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chris455
02-06-2004, 02:18 AM
Interesting stuff: http://home.earthlink.net/~jimdoss/GROSSHUESCH.htm

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

chris455
02-06-2004, 02:18 AM
Interesting stuff: http://home.earthlink.net/~jimdoss/GROSSHUESCH.htm

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

histrionic
02-06-2004, 02:37 AM
pilot sounds real racist, i spit on him *ptui*

Fehler
02-06-2004, 04:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by histrionic:
pilot sounds real racist, i spit on him *ptui*<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

***Shakes head***

During that era, there was no such thing as political correctness. The Japanese deliberately attacked a pratically defenseless Navy depot on a Sunday morning. They practiced this attack for over a year while pretending to engage in peace negotiations with the United States. Their attack was calculated to inflict maximum damage and casualities because of the time and day of the week the attack occurred.

Now... After putting yourself in that mindset, let's go back to the pilots words. Should the pilot have said.. "When attacking the fine Asian Gentleman from Japan, remember not to maneuver with him." ...Oh, by the way, if you are shot down and captured by the fine Asian Gentlemen from Japan, they will show you no quarter, and will probably either work you, starve you, or beat you to death.

I am an American, and my wife is Filipino. I have relatives that fought in the Philippines, and my uncle was in the dreaded Bataan march. Many of my wifes family members, including her father, were Freedom fighters. An Aunt bears the scars from a Japanese bayonet that she received at the ripe old age of 8. None of them have a love loss for the Japanese military of WWII.

Oh, and as for war crimes... The Japanese murdered millions of innocent Chinese. The only thing they lacked was Nazi Germany's efficiency in mass murder. They were just as ruthless and just as evil. Their crimes were perpetuated on the exact same philosophy.. "If you are not like us, you are inferior, and deserve death."

They did have some pretty cool planes though... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/9JG54.html

Cajun76
02-06-2004, 05:01 AM
FYI, the Japanese call their homeland "Nippon", not Japan. Just as Germany is Deutchland, to the "Germans." I'm not saying anything for or against the account, as terms and conditions were differant in that era. We DO NOT need another "jap" debate. Stay away, at all costs from it.

An interesting side, if you click "Return" at the bottom, there are other accounts by differant pilots, most notably Bong.

Good hunting,
Cajun76

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Endy1
02-06-2004, 07:40 AM
A good read, thanks Chris


Tally-ho

Dave

p1ngu666
02-06-2004, 07:56 AM
the japs did want peace, thats why they caried on with negoations for so long..

they where certainly different culture too. my grandad said they would try and rip off there bandadges and stuff and try to kill themselves. (he was a medic) ironicaly they where told they would be treated like they treated there pow's. told there soldiers pow's where treated very well.

Cajun76
02-06-2004, 08:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
the japs did want peace, thats why they caried on with negoations for so long..
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif Why, I ask you.... What is the need felt by some to look at the world through rose colored glasses, and start a debate that DOES NOT need to be started. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

The article, what did you think of the article? I'm not going to try and correct you, or debate you, I'll let it drop..... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-mad.gif but the topic is the article.....

Good hunting,
Cajun76

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ZG77_Nagual
02-06-2004, 08:25 AM
Tone of the times gentlemen. It is simply the language of another era - foolish to be offended by it since the article is old and simply being reprinted in it's original form - moreover it is an article about air combat.

Good article by the way.

DONB3397
02-06-2004, 09:08 AM
Getting back to the thread's question and link, it seems to me that the Captain captured his views in two sentences: "KEEP YOUR SPEED UP, DON'T CHOP YOUR THROTTLE. One good burst will finish him, anyway." The P-47 simply couldn't maneuver with a Zero or Oscar, or even a Frank (the Japanese 'Thunderbolt as some people have called it). This was discussed at length in another thread concerning the P-47 vs. Ki-84. The P-47 was a tough, resilient energy fighter in real life...and is in FB.

Here's a link that Milo provided in the last thread. It covers P-47 tactics in Europe. Read the section on offensive and defensive tactics. They also seem appropriate for the PTO.

http://www.78thfightergroup.com/history/8thFCpublications.html

Winning isn't everything;
It's the only thing!
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michapma
02-06-2004, 09:30 AM
To sum up the author's assessment, what a fighter pilot must know:

1) A valuable pilot to a squadron should be able to see, not just scan the sky, but see everything.

2) A good pilot must be able to fly a good tactical formation.

3) A pilot has to know his plane.

Beyond these, his basic advice is never to turn with the enemy aircraft, use speed and climb at a speed at which the enemy can't keep up, don't refuse a head on (in FB many choke on that, as it's generally not a good idea), and keep your head. He states that he believes at that point in the war, 50% of Nipponese pilots were not well trained and had little combat experience and poor situational awareness. This is a perfectly justified point of view. He also makes some mention of team tactics.

Our Lone-Ranger dogfight tactics would be pretty absurd in comparison. I've never seen a flight of four human-controlled aircraft in a good tactical formation online; if I did I think I'd crap myself.

The story he relates is great: "For nearly an hour eight P-47's protected a group of bombers from approximately 30 Jap Tony's and Zeke's. The Nips continually made passes with two or three ships from all sides. Our defense was to turn into them. They would immediately break away and we could continue over the bombers, but after a while their uneagerness and lack of coordination got the best of them and they left. Our favorite defense, if the enemy is seen in time, is to climb the whole squadron out of danger, then to come back and attack."

That's one big difference between warfare and our virtual world: behavior when your life is really on the line. That's what'll prompt you to learn to fly in formation and study team tactics. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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Bearcat99
02-06-2004, 10:13 AM
During that era, there was no such thing as political correctness. The Japanese deliberately attacked a pratically defenseless Navy depot on a Sunday morning. They practiced this attack for over a year while pretending to engage in peace negotiations with the United States. Their attack was calculated to inflict maximum damage and casualities because of the time and day of the week the attack occurred.

Now... After putting yourself in that mindset, let's go back to the pilots words. Should the pilot have said.. "When attacking the fine Asian Gentleman from Japan, remember not to maneuver with him." ...Oh, by the way, if you are shot down and captured by the fine Asian Gentlemen from Japan, they will show you no quarter, and will probably either work you, starve you, or beat you to death.

I am an American, and my wife is Filipino. I have relatives that fought in the Philippines, and my uncle was in the dreaded Bataan march. Many of my wifes family members, including her father, were Freedom fighters. An Aunt bears the scars from a Japanese bayonet that she received at the ripe old age of 8. None of them have a love loss for the Japanese military of WWII.

Oh, and as for war crimes... The Japanese murdered millions of innocent Chinese. The only thing they lacked was Nazi Germany's efficiency in mass murder. They were just as ruthless and just as evil. Their crimes were perpetuated on the exact same philosophy.. "If you are not like us, you are inferior, and deserve death."

They did have some pretty cool planes though... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


************************************************

Exactly Fehler... it was the times.. Plus you must remember a lot of these pilots lost friends or relatives at Pearl or somewhere else in the war..or they knew somone else who did.

Asa far as the article goes.... a good read. I find that formation flying in FB is rather difficult..what did the real pilots use? did they call out manipressure and throotle position? How did they do it because i would like to get it down. What I do now is I will fly a coop as a single mission in a wingman slot and try to keep my distance to the leader. I am getting the hang of it but it is a constant fiddling with pitch and throttle.

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MiloMorai
02-06-2004, 10:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bearcat99:

Asa far as the article goes.... a good read. I find that formation flying in FB is rather difficult..what did the real pilots use? did they call out manipressure and throotle position? How did they do it because i would like to get it down. What I do now is I will fly a coop as a single mission in a wingman slot and try to keep my distance to the leader. I am getting the hang of it but it is a constant fiddling with pitch and throttle.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Experience &gt; lots of flying.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Just like riding down the road on the scoot, corrections are done without even thinking to keep 'formation'.

The lead did have comms so he would tell his wingman what he was about to do. Experience again would help, just like in hockey where the linemate knows what his linemate will do in a any particular situation.(intuition)



Long live the Horse Clans.

tagert
02-06-2004, 11:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by histrionic:
pilot sounds real racist, i spit on him *ptui*<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>WOW! What a boob!

TAGERT

Blutarski2004
02-06-2004, 11:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tagert:
WOW! What a boob!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


How many people uttered those same words last Sunday ??? ....... ;-)

BLUTARSKI

tagert
02-06-2004, 12:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Blutarski2004:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tagert:
WOW! What a boob!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


How many people uttered those same words last Sunday ??? ....... ;-)

BLUTARSKI<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Huh? What are you talki... OOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooooooo......... ROTFL!

TAGERT

chris455
02-06-2004, 12:17 PM
I particularly enjoyed the advice about extending away by going into a shallow climb @ 200 mph (322 kph).
I'm going to try this in my P-47 in FB against a Zero, and see if it works.
I'll bet that, given enough initial distance, it just might-

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

XyZspineZyX
02-06-2004, 12:32 PM
Be prepared to use *patience* Chris... something that many DF server denizens just don't have.

An important thing to remember is you can't expect to take out "one Zeke every pass". If he sees you, he can evade you. You may need many passes, especially if the combat only involves a few planes.

tttiger
02-06-2004, 12:55 PM
An excellent read and good advice. Thank you, Chris.

Boom & Zoom means exactly that. If you turn more than 90 degrees, you're doing it wrong and will bleed too much energy. And will die.

And, yes, B&Z requires good team tactics. The Lone Ranger can do it. But to really do it effectively you have to be flying with squaddies on voice coms and tag-team the enemy. Never let him recover energy.

As to the revisionist historians...There is an excellent and highly readable new history of the US Army in North Africa by Pulitzer Price winner Rick Atkinson called "An Army at Dawn." It just came out in paperback, the hardbound edition was very expensive (If I'd have waited another month, the cheaper paperback would have been out http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif).

The major thesis is how "green" the US Army was at the start of the campaign and how it both learned from mistakes and ignored other mistakes. Eisenhower and many others -- including Patton -- made huge blunders, some of which they would repeat in the ETO (Patton had no real understanding of or appreciation for logistics and continued to outrun his fuel and ammo suppy trains, for example).

The American soldier was so incompetent the veteran and highly effective British troops didn't want to be anywhere near US forces, although they often were lumped together in task forces.

One of the key points Atkinson makes is the US soldier did hot "hate" Germans at the start of that campaign. Most of them had never met a German. By the end of that campaign, after seeing so many of their buddies killed and maimed, the GIs hated Germans with a passion and were much more aggressive and effective.

My uncle was a Jug pilot in the 9th Air Force. He also was Jewish. I guarantee you he loved killing Germans. And he hated them until the day he died, about five years ago. He would not understand any of you in a flight sim who fly Nazi airplanes (and neither can I, for that matter).

"Hate" is an essential element in making war effectively. If you don't know that, you've never been to war or even in the military. It's what has made US performance in guerrilla wars like Vietnam and Iraq so lame. Fighting people you don't hate isn't very effective.

That's reality. Take your revisionism and bleeding hearts elsewhere, please.

And, again, thanks Chris for a good link on tactics http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Aloha,

ttt

"I want the one that kills the best with the least amount of risk to me"

-- Chuck Yeager describing "The Best Airplane."

[This message was edited by tttiger on Fri February 06 2004 at 12:07 PM.]

CRSutton
02-06-2004, 01:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
Be prepared to use *patience* Chris... something that many DF server denizens just don't have.

An important thing to remember is you can't expect to take out "one Zeke every pass". If he sees you, he can evade you. You may need many passes, especially if the combat only involves a few planes.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, that is what I got from the article. That is why formation flying was so important. If your target evades then he is most likely turning into the guns of one of your wingmen. This only works if your flight is maintaining formation. Interesting.

It is also important to note that very few Japanese fighters possessed radios. This put them at a severe tactical disadvantage as they had to rely on hand and wing signals to relay information. Almost impossible to do once they were seriously engaged.

jung0l
02-06-2004, 01:21 PM
This page has a lot of links to other pilot accounts, always a good thing. Thanks for posting

chris455
02-06-2004, 01:24 PM
For those who have read Eric Bergerud's excellent "Fire In The Sky", the article is significant in Grossheusch's assessment that "50% of the japs are stupid novices and.........the other 50% are exceptional"

At the time the article was written (I'm guessing mid-late '43) The USAAF was really only just gaining strategic ascendancy over the JAAF in the SWPA. Tactical superiority had been acheived somewhat earlier, even though on an individual basis, Japanese pilots could always be deadly opononents. (I believe any veteran of the South Pacific will corroborate this).

It's clear to me that by the time this article was written, Japanese airmen were already being trained by those who themselves could not qualify ("those who cannot do, teach")for combat flight duty, and the cadre of experienced airman (JAAF) were probabaly well below 50% of the formations which the Americans were being confronted with. It only degenerated from there. Also significant is the statement about the formation of Hayate (Grossheusch referring to them by their allied codename of "Frank") who conducted excellent formation-keeping, but failed to cover their six and were shot down. Thus, even though in this case the Japanese were equipped with what was arguably one of the best planes to see action in the SWPA, it all went for nought through a lack of pilot skill. It all comes back to the man.

PS TTiger, I salute your grandfather for a job well done, I am glad he survived the war- http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

LW_Fellfrosch
02-06-2004, 01:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>He would not understand any of you in a flight sim who fly Nazi airplanes (and neither can I, for that matter)."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I fly "nazi birds" not because I'm some kind of closet neo-nazi skinhead (not in the slightest). But because ever since I was a kid I've had a keen interest WW2, especially the German side... namely thier equipment. They had some first class gear. (not saying the allies didn't either because we did). I find the whole history of why Germany started agression in Europe to be interesting.

Really not that hard to understand. It has to do with love of the machine.. Not the fanatic who was in control of it. (Machine= Germany Fanatic= Hitler).

shadyfred
02-06-2004, 03:25 PM
"I spit on him - ptui"??????

You can say something like that once you've been there, you intolerant child. Until then, keep your crass and ignorant opinions to yourself, person who is only able to rant because of the efforts of men like him...

XyZspineZyX
02-06-2004, 03:32 PM
tttiger wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>He would not understand any of you in a flight sim who fly Nazi airplanes (and neither can I, for that matter).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

For your Grandpa, I can understand his POV. For YOU, however, it's inexcusable.

Anybody lacking that historical viewpoint (e.g., having been there) who makes the connection that a person who wants to fly a German (or Italian, or Japanese) plane online in a flight sim means that they're a closet (or even a out-front-with-it) Nazi, Fascist, Imperialist is totally out of line.

Your plane choice in this sim has *bugger all* to do with your political motivation or belief system. Inferring anything to the contrary is amazingly ignorant.

I'm African American. The Nazis consider my kind to be as "subhuman" (or even lesser) than Jews or Russian Slavs. But I do like and fly German planes. Needless to say, I don't agree a teeny weeny bit with such ideology.

Also, as a board wargamer back in the day, I loved Civil War games (like "Terrible Swift Sword"). But, if I found myself commanding Confederate forces, I could do so with gusto, despite an obvious disagreement with the policy of that particular government.

The real life politics had no connection to the study of the tactics.

robban75
02-06-2004, 03:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tttiger:
My uncle was a Jug pilot in the 9th Air Force. He also was Jewish. I guarantee you he loved killing Germans. And he hated them until the day he died, about five years ago. He would not understand any of you in a flight sim who fly Nazi airplanes (and neither can I, for that matter).

"Hate" is an essential element in making war effectively.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I mean no disrespect to your late uncle, but judging from some of the posts on these forums, it sometimes seems as though some of that hatred continues to grow in the newer generation. Although it's important to remember all the cruelty that went on during the second world war, I think the current generation and generations to come would benefit in understanding that WW2 ended 60 years ago and it's time to stop "hating" Germans.

http://members.chello.se/unni/Dora-9-3.JPG

When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!

shadyfred
02-06-2004, 03:47 PM
You got it in one Stiglr:

The attitudes of the past do not imprison my opinions, but nor do they excuse my intolerance: "physician heal thyself..."

Baltar
02-06-2004, 06:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>My uncle was a Jug pilot in the 9th Air Force. He also was Jewish. I guarantee you he loved killing Germans. And he hated them until the day he died, about five years ago. He would not understand any of you in a flight sim who fly Nazi airplanes (and neither can I, for that matter).

"Hate" is an essential element in making war effectively. If you don't know that, you've never been to war or even in the military. It's what has made US performance in guerrilla wars like Vietnam and Iraq so lame. Fighting people you don't hate isn't very effective.

That's reality. Take your revisionism and bleeding hearts elsewhere, please.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That, sir, is bulls***. I'm shocked you'd reflect (with some pride?) on your grandfather's hatred in anything but a negative light. He maintained a hatred for a people sixty-odd years after the end of the conflict? In what way is that productive or beneficial?

'Hate' has nothing to do with warmaking or proper soldiering. The whole point of military training to is to strip you of your emotions and turn you into someone willing to carry out your orders immediately and without question. If you don't know that, you've never been to war or even in the military, right?http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Hatred is an emotional vessel to stay sane and justify one's actions; that doesn't make it the only recourse though. It's just another ego defense. I remember an interview with an SAS soldier some time back where he said that he treated the enemy as an obstacle, something not human. Sounds to me like 'getting the job done', not outright hatred. I'm not saying I find the occasional 'Die you Commie bastard!!' or racial nicknames found in the above article to be bad really (in the context of soldiering), but there is a limit.

Funny you mention revisionism; your comment about the US's performance in Vietnam and Iraq smacks of it. It's quite absurd that you'd take an issue as complex as Vietnam and boil it down to a 'lack of hatred'. Not only is that a laughably narrow-minded view of the subject, it's also flatly not true. What of our recruitment standards of the period? What of the politicians' meddling in the military decision making? etc.

Blottogg
02-06-2004, 07:52 PM
Chris thanks for the post. I've had a hard time finding out about Japanese tactics during WWII, and this sheds a little light on why. Most of the stuff on Japanese fighter pilots is more drama than tactics, and I think this is in part a cultural thing related to the Samurai, Bushido, and the "warrior mentality". I'll leave the ethical debates about PC and hatred to the philosophers in the forum.

Bearcat99 and Milo, formation flying is a skill that requires some instruction, but it's fairly straightforward. Lead will set power below full military (in jets we'd use either RPM or EGT, for props I assume they'd use RPM or manifold pressure) to give the wingmen some wiggle room to adjust fore aft. Our turns were usually comm-out (two-ships are like children, they should be seen and not heard), and I assume theirs were, too. Flying loosely enough to look around without hitting lead, the wingies can still see lead initiate a turn out of their peripheral vision. If he's considerate, he should signal this with a wing rock beforehand as a "heads up". Wingies also usually fly in "fighting wing" behind lead and to one side, and free to "float" from one side to the other in order to use geometry to keep in formation, rather than brute throttle. All this takes some practice, but if everyone understands the rules (the formation "contract") it's not too difficult to do.

I don't fly on line, but I'd imagine there's little of this kind of cooperation. It does require some training, and also means that the wingies don't do much shooting. Once the fighting starts, it becomes very much a comm-in thing as well, and that requires radio (or TeamSpeak) discipline. I imagine that on line fighting looks a lot more like what I imagine Japanese tactics were like: individual combats with little large group tactics involved.

Blotto

"Speed is life." - Anon
"Sight is life. Speed is merely groovy." - "Junior"

DangerForward
02-06-2004, 10:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tttiger:
My uncle was a Jug pilot in the 9th Air Force. He also was Jewish. I guarantee you he loved killing Germans. And he hated them until the day he died, about five years ago. He would not understand any of you in a flight sim who fly Nazi airplanes (and neither can I, for that matter).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My Dad got shot at many times by Germans, got hit once with a bullet and a couple of times with shell fragments, but he still doesn't have a problem with Germans. He thought the Nazis were pretty bad guys, but he also thought the ordinary soldiers were just fighting for their country. My Dad never really says anything bad about Germans, perhaps because he worked after the war restoring water and electricity to the civilians. If he saw me flying some German planes, he'd probably say, "Yeah, they did make some good stuff."

Bytheway he always thought it was the lack of women that kept them mean for fighting...http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

DangerForward