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View Full Version : hardcore and arcade mode.



SerWarhammer
07-04-2015, 01:37 PM
simple idea: arcade mode for noobs-player, and hardcore mode without helps like guards/attack markers. :)
http://static9.cdn.ubi.com/resource/it-IT/game/forhonor/game/aob_stance_gif_article2_208795.gif i don't need this :cool:

MrJoker.
07-04-2015, 03:11 PM
Inexperienced players will be chosen to play with like-minded, better players dealt with the better . I see no reason to enter different modes for different players.
What would rely on such a mode for inexperienced players? It was enough to hold the button corresponding to a block and it would suffice ? Each such type of game would quickly bored , even noobs.
Following is a matchmaker to solve such problems . To everyone could play comfortably and pleasantly.

SerWarhammer
07-04-2015, 06:53 PM
Inexperienced players will be chosen to play with like-minded, better players dealt with the better . I see no reason to enter different modes for different players.
What would rely on such a mode for inexperienced players? It was enough to hold the button corresponding to a block and it would suffice ? Each such type of game would quickly bored , even noobs.
Following is a matchmaker to solve such problems . To everyone could play comfortably and pleasantly.

if the devs did not put two mods means that they place only with the aid ..... and I refuse to play something like that! too easy after realizing how the fighting work. I do not want the guided help on the screen and if I fight with someone I want to be sure he did not have those.

matchmaker can help. good idea ;) but who decided how the match works?

Solid_Altair
07-04-2015, 07:03 PM
I agree there should be two modes: one with the UI assist and other without, even if it splits the community. I'm OK with both of them having HUD elements to indicate objectives, though. I do wish the targetting (lock) effect to be toned down... a lot. It has a huge visual polution right now and there is really no need for it... all that sacred light coming from the sky. It should be toned down even for the mode with the UI assist.

And an alternative to having two modes would be to only have online modes without the UI. So, the UI would be to singleplayer and stuff... while to venture in multiplayer you'd have to be good enough to play without the UI.

I wouldn't like such a hardcore mode to change the actual mechanics, though. Some games have hardcore modes that give players less health, but that sucks, because of how tthe breakpoints work. So... the hardcore mode definitely shouldn't temper with damage and health. The number of hits to defeat a dude seems reasonable in the demo we've seen.

MisterWillow
07-05-2015, 07:13 AM
Or they could put in menu toggles for every individual UI and HUD element, so each player can disable whatever they find distracting or unnecessary.

Solid_Altair
07-05-2015, 11:25 AM
Yes. But not enough.

Having a "hardcore mode" is important so that I can play without assists and only against other players without assists. I don't wanna play clean against a dude using the assist. This is very similar to the aim assist situation in shooters. Being able to turn yours off doesn't solve the problem.

Havemercy87
07-05-2015, 04:40 PM
I am down with 2 levels of difficulty in the multi-player modes. Of course if you wanted to play and not enough ppl were on for hardcore you'd have to bump down to assist enabled modes. But that the option is there would be nice..

Havemercy87
07-05-2015, 04:47 PM
Second thought(its a habit lol), another option could be, a team or a single player set up a match and get to pick assists enabled/disabled and other options for match, ie maps, number of AI units(dont know about this one, but I suppose it's possible). Again same with previous comment, ppl may not choose to play your match, leaving you to change it or play someone else's..

MisterWillow
07-05-2015, 06:08 PM
Yes. But not enough.

Having a "hardcore mode" is important so that I can play without assists and only against other players without assists. I don't wanna play clean against a dude using the assist. This is very similar to the aim assist situation in shooters. Being able to turn yours off doesn't solve the problem.

How is having an big indicator telling you which direction a strike is coming from similar to aim assist? The strike isn't being made for the person, nor would a strike be more likely to hit. They have no mechanical advantage, not even theoretically. The Art of Battle system relies entirely on visual cues, and most of the complaints I've seen regarding the UI is that it's too 'cluttered', 'busy', and most significant 'distracting'. Being used to watching for little arrows means you're attention is drawn away from other things; like a second enemy trying to flank you. More importantly, if you're accustomed to watching an opponent's stance---arm position, body posture, weapon angle---then I think you'll do just as well as someone who's waiting for a little arrow to scream "THEY'RE ATTACKING FROM THE LEFT!!!" In fact, you might even do better, because that person is essentially playing Red Light, Green Light, while you're observing the flow of traffic and can observe and anticipate changes faster.

Incidentally, I always turn my aim assist off and often play against people I assume have it on, and do about the same, if not better, because it always locks you onto the centre of a target, which generally isn't good enough to drop a player faster than someone who's aiming for the head, which is actually easier to do without it on.

TrikRisk
07-06-2015, 01:51 PM
I have an idea for this ... ill just make a thread for it, check it out

Solid_Altair
07-06-2015, 02:15 PM
How is having an big indicator telling you which direction a strike is coming from similar to aim assist? The strike isn't being made for the person, nor would a strike be more likely to hit. They have no mechanical advantage, not even theoretically. The Art of Battle system relies entirely on visual cues, and most of the complaints I've seen regarding the UI is that it's too 'cluttered', 'busy', and most significant 'distracting'. Being used to watching for little arrows means you're attention is drawn away from other things; like a second enemy trying to flank you. More importantly, if you're accustomed to watching an opponent's stance---arm position, body posture, weapon angle---then I think you'll do just as well as someone who's waiting for a little arrow to scream "THEY'RE ATTACKING FROM THE LEFT!!!" In fact, you might even do better, because that person is essentially playing Red Light, Green Light, while you're observing the flow of traffic and can observe and anticipate changes faster.

Incidentally, I always turn my aim assist off and often play against people I assume have it on, and do about the same, if not better, because it always locks you onto the centre of a target, which generally isn't good enough to drop a player faster than someone who's aiming for the head, which is actually easier to do without it on.
With all due respect, really... I think you're being romantic. Even after you learn to play without the HUD, its little white lines will help you to react a little faster. This stuff is common in fight games. There are some effects that help you to not only understand what's going on, but react more quickly. So it will be a form of assist.

And I suspect you're talking about auto-aim. Aim assist is a "stickyness" in the aim, but it doesn't go straight to enemy. And I think you're being romantic if you don't think you'd own people a lot more if they had their aim assist turn off, too.

@TrikRisk
It seems exploitable. I also think the casuals would rage about it even more than if you allowed no assist at all, in MP, but allowed it in SP, so they can get used to the game, before throwing themselves to the wolves. I definiretly could be wrong about this and it could be agood idea, since players would probably need to pay, if they wanted to exploit your system.

Maybe you should post your idea here. It's small enough. It would prolly be better to try to focus this discussion on this thread. Just my 2 cents. There are already a bzilion of threads about this. This one is thriving. So, lets use it as a good lobby.

MisterWillow
07-06-2015, 07:38 PM
With all due respect, really... I think you're being romantic. Even after you learn to play without the HUD, its little white lines will help you to react a little faster. This stuff is common in fight games. There are some effects that help you to not only understand what's going on, but react more quickly. So it will be a form of assist.

Which ones? I've never seen anything like an indicator of where an attack is coming from in the ones I've played. Most of the flashy elements in fighters occur once someone's already been hit, and that's obviously far too late to react.

And you can call it whatever you want, I'm just saying that other people have called the UI distracting (and I agree to a certain extent), and if that's the case, perhaps they would be the ones disadvantaged if both they and their opponent had all the various elements present. Regardless if there is a 'hardcore mode' or not (and I'm not opposed to one) the option should still be there for players to disable certain aspects of the UI in other modes.


And I suspect you're talking about auto-aim. Aim assist is a "stickyness" in the aim, but it doesn't go straight to enemy. And I think you're being romantic if you don't think you'd own people a lot more if they had their aim assist turn off, too.

That's even worse, because it lowers your ability to change targets if you need to.

As to whether I'd do better against people without assists, then it depends. If you're talking about people accustomed to having assists, then of course, because they're not used to steadying their aim, so they'd, in all likelihood, spray everything around me. If you're talking about people accustomed to playing without assists, then I'd probably do slightly worse (I'm only about average at shooters), because they're more careful, and they know how to calm down enough to stay on target.

All that is beside the point, though, because the UI elements in For Honor add or subtract nothing from the mechanics, they don't make the strike more likely to land, or make it faster, or anything. They're visual telegraphs of movements, and you can gain that information watching your opponent just as well as watching arrows.

Here, a screenshot from the gameplay video put out after E3:

http://i60.tinypic.com/2s0mxx1.jpg

Your opponent's head, arms, and upper chest, are covered in a big white arrow. It makes it impossible to mistake what's happening---an overhead strike is incoming.

Now, a screenshot of the gameplay show on the E3 stage, which had no UI:

http://i59.tinypic.com/vsm0bo.jpg

Same overhead strike incoming (it's a fraction of a second later in the animation), same motion, same readability at least, and I personally think it looks less cluttered. Given the option, I would turn off the indicators. I'm unsure if I would turn absolutely everything off. The health bars are alright, and how many points your team has is important, as is the feats you have at the bottom, but those strike indicators I would turn off without hesitation.

Also, if you watch the video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojFasaygBH4), you really get to see how exaggerated the strike animations are, and notice that all the strikes take enough time to execute for you, as a defender, to react. I really think the arrows are unnecessary.

But again, that's just me. Other people could be indifferent to them, or think they're helpful, or just like them. I would just like a menu toggle to turn them off, or even a slider to adjust opacity.

Solid_Altair
07-08-2015, 11:03 AM
Sorry I took long to answer. I actually had a dream about answering this.

Thanks for taking your time to make a detailed post, with pics and all.

The games that use flashy effects as visual cues... Dead or Alive uses an effect for the special attacks. Tekken uses it for unblockables (the effect is character specific). Soul Calibur uses it for a bazilion of things, lightning for guard breaks, fire for unblockables, wind for specials (similar to DoA), green light for "parries"... and there are the "on hit" ones. It may seem like an effect to tell you already hit the guy is useless, but in some cases it may help a lot with "hit confirm". You're suppose to continue some strings only if the early hits land as counter-hits. You can read this stuff without effects, but the effects help a lot in allowing you to react more quickly. Golden lights are for normal hits and red lights arre for counter hits. This helps a lot in quickly deciding whether or not to continue a string, or which combo you should use from such point.

So... even for a player who got used to reading the stances, the UI would help with faster reactions. You can do anything without it. It won't make attacks more likely to land, etc. But when added on top of the animations, they facilitate the reflexes... if what happens in fight games is any clue.

I'm glad you're familiar with fight games, btw. We need to draw the Devs attention to frame advantage, in case they're not already on it.

MisterWillow
07-08-2015, 07:30 PM
Sorry I took long to answer. I actually had a dream about answering this.

Thanks for taking your time to make a detailed post, with pics and all.

The games that use flashy effects as visual cues... Dead or Alive uses an effect for the special attacks. Tekken uses it for unblockables (the effect is character specific). Soul Calibur uses it for a bazilion of things, lightning for guard breaks, fire for unblockables, wind for specials (similar to DoA), green light for "parries"... and there are the "on hit" ones. It may seem like an effect to tell you already hit the guy is useless, but in some cases it may help a lot with "hit confirm". You're suppose to continue some strings only if the early hits land as counter-hits. You can read this stuff without effects, but the effects help a lot in allowing you to react more quickly. Golden lights are for normal hits and red lights arre for counter hits. This helps a lot in quickly deciding whether or not to continue a string, or which combo you should use from such point.

So... even for a player who got used to reading the stances, the UI would help with faster reactions. You can do anything without it. It won't make attacks more likely to land, etc. But when added on top of the animations, they facilitate the reflexes... if what happens in fight games is any clue.

I'm glad you're familiar with fight games, btw. We need to draw the Devs attention to frame advantage, in case they're not already on it.

Everything aside from the unblockable cues are there to facilitate the attacker, not the defender---knowing if your hit landed, if you can follow up a combo. It doesn't help the defender at all.

Solid_Altair
07-09-2015, 01:45 PM
Unblockable, Guard Breaks and Specials.

But yup. Some of them help the attacker. My point is that they're all visual cues to help players react more quickly. Even the attackers must react appropriately.

MisterWillow
07-09-2015, 05:59 PM
Unblockable, Guard Breaks and Specials.

But yup. Some of them help the attacker. My point is that they're all visual cues to help players react more quickly. Even the attackers must react appropriately.

But everything we've been talking about was about defenders, I thought (it's all I've been talking about anyway), since all the arrows are giant signs telling the person being attacked which direction the attack is coming from.

There's barely any visual aid for the attacker. The only thing I can see is a tiny semi-circle telling you which direction you're opponent has his sword positioned prior to attack, and again, I think that it's unnecessary since you can just look at your opponents hands and weapon, which is barely a quarter of an inch away.

Solid_Altair
07-10-2015, 07:47 PM
Yes. The UI in For Honor definitely helps defending more than attacking.

DarkHeavenSoul05
07-17-2015, 11:53 AM
It doesn't need that, according to some reviews the tutorial mode is very simple and you'll be able to master the art of battle after the tutorial.
This includes reading the enemy and such. The pic you added must be a replay that's why you can see the indicator, not so sure.

KaiverLink
08-25-2015, 10:40 AM
Yes. But not enough.

Having a "hardcore mode" is important so that I can play without assists and only against other players without assists. I don't wanna play clean against a dude using the assist. This is very similar to the aim assist situation in shooters. Being able to turn yours off doesn't solve the problem.

I fully support each word. That's a great idea!
Read enemy movement without hints interface - a real art of combat for the players who want to show their skills.

Maccaroth
08-25-2015, 01:41 PM
I doubt we'll get a separate mode. Most likely it'll be limited to some UI options in settings that we can turn on and off. And, honestly, I don't think we need more than that. If people want to play with helpers on, let them. If someone doesn't want to use them, then he does not have to use them and show how skilled he is. I will be fine either way.

Warphorntek
08-25-2015, 09:56 PM
My words.

Zercon.
08-26-2015, 08:00 PM
it is pre-alpha they said that they will have more then 1 mode