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SeekingSword
07-09-2015, 07:34 PM
It looks ridiculous and contrasts logical techniques such as the Mordhau (murder-stroke). There is nothing else to be said.

Weiss_M
07-19-2015, 01:44 AM
I'm with you, but this is a game. Unfortunately, it's impossible not to have some flashy moves. And now, Ubi, prove that I'm wrong so we can all be happy.

premiumart
07-19-2015, 04:38 PM
Are there spin attacks other than for finishers? I mean if its for finishers its ok right, since your enemy is already kinda dying XD

Weiss_M
07-19-2015, 04:44 PM
Yes, Warden's 2nd heavy attack involves spinning:

https://youtu.be/sp3NKQlJPuo?t=2m48s

UbiBooma
07-23-2015, 05:58 PM
I know that spinning is technically unrealistic but personally I like for there to be pleasant aesthetics in my games. When fighting looks like really fancy (almost like dancing but not quite), while still maintaining some basic elements of realism, it can really enhance the experience both from a gamer and observer point of view.

Deadshot.
07-23-2015, 07:44 PM
I know that spinning is technically unrealistic but personally I like for there to be pleasant aesthetics in my games. When fighting looks like really fancy (almost like dancing but not quite), while still maintaining some basic elements of realism, it can really enhance the experience both from a gamer and observer point of view.

I agree. It's certainly not taking away from my playing experience.

Solid_Altair
07-24-2015, 06:26 PM
Is spinning really such a "no no" in sword play? Like really extremely forbidden?

In hand-to-hand combat it has its risks, but certainly has its niche and is used for very good effects by some fighters.

Weiss_M
07-24-2015, 10:13 PM
In hand-to hand combat you can spin to make more powerful strikes with your body, like Capoeira does, for example. If the opponent attacks you you will receive a punch or a throw or something like that. In a swordfight, you are dealing with thin and sharp pieces of steel which can cut or pierce through flesh easily...

https://youtu.be/vY9APMJTwT8
and
https://youtu.be/u8ASbumbHUQ?t=1m21s

and why not:
https://youtu.be/xTWjJDh87SE

MisterWillow
07-24-2015, 11:10 PM
Is spinning really such a "no no" in sword play? Like really extremely forbidden?

In hand-to-hand combat it has its risks, but certainly has its niche and is used for very good effects by some fighters.

I'm not sure if it's the death sentence that some people are implying---like, if you spin, you might as well surrender, cause you're dead, because your exposing your back to your enemy, and that quarter of a second is all your opponent needs to cleave you in two, or run a sword through you, or whatever---but it is extremely situational.

The most obvious example of this is a dodge. A sidestep is fine and all, and is more accurate for a counterattack, since you don't take your eyes off your opponent, but a spin could be quicker. If your weapon is is pulled in toward the body, you also reduce the size of your opponents target. It could also be advantageous on the counterattack, since you can use the momentum of the spin into the slash. At extremely close quarters, spinning around an opponent's body can be extremely advantageous (and possibly disorienting for your opponent). I don't know if knives or daggers are going to be in the game, but that sort of thing would benefit them, as demonstrated in this video (at around 25 seconds).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TzdtyMC7ek

The other is a follow-up strike, in two ways. In the first, an initial strike from one direction (or a thrust), and a second from the opposite---watch the video of the fight knights (http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1214076-The-real-fight-knights) that MrJ0ker posted to see an example of this (around the 6:50 mark). The attacker thrusts with the edge of his shield and quickly spins to both reposition himself and slash with his sword---and there are at least three other similar spins in that video, including one involving a kick. The second is related to the dodge, in that, you could strike initially, and use the momentum of the strike to spin quickly and perform a second attack in the same direction, which is how it seems to be used in the gameplay we've seen. It's readable, but it has the potential to catch an opponent off-guard; and if the initial strike was strong enough to stagger an opponent, the second might be difficult to defend against (again, per gameplay, it seems a follow-up strong attack, so it makes some sense).

A spin being tied to an execution manoeuvre, in my opinion, is hardly cause for concern, though, since (as someone pointed out) you've already defeated your opponent.


In hand-to hand combat you can spin to make more powerful strikes with your body, like Capoeira does, for example. If the opponent attacks you you will receive a punch or a throw or something like that. In a swordfight, you are dealing with thin and sharp pieces of steel which can cut or pierce through flesh easily...

Which is a moot point when you're fighting an opponent in full armour.

Weiss_M
07-25-2015, 12:00 AM
So we're not talking about spinning being the agile lightly armoured warrior, we're talking about spinning while wearing full plate armour. Seriously? We could discuss the first scenario, but the second? Moving normal-speed in such a bulky armour must be already difficult, and remember the type of helmet they wore. It must be difficult enough to track the enemy looking straight at him and be aware of your surroundings wearing those. Knights didn't even need a shield because the enemy weapon would bounce off, why would they need to spin to dodge a blow?

If you meant this: https://youtu.be/IV3yvOkooYA?t=6m53s
The red warrior didn't spin because it was part of his plan. He wanted to punch the black one and this one side-stepped, making the red one lose his balance. The red warrior had to spin because he made a mistake. I think we are talking about spinning deliberately, not because of mistakes.

MisterWillow
07-25-2015, 02:56 AM
So we're not talking about spinning being the agile lightly armoured warrior, we're talking about spinning while wearing full plate armour. Seriously? We could discuss the first scenario, but the second? Moving normal-speed in such a bulky armour must be already difficult,

Armour is not bulky, nor is it cumbersome. Soldiers needed to wear it for hours at a time, in battle, on horseback, rolling, jumping, etc. etc. They needed full range of motion in order to fight effectively. Part of the reason a suit of armour was so expensive was because it was crafted to the measurements of the person it was being made for---like a tailor-made suit---so that its wearer could have full mobility.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1YEkuWYUKM


and remember the type of helmet they wore. It must be difficult enough to track the enemy looking straight at him and be aware of your surroundings wearing those.

You could have a point here, depending on the helmet design. Most helmet designs were fairly open, allowing for a full field of view, minus the wider periphery. They weren't like putting on horse blinders, again, because they needed situational awareness in battle. If you could only see ten degrees in front of you, and the army you were attacking survived your initial charge, you'd be screwed in a melee (the only sorts of helmets that limited your view that much were jousting helmets, since you only needed to see the guy charging (almost) directly at you. Even the slit helmet the Warden is wearing in gameplay has a fairly wide viewing arch, you just couldn't look down (not that you generally would need to).


Knights didn't even need a shield because the enemy weapon would bounce off, why would they need to spin to dodge a blow?

Blunt force trauma. There's a reason that war hammers, maces, morning stars, and flails were invented: to crush the bones of the person inside the armour. It's also the reason half-swording and the Mordhau-method of sword-fighting a person in full-plate was developed. All the energy that is exerted on your impenetrable outer-skin doesn't immediately dissipate, it travels through the body underneath, and you can crack a skull or snap and arm even if it's covered in plate because of that energy transfer.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vi757-7XD94



If you meant this: https://youtu.be/IV3yvOkooYA?t=6m53s
The red warrior didn't spin because it was part of his plan. He wanted to punch the black one and this one side-stepped, making the red one lose his balance. The red warrior had to spin because he made a mistake. I think we are talking about spinning deliberately, not because of mistakes.

It was an adaptation as a result of circumstance---in this case an opponent's side-step. Rather than turn to face his opponent, he saw the direction his opponent stepped and made a move to intercept him. Here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IV3yvOkooYA&feature=youtu.be&t=9m36s) is another instance of that. Here (https://youtu.be/IV3yvOkooYA?t=9m58s) is an example of a more deliberate spin (at least it looks it from that angle, but it could be another simple intercept), Here (https://youtu.be/IV3yvOkooYA?t=12m15s) is the most deliberate---even though he completely flubs it. The last one is the closest either of them come to being off-balance, and he recovers quickly.

For the record, I'm not saying that spins should be incorporated into most move sets---and they haven't, there's only two instances: the follow up overhead heavy attack and an execution---or that they have a bigger presence in combat to make it flashier, or anything (they're pretty good at the level they are now). I'm just saying there are instances where it would be applicable in a fight and not result in your immediate defeat, so there's no reason to get upset when you see a combat spin.

Weiss_M
07-25-2015, 05:26 AM
OK, I thought that full plate armour was bulkier (though remember it weights more than 15kg/33lbs), but still, full mobility doesn't imply speed. In order to make a spin effective you have to be extremely quick, or you risk failing (like all the attempts to spin you linked. One of them, by the way, resulted in a slash in the face).

An interesting link about helmet designs: http://www.medievalwarfare.info/photos/helms.jpg
Found in http://www.medievalwarfare.info/armour.htm

I know blunt weapons were designed to fight knigths, but again, if you spin wearing this kind of armour and your opponent is wielding a war hammer, instead of a slash in the face you will end up with a blow in the skull.

I'm starting to think that this batlle isn't representative of real swordsmanship. The stance is awful, and the footwork is non-existing.
Look the feet of these two practitioners: https://youtu.be/QsAxVv5fbe8

MisterWillow
07-25-2015, 07:23 AM
OK, I thought that full plate armour was bulkier (though remember it weights more than 15kg/33lbs), but still, full mobility doesn't imply speed. In order to make a spin effective you have to be extremely quick, or you risk failing (like all the attempts to spin you linked. One of them, by the way, resulted in a slash in the face).

I repeat, a spin is extremely situational. A fighter could go a hundred fights without the need or opportunity to perform one, and, as you've implied (and demonstrated by the fighters), if you mess it up, it could be disastrous (though I contend at least two of them seen there were executed at least moderately well). It wasn't/isn't a common battlefield tactic---it's rather unorthodox---but because of that, it could be used in a clench moment to catch an opponent off-guard.

But again, it isn't featured prominently in the gameplay---the follow-up attack to the overhead strong attack, and as part of an execution are the only instances---so I don't think it's something to get upset about. And if people are getting upset by its very presence, I think it would be important to remember that this isn't trying to be a medieval simulation (presence of realistic sword techniques notwithstanding), so a little bit of leeway should be given to elements that are put in there just to obey the rule of cool, provided that those elements don't become the prominent elements to the point that it eventually becomes Shadow Warrior (even though I'm really excited about Shadow Warrior 2).


An interesting link about helmet designs: http://www.medievalwarfare.info/photos/helms.jpg
Found in http://www.medievalwarfare.info/armour.htm

Ahh, the bascinet... almost forgot about the good old pig-face visors. That would be the other major exception to the 'generally high visibility' point.


I know blunt weapons were designed to fight knigths, but again, if you spin wearing this kind of armour and your opponent is wielding a war hammer, instead of a slash in the face you will end up with a blow in the skull.

True. The best instance for a spinning-dodge would be if your opponent is performing an overhead strike, so you spin out of the way, and use the momentum for a counterattack. Again, extremely situational.


I'm starting to think that this batlle isn't representative of real swordsmanship. The stance is awful, and the footwork is non-existing.
Look the feet of these two practitioners: https://youtu.be/QsAxVv5fbe8

I'll certainly grant you that. I think they're MMA fighters, and someone thought it would be a good idea to give them swords and armour.

Weiss_M
07-25-2015, 11:50 PM
True. The best instance for a spinning-dodge would be if your opponent is performing an overhead strike, so you spin out of the way, and use the momentum for a counterattack. Again, extremely situational.
Exactly, specially if the enemy overswings.


I'll certainly grant you that. I think they're MMA fighters, and someone thought it would be a good idea to give them swords and armour.
That's what I thought. It's kind of amusing, though.

Ascendance_fr
08-13-2015, 02:15 PM
Ok, so the last 10 posts or so are basically people sharing what they know or discovered, sharing links and everything for a game just for the sake a good discussion. *_*
This post isn't meant to further the discussion but I find quite amazing that this game fostered quickly such a dedicated community, either knowledgeable or wiling to learn more about real sword fighting. I know this is the beginning, but still ^^ (And it's done without trash talk or insult!)

And I thought that was an idea worth sharing ;-)

Very interesting links up there, thank you everyone! :-)

KemetBrotha17
09-18-2015, 11:47 AM
I know that spinning is technically unrealistic but personally I like for there to be pleasant aesthetics in my games. When fighting looks like really fancy (almost like dancing but not quite), while still maintaining some basic elements of realism, it can really enhance the experience both from a gamer and observer point of view.

Thank you!