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View Full Version : A question for all good 109 online pilots.



glottis77
04-13-2004, 03:55 AM
90% of the time i get shot down online is when a 109 is fighting vertically with me (i usually fly a P51). It often starts that we go head on and then it goes into loopings until i get "Death from above". I'm not surprised to loose a fight in the vertical against a 109K for an instance, so I decided to try it myself. To my astonishment I was outclimed by almost everything when I was in the 109K. So I wonder how you guys set your engine, flaps etc. when you are doing BnZ maneuvers. I'd also be grateful for some information un correct spiral climbing. Please always include info about how you set your plane. Thanks a lot.

glottis77
04-13-2004, 03:55 AM
90% of the time i get shot down online is when a 109 is fighting vertically with me (i usually fly a P51). It often starts that we go head on and then it goes into loopings until i get "Death from above". I'm not surprised to loose a fight in the vertical against a 109K for an instance, so I decided to try it myself. To my astonishment I was outclimed by almost everything when I was in the 109K. So I wonder how you guys set your engine, flaps etc. when you are doing BnZ maneuvers. I'd also be grateful for some information un correct spiral climbing. Please always include info about how you set your plane. Thanks a lot.

AirBot
04-13-2004, 04:36 AM
109s are apparently extremely good climbers under manual prop pitch control.
I myself have never been able to master the technique, as it is very easy to fry your powerplant that way, but I'm sure there are many 109 drivers who can give you more details.

CaptainGelo
04-13-2004, 04:39 AM
set + and - prop.pitch where u can use them all the time, fast set it to manual and keep it on 3000RPM , and listen how it sounds, so later u dont have to look at your RPM all the time...http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://img23.photobucket.com/albums/v68/wolf4ever/Animation3.gif
"Big Bills suck, small Bills don't"<----WRONG!!!! all Bills suck http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

JtD
04-13-2004, 04:41 AM
1st: start your engine
2nd: engage MW50
3rd: set radiotors to closed or open 2 (low drag config)
4th: slam throttle to 110%
5th: climb like a rocket
6th: as the engine overheats, go back to 99%
7th: cruise and look for enemies while your engine is not overheated
8th: spot an enemy, slam throttle to 110% and shot him down while your engine overheats
9th: open rad, reduce throttle, cool down
10th: close rad
11th: repeat from 7th

Nothing exceptional, but works fairly well.

You can also start playing with manual prop pitch, but in most cases that is not necessary.

Billy_BigBoy
04-13-2004, 05:06 AM
Most of the time I was downed by a 109, he came from above and left back up there. The 109's i've downed where the one I took by complete surprise.
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gifStill a long way to go to handle these planes...

http://www.forumsigs.com/users/Billy_BigBoy586/Billy_mod.jpg

KGr.HH-Sunburst
04-13-2004, 05:49 AM
talking about my bird of choice http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
manual prop pitch isnt necessary i only use it with the Emil ore the friedrich

JtD got a good description there
but i would say engage MW50 before you start your engine just to besure it doesnt go kaput
but i always fly with rads to 6 (depends on the map and distance to enemy)
dont use 110% to much i like to have my engine cool enough for the fight
when engaging an enemy go to 110% rads at 2 ore closed make sure you have alt in a 109G/K
when fighting in the vertical with a P51 use slightly positive trim (well it works for me)
but i dont fight 51s in the vertical to much i rather fight them at lower speeds and drag him in a turnfight.
some will say thats not a good idea
but IMHO the 109G is the better dogfighter at lower speeds and when you do use combat flaps
you will see the 109G beats the stang on the deck anyday

http://www.freewebs.com/fightingpumas/
http://img31.photobucket.com/albums/v94/sunburst/sig-97th.jpg

JG14_Josf
04-13-2004, 08:21 AM
IL2compare reports that the P-51D-20 slightly outclimbs the 109K4 from 500 meters to 4,000 meters altitude and then the 109K4 gains a slight advantage in climb from 4,000 meters to 10,000 meters altitude when both planes are at 100% throttle.

When both planes are at Max throttle, according to IL2compare, the 109K4 gains a significant climb advantage at all altitudes below 7,000 meters and this advantage decreases at higher altitudes.

IL2compare also reports that the P-51D-20 holds a high speed climb advantage at 0m.

The 109K4 has a short term climb advantage, a short term speed advantage, and a turn disadvantage.

The 109K4 pilot must learn how to use Wep, and or tactics to defeat a good P-51 pilot.

Here is an example of:
Energy Tactics (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/downloads/tracks/Energy_game.zip)

Taken from this page:
Eastern Skies...and the IL-2 User's Guide -Tracks (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/tracks.htm)

carguy_
04-13-2004, 10:39 AM
Pretty much everything has already been said.
I can add that the engine must be idle when enabling MW50.Also Me109 shows it`s claws at shallow climb at high RPM.Steep climb is too risky especially when your opponent is better in zoom climb.

http://carguy.w.interia.pl/tracki/sig23d.jpg

JG52Uther
04-13-2004, 10:54 AM
MW50.......start engine.idle,engage MW50.throttle up to 100% power and straight back down to idle,then just leave it on.if you switch it off,dont turn it on for 10 minutes.

mortoma
04-13-2004, 11:24 AM
I alway start up the MW50 just before an engagement. I simply throtte down and hit it. You don't have to turn it on at engine start up. I have never had any trouble doing it that way. I'm an offline player but they run the same way offline as online.

3.JG51_Stecher
04-13-2004, 08:46 PM
A lot of people seem to be much too careful when using the MW50 system. You don't need to do it with the engine off or at idle, or even a low or medium throttle setting. I don't know the exact procedure for real life, but in this game, you only have to make sure that it is engaged at 100% or lower. Starting with 101% throttle is where you run a high risk of engine damage for engaging the boost, because that is the setting at which it kicks in.
I understand that some like to switch it on at the beginning, not as a precaution, but just so that they don't have to do it later. Personally, I like to have that extra option of going to 110% without the boost for a little more power, but still not have the high stress on the engine, saving that only for real emergencies.

http://flygirl.dhs.org:8080/jg51/109sig.jpg


3./Jagdgeschwader 51
3./JG51_Stecher
www.jg51.com (http://www.jg51.com)

LuftLuver
04-14-2004, 02:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sunburst-97th:

you will see the 109G beats the stang on the deck anyday
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I get a wide grin when a 109 initiates a low and slow fight against my Mustang. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fehler
04-14-2004, 03:20 AM
MW50 is not a boost so to speak. It is a mixture of water and methanol that is used to keep manifold temperatures lower so that the engine can run for a longer time at a higher manifold rating.

GM-1 is a boost for high altitude fighting. (109 E-7Z)

I dont fly the 109 much because I hate the elevator response at high speed. But when I do, I use manual pitch to climb and to slow the plane down rapidly. You have to really watch the RPM's so you dont blow the paper Benz engine.

Turning with combat flaps is a useful trick, but also remember that the plane turns best about 100 KPH above stall. Of course differnt models fly a little different, and I admit I fly the 190 so much that I just dont know all the little tricks per different variant.

http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/FehlerSig.gif
http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/9JG54.html

BBB_Hyperion
04-14-2004, 04:02 AM
Believers of Il2 Compare can get surprised by correct cem management .)

Never saw a P51 able to climb away from an K4 except when it comes from higher e state.

Regards,
Hyperion

RdTimeTheCharm
04-14-2004, 04:41 AM
Yes, it might be that you bleed energy more than your opponents. Recommended reading some links above http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Another thing you have to realize with altitude difference, is that it is _relative_.
Meaning that a 100 meter altitude advantage is enought if your horizontal separation is 0 (directly above). But doesent mean anything if youre separation is 1 km.

So when flying vertical, you still have to focus on the horizontal separation as an multiplier fo r your energy calculations.

Kurfurst__
04-14-2004, 06:35 AM
+ to all that mentioned, it`s also a good idea to use 300 km/h climb speed instead of the "best" 270. The decrease in climb rate is not much, but it`s a lot better to start a different manouver from 300km/h, not the near-stall of 270 for G-manouvers. It also makes you extending faster from the e/ac in climb, and less vulnerable to others as well.

http://www.x-plane.org/users/isegrim/dasboot.jpg
Final shot. Prepeare to fire! Target speed: 0. "Check" Range, 650 meters. "Check" Depth: 4 meters. Torpedo speed: three-zero. Aiming point..forward of after mast.
Tube I., ready? "Tube I. ready!" Tube I....! "Tube I." Fire! "Fire. Torpedo running!"


Our Messer which art in Heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy moment come. Thy will be done in Earth, as it is in Heaven.
Give us this day our daily Abschuss.
And forgive us our Errors, as We forgive Your Flaws against us. And lead us not into Temptation to dogfight, but deliver us from Those Below : For thine are The Altitude, and The Climbrate, and the MK 108, forever and ever.
Amen.

F19_Ob
04-14-2004, 08:09 AM
I've tried to get the best out of the 109's since the sim got out.

I feel that p51d and bf109K are evenly matched on all altidudes.( I like the p51d too)

Like some other good pilots I know I'm a "random ace", extreemly good at handling, aiming and tactics one day and almost average the other. And as u know, in the mix of a furball it can go either way, regardless of skill.

The big drawback with the p51 is the unfavorable characteristics in speeds below 350km/h. On the otherhand the clear view and the sprayingcapabilities of the mg's are superb, and u can use them effectively at twice the distance of the 109 guns. Even if the mg's doesnt bring the 109 down immediatly from long distances it can easily cripple it out of fighting condition.

The biggest drawback in the 109s is the very poor view wich forces the pilot to learn imagination and try to "guess" where a tracked enemy will turn up in the field of view.
The other disadvantage is the great deflection needed for the guns wich means that 109 newbies will constantly miss bcause they are unable to calculate or make the hardest turns required, wich can only be sustained for a very limited time.
As I see it the best 109 pilots will be those who learn to keep the turn going in the slowest speeds.

Most 109 pilots can bounce and kill unsuspecting enemies. But If the bouncer is discovered most allied ac can turn out of harms way, unless the 109 is an ace.

When Im spotted in my 109 on my bouncing run and the enemy counter with a turn I seldom zoom up to hight. Instead I convert my gained speed to turningcapability, a single hard turn to get the deflection required, and normally I get the kill. I like that better than having an alerted enemy on my tail spraying at me.


In the p51 I try to use the longdistance spraying to its maximum and often score hits on surprised BnZ'ers in their climb to safety.


The thing I have concentrated on is to learn to fly my ac to the limit and practice deflectionshooting on long distances.


--------------------------------------

Complex engine management is unnescessary on the later 109's.
Radiator set to auto and fully open if overheated, like in real life.

I use combat flaps only when nescessary, when on top of a climb or when I need to bleed speed fast in a turn to draw deflection.

If there is only a few mins(4-6) to the combat I fly at 90% powersetting, if it is longer I reduce power to 70% or so.

I climb to hight over my airfield and try to reach 4000m depending on my mood.

Check 6 often with gentle turns, and even if u dont check make climbing and descending turns anyway on your rute to and from target.

Fly in pairs as often as u can.

Never give up even if damaged and outnumbered, just press on, if only to irritate your foes. It might give a friendly shooting opportunities.

U might want to peek at my tactics tracs from GreaterGreen online. I often have to battle the aces there.

a link to one of my rescent posts:
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=380104843


feel free to comment

cheers!


cheers