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View Full Version : OFFICIAL Poll. did the P-51 win the war?



RedDeth
01-03-2004, 03:31 PM

RedDeth
01-03-2004, 03:31 PM

x__CRASH__x
01-03-2004, 04:09 PM
Where is the option that insults RedDeth for starting this poll? I want it edited immediately to include such an option.

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hobnail
01-03-2004, 04:13 PM
I too want that option, as well as the obligatory "I like candy" option.

Yours officially,

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Bearcat99
01-03-2004, 04:13 PM
No................

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VW-IceFire
01-03-2004, 04:14 PM
Where's the option where it says - No one element in war wins a war but instead the sum total does.

- IceFire
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DONB3397
01-03-2004, 04:29 PM
I think we've done this thread twice in the past two days. Read the posts, tally the votes.

Winning isn't everything;
It's the only thing!
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Maple_Tiger
01-03-2004, 04:56 PM
I voted that it did not win the war. It was one of the best plane's in WW2 but it was not the best plane.

I also think that we could have still won the war even if we just used the P-47 until the end of the war.

JaguarMEX
01-03-2004, 05:22 PM
I think the russians could have still won the war without the allies support, IMHO http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

In May 1942, Nazi submarines sank two Mexican tankers, and Mexico declared war against the Axis powers. Thus forming the 201st Mexican Fighter Squadron equipped with the P-47D and sent to fight in the Pacific
http://www.airartnw.com/images/aztec_adimage3.jpg

GoodKn1ght
01-03-2004, 07:01 PM
It only won the war because the american pilots knew about ctrl+F1 and the germans didnt.

Old_Canuck
01-03-2004, 07:09 PM
The war was not won by any machine or any device, it was won by people who refused to give in to what they saw as a dangerous threat to future generations. Some of those people flew Mustangs, some of them worked in factories and maintained the machinery in harms' way and some of them sent their sons and daughters.

I'm 54 years old now and the relatively peaceful life I've enjoyed so far in a relatively free country is because of all those brave people.

OC

"You don't stop playing because you grow old, you grow old because you stop playing."

Cajun76
01-03-2004, 07:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maple_Tiger:
I voted that it did not win the war. It was one of the best plane's in WW2 but it was not the best plane.

I also think that we could have still won the war even if we just used the P-47 until the end of the war.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I couldn't agree more Tiger. I think if the Mustang had either: not been invented, or not recieved an engine capable of high altitude, development of the P-47M and P-47N would have accellerated. Both these a/c were outstanding, especailly the P-47M. She was a hot ship!

Good hunting,
Cajun76

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
-Aristotle

Meanwhile, in the 20th century:

BOOM! Yeah, Alright you primitive screwheads, listen up. See this? This is my T-Bolt!! It's has 8 .50cals and 2000lbs+ worth of bombs and rockets. Republic's top of the line. You can find this in the Kick A$$ department. That's right, this sweet baby was made in Farmingdale, Long Island and Evansville, Indiana. Retails for about $82,997.95. It's got a turbo-supercharger, all metal control surfaces with blunt nosed ailerons, and a hair trigger. That's right, shop smart, shop Republic. YOU GOT THAT!? Now I swear, the next one of you primates, E-ven TOUCHES me..... - Anonymous http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Arm_slinger
01-03-2004, 07:16 PM
The war was won by a great combination of things, granted the P-51 was fairly important towards the end of the war, but it certainly isnt the only thing that won the war.

warweapon2
01-03-2004, 07:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GoodKn1ght:
It only won the war because the american pilots knew about ctrl+F1 and the germans didnt.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL, that is a good trait indeed.

dizeee
01-03-2004, 07:19 PM
if any single weapon sytem won the war , then it has to be the t34 tank.

adlabs6
01-03-2004, 07:36 PM
I want the poll edited to include:

+ Add the phrase "won the war" to the language filter.

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fordfan25
01-03-2004, 08:17 PM
no the men on the ground did. and no the russians would have lost.imagen if the germens had not been forced to devide thayr forces between the two and focused on just the eastern front. stalingrad would have fallen quickly.the russians just like the britts and amricans were not geard up for war. the germans were. thats the advantege to starting a war. just like the japs thay started off with three times the navy the u.s had pluse sunk our ships at pearl.of course we he-b!tch-man-slaped them all the way back to japan. lol

TX-Zen
01-03-2004, 09:26 PM
I've got to cast my vote for the Russians winning the war. I'm patriotic but not blind, any country that can suffer the loss of 25 million soldiers (give or take a few) and still keep going simply cannot be dismissed and to me that price outweighs the impact of a single plane.

The Allies played a critical role without doubt and not one of the USA's men and women died without purpose. I feel strongly that the Allies shortened the war by a number of years definately...but it was a forgone conlusion after 1942 and especially after 1943. Not a question of if the Soviets would have won, only a matter of when.

Don't be fooled by a few things you might have read here and there, there is a world of history written on the subject from many cultures and many viewpoints. One must keep an open mind about history...the truth of the matter is not found in one single perspective.

You must also understand strategy and logistics, it may sound contradictory but wars have very little to do with the specific equipment that we all read about it. No weapon system was so superior that it gave a decisive edge in battle, everything is a matter of degrees.

It is a combination of these individual degrees of superiority that ultimately create the decisive edge. No country had a technological advantage so extreme that their enemies could not defeat them and no country had a single weapon system that was decisive, all countries were within degrees of each other.

The Mustang did not win the war in my opinion, neither did the Americans. I say this as an American and with the ultimate respect to my country and those who fought for the US in those times. I was a soldier once too, I know what it feels like to be mixed up in the middle of it. I've studied military history since I was a kid, served in the armed forces and seen and done a lot of things that have led me to my viewpoint.

The best example I can give of who won the war is this: The Russians absorbed the brunt of the German war machine, they met the Germans headlong as they smashed into Russia. They bent, but didn't break and suffered horrendous losses diluting the German advances. In effect they locked with the Germans and held them tightly while the Allies built up sufficient force to finish it.

The Allies were the knockout punch if you will but the Soviets did the dirty work. They suffered the full force of Germany and survived.


There are a million IF's to the course of the war. IF germany hadn't lost the enigma cypher machine, IF they had developed the 262 earlier, IF they had more rockets to use on the bomber streams, IF they P51 wasn't deployed, IF the Germans hadn't spread themselves too thin etc etc etc.

But the fact is the Germans did make mistakes, as did all other countries. The fact is they were spread too thin and at the outset of the war the German military was fundamentally unsuited for the kind of war they launched on Russia. The opening stages of the war set the tone for the next 4 years, just as the success in the early years set the tone for the Battle of Britain and the invasion of Russia in 1941.
A pattern of momentum had built up and that momentum carried the Germans into a large scale war that most of the General Staff did not want to enter into.

I recommend to read some of the thoughts of the German General Staff prior to the Battle of Britain and read what they had to say. Read about what they thought of the invasion of Russia also. You may be surprised.

In my opinion, the Germans had one shot to knock out Russia in 1941. They almost did but since they failed, they began the inevitable slide into a war of attrition that they could not win. Without being pro German or endorsing the actions of their goverment at the time, it is a testament to the quality of their soldiers that they forced the war to drag on for 4 more years, at least from a military perspective. Both sides suffered terrible losses without changing the balance of power significantly, until after the battle of Kursk in 1943.


I have a considerable amount of sympathy for the losses suffered from all sides and great respect for the courage and determination of the armies that fought in the war, Axis and Allied as well. In this regard I am not speaking of what is right or wrong, I am speaking of what all sides endured during the conflict.


I know this is a game and we love the planes but it is still a game based on a real world event. To claim that one single thing won the war imho dishonors those who have fallen during that time and blurs the contributions of the many countries and people that fought.

Reddeath, understand that in no way am I slamming you personally. I just don't think it's a good idea to promote American-centric views on subjects that are infinately more complex than a specific airplane. Wars are not won by planes, tanks or ships, they are won by the troops employing them and the strategies of their leadership.


Respectfully,

TX-Zen
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SkyChimp
01-03-2004, 09:41 PM
Good post, TX-Zen. I agree.

As far as the Mustang goes, however. It was a superlative fighter with which the USAAF was able to project air superiority over the heart of Germany - at a time when no other fighter was available that could do it.

Regards,
SkyChimp
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TX-Zen
01-03-2004, 09:53 PM
I would be one of the last people to dismiss the Mustang believe me, it was an awesome fighter and I love it almost as much as the Dora (forgive me http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )

It's all a matter of perspective ofcourse. To the pilot in the seat the performance of his plane is by far the most important thing in the world, but to the guys in the headquarters 6000 miles away it is a factor to be considered as part of a large mathematical formula.

The Mustang did what is was designed to do and did it well in a time when nothing else could do it, there is no doubt about that.


Edit: You've made excellent comments about that very fact in other threads, something I have meant to commend you on. You did a good job keeping to the argument at hand as I recall, good work.


S!~

TX-Zen
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horseback
01-03-2004, 11:57 PM
It may not have won the war, but you have to admit it had great P.R.

Cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

Geshausen
01-04-2004, 12:36 AM
S!~ TX-Zen 100% true. If you ask me, Hitler himself is the main reason Germany lost. Completley out of his mind. Most of the What-if scenrios might have occured if Someone else was in charge. I too am very grateful to the Russian Soldier for the sacrifices he made. I think Lenin is the one who Said, "Quantity has a certain quaility".

Imperial Studmuffin

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AirBot
01-04-2004, 01:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RedDeth:
DID THE P-51 WIN THE WAR?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No! Quit asking!



And TX-Zen, I hereby nominate your post for the "Best Post of the Month" award! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Cajun76
01-04-2004, 05:39 AM
I'll second that motion and I move to have it carried. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Good hunting,
Cajun76

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
-Aristotle

Meanwhile, in the 20th century:

BOOM! Yeah, Alright you primitive screwheads, listen up. See this? This is my T-Bolt!! It's has 8 .50cals and 2000lbs+ worth of bombs and rockets. Republic's top of the line. You can find this in the Kick A$$ department. That's right, this sweet baby was made in Farmingdale, Long Island and Evansville, Indiana. Retails for about $82,997.95. It's got a turbo-supercharger, all metal control surfaces with blunt nosed ailerons, and a hair trigger. That's right, shop smart, shop Republic. YOU GOT THAT!? Now I swear, the next one of you primates, E-ven TOUCHES me..... - Anonymous http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

VMF513_Wolf
01-04-2004, 05:49 AM
allied won the war..didn´t u knew that?http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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SpinSpinSugar
01-04-2004, 06:30 AM
Well, someone's got to chip in with "well, the Mustang would never have had a European War to fight without the Spitfire and the Hurricane ergo they won the war; QED". And it may as well be me. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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Cheers,

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SeaFireLIV
01-04-2004, 06:38 AM
Come on, chaps, lets be honest. I`m tired of the `P51 won the war` stuff, yes it was crucial to helping win the war, but without the Hurri and Spit in BOB halting the Axis advance in the beginning, there would`ve been no P-51 in a war (except maybe fighting Japan).

Without England any attempt for the US to start a fight with Germany would`ve been extremely difficult. All they could do would be to support guerilla tactics and lend-lease more planes etc to the Russians and hope they survived.

I should also add that with the Axis dashing themselves upon Russia like a wave upon Rocks, they too were even more instrumental in wittling down the Germans even before the P51 came near.

The Spit and Hurri and I16s, Laggs pilots created the bottleneck that gave enough time for the US to join in...

(This is my last on this repetitive subject).

`Man is an embodied paradox, a bundle of contradictions.` Lacon.

Willey
01-04-2004, 09:35 AM
Of course the 51 did win the war http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. How could it have not, with those pretty cal .50s that can kill tiger tanks?? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Speco
01-04-2004, 09:49 AM
I must say the Russians. The facts are clearly in favor of this statment. Anyone who took the time to read up on ww2 or even beter study the numbers had to come to the same conclusion. Very nice post TX!

mcarruthers
01-04-2004, 10:06 AM
The p51 DID NOT WIN THE WAR. I dont mean to sound offensive or anything but your only saying it because your american. And us british say the spit won the war etc.

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JaguarMEX
01-04-2004, 10:45 AM
I agree with you 100% TX-Zen
good post

In May 1942, Nazi submarines sank two Mexican tankers, and Mexico declared war against the Axis powers. Thus forming the 201st Mexican Fighter Squadron equipped with the P-47D and sent to fight in the Pacific
http://www.airartnw.com/images/aztec_adimage3.jpg

Old_Canuck
01-04-2004, 12:08 PM
TX-Zen http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Excellent, unbiased post. Regarding your comments about the Russians bearing the brunt of German forces, I agree and I believe an objective student of WWII history would have to agree as well. Millions of brave Russians with their historical ally -- the Russian winter -- took the steam out of Germany's war plans.

It is ironic that Hitler launched Operation Barbarossa on June 22 which was only two days away from Napoleon's ill-fated attack on Russia on June 24, 1812. "Ironic," but it was not an accident.

Having decoded Hitler's "Barbarossa" invasion plans, Allied intelligence had sent the head of American intelligence Bill Donovan on a deception tour of the Balkans to deceive Hitler regarding an upcoming alliance with them and in Churchill's words to "upset Hitler's timetable." A well-calculated speech by Donovan following his "diplomacy tour" had inflamed Hitler to prematurely and impulsively attack Belgrade and had effectively dragged Germany into a running battle with Tito's Yugoslavians and also dragged Germany into a winter campaign where they were defeated by the resolute Russians and yet another Russian winter -- the likes of which had defeated Napolean more than one hundred years earlier.

Tito who was considered to be an agent trained by the British/U.S./Canadian intelligence group, effectively resisted and bled Germany's forces which (in Tito's estimation) delayed Hitler's Barbarossa timetable by 38 days.

From "A Man Called Intrepid" by William Stephenson:

"Tito later wrote: 'Hitler's Command was forced to postpone the attack on Russia by 38 days....Every ninth Yugoslav lost his life fighting the enemy in the aftermath.' This estimate of thirty-eight days falls modestly short of the U.S. and British intelligence estimates at the end of the war.

In The 'Goebbles Diaries' the Nazi Propoganda Minister unconsciously confirmed the success of Donovan's mission when he blamed the Balkans bloodbath on 'the notorious Colonel Donovan who later created the infamous OSS spy-ring. He brought disaster to Yugoslavia in order to pull other countries like Greece into the war. That was Donovan's mission. All was ready for the pacification of the Balkans with our troops when the secret Presidential agent came on the scene'" (pp 233-34).

Even this is but a part of the bigger picture.

So it was NOT the P-51 or any other machine or device that won the war. As TX-Zen stated, "...the truth of the matter is not found in one single perspective."

OC

"You don't stop playing because you grow old, you grow old because you stop playing."

TX-Bomblast
01-04-2004, 12:16 PM
yea ....what Zen said.

TX-Bomblast
Red2

Udidtoo
01-04-2004, 01:03 PM
Tx-zen, if you continue to post articulate, intelligent and unbiased such as this then you are going to disillusion those here who love to stomp with both feet on anything with even a hint of the U.S. to it...................................well done!


..............................
I always have just enough fuel to arrive at the scene of my crash.

GoodKn1ght
01-04-2004, 01:16 PM
ok to clear it up for all of you, here is the final verdict from me-

the p51 participated on the winning side of the war. It was a lucky plane because it was "in the right place at the right time." it wasnt necesarrily a good plane.

the end.

Old_Canuck
01-04-2004, 01:22 PM
==============================================
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GoodKn1ght:
ok to clear it up for all of you, here is the final verdict from me-

the p51 participated on the winning side of the war. It was a lucky plane because it was "in the right place at the right time." it wasnt necesarrily a good plane.

the end.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
==========================================

I agree with your comments except the last one which I suspect was a joke. The P-51 was great plane.

OC

"You don't stop playing because you grow old, you grow old because you stop playing."

Gato_M5
01-04-2004, 01:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GoodKn1ght:
ok to clear it up for all of you, here is the final verdict from me-

the p51 participated on the winning side of the war. It was a lucky plane because it was "in the right place at the right time." it wasnt necesarrily a good plane.

the end.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So it was not a good plane... Then there are around 1.000.000 (excuseme if I fell short with that number) guys wrong. Anyway you could be right, perhaps it was not necesarily a good a/c http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

karost
01-04-2004, 01:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Originally posted by GoodKn1ght:
the p51 participated on the winning side of the war. It was a lucky plane because it was "in the right place at the right time." it wasnt necesarrily a good plane.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree that

maxim26
01-04-2004, 02:07 PM
I enjoy reading your posts, guys. I can tell that people here not only read about history of ww2 bu also think and make their own conclusions.

I'm convinced that victory was achieved with the efforts of all nations wich resisted fascism. The people of Soviet Union contributed the most. And it is not because they cared more. It just happend because of historical, geographical conditions.

As a result of Cald War both nations and russians and americans were brainwashed. As a result average american belives that "mustang wan the wor". And it was very painful for me to see how huge effort and secerifies of my people were forgotten on the west.

And i'n really pleased to see that actually its not true.

RedDeth
01-04-2004, 02:36 PM
well folks ill just go with the poll results. seems like the majority wins

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HellToupee
01-04-2004, 02:56 PM
i have a feeling those choices were in a differnt order

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MiloMorai
01-04-2004, 05:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by maxim26:
The people of Soviet Union contributed the most. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A super tanker full of liquid pig manure.

conundrumx
01-04-2004, 05:53 PM
P51...still kickin' butt after all these years http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Hot_Space2
01-04-2004, 06:32 PM
The P-51 won the war......yeh, right!!!!

Hot Space

Sticky the Stick Insect got stuck on a Sticky Bun....

crazyivan1970
01-04-2004, 06:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fordfan25:
no the men on the ground did. and no the russians would have lost.imagen if the germens had not been forced to devide thayr forces between the two and focused on just the eastern front. stalingrad would have fallen quickly.the russians just like the britts and amricans were not geard up for war. the germans were. thats the advantege to starting a war. just like the japs thay started off with three times the navy the u.s had pluse sunk our ships at pearl.of course we he-b!tch-man-slaped them all the way back to japan. lol<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

V!
Regards,

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

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Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

maxim26
01-04-2004, 07:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MiloMorai:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by maxim26:
The people of Soviet Union contributed the most. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A super tanker full of liquid pig manure.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Excellent argument, man. You've allway been good debater.

TX-Zen
01-04-2004, 10:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Udidtoo:
Tx-zen, if you continue to post articulate, intelligent and unbiased such as this then you are going to disillusion those here who love to stomp with both feet on anything with even a hint of the U.S. to it...................................well done!


..............................
I always have just enough fuel to arrive at the scene of my crash.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


LOL, I humbly apologize!
(I'm just a Dora jock trying to make a living http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )



Canuck, I do recall reading about the events that you described (perhaps it was 'Rise and Fall of the 3rd Reich' by William Shirer?), though these days my memory is growing hazy. Thanks for the refresher and for expanding upon it. The intricacies of the political scene at the time are deep, subtle and still echo to this day. I have always found the period of 1937 to 1941 to be something that I am always discovering new things about, though I don't read about it as often as I used to.

Great post, very informative and it's nice to see that there are others who have read extensively on the subject, not just about the planes but about the political side as well. The stage was set long before the shooting started and that stage determined the outcome...only the timing was an issue in my opinion.

It is always wise to read extensively about history...in many ways I feel it is a persons obligation to do so, regardless of nationality, race, creed or political views. There are many things in the world that I do not like nor do I agree with, but to be ignorant of the truth (or at least the probable, logical truth based on the information out there) because of national sentiment, to me is a terrible thing. It is also something which is easily avoided if given a bit of effort but it still amazes me how little the majority of people know about history. As a wise scholar once said, those who do not understand history are doomed to repeat it.

What we need these days, especially in light of current events, is a little less flag waving and a little more critical thought. Considering that the US is technically the richest and most powerful country in the world, it might be easy to think the world revolves around us. It doesn't and it didn't then either. That being said, there is nothing wrong with being patriotic, I am very much so and in many ways proud that I am born here, but you must take care not to let pride blind you to history.
Yes the Mustang did play a critical role in the war but it was a combined effort of millions...millions.

Appreciate what all poeple contributed, appreciate the Mustang for what it was and what it did, not just what it symbolizes. The symbol stands for the combined effort of all involved but the symbol alone didn't carry the day.

Keep the open mind...you can learn a lot from the many people in the world and learn a lot from the many people that visit this forum from all over the world.


I know I have and for that I give a Salute to the community. We've got some great people here and I'm proud to be able to speak my mind openly without fear and to learn from others viewpoints.

&lt;S!&gt;

TX-Zen
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Korolov
01-04-2004, 11:32 PM
I'd have to say the russians. They contributed the most to allied victory, especially in terms of ground forces.

However, I do think their leaders needlessly wasted tons of lives with their mistakes.

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Old_Canuck
01-04-2004, 11:58 PM
Salute TX-Zen,

It was a good discussion but maybe some of us got a little too serious in a forum dedicated to such a fun combat simulator.

=======================================

"Dwell on the past and you'll lose an eye; forget the past and you'll lose both eyes." --Old Russian Proverb

OC

"You don't stop playing because you grow old, you grow old because you stop playing."

MiloMorai
01-05-2004, 06:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by maxim26:

Excellent argument, man. You've allway been good debater.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup just as blunt as your statement oh waver of the red cloth.

arzaal
01-05-2004, 07:36 AM
The answer is quite simple really: the allies won the war, and the axis lost it. No plane involved.
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

SpinSpinSugar
01-05-2004, 09:01 AM
Actually there were thousands and thousands of planes involved. And quite a few tanks. And some boats. And lots of men with guns and pointy sticks. So I hear.

I'll get me coat. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Cheers,

SSS

TX-Zen
01-05-2004, 12:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Old_Canuck:
Salute TX-Zen,

It was a good discussion but maybe some of us got a little too serious in a forum dedicated to such a fun combat simulator.

=======================================

"Dwell on the past and you'll lose an eye; forget the past and you'll lose both eyes." --Old Russian Proverb

OC

"You don't stop playing because you grow old, you grow old because you stop playing."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Doh, I guess that would be me getting too serious http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Sorry, I am a little passionate about some things and education is one of them, didn't mean to get carried away.

S!!

TX-Zen
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Old_Canuck
01-05-2004, 01:12 PM
Not you TX-Zen,

Thinking that I myself was getting too serious. Could have something to do with having to go back to work today after a month off http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

OC

"You don't stop playing because you grow old, you grow old because you stop playing."

BM357_Raven
01-05-2004, 01:38 PM
The correct answer is:

The war was destined to be lost by the Germans because if you trace the 3rd phase of the moon in the month of April 1176 AD, you will see that there were strong ties to Mars and Mercury emitting a spectra-aura of un pronounced magnitude and could only mean one thing; certain victory for the Allies in 1945..

Next question....?

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Bogun
01-05-2004, 01:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TX-Zen:
...I've got to cast my vote for the Russians winning the war. I'm patriotic but not blind, any country that can suffer the loss of 25 million soldiers (give or take a few) and still keep going simply cannot be dismissed ...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you for your post TX-Zen,
Just little correction - Soviet Union's irreversible losses were a little less then 11.5 millions of the military personnel. The rest 15.5 millions - were civilian population.

Regards,

AKA_Bogun
http://www.akawardogs.com/

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CARBONFREEZE
01-05-2004, 02:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by x__CRASH__x:
Where is the option that insults RedDeth for starting this poll? I want it edited immediately to include such an option.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.ghostskies.com/<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I second that motion!

Russian aircraft require skill to fly.
German aircraft require ten times that skill, and one hundred times the patience!

WUAF_CO_CRBNFRZ on HyperLobby

RedDeth
01-05-2004, 05:17 PM
QUACK !

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horseback
01-05-2004, 10:52 PM
When we talk about who contributed most to the Allied victory, there are several ways to measure the contribution.

Backbone: I give the nod to the English, because they were in what appears to me to be way deeper sh!t right after Dunkirk than the Russians ever were, without the option of defense in depth. When you consider that they gave up their Empire and cultural primacy in the Western World to defeat Hitler, I think they were easily the most committed. They also made huge contributions in the science and technology department- the magnetron alone would win them that category, and they did so much more. I consider Churchill to be the greatest man of the twentieth century.

Bodies: The Soviets win this one hands down. No body else lost this many people, even if we discount the losses due to sheer stupidity, and stayed in the fight. While the Chinese took similar losses if we include civilians, Chiang was too busy hording Lend Lease weapons for the fight with the Communists to make any commitment to fighting the Japanese.

Logistics: Okay, now it's time for us to give America some credit. The USA provided gasoline, food, clothing, and machines for transport as well as weapons to every allied power. Every Allied army rode to battle on American trucks and transport planes. America's Navy built and operated the greatest fleets the world has ever seen to help win the Battle of the Atlantic and choke the Japanese Empire in submission. American Generals and Admirals provided the leadership and direction needed by the Western Allies, without which the Russians would have had to 'free' Europe. After the war, America provided the push to put Europe and Japan back on their feet economically. And in exchange for all these things, they only asked that we give all the credit to the Mustang.

Ingrates!

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

TX-Zen
01-05-2004, 11:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by horseback:
And in exchange for all these things, they only asked that we give all the credit to the Mustang.

Ingrates!

horseback
1944<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

lol
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WhiskeyRiver
01-06-2004, 12:28 AM
You all forgot the M1 Garand. It is one of the 3 greatest weapons ever devised.

To kill me you've got to hit the heart Ramon--Clint F*cking Eastwood

maxim26
01-06-2004, 12:34 AM
Backbone: I give the nod to the English, because they were in what appears to me to be way deeper sh!t right after Dunkirk than the Russians ever were, without the option of defense in depth. When you consider that they gave up their Empire and cultural primacy in the Western World to defeat Hitler, I think they were easily the most committed. They also made huge contributions in the science and technology department- the magnetron alone would win them that category, and they did so much more. I consider Churchill to be the greatest man of the twentieth century.


I have to disagree with you about English. At the firs place, English government made huge mistake giving promises to Polish to protect them in case of German invasion. As a result Polish didn't want to negotiate the problem of Polish coridor. This is beginning. Then was Battle of France... Though battle was lost because of poor Franch commanding. English went back to Island. Next. Battle of Englend, which was actualy just air war. But wars are not won in the air they are won on the ground and Germans didnt have means to cross the channel. This victory was followd by some losses in Asia against Japan and some victories in Africa. That's it. English troops didnt play crucial role in Europe. When second fron was opened americans were in charge in the France. Russians whole war were fighting with 3/4 of German troops. Land lease - Americans again. One more thing, Atlantics, English did good in Atlantics agains German submarines.

So I woud rank counties as follows: first -Russians, at least because they took the main German strike and won, Second - Americans for supplying weapons and food to English and Russians and their contribution on Pacific and France. Third - English for not giving up as Franch did and providing transport and protecting for land lease program.

Fehler
01-06-2004, 05:59 AM
OK, OK... I can share this very valid point with all of you.

My Uncle actually won the war. Just ask him... Oh, and you are sure to never catch a fish bigger than his as well...

My other Uncle once (Secretly) told me that he was really a cook in WWII.

No, actually, I had one Uncle that was a POW in the Philippines (Bataan). He later escaped and fought with the Filipino Freedom fighters until the U.S. returned. My "Tall Tale" spinning Uncle was in artillery in Europe. I never really bothered to ask him a lot of questions about the war because he is most noted for his embelishment in certain areas. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/9JG54.html

horseback
01-06-2004, 09:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by maxim26:

I have to disagree with you about English. At the firs place, English government made huge mistake giving promises to Polish to protect them in case of German invasion. As a result Polish didn't want to negotiate the problem of Polish coridor. This is beginning. Then was Battle of France... Though battle was lost because of poor Franch commanding. English went back to Island. Next. Battle of Englend, which was actualy just air war. But wars are not won in the air they are won on the ground and Germans didnt have means to cross the channel. This victory was followd by some losses in Asia against Japan and some victories in Africa. That's it. English troops didnt play crucial role in Europe. When second fron was opened americans were in charge in the France. Russians whole war were fighting with 3/4 of German troops. Land lease - Americans again. One more thing, Atlantics, English did good in Atlantics agains German submarines.

So I woud rank counties as follows: first -Russians, at least because they took the main German strike and won, Second - Americans for supplying weapons and food to English and Russians and their contribution on Pacific and France. Third - English for not giving up as Franch did and providing transport and protecting for land lease program.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Max, let me defend my choices here. First of all, I don't rank anybody. It's futile, and only causes hurt feelings. I gave the Brits points for their guts and heart, not their good sense. With the exception of the RAF, their professional military killed as many young Englishmen as the Germans through sheer ineptitude and bloodymindedness. That was why the American generals and admirals barely hid their contempt for them and insisted on taking the military lead in the West and Far East. Mountbatten's command of the CBI was a facesaving gesture in a backwater theater.

Certainly, their conduct of diplomacy in the prewar years was indefensible, but Churchill did a great deal to make up for it in developing a first rate intelligence apparatus, and making the most of the technology English science provided, both of which were absolutely necessary for winning the war. British propaganda was extremely effective in giving the people of Europe hope, and it generally proved to bear fruit, at least for western Europe.

As for the Battle of Britain, without command of the air, the Home Fleet would have been decimated trying to stop German boats crossing the Channel. That is a very narrow strip of ocean, and fleets need room to maneuver. Surface and submarine units of the German Navy, such as they were, would have been enough to screen the invasion, especially with the LW raining bombs and torpedos on the Home Fleet once Fighter Command were eliminated.

It was demonstrated conclusively in the Pacific how naked surface warships are to air attack, particularly early on (Prince of Wales, for instance). Remember, once the Wehrmacht got a few units on the beach, there wasn't much that could stop them, as the British were painfully aware. That's why I gave them props. They made mistakes, but instead of folding, they sucked it up and were prepared to die on their feet rather than live on their knees.

As it was, the British lost a lot of sons in combat, far more than the US, and it is a small country. The proportional loss was huge, particularly when you consider that many of their best and brightest were lost in even greater proportion. Coupled with the losses from the First World War less than a generation before, it hurts them to this day.

If they screwed up in the between wars period, it was because they were in the same state of denial as the rest of western civilization, but they, more than any other nation, did their best to make up for those mistakes. That's why I said they showed the most backbone.

It's possible that your country had a less than successful conclusion to the war, but I would suggest to you that most of the alternatives would have been far uglier. Had Hitler taken the time to really prepare for the war, or Chamberlain sued for peace or never declared war, America might have only bothered with the Pacific war, or the war might have lasted well into the fifties, killing our parents and keeping us from being here to toss these ideas around in a civil manner.

I don't see a lot of happier alternatives without EVERY major player in Europe and America acting responsibly in the 1920s. I can't really imagine that ever happening. Can you?

Cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

TX-Zen
01-06-2004, 09:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by horseback:


I have to disagree with you about English. At the firs place, English government made huge mistake giving promises to Polish to protect them in case of German invasion. As a result Polish didn't want to negotiate the problem of Polish coridor. This is beginning. Then was Battle of France... Though battle was lost because of poor Franch commanding. English went back to Island. Next. Battle of Englend, which was actualy just air war. But wars are not won in the air they are won on the ground and Germans didnt have means to cross the channel. This victory was followd by some losses in Asia against Japan and some victories in Africa. That's it. English troops didnt play crucial role in Europe. When second fron was opened americans were in charge in the France. Russians whole war were fighting with 3/4 of German troops. Land lease - Americans again. One more thing, Atlantics, English did good in Atlantics agains German submarines.

So I woud rank counties as follows: first -Russians, at least because they took the main German strike and won, Second - Americans for supplying weapons and food to English and Russians and their contribution on Pacific and France. Third - English for not giving up as Franch did and providing transport and protecting for land lease program.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Max, let me defend my choices here. First of all, I don't rank anybody. It's futile, and only causes hurt feelings. I gave the Brits points for their guts and heart, not their good sense. With the exception of the RAF, their professional military killed as many young Englishmen as the Germans through sheer ineptitude and bloodymindedness. That was why the American generals and admirals barely hid their contempt for them and insisted on taking the military lead in the West and Far East. Mountbatten's command of the CBI was a facesaving gesture in a backwater theater.

Certainly, their conduct of diplomacy in the prewar years was indefensible, but Churchill did a great deal to make up for it in developing a first rate intelligence apparatus, and making the most of the technology English science provided, both of which were absolutely necessary for winning the war. British propaganda was extremely effective in giving the people of Europe hope, and it generally proved to bear fruit, at least for western Europe.

As for the Battle of Britain, without command of the air, the Home Fleet would have been decimated trying to stop German boats crossing the Channel. That is a very narrow strip of ocean, and fleets need room to maneuver. Surface and submarine units of the German Navy, such as they were, would have been enough to screen the invasion, especially with the LW raining bombs and torpedos on the Home Fleet once Fighter Command were eliminated.

It was demonstrated conclusively in the Pacific how naked surface warships are to air attack, particularly early on (Prince of Wales, for instance). Remember, once the Wehrmacht got a few units on the beach, there wasn't much that could stop them, as the British were painfully aware. That's why I gave them props. They made mistakes, but instead of folding, they sucked it up and were prepared to die on their feet rather than live on their knees.

As it was, the British lost a lot of sons in combat, far more than the US, and it is a small country. The proportional loss was huge, particularly when you consider that many of their best and brightest were lost in even greater proportion. Coupled with the losses from the First World War less than a generation before, it hurts them to this day.

If they screwed up in the between wars period, it was because they were in the same state of denial as the rest of western civilization, but they, more than any other nation, did their best to make up for those mistakes. That's why I said they showed the most backbone.

It's possible that your country had a less than successful conclusion to the war, but I would suggest to you that most of the alternatives would have been far uglier. Had Hitler taken the time to really prepare for the war, or Chamberlain sued for peace or never declared war, America might have only bothered with the Pacific war, or the war might have lasted well into the fifties, killing our parents and keeping us from being here to toss these ideas around in a civil manner.

I don't see a lot of happier alternatives without EVERY major player in Europe and America acting responsibly in the 1920s. I can't really imagine that ever happening. Can you?

Cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944[/QUOTE]


Very nice Horse, very well written. I'm at work and don't have time to elaborate at all, but I did want to give you a thumbs up for this post, in particular your writing style. Very clear and to the point.

S!

TX-Zen
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jay_barndoor
01-06-2004, 10:43 AM
What a daft question to ask in a poll.