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XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 02:14 AM
In my opinion, nightfighters are a section of aircraft that are missing in IL2-FB. I think that if they were to be included, however, that it would greatly add to the realism of the Forgotten Battles experience, and even more cement IL-2 as simply the best WWII sim ever. Personally, the flyable nightfighters I'd like to see are the:

-Messerchmitt Bf 110 variants
-Dornier DO 317J-2 and variants
-de Havilland mosquito NF.II

Just a suggestion, what do you think?

Regards,
Luftwaffe 109

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 02:14 AM
In my opinion, nightfighters are a section of aircraft that are missing in IL2-FB. I think that if they were to be included, however, that it would greatly add to the realism of the Forgotten Battles experience, and even more cement IL-2 as simply the best WWII sim ever. Personally, the flyable nightfighters I'd like to see are the:

-Messerchmitt Bf 110 variants
-Dornier DO 317J-2 and variants
-de Havilland mosquito NF.II

Just a suggestion, what do you think?

Regards,
Luftwaffe 109

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 03:10 AM
While personally I'd love to have a go in the HE-219, the fact is that nightfighting on the Eastern Front was pretty crude.

JG54 had some night fights but the sky was so bright you could hardly term it "night-fighting".

The Russian night ops were usually carried out by slow planes operating at low levels and carrying operatives who'd jump into snow drifts rather than use parachutes. Sometimes they dropped them in straw-filled packing cases or sacks, sometime nothing at all! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

If you're hoping for a Western Front night-fighting war you'll have to hope Oleg makes that as one of his pay-for packs/add-ons. But it probably won't interest the Yanks too much as they did there ops by day, and the P-51 isn't radar-equipped. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Then again, night-fighting in WW2 has hardly been done, so it may well be a good case for a "Forgotten Battle". It's just it would have to use the Western Front and the US fans and UBI will likely only care for the day ops (as that was what the US did - the British were the night ones). After all, remember the US got FB 3 weeks before anyone else, so what do you think they want. Not areas that the US took (comparatively) little part in that's for sure. It seems it's all about what the US wants nowdays..../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

----------------------------------------

Beauty is only skin deep. Ugly, on the other hand goes all the way to the
bone.

Lt.Percy: "If we do happen to step on a mine, Sir, what do we do ?"
Blackadder: "Normal procedure, Lieutenant, is to jump 200 feet in the air and scatter oneself over a wide area."

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 03:55 AM
Owl_NZ laments::
- Not areas that the US took (comparatively) little part in
- that's for sure. It seems it's all about what the US wants nowdays... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Not exactly. Our Hobby here stores are packed with books and scale models of UK/German night fighters.

A much larger question:: what will the ace internet dogfighters do with this concept? I mean, the aces can't see their skins in External View, unless they collide over each other, trying to be the first to jump into a searchlight beam. Full Real.

Oh, and the muzzle flashes. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif Never mind, Night Fighters won't work for FB.

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 03:56 AM
Ya, damn Americans, all these Brewsters and P39's and P40's and P47's. I mean sheesh, what did these pieces of @#$% ever contribute to the areas modeled in FB or Il-2? Whats next to model, an A20 Boston? Or that scrap heap of a b25? Its really just sickening. I won't even start on the Hurricane or other RAF stuff that so insidiously slipped into this game about the Eastern Front of WWII, its a travesty.



(Please note this is sarcasm at its worst. I hope the irony is not lost on Owl, and maybe even contribute to his education in world history)

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 03:58 AM
DO a search for Target for Tonight, Luftwaffe_109.

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XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 04:39 AM
Thanks hobnail, apparently the site isn't working.

Anyway, I do think that there is room in the IL-2 sim for nightfighters. Simply because they are not normally a subject of sims doesnt mean that they should neccessarily be completly excluded from the game (as they were, however, a large part of WWII air combat).

I'm not neccessarily asking for a full nightfighter simulation/addon as I realise there needs to be significant interest in such an aspect for it to work. In fact, I was merely suggesting a few flyable nightfighters (Bf 110, Ju 88G, etc) for inclusion in the already extensive (but not yet large enough!) collection of aircraft.

Oleg decided to include the Me 262 in IL2, even though it is not completly central to single player campaigns, so I do not see why nighfighters shouldn't, at least, be considered for inclusion (by the way, I loved the inclusion of the Me 262 in IL2-FB and thank Oleg for this worthy addition). In my opinion, the more aircraft that are added to this sim, the better, whether they be bombers, fighters, experimental jets (eg Gloster Meteor), dive bombers, etc. Just don't forget the nightfighters for us nightfighter pilots, lol!

Regards,
luftwaffe_109



Message Edited on 07/10/0306:04AM by Luftwaffe_109

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 05:34 AM
Nightfighters are already included, IMO /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-2/102137/110night.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 05:54 AM
With AI, we have all the night fighters we could wish for. Those AI pilots sure devour their carrots.

Was the whole thing about Eating Carrots to make you see better put out by British to distract the Germans from thinking radar was making British pilots able to suceed? I heard that somewhere.

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 06:03 AM
LOL Nice point about the skins there LEXX_Luthor. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Thank you for your constructive input there ZG77_Lignite, However, I might point out that I am sitting in a room surrounded by books about WW2 (especially the air war), and have read a good many of them. I probably have as good if not a better grasp than you do.

I can appreciate that the P39, P40 and P47 contributed to the Eastern Front war. Likewise the Buffalo with the Finns.
What concerns me is that it appears everyone is trying to turn this into yet another Western Europe combat sim. There are enough already. The other theatres NEVER get a look in.

And it is not a bash on US equipment. The RNZAF flew P40s, F4U's (I hope they make it in since everyhing else appears to), and even P51's. I will fly the P51 on that basis. NZ pilots flew the Hurricane and Buffalo in Burma. Ditto there.

I am of the opinion that the stuff that should be there should be there only if it served on that front. I have no problem with those listed above. By the same token, I can appreciate that someone goes to all the trouble of making a model, that is at least period-specific (ie used in WW2), and would like to see it in so yes by all means it should be allowed in. I look forward to Gibbage's and others efforts and congratulate them on their work.

I just think other theatres and aspects of the war (such as nightfighting should get a look in). Unfortunately, the reality appears that they won't, which is a great shame IMHO.

----------------------------------------

Beauty is only skin deep. Ugly, on the other hand goes all the way to the
bone.

Lt.Percy: "If we do happen to step on a mine, Sir, what do we do ?"
Blackadder: "Normal procedure, Lieutenant, is to jump 200 feet in the air and scatter oneself over a wide area."

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 06:36 AM
Look guys,
It will depend on how far Oleg and team wish to go, they do not have unlimited time and resources.
I have no doubts they will go as far as possible with any Sim Series they make, for 2 reasons.
1. Money making potential to ensure 2
2. How many of us get to go to work and enjoy doing somthing like creating Combat Flight Simulations for World Wide following of Fans with unquenchable thirst for variety in these Sims, he he .

Look I totaly agree it would be great to have a Night Fighter capability, in FB, but first think how it could be implemented before just wishing for it.

For those who think it cannot be done, consider this, we already have an interface within the game, as an example consider the Bomb Site of the Heinkel that our Virtual Pilot has to use for Bomb Aiming within a Mission.

If Oleg got seriouse about implimenting a Night Fighter what is to stop him creating another interface within the game that has a screen on it that our virtual pilot looks down into, only instead of a Bomb aiming device, it is radar reading interface of some kind.

Then you would be talking about realism finding a target in the darkness in a Game with no Padlock allowed, for a Multicrew ME 110 as an example with Pilot and Radar operator /rear Gunner.

Theoriticaly you could find your opponent in total darkness in the worst weather conditions provided he entered your radars Horizon of Scan capability, the Radar operator giving the pilot headings to follow.

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 07:07 AM
Apologies Luftwaffe_109, I meant on the web.

<a href=http://www.nightbomber.com/>Target for Tonight</a> is a nightbomber/fighter sim in development by a small group of guys.

It's much more likely to provide a realistic simulation of the methods, planes and problems of nightfighting.

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XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 07:13 AM
I agree, nightfighters can, and indeed should, be done. They were historically significant and, with their inclusion, would add another significant dimension to this already great sim (just like the inclusion of flyable bombers already has).

Personally, I would like to see Oleg go all the way with this sim, adding as many flayble aircraft, maps, etc, (of ALL different types and forms) as humanly possible, lol. This way, he and his team can make this already great sim even better. Nightfighting is just one such area that I suggest could be added, although there are many others (more bombers, especially medium-heavy, more fighters, jets...), lol.

Regards,
luftwaffe_109

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 07:37 AM
To quote Oleg 8using my own words):

Nightfighter sim is not possible with current FB code and it wouldnâ´t be really worth a shot since the possible customer group is even smaller than for flightsims in general.

---------------------------
http://home.t-online.de/home/340045970094-0001/lwskins_banner_gross.jpg (http://www.lwskins.de.vu)
Historical Skins for Luftwaffe-Fighters

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 07:53 AM
Thanks Oz.

Don't read me wrong!! I wanna nite sim too! FB could easily handle night fighters against a small number of isolated British bombers converging on a target, while FB could *never* handle the huge formations of USA day bombers, along with countless escorts and interceptors.

Question relevant to Oleg's low altitude flight model::

Did the British nite bombers fly lower than USA bombers, hoping to depend upon nite for protection?

Reason I ask is because, really, expanding FB into other theatres of WAR involving high altitude combat will brutally expose FB's grafix Pancake Problem at high altitudes. FB grafix is for low level Eastern Front sim alone (maybe Med would work though).


Message Edited on 07/10/0307:07AM by LEXX_Luthor

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 08:22 AM
csThor wrote:
- To quote Oleg 8using my own words):
-
- Nightfighter sim is not possible with current FB
- code and it wouldnâ´t be really worth a shot since
- the possible customer group is even smaller than for
- flightsims in general.

Are you sure about this? I heard this another way from Oleg (first hand information /i/smilies/16x16_robot-wink.gif ).
The problem that exists with the current FB code is the inclusion of radar operators' positions etc.
But who says we have to have this?? What about a speech-based guidance of the guy behind you and the chaps on the ground?

I also disagree with the assumption that there was nearly no night-fighting on the eastern front. There was. Plenty.
Some all alone (i.e. by "sight") and later on led by mobile guidance units (on trains) on the ground.
To mention only one: Heinrich Prinz zu Sayn-Wittgenstein of 1./NJG100 had some of his score shot down on the eastern front.

I think that night fighting could be good fun in FB - although I must agree that skinning will be a pretty futile job... /i/smilies/16x16_robot-very-happy.gif
But on transfer flights by day (how exciting /i/smilies/16x16_robot-very-happy.gif ) you could see the eye-candy of the nightfighter schemes... /i/smilies/16x16_robot-happy.gif

Azi (official pusher of the night fighter idea with FB). /i/smilies/16x16_robot-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 09:17 AM
Thankyou for taking the time to clear that up hobnail, I must have misunderstood you. The site seems interesting, if a little bare at the momment.

In relation to nightfighters, I'm not suggesting a major addition to IL-2 FB, just the inclusion of several nightfighter aircraft (as was done with the inclusion of the Me 262). Some worthy inclusions could be the Ju88 C6 and the Dornier DO 217. I don't really see why it would be terribly difficult to implement a radar system at all in nightfighters (considering Oleg and his team's considerable skill in devising to seperate boomsights for the He-111 and the TB-3). The way I see it, the radar system could basically work along simmilar lines to the way bombsights were implemented.

The reason I make the suggestion of nightfighters for IL-2 FB is simply because I feel they will add overal depth and scope to this great game (as well as being fun and different to fly, lol). Personally, my favourite aircraft is the Bf-109 (could you guess) but I always love flying various different aircraft (for example, I was very pleased with the addition of bombers), and I think nightfighting would add immensly to the IL-2 experience.

Regards,
luftwaffe_109

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 09:33 AM
Luftwaffe_109 wrote:
- Some worthy inclusions
- could be the Ju88 C6 and the Dornier DO 217. I don't
- really see why it would be terribly difficult to
- implement a radar system at all in nightfighters
- (considering Oleg and his team's considerable skill
- in devising to seperate boomsights for the He-111
- and the TB-3).


Find enough sources to model Lichtenstein BC (AI-radar) correctly and I will model it for the game. Fair deal?

Ju-88 C-6 for FB:
http://www.kolumbus.fi/jan.niukkanen/c6.jpg



-jippo

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 09:47 AM
Nightfigthers? Hmm, wouldn't it be hard to dogfight in the night? And if it was just figthers against bombers, wouldn't it be a little trivial? Flying for 30min's to shoot down a couple of bombers? And wouldn't it be even more boring for the bombers?

Actually I don't know, try it, it might work out fine.

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 10:41 AM
jmmoric wrote:
- Nightfigthers? Hmm, wouldn't it be hard to dogfight
- in the night?

Erm thats why they made nightraids /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 10:54 AM
jmmoric, many of the German nightfighters we're bombers actually. The Ju-88, the Dornier 217, even the 219 started life as a bomber.

I think the only nightfighters in the war that were single-engined (thus fighters), we're the Defiant and the wild-boar Fw-190's. All the others were twin-engined (Mosquitos, Beaufighters (both bombers/strike a/c by trade), P-61, Ki-45). One exception was the P-38M variant.

Certainly there isn't much twin-engine vs twin-engine combat in FB at the moment is there /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif .

Guess we'll have to wait and see what Oleg (sorry - UBI)decides on.

----------------------------------------

Beauty is only skin deep. Ugly, on the other hand goes all the way to the
bone.

Lt.Percy: "If we do happen to step on a mine, Sir, what do we do ?"
Blackadder: "Normal procedure, Lieutenant, is to jump 200 feet in the air and scatter oneself over a wide area."

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 11:05 AM
Owl_NZ wrote:
-
- Guess we'll have to wait and see what Oleg (sorry -
- UBI)decides on.
-

You have to realise that if the sources are there, nightfighters can and will be made for FB.

Azi is making 'Uhu' at the moment and we are making Ju88 C6 without a radar as well. C6 can (and was) used as a nightfighter even without the radar, but we will put the radar in as well if there are enough reference to the technical specifications and operation (read: preferably at least a manual) of the radar in question.


-jippo

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 11:21 AM
Luftwaffe_109 wrote:
--de Havilland mosquito NF.II

I can go to the local air museum about a mile from
here and take photos of the cockpit if that helps!

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 11:23 AM
Owl_NZ wrote:
- If you're hoping for a Western Front night-fighting
- war you'll have to hope Oleg makes that as one of
- his pay-for packs/add-ons. But it probably won't
- interest the Yanks too much as they did there ops by
- day, and the P-51 isn't radar-equipped.

The USAAF did some operations in Italy with
Beaufighters as nightfighters.

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 11:24 AM
Owl_NZ wrote:
- jmmoric, many of the German nightfighters we're
- bombers actually. The Ju-88, the Dornier 217, even
- the 219 started life as a bomber.
-
- I think the only nightfighters in the war that were
- single-engined (thus fighters), we're the Defiant
- and the wild-boar Fw-190's. All the others were
- twin-engined (Mosquitos, Beaufighters (both
- bombers/strike a/c by trade), P-61, Ki-45). One
- exception was the P-38M variant.
-
- Certainly there isn't much twin-engine vs
- twin-engine combat in FB at the moment is there /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif .
-
- Guess we'll have to wait and see what Oleg (sorry -
- UBI)decides on.
-

Actually there were more single engine nightfighters. Remember that many obsolete models were relegated to night missions, such as the Fiat CR42, and Bf 109 also was used as nightfighters (or night attackplane maybe is more appropriate in the Cr42's case).

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 12:28 PM
Just found proof:

http://tonywood.cjb.net/

Watch the "O.K.L. Fighter Claims" - Wittgenstein's data (then for Stab IV./NJG5):

11.07.1943 DB-3
14.07.1943 DB-3
14.07.1943 TB-7
17.07.1943 DB-3F
18.07.1943 Mitchell
18.07.1943 DB-3P
19.07.1943 DB-3
19.07.1943 Boston
19.07.1943 DB-3
20.07.1943 DB-3
20.07.1943 Mitchell
20.07.1943 Mitchell
20.07.1943 TB-7
20.07.1943 TB-7
20.07.1943 TB-7
21.07.1943 Mitchell
22.07.1943 TB-7
31.07.1943 PS-84
01.08.1943 R-5
01.08.1943 PS-84
01.08.1943 R-5
02.08.1943 R-5
03.08.1943 DB-3F
03.08.1943 DB-3F
03.08.1943 DB-3F
05.08.1943 Mitchell
08.08.1943 DB-3F

See for yourself - as long as night fighting units were present (IV./NJG5 and 1./NJG100) there was plenty of night fighting through Schoenert, von Meyen, Lechner, Dahms and others. Wittgenstein alone had (at least - they're CONFIRMED kills) a score of 27 during his time in the east.

Azi.

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 12:32 PM
BTW - if the question should arise:

TB-7 equals Pe-8
PS-84 equals Li-2

Azi. /i/smilies/16x16_robot-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 12:38 PM
"between January 1943 and November 1944 more than 500 'kills' were registered [on the Russian front], with thirty crews being credited with nine or more successes. This was all the more remarkable since the overall strength of the Nachtjagd in the East was never more than a moderate on comprising some six Staffeln up to mid-1944, when around double this number of Staffeln appeared to be on hand."

-Mackay Ron, Junkers Ju88, Crowood 2001



-jippo

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 05:16 PM
- Find enough sources to model Lichtenstein BC
- (AI-radar) correctly and I will model it for the
- game. Fair deal?

I have some good sources......some pics how it worked and other stuff........

The best book about Nightairbattle

http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/3613018616.03.LZZZZZZZ.jpg


<img src=http://www.jagdgeschwader53.flugzeugwerk.net/diverses/falkster.gif alt="III/JG53" width="600"> (http://www.jagdgeschwader53.de)

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 05:40 PM
My german is not very good, but you could try me. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

You know where to find me if you feel the need to send reference stuff, don't you?


-jippo

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 05:48 PM
- You know where to find me if you feel the need to
- send reference stuff, don't you?

of course /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

<img src=http://www.jagdgeschwader53.flugzeugwerk.net/diverses/falkster.gif alt="III/JG53" width="600"> (http://www.jagdgeschwader53.de)

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 10:27 PM
What about a speech-based guidance of the guy behind you and the chaps on the ground?

BINGO!
You know what they say about when there is a will there is a way.
It means the radar operator in the Me 110 remains AI and can never be human, but it finds an alternative way to make it possible.
I guess you then have to figure how the speech pack would be enabled for when the night fighter has flown into an area where ground radar has no coverage, and you rely on your AI Radar operater to guide you in the darkness.

We have all seen how AI react to intercepting enemy planes when they get within a certain range, in total darkness in the nightfighter it would be the radar operator that reacts instead of the Human pilot.

Example of an on board AI Radar Operator speaking to the pilot of a 110.

Contact! Enemy bomber detected, turn to heading 240 degrees climb to 3000 metres.

( A couple of minutes later as the 110 closes)

Radar operator/ Contact! turn to heading 243 degrees, maintain altitude range 1000 m closing.

You would have to work hard on any speech pack made to allow for human pilots of Bombers taking standard evasive action manouvers at night, like changing course by a few degrees every 60 seconds etc.

XyZspineZyX
07-11-2003, 01:03 AM
Well, we know some elements of nightfighting took place on the Eastern Front, but compared to the West they were smaller.

However, this is Forgotten Battles. Who says that it can't be done. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Azi, & jippo I do look forward to the 88 and especially the 219. I love that plane to bits. And we are past due for a WW2 sim to use night-fighting (realistically). It's a pity Milch stuffed it the 219 up...

Hopefully Oleg will read this thread (open invite for a response here Oleg /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif ) and take on board our statements.

Olli72, yeah I seem to recall the 109's were in Wild Boar ops, thanks for that. I just don't/didn't count single engine night ops by things like Po-2's etc as they were "night intruders" or "nuisance raids", and not really "nightfighters". But it would add to the battle if say in the DCG they occurred and resulted in your mission occuring later or with less planes due to damage etc etc.

----------------------------------------

Beauty is only skin deep. Ugly, on the other hand goes all the way to the
bone.

Lt.Percy: "If we do happen to step on a mine, Sir, what do we do ?"
Blackadder: "Normal procedure, Lieutenant, is to jump 200 feet in the air and scatter oneself over a wide area."

XyZspineZyX
07-11-2003, 02:20 AM
Bump. This is really, IMO, a great idea.

I also agree there should be at least some nightfighters in IL-2. When talking bout single-engined ones, dont forget the Ju 87 d8 and Ju 87 D9, used to intercept low flying and low speed Polikarpov PO-2s biplanes on the eastern front which were used in nightnuisance missions. These aircraft were modified to fly with flame dampeners, cannon flash muzzles, and new exhaust pipes (not to mention the FuG 25 AI radar, a 16z radio device and an improved D/F loop aerial).

However, I believe that that aircarft would not be very fun to fly IMHO and I would rather see a nightfighter Bf 110, de Havliard Mosquito or a JU 88.

XyZspineZyX
07-11-2003, 08:03 AM
Yes, amazingly Bf 109s were occassionally used as nightfighters, for example the Bf 109 G-6/N (fitted with FuG 350 Naxos Z passive homing detector) and Bf 109 G-6/Y (fitted with Y interception system). However, if I remeber correctly these were primarily tasked as fast night interceptors, and were certainly unusual (in any case I dont think they would be quite as much fun to fly as the more "classic" night fighter, ones developed from twin engined bombers/destroyers).

Jippo01 and Aziraphale75, I'm glad you are trying to model nightfighters for IL2-FB. I think the Heinekel He 219 and the Ju 88 C-6 would make fine and enjoyable additions to the game.



Regards
luftwaffe_109

XyZspineZyX
07-11-2003, 11:06 AM
- What about a speech-based guidance of the guy behind you
- and the chaps on the ground?

Brilliant idea! Now, apply that to ground guidance to area of battle--during daytime like Flying Tigers did and did with only 500 million Chinese eyeballs on the ground and lots of telephones to the ground controller. FB is a total disaster in this area. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

I recall a story of 3 Soviet Hurricane pilots vectored by ground control to intercept a Fw200. They forced it down (or caught it landed I forgot, and basically "captured" the German aircrew who surrendered to the Hurricans above like those guys in Iraq surrendering to that drone, until Soviet soldiers took them prisoner shortly after. Or that's the story anyway. The sexy thing here is the ground control intercept even during daytime.

XyZspineZyX
07-11-2003, 11:07 AM
I would be very very very happy, if we get the He 219 Uhu.
If you can`t realize the Radar, than don`t insert the radar, but the UHU please(without it). It is a wonderful flyable gun-boat... ahm plane.



< http://www.Jg2001.de>
<marquee>
<img src=http://www.jg2001.de/download/bannerjg2001.jpg>

XyZspineZyX
07-11-2003, 11:09 AM
Luftwaffe_109 wrote:
- Yes, amazingly Bf 109s were occassionally used as
- nightfighters, for example the Bf 109 G-6/N (fitted
- with FuG 350 Naxos Z passive homing detector) and Bf
- 109 G-6/Y (fitted with Y interception system).
- However, if I remeber correctly these were primarily
- tasked as fast night interceptors, and were
- certainly unusual (in any case I dont think they
- would be quite as much fun to fly as the more
- "classic" night fighter, ones developed from twin
- engined bombers/destroyers).

Im not sure i understand what you mean since all nightfighters task was to intercept?

31. December 1943

On this day were "Wilde Sau" Geschwadern armed as follows:
Stab JG 300 - 3 Fw 190 A-6; I./ JG 300 - 4 Bf 109 G-5, 10 Bf 109 G-6 and 1 Fw 190 A-6; II./ JG 300 - 4 Fw 190 A-6; III./ JG 300 - 1 Bf 109 G/6.
Stab JG 301 - 1 Bf 109 G-6, 1 Fw 190 A-7; I./ JG 301 - 0; II./ JG 301 - 3 Bf 109 G-6; III./ JG 301 - 22 Bf 109 G-6.
Stab JG 302 - 2 Bf 109 G-6; I./ JG 302 - 4 Bf 109 G-5 and 27 Bf 109 G-6; II./ JG 302 - 1 Fw 190 A-5/U 8 and 1 Fw 190 A-6; III./ JG 302 - 0.

Bf 109 werent uncommon as a nightfighter as can be seen from these numbers, and many of them didnt have any additional radar/homing device either. Often only led by ground control and searchlights.

XyZspineZyX
07-11-2003, 11:52 AM
Olli_72, I did not mean to imply that the Bf 109 variant nightfighters were tasked with a different role from the "classic" nightfighters, as I understand it they had the same purpose as other twin-engined nightfighters (to intercept night bombers/nightnuisance aircraft).

Also I agree they werent uncommon, but as I understand it only the JG 300, JG 301 and JG 302 formed special units with the Bf 109 G-6/N nightfighter.

Im not sure that they mostly didn't have specialised equipment, could you provide sources? The final variant, Bf 109 G-14 was even equiped with the "Spanner" IR night vision device (although how effective it was I dont know).


Regards,
luftwaffe_109

XyZspineZyX
07-11-2003, 12:54 PM
I dont have any sources specificly, but remember those devices were rather mid/late war equipment,

1.#" The Naxos was a Telefunken passive homing device similar to FuG 227 the Flensburg. It was developed during the Sumer of 1943. Production began in the early months of 1944 and entered service together with the Flensburg and remained in use until the end of the war. " from this source: http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/7404/radars.htm

So if the device was produced in early 1944 and the units mentioned started b4 that (1943) they must have used bf 109 without it. And it mustve taken a while b4 it was used extensively imo too (if it ever was).

2# And also consider the Kammhuber Line: an extensive network of searchlights, radar and night fighters.Initially the Kammhuber Line was made up of
three zones or "boxes" 20 miles (32 km) long and 12 miles (20 km) wide running north to south across a part of Holland.

It wasn't until the British developed new tactics and used electronic counter- measures like "window" that the Kammhuber line became far less effective.

To combat the widespread use of Window it was decided to light up the skies as brightly as possible during an air raid. Along with the fires started from bombing this provided enough illumination to allow single-engine day fighters to attack enemy bombers. Above a pre-arranged flak free altitude usually 15,000ft (4570m) these fighters would patrol waiting to pounce on bombers now clearly silhouetted. Major Hans-Joachim "Hajo" Herrmann, a veteran of 300 bombing missions against England and Malta, initiated the Wilde Sau idea. In addition to the above tactics Wilde Sau were given a large degree of freedom in seeking out and attacking enemy aircraft.

Read more here: http://www.danshistory.com/ww2/night.shtml

I dont claim to know a lot just making feedback of the things ive read. As im unsure about the numbers of bf 109's wich actually had the Naxos Z i said "many" not "mostly" /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-11-2003, 04:15 PM
I would like to support the development of a sim that models the air war at night. I have several books on the night air war in the west. These include:

Night Fighters a Development & Combat History by Bill Gunston. Gunston is (I think) the best aviation historian and flew for the RAF during WWII. Probably the best account of the development of night fighters in the west. This is out of print but you can find copies using ABEBOOKS or bookfinder.com. I purchased a copy several years ago and paid about $35 but more copies are available now.


Nachtjagd: The Night Fighter Versus War over the Third Reich 1939-45 by Theo Boiten (this work was originally a dissertation for a PhD in history and is very good). In print and available from AMAZON.


Confound and Destroy, 100 Group and the Bomber Support Campaign. Out of print but available used. It has a lot of technical information on MONICA and other electronic devices (including radar).

CONFOUNDING THE REICH, Bowman & Cushing, Patrick Stephens Limited, 1996, new, 100 Group's job was to counter the German night fighter system, photos, 232 pgs.

I am long wanted a night combat sim. The western front is the place however and not the eastern front. One German pilot who transferred from the east commented that it was much harder to score victories in the east than the west. As others have pointed out, the war in the night air war in the east was relatively small scale with small and slow planes. The air war in the west was on an extremely large scale. The RAF suffered about 5% (perhaps a little lower) losses throughout the bomber campaign. I think they lost 102 4-engine bombers on the worse night. The complaint by the German was because in the east he had to fly around and visually spot the Soviets. In the west (at the time) the LW had developed a device that homed in on MONICA (a radar warning device fitted to the RAF bombers).

The best aviation novel of WWII is (IMO) "Bomber" by Len Deighton. It is a good place to start.

Other books include "Instruments of Darkness" by Price (which is a history of the radar wars) and "Most Secret War" by Jones (who was a physicist).

I would be happy to do some research on radarscopes and capabilities. The equipment would have to be simplified. If any of you have played the first Silent Hunter, the early scopes look kind of like the plots produced by the early model SG radar modeled in that sub sim. The circular radar plot that we are used to was not developed unit later in the war and was never developed (I think) by the Germans. Gunston does a good job of illustrating how difficult it was to read the 1940's AI radar.

Also, the Germans had radar as early as the Brits (so did the U.S.) but the Brits made much better use of radar and developed a much more effective ground control system. For example, the Germans used a system of GCI, which employed one radar for the interceptor and one for the target. Both were then plotted by hand on a big glass (kind of a table). The idea that the Germans didn't know about radar is a myth (Telefunken had filed patents in the U.S. in the 30's). However, the Brits and the U.S. made technical advances that the Germans had trouble keeping up with.

Lunstrom (I think my spelling is correct) also details the problems faced by the U.S. Navy in developing radar interception techniques for carrier combat in his two "First Team" books.

The night war in the east should be easy to model. Just take off at night and try to spot some exhaust flames.

But a night air war sim should be easy to do in some ways because except for explosions and flames, there is not a lot of external graphics (so we need cockpits and radar screens).

I have been following T4T and hope it makes it but I would like to see a commercial sim.

Michael

XyZspineZyX
07-11-2003, 06:01 PM
BTW, if I recall from some discussions from 4-6 months ago, Jippo was toying around modelling a Ju 88C-6a (day zerstorer), which could then be used as a base for the development of a Ju 88C-6b night fighter !

I, for one, could certainly use a twin engine heavy-zerstorer with 3 X 20mm cannons & 3 X 7,92mm MG firing forward. The paint scheme with the "fake" glass green-house nose of the Ju 88A series to fool Soviet fighters into thinking they would get an easy prey into a level bomber, until they meet the business end of the C-6a would certainly be interesting.

Cheers,



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XyZspineZyX
07-12-2003, 02:45 AM
Olli 72, if I remember correctly, the advent of radar devices such as the FUG 220 Lichtenstein SN-2 were also impervious to "window", and they entered production in September 1943 (considered the best airborne interception device of the Luftwaffe, though of course, not used by Bf 109 nightfighters).

I agree many Bf 109 nightfighters, especially during the early stages of the war, would not have used speciallised equipment, specifically because the first time nightfighter Bf 109s were used was in IV (N)/JG 2, Gardemoen, in 1940. Airborne interception radars would have begun to extensivly appear in nightfighters only by Spring 1943. However, I doubt that it would be as fun flying early war Bf 109 nightfighters as they would essentially be just Bf 109-Ds flying at night. What would be most fun would be flying aircraft such as the Ju 88 C6, Do 217, He 219 or de Havilland Mosquito nightfighters with speciallised equipment (although I realise that finding information to model such aircraft, specifically AI radar, is difficult!).

GMichaelP, I'm glad that more and more people are agreeing that nightfighters would be a good addition to IL2-FB. Personally, I can't wait to try one (maybe the Ju 88 C6)!


Regards,
luftwaffe_109

XyZspineZyX
07-12-2003, 02:52 AM
Info on German radar.

http://www.ahost4u.com/~pauke/technology/radars.html

The Fw190 was fitted with AI radar (Neptun FuG216, 217). It was mounted to the left of the Revi's mount. FuG 218 was also fitted.

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/crandall-stormclouds2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-12-2003, 03:10 AM
MiloMorai, thats quite an excellent source.

In fact, one nightfighter ace Oberleutnant Hans Krause gained 28 kills with the Fw 190 A6/R11 of 1./NJG 10 (if I'm not mistaken.)

Regards,
luftwaffe_109

XyZspineZyX
07-12-2003, 03:33 AM
With regards to this - My suggestion, which is not meant to be rude, is take up modelling and do it yourself.

I'm certainly not telling you to "quite whining", what I would like to point out though is that the 3rd party modellers which are currently working very hard at doing this often thankless, and always (for this game atleast) payless job. The aircraft that you see are "westernizing" the Simulation are not being developed by Oleg Maddox and Crew, they are being created by dedicated modellers, who log onto this forum everyday to read about how their work should be "screwed" and they should focus more on aircraft that they either a) Personally have no interest in modelling or b) Have no reference material with which to model whatever it is aircraft that being whined for now.

Here are some simple facts which can help those who worry about the inflow of models that they apparently don't like:

1) In the mission editer you can select plane sets for your missions.

2) In the QMB and in the Campaign game you are capable of selecting your aircraft, thusly, you are in no way obligated to fly these added aircraft.

4) Unless you play online, you are not at all obligated to even download the patches that contain said aircraft. If you do play online, you have a choice of LOTS of servers on which to fly, which will more than likely inform you of the planeset before you join. Therefor, except for in screen shots, you don't even have to ever look at the planes being included.

5) Most importantly, someone has taken the time out of their day to model aircraft, because they love aircraft, and they love this game. There are many people who also love aircraft, and love these particular aircraft, who are going to recieve them for free. These modellers are not being paid with anything except for our gratitude and the occasional "/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif OMG what an awesome model!!"

I encourage everyone to go over to the Il2 Center forums and, if there is any aircraf that you're interested in having included in FB, posting a POLITE request, that "Gee gosh Mr/Mrs modeller, it sure would be swell if maybe when you have some free time, if you could model XXXX plane. In order to help you in doing this, I will email you photos/drawings of the XXXXX."


Luftwaffe_109 wrote:
- Thankyou for taking the time to clear that up
- hobnail, I must have misunderstood you. The site
- seems interesting, if a little bare at the momment.
-
- In relation to nightfighters, I'm not suggesting a
- major addition to IL-2 FB, just the inclusion of
- several nightfighter aircraft (as was done with the
- inclusion of the Me 262). Some worthy inclusions
- could be the Ju88 C6 and the Dornier DO 217. I don't
- really see why it would be terribly difficult to
- implement a radar system at all in nightfighters
- (considering Oleg and his team's considerable skill
- in devising to seperate boomsights for the He-111
- and the TB-3). The way I see it, the radar system
- could basically work along simmilar lines to the way
- bombsights were implemented.
-
-
- The reason I make the suggestion of nightfighters
- for IL-2 FB is simply because I feel they will add
- overal depth and scope to this great game (as well
- as being fun and different to fly, lol). Personally,
- my favourite aircraft is the Bf-109 (could you
- guess) but I always love flying various different
- aircraft (for example, I was very pleased with the
- addition of bombers), and I think nightfighting
- would add immensly to the IL-2 experience.
-
-
- Regards,
- luftwaffe_109

:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+

"Flying is more than a sport and more than a job; flying is pure passion and desire, which fill a lifetime."

RAF74_JazzMan
RAF No.74 Squadron
http://www.aircombat.ca/RAF74/

http://www.hotel.wineasy.se/ipms/photos/profile_74sqn_06.gif


"Individual victories in the air should be subordinate to the overall sucess of the group....The most important principle is to insure that those under you feel that their commander understands their worries; that the commander can be approached by anyone in the group; that what he demands of the group is necessary, and that you would never demand of them more that what you are willing to demand of yourself."

:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+

XyZspineZyX
07-12-2003, 06:03 PM
Jippo,

Did not know you were already that far on the C-6. Any chance of getting a C-6a heavy-destroyer for daytime ground attack first while the community is gathering modelling info on the radar for the C-6b night figher ??

Can we expect the A-4 & A-4 "field mod" in the first patch ?? or second...

Thanks for your efforts !

Regards,

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XyZspineZyX
07-12-2003, 10:38 PM
One thing I'd like to see changed though:

I want to get rid of the sun during the night. It's a very annoying little thing when doing nightfighting to see a light yellow band just as if the sun is just behind the horizon at midnight. (unless you're flying somewhere close to one of the polar zones)

http://picserver.student.utwente.nl/getpicture.php?id=17231
visit the 17th (http://ocf81.tripod.com/)


"If the radiance of a thousand suns

Were to burst at once into the sky

That would be like the splendor of the Mighty one...

I am become Death

The shatterer of Worlds.

" Bhagavad Gita

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 03:05 AM
Bf110G night pilot....

---> http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/2072/thun.html

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 06:24 AM
Look up the German "Wild Sau" tactics, developed after the British attack on Hamberg and there are your nightfighters.

Prof.Wizard
06-04-2004, 01:56 PM
Almost a year later, what's the situation with Night Fighters?
Are we gonna see a posh FuG any time soon? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

-----------------------------

Me-163's HWK 109-509 Rocket Engine
http://www.mihailidis.com/images/HWK109509.jpg

p1ngu666
06-04-2004, 02:28 PM
cr42, with lights powered by a lil spinning prop on top wing
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/me rubs xanity http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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Jippo01
06-04-2004, 02:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Prof.Wizard:
Almost a year later, what's the situation with Night Fighters?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://www.jagdgeschwader53.flugzeugwerk.net/ju88/ju88c6.htm


-jippo

LeLv28 - Fighting for independency since 2002
http://www.lelv28.com

Falkster's Ju-88 fan site:
www.ju88.de.tf (http://www.ju88.de.tf)

Zeroneg1
06-04-2004, 03:31 PM
Aside from radar and its associated implements in FB/AEP I think the biggest challenge is how to 'light' the night skies over the Eastern front. Most 3D artists relies on the use of the moon for this effect as a key light/main light in the scene and lots of blue and gray lights as well as brown lights but what if there is no moon? What if it is overcast? What about if the city below is well lit by fires and searchlights? That produces orange/yellow skies we all see over major cities. Hmm ok right there and then i think I was able to solve some of the very question I posted..LOL!!!

But me personally I want to see some night missions since it was an integral part of WWII flight combat and bombing.

[This message was edited by Zeroneg1 on Fri June 04 2004 at 02:39 PM.]

Prof.Wizard
06-04-2004, 03:33 PM
I'm aware of this project Jippo1 and it's great.

However, will it boast a working FuG radar? I don't think this only a modeller's issue, but it must also be programmed to IL'2 engine.

http://www.jagdgeschwader53.flugzeugwerk.net/ju88/Project/Ju88C6/observerc6.jpg

Is the radar screen that square monitor right of the artificial horizon?

-----------------------------

Me-163's HWK 109-509 Rocket Engine
http://www.mihailidis.com/images/HWK109509.jpg

Jippo01
06-05-2004, 02:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Prof.Wizard:
However, will it boast a working FuG radar? I don't think this only a modeller's issue, but it must also be programmed to IL'2 engine. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nightfighting doesn't require radar. Ju 88 C-6 (as you can read from my posts a year ago) were used as nightfighters in the East Front WITHOUT radar. Term is "Helle Nacthjagd".

-jippo

LeLv28 - Fighting for independency since 2002
http://www.lelv28.com

Falkster's Ju-88 fan site:
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