish actor or about a character's death from a bullet "merely" to the shoulder.

Although I know Finnish, and Osto wasn't on point.

This sometimes happens, but most of the time if a person who knows the accent well says it's wrong, it really is. In reality, I don't find myself thinking that real people's accents are fake :)

Shay's accent is glaringly wrong. The "Scottish" accent of Captain Cook is bananas, and on top of that Cook didn't have a Scottish accent so there was no need to torture us with it.

There are some dodgy accents in Telltale's Game of Thrones, but the VA doing Gwyn Whitehill is especially bizarre. Yes, it's a fantasy world, but we know the show. The actors use similar accents so we know they hail from the same regions as their kinfolk, and they used Earth accents to do that. Gwyn Whitehill's voice simply doesn't exist anywhere else except in her VA's head, and it's severely jarring. From the moment I heard her, there was absolutely no question that she was not British. Similarly, Élise's accent in Unity was like nails down a blackboard to me (not to say Arno's wasn't a little weird, but hers was way off), and again, they didn't even need to try for English if they'd just committed to using French actors for the English language edition too.

[edit] Which reminds me of my favourite in-joke in Arkham Knight... They acknowledged Nolan North's massacre of a London accent by writing it into the story. You overhear a few criminals talking about Penguin behind his back, and discover that he's been faking it all along!

VestigialLlama4
07-26-2015, 05:10 AM
My personal feelings about accents is that you should not be governed by false logic. In the Ezio games, the accents however over-the-top it was, served to emphasize that you are playing Italians in an Italian culture, you had dialogue peppered with Italian words and phrases, city names were italian so Rome was called Roma, Florence was Firenze and so on. Is it accurate?, no it wasn't. Authentic? Not really. But you did get a sense that you are in another time and another place, and an insider of the culture rather than an outsider. So as long as that main logic was there and enforced, it was acceptable. In AC1, you had a mix of accents to show different Crusaders and you have Richard the Lionheart speaking with a French accent (accurate since he was Angevin and spent only a few months in England) and the Assassins, except Altair had an Arabic lilt with Philip Shahbaz pronouncing Arab words, phrases and names correctly with an American accent.

In UNITY, they decided they wanted to avoid the "french accent" stereotype ("Pepe le Pew"), which I can understand in theory. But instead of say putting in American accents (like Altair in AC1) or just general colourless English without distinct features, they decided to imitate the Masterpiece Theatre and give them British accents for no sane reasons. I mean in the Ezio games, the fantasy was you are not in the present, you are in Italy during the Renaissance. Since UNITY has nothing but contempt for the period and history, why not put all generic American accents to give people the illusion that its a contemporary game with some period elements and phrases. Why do this awful imitation British accents with its own hoary signifiers. Like aristocrats talking in posh tones while street thugs talk in Cockney...yikes. In AC3 and Black Flag, you had a range of accent choices and speeches because English is the global language, and for Black Flag it was voiced by an actual Welshman. Connor in AC3 spoke English in a totally unique way, like its a textbook exactly as someone who learns and speaks a second language, way more attentive to grammar rules and avoiding contractions.

I think the main reason they kept those Accents in UNITY was that after making two games set in the Colonial Period with that antiquated English and accents, they were too lazy to suddenly shift registers. Laziness, lack of interest, purpose and ambition is there everywhere in UNITY.

EmptyCrustacean
07-26-2015, 09:53 AM
My personal feelings about accents is that you should not be governed by false logic. In the Ezio games, the accents however over-the-top it was, served to emphasize that you are playing Italians in an Italian culture, you had dialogue peppered with Italian words and phrases, city names were italian so Rome was called Roma, Florence was Firenze and so on. Is it accurate?, no it wasn't. Authentic? Not really. But you did get a sense that you are in another time and another place, and an insider of the culture rather than an outsider. So as long as that main logic was there and enforced, it was acceptable. In AC1, you had a mix of accents to show different Crusaders and you have Richard the Lionheart speaking with a French accent (accurate since he was Angevin and spent only a few months in England) and the Assassins, except Altair had an Arabic lilt with Philip Shahbaz pronouncing Arab words, phrases and names correctly with an American accent.

In UNITY, they decided they wanted to avoid the "french accent" stereotype ("Pepe le Pew"), which I can understand in theory. But instead of say putting in American accents (like Altair in AC1) or just general colourless English without distinct features, they decided to imitate the Masterpiece Theatre and give them British accents for no sane reasons. I mean in the Ezio games, the fantasy was you are not in the present, you are in Italy during the Renaissance. Since UNITY has nothing but contempt for the period and history, why not put all generic American accents to give people the illusion that its a contemporary game with some period elements and phrases. Why do this awful imitation British accents with its own hoary signifiers. Like aristocrats talking in posh tones while street thugs talk in Cockney...yikes. In AC3 and Black Flag, you had a range of accent choices and speeches because English is the global language, and for Black Flag it was voiced by an actual Welshman. Connor in AC3 spoke English in a totally unique way, like its a textbook exactly as someone who learns and speaks a second language, way more attentive to grammar rules and avoiding contractions.

I think the main reason they kept those Accents in UNITY was that after making two games set in the Colonial Period with that antiquated English and accents, they were too lazy to suddenly shift registers. Laziness, lack of interest, purpose and ambition is there everywhere in UNITY.

I understand what you mean by going the complete other end of the spectrum and just giving them American accents to highlight that they're deliberately not going for anything authentic but it would still have been bad.

AC2 actually MADE ME FEEL like I was an Italian in an Italian city which is what every AC game should do. It should make you feel apart of that world and if you're not comfortable with different accents then you shouldn't be making period setting games. As a result of all the English accents in Unity it only further makes Syndicate seem like a more refined version of it rather than a game in its own right.

Barneyboy69
07-26-2015, 11:39 AM
In Rogue why did they give James Cook a Scottish accent having stated he was from Yorkshire - He was a Yorkshireman by the way!

VestigialLlama4
07-26-2015, 12:57 PM
In Rogue why did they give James Cook a Scottish accent having stated he was from Yorkshire - He was a Yorkshireman by the way!

Especially since my favorite Templar, John Pitcairn had a decent Scottish accent as it is. I guess they thought Scottish accent sounded light, happy and comic-relief and James Cook kinda fills that role as this clueless dude.


I understand what you mean by going the complete other end of the spectrum and just giving them American accents to highlight that they're deliberately not going for anything authentic but it would still have been bad.

I don't quite agree. You have movies like AMADEUS, set in 1700s Vienna, Austria but with many American accents. Scorsese used Noo Yawk accents for Last Temptation of Christ. See THE VIKINGS (starring Kirk Douglas) you have Vikings in all American accents. These are all good movies and it feels like the past even with the accents. In terms of French-Accented English, you have actors like Vincent Cassel, Charles Boyer, Marion Cotillard and Gerard Depardieu (well when he chooses to actually act at least) speak and act well in English who don't come off as too off-putting. Obviously getting them to voice would be too expensive but you can get voice actors of similar calibre surely.

That said, UNITY would still be a bad game without the accent issues. Even with the dumb, asinine BBC strategy they took, the game if it had a good story and general spirit right could have worked around it. A lot of people would be less forgiving of the Ezio games' accents issues (which is good for its time and use nonetheless) if it wasn't a good game with decent material. Ultimately what matters is if a game have good story, decent gameplay and good characters. Voicework is supremely important but you can always take the Zelda approach of "no audio dialogue" and go text-only and make the story work with awesome cutscenes and gameplay. If you are going to include voicework, it has to be good, it has to add to immersion and it has to have personality. In other words its connected to the story and gameplay intimately.

ze_topazio
07-26-2015, 01:45 PM
I love how the American English is being treated as the default and neutral while the British English is being treated as some bizarre cliche TV invention, from British people perspective if Unity had American accents that would be weird and fake, for them the British accents are the normal way of speaking English, it's amazing how some of you are not even American and still have a typical Americentrist vision of the world.

VestigialLlama4
07-26-2015, 02:23 PM
I love how the American English is being treated as the default and neutral while the British English is being treated as some bizarre cliche TV invention, from British people perspective if Unity had American accents that would be weird and fake, for them the British accents are the normal way of speaking English, it's amazing how some of you are not even American and still have a typical Americentrist vision of the world.

In the case of period settings, American English is far from being the default. People use British English for the "period feel" even if it makes, most of the time, zero logical sense. Like in bible movies or movies set in Ancient Rome, there is absolutely no reason why British English is more "period sounding" than American. Its a stupid Hollywood connection (because the Yanks see themselves as plucky ordinary types and English people as lords, never mind that their founding fathers were into cricket, tea and as English as they come). A story set in the French Revolution among French speakers would need an acceptable subsitute, and American English would have worked. And furthermore using contemporary locution would separate it from Black Flag/AC3 (which does have a lot of English accents because the language drift had yet to kick in at this time).

Ideally of course you could have made the game in period French and put on subtitles. In movies, the American film-maker Steven Soderbergh made an amazing biopic of Che Guevara entirely in Spanish, using subtitles. But that was a small independent film that ultimately didn't make its budget back because the Spanish speaking market was not enough to score a popular success which the director later regretted making anyway.

EmptyCrustacean
07-26-2015, 02:30 PM
I love how the American English is being treated as the default and neutral while the British English is being treated as some bizarre cliche TV invention, from British people perspective if Unity had American accents that would be weird and fake, for them the British accents are the normal way of speaking English, it's amazing how some of you are not even American and still have a typical Americentrist vision of the world.

You have to laugh! Mind you, I'm British and hearing English spoken with English accents in French Revolution Paris made me wanna throw up!

steveeire
07-26-2015, 05:39 PM
Sounds Irish to me :p I'm from England and he sounds similar to someone I know. It makes sense he's accent isn't strong because he's been traveling.



not every Irish person has a strong leprechaun accent ;)
Rogue is way better than Unity especially with Unity's pathetic excuse of a modern day story consisting of boring cutscenes and random timezones.

Well I actually am Irish and live in Ireland, and I don't know anyone who sounds like Shea and I don't know anyone with an actually Leprechaun accent, the closest is probably a Kerry accent but its still not a Leprechaun accent. Shea sounds like an Irishman pretending to voice an American voicing an Irishman.


I love how the American English is being treated as the default and neutral while the British English is being treated as some bizarre cliche TV invention, from British people perspective if Unity had American accents that would be weird and fake, for them the British accents are the normal way of speaking English, it's amazing how some of you are not even American and still have a typical Americentrist vision of the world.

tbf England has a generic tv accent the same way as America does and it would have been fine to use that, but they tried to use strong English accents instead and it just doesn't have the same atmosphere as the previous games had.

steveeire
07-26-2015, 05:55 PM
No need to apologise I knew what you meant.

Mr.Black24
07-26-2015, 09:47 PM
I just want Connor, Shay, Arno, and Aveline back. Show how much they have grown, it still ain't fair that others gotten their shot.

steveeire
07-26-2015, 09:58 PM
I think having another game with Arno might be interesting, Elise was the centre of his universe, it would be nice to take a look at him without that centre, and its obvious that at some point he becomes an Assassin again.

Mr.Black24
07-26-2015, 10:16 PM
I think having another game with Arno might be interesting, Elise was the centre of his universe, it would be nice to take a look at him without that centre, and its obvious that at some point he becomes an Assassin again.
I'd like to think that Connor invited Arno to american to learn about the item that his father died for, they find Shay, things happen *as that is one big *** vague idea that can go anywhere*, mission complete, things are learned and Connor put a good word on Arno that convinced the French Brotherhood to take him back.

DA SHIZZLE IG
07-27-2015, 12:42 AM
I just knew we were going to get an add-on DLC for this game because of how it ended, NOPE!!!!!!! Like everyone is saying, this game had sooooooooooo much potential and most people were interested in it more than unity. But ubisoft dropped the ball and focused more of their attention on the "next gen" assassins game(cash grabber). Which as we all see now was a huge mistake smh. I made a thread about me thinking rogue was originally going to be the "next gen" assassins game. Unity was going to be a 2 or 3 part add-on DLC(like ac3 did) continuing shay's story leading up to AC3. Just from seeing how short rogue was and how pointless unity was this would have made perfect sense. I also pointed out how unity seemed like more of an add-on than an actual whole game as well. Rogue would have been so bad azz on next gen. The ship battles and north atlantic area would have been so epic! The level where the whole city was destroyed would have been a bit bigger and more epic as well.

I'm mad that they charged full price($65.00) for this game and I paid full price for it. It didn't feel like a finished game(lowest amount of missions in ac history, locked modern day security rooms etc etc), no multi-player(this was beyond stupid), no add-on DLC, and no bonus after you finish the game. Game should have been at least $40.00, it was really a rip off to be honest. I mean why make shay such an important character to both templars and assassins that connects 3 damn games that he had a major effect on?

I'm just gonna give ubisoft the benefit of doubt and say that shay will play a major role in the main storyline later on(whenever they decide to stop milking the series and get back to it).

On another note:

I find it hilarious how rogue was pretty much being overshadowed and ignored by the <<< unity game no matter how many people told them that rogue was better overall. But the moment they actually took the time out to play it(after the failure of unity that is) all of a sudden they see the light. lol.

D.I.D.
07-27-2015, 01:19 AM
Oh god ;) Im starting to understand this argument

As a British gal I HATE! ALL accents in Syndicate!
Also STEREOTYPES GALORE .. I mean "bloody nora" "blighters"... really ubi :mad:
The awful cockney accents make me weep.:(


The "Blighters" in Syndicate appear to be a named gang, but nonetheless, remember these things are stereotypes for a reason. "Blighter" was a common word, and continued to be well into the 20th century. There's no particular reason why Bloody Nora shouldn't have her name, is there? Gangster nicknames then and now tend to be a bit silly, but that's par for the course.

I don't really get your problem with the NPC accents either, what little we've heard of them so far (not saying they might turn out to be poor in time). The accents that stand out to me are Jacob and Evie's. They're late 20th/early 21st century voices: too modern, and they feel out of place to me for that reason.



MAKE IT SOUND LIKE UNITY! that's how we brits sound. ;)

You'd better be joking, or so help me... :D Élise sounded like Joyce Grenfell chewing Lego.

DA SHIZZLE IG
07-27-2015, 01:24 AM
@steveeire

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm pretty sure you hear the word Leprechaun tossed around quit often the moment you open your mouth or say you are irish. Something that's interesting and hilarious about these AC games. It has like the most divers crowd of all games. I don't know how many times I've seen/heard people use stereotypes on here about ethnic groups and get a response from that said ethnic group. I've never seen that with any other game outside of Grand theft auto. I remember somebody on here speaking on Transylvania and making all types of vampire accents. About 20 people from Romania came out of nowhere hella mad. People were like "WTF?, Transylvania is a real place?". They were all like "you stupid Americans and your strange obsessions with vampires, YES IT'S A REAL PLACE!". Then people from a bunch of places most people think are made up or barley get talked about came in speaking on American ignorance. The thing that made me laugh was the people talking about vampires were mostly non Americans lol.


Ethnic groups like the irish, scottish, english, british etc etc don't really get any type of real exposure elsewhere. The stuff we do get a lot from these places is the over the top accents, bad teeth, tea and crumpets, uptight stick up the butt "I'm better than you" attitudes, doing everything proper, being drunk all the time, Leprechauns, incest, rainbows, lucky charms(the cereal), knights of the round table, "for the queen!!!", james bond, game of thrones, etc etc.

But yeah, anyway, I think arno had more of a scottish accent than an irish one. Irish folks have a real heavy accent while the scottish don't(if that makes any sense). This is coming from an Americans perspective. He sounds like the highlander lol. I also noticed that old irish folk sound like Leprechauns and the younger folks don't.

Just my 2 cents.


The "Blighters" in Syndicate appear to be a named gang, but nonetheless, remember these things are stereotypes for a reason. "Blighter" was a common word, and continued to be well into the 20th century. There's no particular reason why Bloody Nora shouldn't have her name, is there? Gangster nicknames then and now tend to be a bit silly, but that's par for the course.

I don't really get your problem with the NPC accents either, what little we've heard of them so far (not saying they might turn out to be poor in time). The accents that stand out to me are Jacob and Evie's. They're late 20th/early 21st century voices: too modern, and they feel out of place to me for that reason.




You'd better be joking, or so help me... :D Élise sounded like Joyce Grenfell chewing Lego.
Yo she does have a point. As an American I can cosign the unity sounding more modern day British than syndicate lol. Like how did old school france sound like modern day brits and not so long ago London sound like old school brits? It's hilarious!!! Also Edward sounded more irish than shay did and I think Edward is like dutch or something. You know what would have been really funny?, If syndicate would have had french accents.

What I do find interesting though, is that at the end of rogue when you were going to kill arno's dad. They actually had french accents. I think after rogue ubisoft just said F@#% it!! lol.

steveeire
07-27-2015, 02:14 AM
When speaking about the Irish accent I was referring to Shea, Arno has an English accent.

DA SHIZZLE IG
07-27-2015, 03:08 AM
When speaking about the Irish accent I was referring to Shea, Arno has an English accent.
Oh, I thought edward sounded more irish than shay though. Shay sounds more scottish to me.

steveeire
07-27-2015, 03:21 AM
lol Edward was Welsh. Did Shea's name not hold any clues for you, about where he was from.

Mr.Black24
07-27-2015, 03:30 AM
lol Edward was Welsh. Did Shea's name not hold any clues for you, about where he was from.
Ya know, that reminds me. I remember when Connor talked to Duncan Little in the bar, he doesn't believe that Connor's name isn't really his, going, "Nice name, if you were Welsh. What is your real name?"

Ironically, Connor is part Mohawk, English, AND Welsh, as his grandfather is!

steveeire
07-27-2015, 03:31 AM
Connor isn't a Welsh name either.

Fun fact: It means hound lover.

Mr.Black24
07-27-2015, 03:43 AM
Connor isn't a Welsh name either.

Fun fact: It means hound lover.
I'm aware of both, simply I just stated the convo they had. I still found the talk humorous though.

rob.davies2014
07-27-2015, 02:04 PM
You'd better be joking, or so help me... :D Élise sounded like Joyce Grenfell chewing Lego.

I LOVE JOYCE GRENFELL!!!

But yeah, Elise's voice was ridiculous. I found it really off-putting. And her and Arno's conversations were SO poorly written and cheesy.

steveeire
07-27-2015, 03:32 PM
I rather poke myself in the eye with a rusty knife than play anything to do with the lowest point in this franchise.

oddyouko
07-29-2015, 03:49 AM
I just knew we were going to get an add-on DLC for this game because of how it ended, NOPE!!!!!!! Like everyone is saying, this game had sooooooooooo much potential and most people were interested in it more than unity. But ubisoft dropped the ball and focused more of their attention on the "next gen" assassins game(cash grabber). Which as we all see now was a huge mistake smh. I made a thread about me thinking rogue was originally going to be the "next gen" assassins game. Unity was going to be a 2 or 3 part add-on DLC(like ac3 did) continuing shay's story leading up to AC3. Just from seeing how short rogue was and how pointless unity was this would have made perfect sense. I also pointed out how unity seemed like more of an add-on than an actual whole game as well. Rogue would have been so bad azz on next gen. The ship battles and north atlantic area would have been so epic! The level where the whole city was destroyed would have been a bit bigger and more epic as well.

I'm mad that they charged full price($65.00) for this game and I paid full price for it. It didn't feel like a finished game(lowest amount of missions in ac history, locked modern day security rooms etc etc), no multi-player(this was beyond stupid), no add-on DLC, and no bonus after you finish the game. Game should have been at least $40.00, it was really a rip off to be honest. I mean why make shay such an important character to both templars and assassins that connects 3 damn games that he had a major effect on?

I'm just gonna give ubisoft the benefit of doubt and say that shay will play a major role in the main storyline later on(whenever they decide to stop milking the series and get back to it)..

The 6 Sequence deal made it all out like it was going to have something more in the future. (DLC or something) I was bummed when I first finished the game, and after completing it for a third time, am still quite upset that Rogue is so short compared to the other games in the franchise. I'm still hoping Ubi will come out with another six Sequence, free download to add on Rogue, but another part of me very highly doubts it. Truly, with the way they're going with the games now though, I'd rather they not continue with Shay, Connor, etc.

The one thing that really threw me off at the end credits though.. With the one guy and two ladies (forget their names) confront the player and pretty much threaten you to become a Templar, it leaves it all up to look as though it all could continue. A major cliffhanger in my eyes. Plus, with Shay having finally got the Box and Manuscript, what happens next? There's still a gap between Rogue and AC3 on that part. Does Ubi just want us to forget he has the items for the Templar Order, and the Grand Master, and to just keep him sailing the seas, never to bring the Box/Manuscript to Haytham? Several years after the end of Rogue, Haytham will be dead by Connor's hands - how will Shay react? See, there are still questions to be answered, big or small.

I'm one of those that also bought the game when it was first released, though I'm still glad I did, and enjoy the game very much, no matter how short it is.