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Storm_Bird
03-17-2004, 08:30 AM
Hi,
What do you think which cal. have the most efficient in a dogfight? 0.5, 20mm or 30mm?

In my point, 20mm MC is the enough to shot down every fighters, include the IL-2. When I fire a 20mm MC, the shake is not very big. Not like the 30mm MC, the 30mm MC such as Mk108 always make me lost the target. Especialy Mk108s on the Me-262, their shake, bright always make me miss in a short range between the target.

However, the 30mm MC's damge is very powerful, they can shot down a bomber with thin a few shots. With a same bomber 20mm MCs need more than 10 rounds.

http://http://www.52dby.com/non-cgi/usr/16/16_931_1.jpg

Storm_Bird
03-17-2004, 08:30 AM
Hi,
What do you think which cal. have the most efficient in a dogfight? 0.5, 20mm or 30mm?

In my point, 20mm MC is the enough to shot down every fighters, include the IL-2. When I fire a 20mm MC, the shake is not very big. Not like the 30mm MC, the 30mm MC such as Mk108 always make me lost the target. Especialy Mk108s on the Me-262, their shake, bright always make me miss in a short range between the target.

However, the 30mm MC's damge is very powerful, they can shot down a bomber with thin a few shots. With a same bomber 20mm MCs need more than 10 rounds.

http://http://www.52dby.com/non-cgi/usr/16/16_931_1.jpg

Dmitri9mm
03-17-2004, 08:33 AM
I definately prefer the hispano-canons of the Hurricane Mk IIc. Though the ammunition is somewhat sparse, those guns cut like a scalpel through the eyeball of a small child. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif

TgD Thunderbolt56
03-17-2004, 08:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dmitri9mm:
...those guns cut like a scalpel through the eyeball of a small child. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


EEK! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/354.gif



http://home.earthlink.net/~aclzkim1/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/il2sig2.jpg

Hunde_3.JG51
03-17-2004, 09:07 AM
Depends on the plane. For a good turning, maneuverable plane with ok speed I would prefer heavy mg's and 20mm's (spitfire, Yak, P-39, etc.). For a fast plane with good high speed handling I prefer the 30mm's one pass kill potential (FW-190, P-51, etc.). The late 109's for me are tough because while they are fast and have good low speed handling their high speed handling stiffens up greatly so its hard to get that killer shot in (though I'm not the most experienced 109 driver). A single 30mm is certainly preferable to a single 20mm for me at least, I just wonder what a 109 with 6 heavy mg's would be like or a P-51 with 30mm's http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. There were 190D models with 30mm cannons (the D-11 comes to mind), and to me that would be the ultimate killing machine in FB's, at least as prop planes go. For now its the A-9/R2 for me (2x Mk.108's though planes like the La-7, P-63, and Ki-84 are better IMO).

http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

Formerly Kyrule2
http://www.jg51.com/

WUAF_Boxer
03-17-2004, 09:08 AM
30mm's for sure. They make killing any target so easy. Just point and shoot out a small burts. Than whatch the entire thing blow up infront of you http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. That's why I love the A9 so much, the mk 108's are deadly http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif

Sgt.Aryan
03-17-2004, 09:40 AM
Hmm, I prefer the Jesus cannons the last Stuka has...

The big barrels with the funneled tips...

I've forgotten if they're 30mms, or 60mm, but they're big, and pack a punch.

One shot chops off a PE-8s wing, and sets the hull on fire.

JG27_Dacripler
03-17-2004, 10:14 AM
Agree the 20 mm may take a few more rounds. The ROF and your safety margin is better than the 30mm. Example: You take a a huge risk in pulling up to a bomber with a 30 mm cannon at .25 and unloading only to be suppressed by an anxious AI sniper! The 20mm is capable of damaging the Bomber at further distance and you are capable to see the tracers that are shooting at you.
The 20mm appears to be a safer alternative in taking out those bombers and gives me more pleasure IMHO knowing that it can be done with a smaller caliper.
I fly the 109's and it is rather fun to go in a earlier plane to strap on 20 mm's and have a go at the large bombers.. It also is pleasing to take an I16 and take down a HE111, Pe-8 or even a B-17 in some rare instances.
Which is better?? I love the explosions of the MK-108 which I cant deny but I understand the risk of pulling close and know it may be my last shot as the AI are just that good in this game.

Vladimir_No2
03-17-2004, 12:48 PM
The .30 is the superior weapon. Nothing can survive under the concentrated fire of 4 .30s for long.

http://ww1.m78.com/photo-2/scharnhorst.jpg
"Engage the enemy more closely" -Rear Admiral Cradock

Dmitri9mm
03-17-2004, 01:01 PM
In general the guns that are esiest to aim are also the deadliest. That's why I love the quartet of 20mm hispano in the Hurri Mk IIc, because the plane is absolutely stable when fireing, and of course they punch like a bayonet through the chest of a pregnant woman http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif

Teufel_Eldritch
03-17-2004, 01:07 PM
I use the 20's more often as they have longer range. True they aren't anywhere near as...single hit destuctive as the 30's but the 30's lack range. I would rather stand back a bit & shoot the AE from a farther distance. Just my personal preference. Not to say anyone else's is invalid or anything like that.

YANKEE ROSE
-----------
"For a world of happiness & equality is but a fantasy driven by men who envy the ruling class."

JG46_Max
03-17-2004, 01:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>... and of course they punch like a bayonet through the chest of a pregnant woman http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ugh! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/354.gif

JR_Greenhorn
03-17-2004, 01:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sgt.Aryan:
I've forgotten if they're 30mms, or 60mm, but they're big, and pack a punch.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
They're 75mm each.

Some of the Yak's have 40mm+ cannons, too. Personally, I prefer one 37mm or larger cannon to multiple 30mms or mixed 30mm & 20mm.

One can't deny the effectiveness of the Hurricane IIc's armament, be sure.

1.JaVA_Razer
03-17-2004, 01:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dmitri9mm:
of course they punch like a bayonet through the chest of a pregnant woman http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

WTH is wrong with you people? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif

But I think 50 calls rule in dogfights but you have to take extra weight and all into consideration

Kampfmeister
03-17-2004, 01:25 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vladimir_No2:
__________________________________________________ ______________________________________________
The .30 is the superior weapon. Nothing can survive under the concentrated fire of 4 .30s for long.
__________________________________________________ ______________________________________________

Vlad, I'm assuming you meant to say 4 30mm cannon instead of 4 .30 caliber mgs. which would take you forever to down another plane. Personally I'd prefer to have a quad of 20mm cannon. Overall I think they have the best combination of hitting power and rounds per minute fired. A good balance when trying to down either a fighter or bomber. The 30mm cannon is powerful, but you have to get in close enough to ensure you get a good solid hit, which can get pretty hairy when trying to down a B-17, plus you are very limited in the number of rounds you can carry.

I'll forgo the morbid comments on how well these rounds penetrate their targets.
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

Mitlov47
03-17-2004, 01:37 PM
I think the single 37mm cannon on the P-39 and P-63C is possibly the best weapon in the game. It's rate of fire isn't the highest, but doesn't vibrate much and doesn't have excessive muzzle flash. And it has tremendous kill power and very high muzzle velocity (so it's very accurate, even at range). Also, the P-63C carries roughly 60 rounds, which is an immense load. It only takes 1-2 hits to down a fighter, and even a "prolonged burst" only uses up 5 or so rounds.

---------------------------

(aka Mitlov on HyperLobby and Ubi)

P-38J -- "A Sorta Fairytale"
P-63C -- "Jackie's Strength"

Uh...
03-17-2004, 02:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JR_Greenhorn:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sgt.Aryan:
I've forgotten if they're 30mms, or 60mm, but they're big, and pack a punch.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>They're 75mm each..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, they're 37mm guns, powerful enough to make holes in the top of most tanks. You'll need a much bigger plane to equip it with a 75mm gun. There was a variant of the B25 that had a 75mm gun, which I believe was mainly used in an anti-shipping role. The Germans also played around for a while with Ju-88's, equipped with a 75mm gun, used in an anti-tank role.

On-topic:
Three or four 30mm guns for me, thank you, if you've got a plane that can handle them and they don't influence the handling too much. Otherwise, three or four 20mm guns would be the best alternative.

Vladimir_No2
03-17-2004, 03:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kampfmeister:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vladimir_No2:
__________________________________________________ ______________________________________________
The .30 is the superior weapon. Nothing can survive under the concentrated fire of 4 .30s for long.
__________________________________________________ ______________________________________________

Vlad, I'm assuming you meant to say 4 30mm cannon instead of 4 .30 caliber mgs. which would take you forever to down another plane. Personally I'd prefer to have a quad of 20mm cannon. Overall I think they have the best combination of hitting power and rounds per minute fired. A good balance when trying to down either a fighter or bomber. The 30mm cannon is powerful, but you have to get in close enough to ensure you get a good solid hit, which can get pretty hairy when trying to down a B-17, plus you are very limited in the number of rounds you can carry.

I'll forgo the morbid comments on how well these rounds penetrate their targets.
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Your assumtion is incorrect, the .303 is a terrible and deadly weapon capable of destroying its target in a matter of hours.

http://ww1.m78.com/photo-2/scharnhorst.jpg
"Engage the enemy more closely" -Rear Admiral Cradock

JG27_BLACKHART
03-17-2004, 04:50 PM
The 30mm was a big debate in early lobby day's about the effectiveness and accuracy.

30mm were not supposed to be used in dog fights but for bomber interceptions because the Germans were getting pounded before the battle for night bombing begain with 110's and other German bombers.

If I had to choose for the accuracy it would be 8 brownings or hispanos .. if I wanted the quick kill I would take the 108's or 151's

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hobnail
03-17-2004, 06:27 PM
I'd take a P47, rip out the brownings, and fit 8 Berenzin UBS 12.7mm

Just for fun, I'd like to see how that went in FB.

BS87
03-17-2004, 08:03 PM
20mm. They make nice little explosions, and do a good job at killing stuff, and every now and then you hit the fuel or a bomb, and it gives the 30mm "plane expodes itno ity bity pieces" effect.

http://www.geocities.com/bs87cr/Sigfinal1.txt

WUAF_Badsight
03-17-2004, 08:17 PM
i like to DF with 20mm cannons

they are better all round for landing hits

& you have to still be accurate with your limited ammo

30mm are for bombers or learners

A130
03-17-2004, 11:32 PM
Easy answer. When you care enough to send the very best, use a MK103.

Laserlike muzzle velocity (and thus, a straight trajectory and short flight time), acceptable vibration in most platforms that can carry it, and punch that's on par with the MK108. (Arguably better.) The rate of fire is slow, but this is not a burst weapon. This is a line-up-the-sights-and-give-him-one-in-the-wing-root cannon. Think 37mm, only better in almost every way.

MK108 is also very nice, but I find that I have to get very close to use it effectively. Fortunately, most of the aircraft that carry these are pretty good at getting close to other aircraft.

The IIb's quad Hispano arrangement is...well, it almost seems like it's better than it should be. In the uqiquitous BoB Hurri vs. 109 games that one finds online, this armament is absolutely ferocious; even one or two fuselage hits stands a pretty good chance of knocking a 109 out of the sky, and four of these puppies are going at one time with very little vibration. If I had to fly with nothing heavier than 20mm, I'd probably be using one of these. If we were hunting bombers, I'd DEFINITELY be using one of these.

As far as .50's are concerned, I only really like the Jug's arrangement of eight. It's definitely one of the (if not THE) most flexible armaments in the game. You can do almost anything with it, from strafing columns to shredding fighters, and from snipping the engine off a bomber's wing to hosing down entire sectors of sky with lead. This is a very good balance between RoF and ease of aiming with rounds carried per gun and effect on target.

The lighter stuff is very challenging to use, but the first time you knock down a Sturmovik with four .30 cal's and still have ammo left over for more fun, you realize why some people continue to fly with these guns. It's all about the satisfaction of a job well done.

ElfunkoI
03-17-2004, 11:42 PM
I like 20mm cannons, and as far as those go I haven't found a pair I like more than those on the Ta-152. High ROF, great trajectory, high ROF, did I mention high ROF?

"A6?http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Will be A6!"

Dmitri9mm
03-17-2004, 11:46 PM
WTH????
I haven't got AEP just yet, but I was absolutely sure the TA 152 was equipped with 30mm Mk 108???
Now I just can't follow any more.

Ankanor
03-18-2004, 12:39 AM
Dmitri, relax, the Ta152 Has MK108 AND 2 MG151/20. Use the 30mm for targets with more than 1 engine(except for the P-38. MG151 will do http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif)

O, how I want to hold you,
To feel your breath
And hear your laughter in my ears.
To look into your eyes
And see myself in there.
Caress you with my lips.
To hold your hands in mine
And find the hidden smile in your dimple
That makes you irresistible
And stops the breathing in my chest.
To be with you when you are weeping,
To wipe away the tears and take away the sorrow.
To watch you while you are sleeping
Like there is no tomorrow.

And with a tender kiss to wake you up.

Essen,23.02.2004 20:53

Mitlov47
03-18-2004, 01:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A130:
Easy answer. When you care enough to send the very best, use a MK103.

Laserlike muzzle velocity (and thus, a straight trajectory and short flight time), acceptable vibration in most platforms that can carry it, and punch that's on par with the MK108. (Arguably better.) The rate of fire is slow, but this is not a burst weapon. This is a line-up-the-sights-and-give-him-one-in-the-wing-root cannon. Think 37mm, only better in almost every way.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah, but you forget the two areas where the 37mm trump the Mk103: size and weight. The only planes to carry the Mk103 are FW-190 (one in each wing) and Go-229 (same). The FW-190 isn't agile to begin with, and turns like the Exxon Valdez with the Mk103s mounted. And the Gotha is a fantasy plane.

Now look at the 37mm cannon. What mounts it? The agile P-39 and the jack-of-all-trades P-63C. If you want to do anything besides B&Z, the P-63C will serve you far better than the twin-103-encumbered FW190.

Saying that a Mk103 is a better gun than the 37mm is like saying that a 88mm gun is a better tank killer than HVAR rockets. Well, true, BUT you can only mount one of the two weapons on a P-38. You know what I mean?

---------------------------

(aka Mitlov on HyperLobby and Ubi)

P-38J -- "A Sorta Fairytale"
P-63C -- "Jackie's Strength"

ulriktham74
03-18-2004, 03:24 AM
A few cents worth:

I always fly the Bf109G-6 A/S (1944) with 30mm nose cannon (Mk108) because it's a good blend of firepower and rate of fire. It blasts away like a MG. Dakka-dakka.
However it's not supposed to be fired for long since the recoil messes up the sight reeeal good (in real fly mode - in easy fly mode it's not bad at all). Remember it has only 60-65 shells for ammo. Get close and aim well...

However do not dismiss the Mk103 guns of Fockewulf A8 - they are long barrel antitank and antibomber weapons packing an eeevil punch. Blows up bombers and fighters alike in on shot. They carry a mix of armor piercing tungsten and explosive rounds.

By the way the Stuka Ju-87G has twin pods with 37mm antitank guns. Poom-Poom.

-----------------------
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sgt.Aryan:
Hmm, I prefer the Jesus cannons the last Stuka has...

The big barrels with the funneled tips...

I've forgotten if they're 30mms, or 60mm, but they're big, and pack a punch.

One shot chops off a PE-8s wing, and sets the hull on fire.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>