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View Full Version : The Swaztica - Yay or Nay



Kapitan_Nereus
05-06-2004, 08:45 AM

Kapitan_Nereus
05-06-2004, 08:45 AM

ParaB
05-06-2004, 08:54 AM
Already answered this in another thread.

Since in several european countries laws forbid the swastika and other nazi symbols in computer games and UBISOFT is a french company we won't see them. Period.

I can live without them.

SOF_Timber
05-06-2004, 09:16 AM
Give us the option to install the Hakenkreuz or not with the game. No option...than have the Swastika in. If not I'm sure it will be the first "mod" for the game anyway just like in Silent Hunter 2.

jagtigermk2
05-06-2004, 09:39 AM
I know it may be hard for it to be added as in germany it is banned. But even if it is left out someone could make a relistic patch which changes the flags.

HeibgesU999
05-06-2004, 10:40 AM
i would say the odds are just about ZERO, of the swastika being released with this game. if you were killing nazi's it would be a different thing. but in a game where you are playing the Germans, no way Ubi will put the swastika in the game.

ParaB
05-06-2004, 10:41 AM
To be correct, the swastika is not "banned" here in Germany. You can see it in books, movies, in documentaries, exhibitions etc. as long as it is used within the historical context and is not used to glorify the nazi regime.

Unfortunately since computer games are considered "toys" the inclusion of the swastika (and other symbols, like SS-runes, etc.) is forbidden. Iron crosses are no problem though.

If SHIII would include swastikas it would risk getting banned, like other games before (Return to Castle Wolfenstein for example).

I don't know the exact laws in France but IIRC swastikas in games are a big no-no, too.

Egan2.0
05-06-2004, 11:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ParaB:
Already answered this in another thread.

Since in several european countries laws forbid the swastika and other nazi symbols in computer games and UBISOFT is a french company we won't see them. Period.

I can live without them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought it was just Germany, I didn't realise that other countries had the sames regulations.

I don't think it matters - If the game is skinable at all i'm sure we'll see swastikas soon enough.

jagtigermk2
05-06-2004, 11:36 AM
I'm a return to castle wolfenstein and enemy territory fan, i heard that someone in Germany was nicked for having an American copy of rtcw.

Weldinger
05-06-2004, 12:46 PM
That Swastikas and other Nazi symbols are banned in certain media here in Germany is not an idea of the German law. It is still a valid law for the germans that comes from the allied control council(USA, UK, UDSSR) after WWII.

SailorSteve
05-06-2004, 02:38 PM
It doesn't bother me a bit; in fact I like to see markings be historically accurate. That said, I think for the purpose of selling the game in Europe (possibly THE major market) it should be left out. Adding it later as a mod should be no problem. It was done for the flags and the medals in SHII.

______________________________
Always keep you clothes and your weapons where you can find them in the dark.

Kriegsmarine41
05-06-2004, 04:39 PM
Well I think the Bismarck would look better with an Iron Cross on her deck instead of just the big white circle we see in the picture. The only reason I can think of that they even included that part of the camo would be to make it eaiser for moders. Of course they could just put a happy face there http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Shan_Hackett
05-06-2004, 08:36 PM
The Nazi regime is dead, and as far as the symbols associated with it, ppl need to re-remember that the "Nazis'" didnt invent thier symbology.

I'm not a medieval historian, so my knowledge is limited, w/out researching it, but i know the "Hakenkreuz" is thought to wade off evil, and /or charms that em-body/power prosperioty/fertility.

The Nazi regime took and used these symbols, and others for thier enderment, now ppl should reconize the symbols for what they were originaly invented for.

As far as including the "Hakenkreuz" into the game. As folks have already mentioned, it would kill sales, through manditory banning, and would open Ubi to political suicide.
Sure include a mod or "Unoffical" patch that activates it...Look at Ubi- 1C Companys' "IL2 Sturmovik". while the sim ships with absolutely no reference to Hakenkreuz's or Nazis what so ever. They have embedded textures to show the Hakenkreuz on the aircraft skins. Which only needs someone with code knowledge to unlock. and thier r several external running programs for IL2 that activate said feature, among others, which the average player cant not access.

natty-dreadlock
05-06-2004, 08:38 PM
hmm maybe they should give us an option for symbols that will replace the swastika. As mentiones, a smiley face, a lighting bolt, a reversed swastika, etc.

ingsoc41
05-07-2004, 04:38 AM
The swastika should not be "banned" from this or any other historically accurate game...YES...there should be an option to remove it for thos politically correct and ultra sensitive people who would like to rewrite history..but its part of history....accept it and move on...
"Its a beautiful thing the destruction of words"
George Orwell...1984

paxhispanica
05-07-2004, 06:05 AM
I agree with ingsoc41 . Today , there a lot of people that hate the US flag and i dont speak only of muslims or Arabs ,there are many europeans that hate it , and due to nobody have banned it . The Svastika , Hakenkreuz , etc .... , its a part of the history and if the Kriegsmarine wore this emblem , then it must be.

I hate any totalitarianism , fascist or commnunist regime , but HISTORY is HISTORY

ParaB
05-07-2004, 07:39 AM
Ingsoc41 and paxhispanica, you're missing the point.

The banning of the swastika and other nazi symbols in computer games here in Germany has nothing to do with rewriting history or political correctness.

ingsoc41
05-07-2004, 07:59 AM
Para.having lived and studied two years in Austria I understand your point....Im just not trying to imagine every european is trying to rewrite history......I understand AND appreciate the sensitivity in germany to this hated emblem....I would justlike to have it on the American version...having just returned from a month in Russia where I have a apartment and live part time in St Petersburg... I can tell you there is a palpable "anti american" sentiment..as well as a general "appeasement" among the europeans quite similar to Neville chamberline and his "return with peace in our times"...Russian news runs ONLY anti american reports and reports that are totally slanted away from anything positive about America....they think we went overboard on 9/11..but then had four planes hit the kremlin..duma...petersburg..and so on..there response would havebeen overwhelming..they generally belive we are all just blowing this thing out of proportion.....I totally agree with Pax..the reason many europeans HATE Bush is he is the first president in MANY years with a set of balls and knows how to use them...many europeans prefer a passive US president....having spent MUCH time throughout europe..these are not just the thoughts of an idol few.....but....Im getting off point...I want the Swastika on the american version...

ingsoc41
05-07-2004, 08:05 AM
Didnt know UBI was a french company..I generally STAY away from buying ANYTHING french....but in my new apartment in Petersburg...i couldn't help but buy a french toilet...Dalafont.....think about it for a moment..and you will get the point..the french also 61% believe we are blowing this 911 out of proportion...but then...the last time the french sucessfully fought a campaign was right outside Moscow...and look what happened there..
The french as we all know have been saved by the Americans in THREE wars...WWI.WWII..and the cold war...they want to protect their beloved Paris at any cost.and in my opinion will drop thier rifles if the shooting ever started..but then french have their large muslim population who now try to dictate policy...gotta love it...
I remember the remark from the Movie we were soldiers once and young
"Frency Army...what that?"........sorry...but the french piss me off...

ParaB
05-07-2004, 08:42 AM
Ingsoc41, I do not think bringing politics into this forum is a good idea. The french-bashing in your posts is on the same low level as the stupid US-bashing you criticize...

Killer1939
05-07-2004, 10:23 AM
It is my understanding that the Swaztica's on the deck of the Bismarck were painted over with grey paint once at sea. They were only shown while in harbour so that German aircraft could easly identify their own ship. So they shouldn't be visible.

ParaB
05-07-2004, 10:31 AM
Indeed.

From the Kriegstagebuch of the Bismarck, 22.05.1941.

"Alarm ended. Following the order of Fleet the aircraft identification insignias on the turrets and the national emblems [swastikas] on the stern deck and breastworks painted over. "

CDragon
05-07-2004, 10:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ParaB:
Indeed.

From the _Kriegstagebuch_ of the Bismarck, 22.05.1941.

_"Alarm ended. Following the order of Fleet the aircraft identification insignias on the turrets and the national emblems [swastikas] on the stern deck and breastworks painted over. "_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry to nitpick, but I couldn't resist: didn't the Bismarck's Kriegstagebuch go down with it? Wasn't a uboat tasked with retrieving it before the Bismarck was caught, but didn't make it in time?

As for the swastika controversy, and with all due respect to everyone involved, and with a fair understanding of the politics and emotions involved, I must say this...

Whatever. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

UBI does what it thinks it needs to do. You do what you think is right. As long as UBI allows us to modify the skins, then its all right with me.

ParaB
05-07-2004, 11:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CDragon:

Sorry to nitpick, but I couldn't resist: didn't the _Bismarck's_ Kriegstagebuch go down with it? Wasn't a uboat tasked with retrieving it before the _Bismarck_ was caught, but didn't make it in time?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, I should've mentioned it:

"Reconstructed according to:
1.) War Diary of Naval Group Command North starting on 14 May 1941, 1836 hours.
2.) War Diary of Cruiser "Prinz Eugen" starting on 18 May 1941, 1000 hours.
3.) Telex and radio messages of Group North.
4.) Supreme Command of the Navy [O.K.M.] order MI Pc B.Nr. 9378 III v. 28 July 1941."

Source:

http://www.kbismarck.com/archives/bwardiary.html

radsov
05-07-2004, 11:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Killer1939:
It is my understanding that the Swaztica's on the deck of the Bismarck were painted over with grey paint once at sea. They were only shown while in harbour so that German aircraft could easly identify their own ship. So they shouldn't be visible.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't know if the painting over is true or not but I do know that the Bismarck had hers painted when she went down to the British fleet shortly after the Hood episode.

I saw it on one of Robert Ballards (perhaps spelt incorrectly) expedition programmes. It cleary showed the swaztika on the deck.

xwhitemousex
05-07-2004, 12:16 PM
The swastika...

The Swastika had no "bad reputation" until after it was used by the Nazi Regime.

You can find details on the Swastika as a good luck symbol here (http://www.luckymojo.com/swastika.html)

As for my part anyhow, I dont see the Swastika as a symbol to glorify the Nazi regime or ideology when used in books, games and so forth.

I'm pretty sure that if we switched the markings / symbols used during the war, and let the Allies use the Swastika and the axis using the british circular emblem found on british aircraft, then I'm very sure that symbol would have been banned and frowned upon instead hehe.

Its all about how we are brought up and thaught that Swastika = bad, without any explanation as to what it really means.

Cant really change public opinions and ideas though, but just a little info ")

Here (http://www.luckymojo.com/swastika.html)

oesten
05-07-2004, 06:22 PM
I think Ballard could see the swastikas on the sunken Bismarck because the grey paint that was hastily painted over them at sea had eroded away over the years, exposing the original swastikas underneath.

Don't think she had them showing when she went down.

ingsoc41
05-07-2004, 07:53 PM
Para..I agree with you....this is not the time or place for "country bashing"...my apologies...its a gaming forum and should stay that way ..

ParaB
05-07-2004, 08:36 PM
Ingsoc41, no apologies needed.

It takes a good man to admit a mistake.

Cheers,

Para

Access_granted
05-08-2004, 12:33 AM
I don't think it's a good idea to have swatika. I would be very ashamed and embarassed, if someone come in my room when I'm playing, and see a swatika on my screen...
Here (France), this symbol is not considered as a national flag, but it is actually a political flag.
And it is still in use for some people who want the return of jewish/tzigan/homosexuals/handicaped extermination, and totalitarian regime.
During the last month, 3 cimeteries where profaned in the East of the country, by writtting swatikas on all the graves, and especially the jewish graves.

This is why, this is not only an historical symbol, but something we have to fight against, still today.

PS: we admire the americans, and everybody in this country is gratefull for America to come and save us, several time. (For America in a general way, but also in a individual way, for the single young boy who lives happily in his little town in America, with his friends and girlfriend, and came a long way to this far country and die on our beaches, in a war that append thousand of kilometers of his home).
Also, personnaly, I desagree whith the President GW Bush, on many points, but this is a different story.

Access_granted
05-08-2004, 01:30 AM
And, by the way, I desagree with President J. Chirac on many points too ...

radsov
05-08-2004, 02:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oesten:
I think Ballard could see the swastikas on the sunken Bismarck because the grey paint that was hastily painted over them at sea had eroded away over the years, exposing the original swastikas underneath.

Don't think she had them showing when she went down.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sounds good, did I miss that in the programme ? probably http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif That Swaztica paint must have been very good stuff ! If I rememeber it seemed very clear on the pictures. I'd guess it was a very quick paint over with perhaps possibly paint that would be easily removed to save them time repainting the symbol later when the ship would be on show, so to speak.

Thanks for clearing that up. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

jagtigermk2
05-08-2004, 06:25 AM
quote:ingsoc41
-----------------------------------------------
Didnt know UBI was a french company..I generally STAY away from buying ANYTHING french
-----------------------------------------------

I'm English and i drive a French car, now that is weird. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Shan_Hackett
05-08-2004, 08:35 AM
Im not country bashing here, and i normaly dont get involved, but its driving me nuts, i just have to speak out a little here.

Just at what point, did the Americans, "Save" the French people!?
It was the British who sent in 400,000 troops, with 40,000 vehicles, with some 60,000 asorted artillary and guns. Not to mention the bulk of the R.A.F,(Totalling some 35 squadrons, at that time.) as part of the BEF -British Expeditionary Force, dispatched to aid the French from January of 1940.
(The BEF constituted some 70% of Britains enitre fighting force.)
By 28th May 1940, the Belgians capitulated, and the Belgian army ceased to exist.
Forcing, what remained of the BEF -I corps, and III Corps, along with one French division, to hold a 9 mile perimeter at Dunkirk.
(338,226 troops of the BEF reached Dunkirk, for the evacuation, but a little over 250,000, with over 100,000 french troops escaped.)
After the retreat of the BEF, the French were again left to defend thier homeland, alone and while on 14th June 1940, the Germans occupied Paris, and declared it an, "Open City", French troops continued to fight, right upto 20th June, when on the 21st June a french delegation headed by General Huntziger was lead into the very railway carrage at Compiegne in which the 1918 Armistice had been signed by the Germans.
By 7 P.M of the 22nd, the Armisitice was signed, the limits of German occupation agreed, and the capitulation and occupation of France began.

Brigadier Charles de Gaulle, months earlier claimed assylum in Britain, and when France capitulated, declaired himself as leader of the French people, and setup a "government in exile" co-ordinating resistance efforts via French and British agents still in France.

The Americans, like in 1915, were reluctant to become involved in a European conflict, even after the sinking of "SS Lusitania" on 7th May 1915. Of out of 1,198 death, 128 were American. Only entering WW1 on 6th April 1917. An almost repeat incident on 3rd September 1939, just after 7:30P.M. When the "SS Athenia" was attacked and sunk. Of the 118 deaths, 28 were again Americans. this also seemed to go undertered by the American people, and the government.

Under the 1933 trade act, America was only abliged to supply raw materials, to countries engaged in armed conflicts, and then the nation(s) in question had to provide shipping, to transport said goods.
Right upto December 1941, when japan attacked Pearl Harbour, effectively declaring war on America, the United States still continued to only supply raw materials, and almost solely to Britian. No efforts were made to aid, even with raw materials, to France before its capitulation. Although a vain attempt was made to reaquip the french airforce with the new Curtiss P40 - previously America supplied a limited amount of H-75 Hawks, in 1936. but France had already capitulated by then, and the consignment was picked up by the British, to be used in North Africa.

On 8th March 1941 the U.S. Senate passes the "Lend-Lease" bill, after Germany declares war on America.
12th March President Roosevelt asks Senate for Lean-Lease appropriation of $7,000,000,000. Now, priminister Sir Winston Churchill, calls it;
" A new Magna Carta".
By which time, Britain had already fended off an air assualt over it's homeland, been pushed out of China by the japanese, and the 8th Army engaged in bitter fighting in North Africa, against Rommels famed "Africa Corps".
Shippment of "war Materials" from the Americas, didnt start until january 1942, and America didnt instigate escorted merchant shipping until Ocotober of the same year, with Britain having NCS Officers co-ordinating merchant shipping from the United States upto that point, having Canadian warships escort convoys.

While the attention of the American people were fixated on the attack in Hawaii.
little attention was paid to the continuing conflict raging in Europe, now Russia being brought into the fray, with the German invasion on 22nd June 1941.
War materials, of weapons, munitions, with a limited supply of vehicles and aircraft, starting to gradually pick up momemtum. Shipments, again almost exclusively to Britain, Britain then intern, supplying it's Common Wealth allies with the bulk of what the British had "Paid" America for, in terms of "War Materials".

Americas intervention into the European campaign didnt start until 8th November 1942, when "Operation: Torch" begins with the landings at Algiers, Oran and Casablanca.(Incidently, the initial U.S./ Allied Landings were hampered, when the French navy stationed there, under the control of Vichy forces, sympathetic to the German cause, breifly engaged the landings.)
Previously, after the failed invasion attempt at Dieppe, by British and Commom Wealth forces. priminister Churchill meets President Roosevelt, 18th June 1942, for dissucsion of another "Combined Allied" invasion, amongst theses dicussions were the planning and development of the Atomic Bomb.
Shorlty there after U.S. troops and equipment start to embark on the British Isles.
Weanwhile, while the Americans were starting to gain ground against the japanese, their debut combat in North Africa, faired less well, After initial sucesses, from the 10th November 1942, taking Oran, and Casablanca on the 12th, reaching cyene on 18th November.Then reaching the Kasserine Pass, Only to be pushed right back to where they landed, only to retake Kasserine, in a combine British, Common Wealth, and U.S. attack, on 25th February 1943.

Even when the Allies landed in normandy 5/6th June 1944, and by now the Americans assumed overall control of all Allied operations, due in part to thier majority of troops, and finanical commitment, the liberation, of France was a combined affort, and at the behaste of De Gaulle, It was infact forces of the "Free French Army" that ultimately "Liberated" France.

While the efforts of the Americans cant not be Trivilized, they did not "Single-Handedly" save, or win the the Second-World-War, and ultimately delayed entry into the European conflict, far to late. Which "Might" have otherwise saved many lives - but thats an entirely speculative debate!

HeibgesU999
05-08-2004, 10:57 AM
even after D-Day many folks didn't see why we Americans were fighting in Europe. they thought the war in the Pacific was our War, and to let the Europeans fight it out amongst themselves.

but what choice did america have hitler declared war on us. if he had been smart, and considering japan's reluctance to enter a war with the USSR, he would have declared war on Japan for their "cowardly attack" on the united states.

[This message was edited by HeibgesU999 on Sat May 08 2004 at 10:07 AM.]

nachocura1
05-08-2004, 12:27 PM
You know, I really agree ingsoc41, because, the game woldnâ´t be complete with the Swastika. It would just look bad the Bismark with a white space or other insignia. It would decrece realism a lot. Its like watching a very bad special effects movie. Just forget about its political reason, or make a option to enable it or disable it as you wish. If thats not possible you can make a version for the US with it and an european version with out it. But please dont make it with out it

ulfr1066
05-08-2004, 08:29 PM
As noted by others above the bismarck still wears its swastika in death. As for having it game, i think that some image as a placeholder will be necessary as I doubt they will have a special german only version. A iron cross would do better instead of a big white and red circle though for being less jarring visually, but leaving it blank draw attention to the fact that is an altered image and perhaps is then better than doctoring history.

http://www.pbs.org/hood/news/images/bismarck/swastika.jpg

Drebbel
05-12-2004, 11:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ingsoc41:
Didnt know UBI was a french company..I generally STAY away from buying ANYTHING french....but in my new apartment in Petersburg...i couldn't help but buy a french toilet...Dalafont.....think about it for a moment..and you will get the point..the french also 61% believe we are blowing this 911 out of proportion...but then...the last time the french sucessfully fought a campaign was right outside Moscow...and look what happened there..
The french as we all know have been saved by the Americans in THREE wars...WWI.WWII..and the cold war...they want to protect their beloved Paris at any cost.and in my opinion will drop thier rifles if the shooting ever started..but then french have their large muslim population who now try to dictate policy...gotta love it...
I remember the remark from the Movie we were soldiers once and young
"Frency Army...what that?"........sorry...but the french piss me off...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now why do you start bashing the French ?

How often have you been there and how many French people have to spoken to ?

The swastika is forbidden (but there are some exceptions) in the Netherlands as well. That is ok with me, I don't need any swastikas in SHIII

Also I respect that it was decided to bann the swastika in Holland. Afterall that decision was made by people who actually experienced WWII


Drebbel

The Submarines of the Royal Netherlands Navy 1906 - 2004
http://www.DutchSubmarines.com/
We have a NEW FORUM:
http://www.dutchsubmarines.com/phpbb2/
http://www.dutchsubmarines.com/hosting/images/sig/drebbel/kmoorlwp.gif

jagtigermk2
05-12-2004, 12:48 PM
Whats that French saying?, "he who fights and runs away, will live to fight another day".

wunwinglow
05-13-2004, 03:17 PM
This question crops up so many times on WWII games and simulations. I would rather see the swastika left in place. Removing it, or 'cartooning' it (like the cigarette adverts on Formula 1 cars) just draws attention to it in a very cowardly way. Dreadful things have happened in mankinds history. You cannot 'whitewash' these things by simply removing a graphic symbol. Remember, we have all taken a step towards 'trivialising' history just by turning war into a game!! To redeem ourselves, we MUST learn from history, and simulation games are a very powerful way of doing this work. Which is worse, seeing an image of a swastika, or 'playing' at sending a ship, its cargo, and most importantly its crew, to a watery grave?

As avid simulation fans, we all owe it to all our ancestors who really did give their lives in wartime, whatever flag they marched beneath. We have the luxury of picking what role we wish to undertake, which war zone, which army, and of course we do not die, and we can just switch our PC off and go to bed when we are tired. They could not. Use you games to try to comprehend what they suffered, and perhaps try to educate others as well.

I am English, but I do not wish to 'take sides' in this matter. The experiences of any person in war are common, and continue, as any TV news report today will show. Mankind has yet to fully learn from its past, and so often repeats the errors shown in history.

The swastika is part of that history. deleting it from a 'game' denies its existance, anaesthetises the viewer of responsibility, and degrades the learning experience. And, sooner or later, history will repeat itself as a result.

Tim

paxhispanica
05-15-2004, 08:21 AM
Well said

Bruno_Lotse
05-15-2004, 10:05 AM
Very well said.
Can't agree more especially in relations of sim and learning history.
Whitewashing history is akin to forgetting it and we all know what might happen when history is forgotten.

Bruno Lotse
U45

AndrewOC
05-26-2004, 11:27 AM
I dont really care either way. I mean, how many times are we going to be looking at the aft deck of the Bismark? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif
A face would do fine, or a cross.
BUT, if peopledo want to have a Swaztica, i think they should be able to. (Maybe a skin)

[This message was edited by AndrewOC on Wed May 26 2004 at 10:35 AM.]

Stevepine
05-26-2004, 05:59 PM
Ingsoc, I am British and I consider my self European as well as 100% British. I am no appeaser and find your comments offensive.

The Swastika should definitely be included. thats the only point that should be discussed here. Not bashing Europeans.

Bush has a set of ball as you say , i will give you that, the problem is that he has no Brain. Muscle without the intelligence to know and understand how to apply it seems to be the American way under bush. Kerry 2004!

hans_langsdorff
10-10-2005, 08:59 PM
I dont think its a big deal really because its historically accurate and it a big part of what the bismarck stood for. and one of the bismarcks famous atributes. i think it would be like leaving out a turret or something. thats just my opion.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b354/hans_langsdorff1/logo2.jpg

Kaleun1961
10-10-2005, 09:43 PM
Hans, a bit of friendly advice: don't post replies to threads that are months old and dead. People will make fun of you for doing so. Instead, start a new discussion on the topic and people will treat it more seriously.

FI-Aflak
10-10-2005, 10:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kapitan_Nereus:
Alright, i made this topic because i'm curious and bored, but mainly curious

We all know what the Swaztica stood for and what its part in history was.
but the Devs appear to be hesitating when it rears its ugly head.

So:

Would it bother you if the Swaztica is in Silent Hunter III?
(On the Bismarck, flags,or any other objects of historical significance?)

(No offense to anybody is intended. If offense is caused, i apologize)

"The Hunt is on..." </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Swastika is not a German symbol. It is seen in Eastern civilization (I was in China a couple summers ago -- there are swastikas all over the place).

Even in European History it is not limited to the nazis. The Finns used it as their symbol and there fight against the soviets before, during, and after WWII is one of the greatest stories of bravery ever recorded. The swastika doesn't bother me at all.

HW3
10-10-2005, 10:15 PM
I second what Kaleun1961 said and besides the first post under the thread starters said it all. It is illegal in some countries so you won't see it in games they want to sell in those countries.

Pr0metheus 1962
10-10-2005, 11:13 PM
The swastika or hakenkreutz can be added to the game fairly easily for those who want it. Check out these screenshots:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/Beery/Bis2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/Beery/ID2.jpg

There are a couple of mods floating around that add the swastika to the menu screens and ships/aircraft. So if you don't want them you have that option, and if you do want them you can get them.

Liberi_Fatali
10-11-2005, 04:08 AM
'The love for one country, leads to the hate of another' is all I can say after reading this thread..... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

deano131
10-11-2005, 08:16 AM
im british, love my country and hate my government and personally think they should be included as they were there at the time, id like the game to be historically accurate.

seeing one isn't going to suddenly make me think that i'll become an intolerant nazi as i'm smart enough to see through the progaganda and symbolism of the third reich.

Ahopelto
10-11-2005, 11:36 AM
the way I see it, I we're playing a game about the Second World War. There were Swastika's in the that war, so they should be in the games about it. I don't see how any symbol can be offensive... Even if the symbol isn't there, the characters in the game are still part of the German forces during WW2. Isn't, say, a German machine pistol, or a German... torpedo, more offensive than a symbol? They killed people.

Even though I don't understand why the symbol offends people, I respect that it does and I think there should be an option to turn it off in games. I've never seen this, but it sounds like a good idea.

The_BHB
10-11-2005, 12:16 PM
Ok im ENGLISH, not BRITISH or EUROPEAN, ENGLISH. I love my country, i love my Government to an extent.

I personally say that the Swastika should be included in SH3, why? because it is Historically accurate. If we are not going to include the swastika, then why include any of the flags? As someone said before, many more people hatre the US flag than the swastika (no offence to the USA, i am a pro yank person myself) So is it pollitically correct to include the US flag? Yes! Because the only reason why the Swastika is seen as a bad thing, is because of it's affiliation with the Nazi's. I say to all Germans, why exclude the swastika, it is a part of your country's history, i know people say they qwould rather forget about the Nazi's. But we english have done our fair share of bad deeds. Look at the Slave trade! That's a blemish on our history, but we don't refuse to acknowledge it's existence! We english suffered terribly at the hands of Hitler as well as the french, the germans, the Jews and to some extent the USA, but we don't refuse to acknowledge the Swastika ever existed like most of Europed does. I find that petty, and childlike, refusing to accept something because it is bad.

Anyway, all i say is include the swastika, it's part of history. If not then we MUST remove the US/UK flag from SH3 as well, because at the hands of the US and UK, many many Germans were killed.

Kaleun1961
10-11-2005, 01:58 PM
Ok guys, since you insist on resurrecting an old thread, here is my two cents worth.

BHB, don't beat yourself up over the slavery issue. Slavery was practiced by all peoples going back to day one. Yes, it was a shameful thing that has been done by one people to another, but let's not make it a racial issue as is so popular today. The British and Americans of the 19th century were the last of the many human tribes of history to do it, but let's give credit as well that they were the ones most instrumental in abolishing it. Sadly, slavery still goes on today, only under different guises, child prostitution, prison labour, Third World sweatshops, etc.

I do find it silly that people can get so worked up over the issue of a swastika in a game, while at the same time simulating the activities of the military which served under that swastika! Talk about inconsistency!

ILikePortillos
10-11-2005, 02:06 PM
I guess what I'm having a hard time understanding is why someone who would be offended by the swaztica would buy a game where they were playing as a Captain of a German U-Boat in WWII.

HW3
10-11-2005, 03:18 PM
What part of this sentence do you people not understand?
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It is illegal in some countries so you won't see it in games they want to sell in those countries. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Until the laws in those counties change, you will never see the swastika/hakenkreutz displayed in a game straight from the manufacturer if they want to continue doing business in those countries. As Beeryus has stated there are mods available that will display it for you if you want it.

ILikePortillos
10-11-2005, 03:51 PM
I thought that's what the debate was about, if it should be legal or not. Of course it's not, and you won't see it. I thought they meant should it be. Maybe I misread.

WilhelmSchulz.-
10-11-2005, 04:25 PM
In my copy there are swaztica's on the german flag and on the german warships. Is that only me??? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

TheRealWulfmann
10-11-2005, 04:30 PM
The Swastika on the Bismarck was for aircraft ID only.
Hitler did not like the Navy which was anti-Nazi. They refused to dismiss their Jewish officers when ordered and made a deal with the Nazis that meant they recognized them as the legitimate leaders in exchange the Nazis would have a hands off policy to the Jewish men and other men that had Jewish wives. These agreements were kept along with the official naval salute being the standard military salute not the Heil one.

The Swastika is a Hindu symbol to ward off evil.
If I found a Nazi flag at a garage sale I would buy it if the price was good but never display it as it represents evil, IMO.
In an historic game it should, IMO be as it was, if only to not sanitize the fact Germany was under a wicked spell.
The US Britain and allies liberated France, yes, but, IMO they liberated Germany as well. Then Pope John Paul and Ronald Regan liberated Russia!!!

As far as those that don't like America, tell it to someone that cares!

Wulfmann

WilhelmSchulz.-
10-11-2005, 04:36 PM
Wilhelm Schulz said once in a intervew, "Germany was under attack and had to be defended. Germany, Nazi or otherwise it was his duty to fight for her. The detals could be worked out latter." This is not word for word but this what he was saying.

hans_langsdorff
10-11-2005, 04:59 PM
ya i found out about the date after i posted my replie but i guess i started it back up. and about the swastica i dont see why it some affends people (like someone said in an earlyer post) its just a symbol,but if you dont like find a mod to take it off or something. http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b354/hans_langsdorff1/logo2.jpg

Acunnon
10-11-2005, 05:31 PM
Yes it is historically accurate but beyond that it is just a symbol. Symbols only have power when you give them power when you take that power away they mean nothing. Just like "offensive" words it is only offensive when you refuse to see it for what it is, a word. Hell, I noticed I have the bottom half of a swastika on my picture but it is just a symbol. Yes a group of evil and morally reprehensible people did pervert it from it original meaning and symbols can be powerful things but that power comes from people and people can just as easily take that power away.

W.Irving
10-11-2005, 05:47 PM
Germany should stop being so sodding ashamed of their history. It's a great nation consisting of lots of old monarchies and republics that once acted as petri dishes for lots of social and scientific changes. Look what twelve dark years can do to the reputation of a nation.

The communist regime in Russia was far worse than the nazi one (in terms of people killed).. and yet we resort to Godwins Law whenever Germany is mentioned. Shame on us!

And let's start making the swastika an acceptable symbol. Otherwise we will have allowed those twelve years and all those disillusionised people (the neonazis and the bigots) to have succeeded in twisting the meaning of a perfectly inoffensive symbol into their own tool. Let's deprive them of that instrument!

DiveDevil
10-11-2005, 06:08 PM
Huh this is an old one huh?

Well my version of the sim has swastikas' all over the place. There on posters on the wall in port my office screen all warships and aircraft and messages. Is it not illegal in America.
Nope the swastika does'nt bother me With this game your dealing with history, how can you leave a part (A HUGE PART) of history out of a sim like this. I'm playing the role of a U-boat captain during World War II, I expected to see a couple swastikas without even knowing it was illegal. I started checking out this thead because I didn't realize it was such a big deal not at this day and age. Look World War II was horrible for everybody and we can't change that, but it was also the major event of modern times and we can't change that either. The past can't be edited to anyones satisfaction it is what it is. If only it was that simple huh?

TheRealWulfmann
10-11-2005, 06:54 PM
Shan_Hackett

What a distorted one sided view on America’s attempt at helping fight Nazism.
First, England and France decided at Versailles to rape Germany and blame her for everything in WWI where all were equally to blame there. The treaty if Versailles was the single biggest reason for the rise of Hitler and the cause of WWII.
President Wilson warned we would not be a party to this travesty and when Britain and France were getting it back for their arrogance many American felt they were getting what they caused. Why should we spill our blood? That was the mood.
President Roosevelt knew this had gone beyond Britain’s folly and action was needed but could only sway so many at a time. The US Navy was involved, unofficially in a shooting war with U-Boats for months.
The P40 was the main RAF and Commonwealth fighter in the desert long before 1942. The first week of June 1941 P-40s were in action with 250 Sqdn and by summer Maryland bombers were in action as well as Martlets (F4Fs) and some B-17s.
Do you even know that lend lease was an excuse in that we gave all that stuff to Britain and others for their use and they were to give it back after wards. Did you? You were not paying a lease at all!!!
The US agreed to concentrate on Hitler first and deal with Japan later only holding her off.
Russia could build many more tanks because we supplied so many of her trucks.

The convoys were not quite as you said.
The US coastal convoys were US guarded, the southern routes were US guarded. The North Atlantic was Canadian on the west side and British on the east side. None of the three could work well together so it was so divided and did indeed work better than the arrogance of any participating.
BTW,It was a US supplied PBY they found the Bismarck or you would have lost her for good.
Had Britain and France not been so reckless at Versailles, there would likely never been a Hitler, or a world war. You brought it on yourself so had no choice.
We chose to bail you out.
You sound far from grateful and more making of those 1919 style prideful we are so so great attitudes that destroyed Europe.
Wulfmann

Bubblehead1948
10-11-2005, 08:11 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Aw, for cryin' out loud. I knew when I saw the premise for this thread it was going to end up in a brawl. Its just as predictable as rain. If you want swastikas, ya got 'em in the flag mods already. If ya don't want to look at 'em you can play the sim without them. Its almost funny. Not five entries went by, and folks were already dodging beer bottles and deck chairs. I think people start these banal threads just to see a good rounder ensue.

deano131
10-11-2005, 08:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TheRealWulfmann:
Had Britain and France not been so reckless at Versailles, there would likely never been a Hitler, or a world war. You brought it on yourself so had no choice.
Wulfmann </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i agree that the terms of versaille were harsh, but i don't think you can blame the uk and france for germany invading soverign nations, torturing and murdering its citizens and commiting mass genocide. communism was no better - another oppresive and hate filled excuse of a government.

germany was recovering in the mid to late 20's but that recovery was based on loans from america and when the USA called them in after the wall street crash it helped to ruin germany which allowed both left and right extremist parties to flourish due to social and economic conditions.

i suppose you could argue that america was actually a prime cause of the war.

TheRealWulfmann
10-11-2005, 09:18 PM
Do you have your own history books published to make it as you desire?
Germany was imposed with paying for the war from France and Britain. Wilson specifically said this would only lead to the desire for revenge and that rage prompted the blindness to bring on Hitler.
You may believe that self gratification but simple logic say Great Britain and France were the reason for the rise of Hitler.
Had those two countries acted responsibly, there would never have been a Hitler or a war.
Make up what ever makes you happy, but don't waste your time making poor excuses for the opportunity Britain and France had to make a lasting peace.
They choose vengeance over peace and they got WWII
Wulfmann

HW3
10-11-2005, 10:44 PM
Mods,
Time to lock this one up for good please.

Kaleun1961
10-12-2005, 02:31 PM
We can't call for censorship because people are getting uncomfortable, can we? I doubt that the moderators spend much time here anymore. If this thread was closed, I am sure it would start up again in a new thread.

DiveDevil
10-13-2005, 12:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">We can't call for censorship because people are getting uncomfortable, can we? I doubt that the moderators spend much time here anymore. If this thread was closed, I am sure it would start up again in a new thread. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You got that right Kaleun1961, this forum is adrift. I feel like Ubi has just kinda tucked us away in the back of their sock drawer. They've gotten what they wanted from us custies and unless someone threads something really offensive their not going to worry about what goes on in this place.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gifWe're the lost children of Ubi http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

acetoolguy
10-15-2005, 08:55 AM
Just as a side note, the swaztica was a symbol used by some American Indians. There is a town on the south shore of Mass that has a tiled version in the lobby floor of the town hall. they have resisted all efforts by some groups to have it removed arguing that they will not allow the nazis to hijack the meaning of the symbol.

TheRealWulfmann
10-15-2005, 11:57 AM
In such a case (personal opinion only) I would place a plague near by explaining this regarding its historic context.
There is a similar debate on the Confederate battle flag.
It was made half way through the Civil War so generals could see where their troops were because the original Confederate flag looked too much like the Union flag.
It was not a symbol of racism or slavery and if anything the Stars and Stripes could be considered more so.
But, the fact remains hate groups like the KKK and Arian Nation have embraced this flag and given the perception it represents hatred and exclusion.
It is unfortunate this proud battle flag has been dragged to the level of these jerks but that is how many see it.
When people perceive something to be true, they act towards it as if it is true.
No one can blame anyone for seeing the Swastika as a symbol of hate. I don't even see it in SH3 (I have put it in!) because it is there for historical accuracy.
But, if someone raised this flag in my neighborhood I would object strongly!
Wulfmann

Kaleun1961
10-15-2005, 08:13 PM
I've been to the Roman baths in Bath, U.K. The floor mosaic also features swastikas, showing that it indeed is a symbol of antiquity. I resent also the jerks who fly it to promote hatred. I also resent how our language is being hijacked, like the word "gay" for homosexual, for one example.

screaming_nazi
10-16-2005, 01:14 PM
Well... you all know what I think. =P

Interminate
10-16-2005, 03:32 PM
I like the swastika and am not ashamed of Germany's History. I wish they had won. Then all games would have swastikas. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

joeap
10-16-2005, 04:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Interminate:
I like the swastika and am not ashamed of Germany's History. I wish they had won. Then all games would have swastikas. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You deserve a bullet right between the eyes a@#$$%^

Fekin_Von_dEtRi
10-16-2005, 05:19 PM
Yes, I think the Swastika being removed from some aspects of history, be it games or publication, has been a heavy knee jerk reaction, and should therefore be employed where history is being told, in whatever medium.

There are a few things that always seem to crop up in debates like this, that are so far from the truth it makes the mind boggle.

America saved the whole of Europe by "bailing them out".
Incorrect.
Yes they supported the war in many ways, mainly by out producing Germany on a large scale, in Tanks, Aircraft and guns etc, and by also the supply of raw materials to the UK and Russia.

What the Americans could never do though was to actually man enough Tanks, Aircraft, Guns and fit out enough Infantary divisions to defeat the German armies in such a way.
Yes they had enough man power in the US to do so, but they could never persuade Congress to deploy men in such numbers for the fear of such heavy losses they would incure as a result.
The American public just would not accept such a waste of American lives that would result if they we're to deploy in great enough numbers to take on the German armies, and to crush them nearly alone, as some think was the case.

This thankless task was left to the Red Army of Russia.
After having their homeland slaughtered to such a degree for so many years, the Russian army only wanted revenge, spured on by the knowledge that if they didn't fight to the death, their own command would slaughter them instead for cowardice.
It was the Russians that took the massive toll in deaths that defeated Germany, as no other nation would sacrifice enough men to do the job in whole.
Yes many fought and died on all sides, but without Russia taking such losses, Germany would of most probably won the war, unless America deployed Atomic weapons like in Japan on a large scale.

"Hitler commited the worst atrocities in WW2"
Nope, Stalin did, and was doing so for many years before the start of WW2, and continued through the rest of the war and beyond.
Mr.Beria, head of the Russian NVKD made Himmler look like an amature in genocide.

Stalin's kill tally far exceedes that of Hitler's of none combatants murdered, but never has the Russian flag been banned\censored in anyway like the swastica has been.

The most stupid of things was that Americas insistance in unconditional surrender of Germany prolonged the war for atleast 3 months, where as if it had been conditional surrender, it is thought most of the armed forces would of given up long before the end, as unconditional surrender and the deindustrialisation of Germany down to a pessant country didn't strike too well for the German population, as anything worth stopping fighting for.

So really, banning the image of Nazi Germany and in a way gloryfing Russia is a little strange, where as I speak of games like Call Of Duty.

jessen2005
10-16-2005, 07:06 PM
Some of you may not know, but the swaztica is an old nordic symbol, going back to the vikings, and also the trade mark for a danish beer from 1870 to 1940, but as so many other things stolen by Hr. A.H.

Kaleun1961
10-16-2005, 07:15 PM
Interesting points. I can't say I agree with all of them, but you've put them forth fairly well.

I think it is impossible to say definitively what would have happened in the war without American involvement. Some have argued that Stalin would have beaten Hitler on his own. History never let that scenario play out. The fact of history is that the Americans were involved in that war right from the start, even if they weren't in there with all guns blazing.

Although it was the Brits who kept the war going, it was the Americans who kept them supplied. American production of trucks and foodstuffs allowed the Soviet Union to concentrate on production of tanks. Ironically, we could blame the Soviets for letting Hitler blitz the West in the first place. Their treaty with Germany secured Hitler's back door, while Soviet oil filled the tanks of the panzers. Would Hitler have rolled the dice with Poland if he thought Stalin would intervene on the side of the West?

Even had Hitler succeeded in knocking out the West, could he have still defeated the Soviet Union? Another thing to consider is that America had to mobilize to fight two full scale wars and deploy a two-ocean navy, not a small feat in a few short years.

I agree with you that Stalin was a bigger butcher than Hitler. What is especially shameful about Stalin is that he did it to his own people. At least with Hitler, if we can put it this way, is that his enemies were mostly external.

TheRealWulfmann
10-16-2005, 08:44 PM
I generally agree with the Feker.

I do not think Russia would have beaten Germany alone but there is no doubt Germany was devoting 75% of the army against the Reds.
I also agree Stalin murdered more people than Hitler (although he killed Jews and Gentiles without difference)
Stalin also invaded Poland and yet Britain and France only declared war on Germany. .
If Russia had been lnocked out of the war the allies could not have pulled off Normandy.
Many what ifs but the fact is the Swastika became a symbol much greater in perceived evil than anything of recent history, fair or not, that's the fact Jack.
I still have it in SH3 and CFS3 and will use it for historic corretness, nothing more

Wulfmann

Fekin_Von_dEtRi
10-17-2005, 02:46 AM
Yes, everything I posted was through my interest in WW2 history, and from the most recent studies, and not personal judgment.

I would say looking at the whole war that if America had only supplied materials and not man power, then the outcome in eastern europe would of still been the same, although the war would of gone on longer than what it did, since the russians were willing to throw in every single man, woman and child into the fight.
As to what the rest of the world would of been like I have no idea.

The simple stats speak for themselves.

U.S.S.R
Population. 194 million
Killed/Missing Forces. 9 million
Wounded. 18 million
Civilian (deaths). 19 million


U.S.A.
Population. 129 million
Killed/Missing Forces. 300,000
Wounded. 300,000
Civilian (deaths). 0


Germany
Country Pop. 78 million
Killed/Mising. 3.5 million
Wounded. 4.6 million
Civilian (deaths) 2million

Obviously every time a estimate is made upon losses it is always speculative, but all estimates are always along similar lines of numbers.

So in the end it was simply going to be a sustained period, longer than what actually happened, of attrition, which Russia had overwhelming superiority in numbers.

Quite shocking when you really think about it.

There was also one person that helped massivly to defeat Germany militarily, and that was Hitler himself, as the war was progressing towards mid 44.

joeap
10-17-2005, 11:03 AM
Still I can't help thinking that the resources Germany spent on air defence, and on the KM (over 1000 u-boats and 50000 highly trained - note the highly trained as of course the numbers are much smaller than the ground forces committed in Russia- u-boat crew) "helped" Russia esp. as the KM had a very small role to play in the East.

Also, had the US and the Commonweatlth forces not had to fight against Japan that might have made some difference to the timing of the outcome.

I also would propose a part of the reason for high Soviet casualties during the war esp. the early period was Stalin himself.

Thoughts? Flames? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Kaleun1961
10-17-2005, 11:46 AM
Joeap is correct in his point about Stalin's ineptitude with the Red Army. This manifested itself in two ways.

First was Stalin's butchery of his officer corps, during which most of his higher officers were executed or exiled. This not only had an immediate effect of downgrading the readiness of the Red Army, but also hindered it for years to come, as training suffered and the Red Army was so weakened to the point that Hitler was emboldened to attack.

Secondly, Stalin's handling of the Red Army in war caused it to suffer far more casualties than it necessarily had to suffer. His stand-fast orders led to great encirclements of entire armies, and his unrealistic counterattack orders led to further loss of men and equipment in hopeless attacks.

It is true that the Red Army inflicted the greatest number of casualties on the Wehrmacht, grinding down numerous German divisions in a great war of attrition. This should not be looked upon as the Western Allies not doing their part, because we did not suffer casualties to the same extent. The Western nations suffered great slaughter in WW1 and were determined not to suffer so again. This led to the development of mechanization, which reduced the number of casualties by both sides in the Blitzkrieg of 1940. The main contribution to the war effort which had the most immediate effect of reducing the pressure on the Soviet Union was the destruction of the Luftwaffe by the Western air forces. The Luftwaffe on the Eastern Front was not ground down by the Red Air Force, it was drained away by the necessity of defending the Reich against the RAF and the USAAF.

As Joeap mentions, the Western Allies had to devote enormous resources to their maritime effort in order to secure any hope of a counterattack in the West. Even whilst fighting this battle, they were able to send vital aid to the Soviet Union. I'm not saying this was decisive, merely that it helped to sustain the Red Army through that period when they were losing their breadbasket and relocating their industry, which was a brilliantly managed move on the part of the Soviets.

When we think how close Germany came to defeating the Red Army in 1941, in spite of the need to keep forces in the West, it really was a closely run affair. Let us not forget the vital 6 weeks or so of good weather and the wear and tear on men and materiel that was caused by the necessity of the Wehrmacht to invade and secure the Balkans.

In the end, it was a combined Allied effort of all nations which defeated Nazi Germany. The fact that it took all of those nations six years should tell us that the Germans were an incredibly skilled and brave foe.

Acunnon
10-17-2005, 12:54 PM
History buffs love a good game of 'what if' don't they. I hate to sound my Yankee bugle but I think that if the US did not join in the war Germany might have just won in the end.

With out US bombers and fighters decimating the Luftwaffe industrial centers (remember the Limies were bombing cities at night) far more plains tanks and personal would be available for the east. With out the US there would likely never of been a D-day and as such many units that were pulled off the Russian front would still be there. HA the Russian way of stopping a German tank is to rush 20 men in front of tank so the tracks get clogged up, moronic human wave assaults. We all seem to agree that with out the US the war would have gone on longer but I think the Eastern Front was bleeding the Russians dry at a faster rate than it was the Germans. What would of happened if you take the US out of the equasion entirly, happys days for Germany.

I can hear a flame coming, arrogant Yankee thinks he is better than all of us, but this is just how I see it. Personally I agree with Patton we should have re armed the Germans and kicked the **** out of the Russians when we had the chance, saved to world fifty years of cold war bull ****. ****ing bastard Roosevelt screwed the world and the future of the US just to make himself look good. Got a little hot headed there sorry.

Though I though this topic was suppose to be about weather or not the swastika is ok in videogames from a historic and or political perspective? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

TheRealWulfmann
10-17-2005, 08:46 PM
The Allied bomber offense was actually a failure, most now agree. While it crippled some things Germany was never without material to wage war. When we destroyed a factory we forced the people to work without the roof but the heavy machinery was rarely hurt badly.
In the very end it was lack of fuel and that because they lost their fields to the Soviets in the ground war and not the bombing.
They had plenty of jets, but no fuel; they had loads of U-Boats but little fuel.

We did manage to kill 2 million civilians, punishment for being in Germany, a tragic war crime but war crimes are only charged to the losers. There were many days when we killed more German civilians than died during the entire war from the so called Blitz of England.

No matter how one looks at it a two front war doomed Germany and yet they almost pulled it off. If Mussolini had left Greece alone, the Greeks (Metexa was a fascist) would have stayed away from Britain and those 6 weeks might have been the biggest difference.
But, there are many similar turning points that can be considered crucial.
Imagine if they did not invade Russia and sent one million of those 3 million to Africa and taken everything through Iran. If the US came in against them they would have to fight only from England and those another million would be added to the Atlantic Wall!!! The last million would be in defensive positions in the east.
Scary what could have happened and just the delay of the war a couple years would have regarding technology.
Fun to ponder but does not change the facts.

In the end the world is a better place without Nazism

Wulfmann

Acunnon
10-17-2005, 09:19 PM
The russians may have captured German oil fields but US bomber raids destroyed German synthetic oil productions which was not at full production when destroyed. It is a distinct possibility that if those synthetic oil facilities were not destroyed Germany may have hade the oil to give the russians what for.