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FAB_Devil
03-06-2004, 09:34 PM
Oleg,

see these problems with altitudes. I reach 27350m with a BI-1 and 20400m with a Me-262A-1a. In my tests I use 50% of fuel, loadout empty and start at 10000m of altitude.

BI-1, 1942
http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/BI-1_1942_04.jpg

http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/BI-1_1942_05.jpg

http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/BI-1_1942_06.jpg

Me-262A-1a, 1944
http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/Me-262A-1a_1944_01.jpg

http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/Me-262A-1a_1944_02.jpg

http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/Me-262A-1a_1944_03.jpg

La-7, 1944
http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/La-7_1944_02.jpg

http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/La-7_1944_03.jpg

http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/La-7_1944_04.jpg

Yak-3, 1944
http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/Yak-3_1944_02.jpg

http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/Yak-3_1944_03.jpg

http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/Yak-3_1944_04.jpg

Bf-109G-6/AS, 1944
http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/Bf-109G-6AS_1944_01.jpg

http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/Bf-109G-6AS_1944_02.jpg

http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/Bf-109G-6AS_1944_03.jpg

P-47D-27, 1944 (this appear OK)
http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/P-47D-27_1944_03.jpg

http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/P-47D-27_1944_04.jpg

http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/P-47D-27_1944_05.jpg

P-51D-5NT, 1944 (is very difficult reach the maximum altitude)
http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/P-51D-5NT_1944_01.jpg

http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/P-51D-5NT_1944_02.jpg

http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/P-51D-5NT_1944_03.jpg


Thanks,

FAB_Devil
"Traidores e covardes no sero perdoados!"
FAB Brazilian Official Team - www.brasilfab.com (http://www.brasilfab.com)

Senta a Pua!
1º/1º Grupo de Aviaço de Caça Senta a Pua!
Os Jambocks

ICQ 38792295

FAB_Devil
03-06-2004, 09:34 PM
Oleg,

see these problems with altitudes. I reach 27350m with a BI-1 and 20400m with a Me-262A-1a. In my tests I use 50% of fuel, loadout empty and start at 10000m of altitude.

BI-1, 1942
http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/BI-1_1942_04.jpg

http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/BI-1_1942_05.jpg

http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/BI-1_1942_06.jpg

Me-262A-1a, 1944
http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/Me-262A-1a_1944_01.jpg

http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/Me-262A-1a_1944_02.jpg

http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/Me-262A-1a_1944_03.jpg

La-7, 1944
http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/La-7_1944_02.jpg

http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/La-7_1944_03.jpg

http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/La-7_1944_04.jpg

Yak-3, 1944
http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/Yak-3_1944_02.jpg

http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/Yak-3_1944_03.jpg

http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/Yak-3_1944_04.jpg

Bf-109G-6/AS, 1944
http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/Bf-109G-6AS_1944_01.jpg

http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/Bf-109G-6AS_1944_02.jpg

http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/Bf-109G-6AS_1944_03.jpg

P-47D-27, 1944 (this appear OK)
http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/P-47D-27_1944_03.jpg

http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/P-47D-27_1944_04.jpg

http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/P-47D-27_1944_05.jpg

P-51D-5NT, 1944 (is very difficult reach the maximum altitude)
http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/P-51D-5NT_1944_01.jpg

http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/P-51D-5NT_1944_02.jpg

http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/P-51D-5NT_1944_03.jpg


Thanks,

FAB_Devil
"Traidores e covardes no sero perdoados!"
FAB Brazilian Official Team - www.brasilfab.com (http://www.brasilfab.com)

Senta a Pua!
1º/1º Grupo de Aviaço de Caça Senta a Pua!
Os Jambocks

ICQ 38792295

Storm_Bird
03-06-2004, 09:43 PM
Service ceiling is diffent to the real ceiling. But the fighters cannot dogfight very well at 20400m.

http://www.moxing.net/ww2/plant/german/he162-4.jpg

Fillmore
03-06-2004, 09:53 PM
I'm not sure what your point is, or why you havn't read Oleg state several times that there is a limitation of the game engine. Atmosphere above 10000m is identical to 10000m no matter how high you go. Below 10000m the air is defferent as altitude changes, but above 10000m the air no longer changes, it is still as it is at 10000m. It is an inherent limitation of the engine and that is the end of it. If you want realistic modelling of altitudes greater than 10000m you have to wait for the next sim.

FAB_Devil
03-06-2004, 10:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fillmore:
I'm not sure what your point is, or why you havn't read Oleg state several times that there is a limitation of the game engine. Atmosphere above 10000m is identical to 10000m no matter how high you go. Below 10000m the air is defferent as altitude changes, but above 10000m the air no longer changes, it is still as it is at 10000m. It is an inherent limitation of the engine and that is the end of it. If you want realistic modelling of altitudes greater than 10000m you have to wait for the next sim.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK! I am only reporting a problem!

I don't understand why in this forum always have guys which always discord of anyone which want help!

I don't think which IL2FB consider 20000m, 15000m or 12000m equal to 10000m! Why? Simple! How you explain which I reach 12350m with a La-7 and only 11500m with a Bf-109G-6AS? or 13000m with a P-47D-27 and only 12050m with a P-51D-5NT?

Moreover, if you consider which is possible to a Me-262A-1a reach 20000m, and consider the atmosphere at 20000m equal to 10000m (in the game), then there are no limit for it! It may reach the infinite! But this not occurs!

Willey
03-07-2004, 03:21 AM
Depends on engine power, and there is no alt limitation. It drops off with alt. But I wonder how the 262 can get up that high... the last time I tried I had troubles to get it at 9000m already.

Koohullin
03-07-2004, 05:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Willey:
Depends on engine power, and there is no alt limitation. It drops off with alt. But I wonder how the 262 can get up that high... the last time I tried I had troubles to get it at 9000m already.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would like to see his track but I don't have all day to watch it.

I just tried your test and barely got to 10,850m after 15 minutes using 100% throttle. Trim set to max up and the 262 mushing along at just over 210kph.

[This message was edited by Koohullin on Sun March 07 2004 at 08:57 AM.]

FAB_Devil
03-07-2004, 09:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Willey:
Depends on engine power, and there is no alt limitation. It drops off with alt. But I wonder how the 262 can get up that high... the last time I tried I had troubles to get it at 9000m already.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There are a technique for this! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Fly a Me-262 is very different of fly another aircraft with propeller!

Now, see this Me-262A-2a with full loadout (2x250Kg of Bombs). http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/Me-262A-2a_1944_01.jpg

http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/Me-262A-2a_1944_02.jpg

[This message was edited by FAB_Devil on Sun March 07 2004 at 10:55 AM.]

PF_Welshman
03-07-2004, 10:38 AM
lol try the ME 163

crazyivan1970
03-07-2004, 10:43 AM
I thought it was stated clearly that due to limitness of the game engine high alt modeling is impossible at the moment. Will be modeled in BOB.

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/coop-ivan.jpg

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

Ki_Rin
03-07-2004, 11:17 AM
It is a moot point, that is, any point, given the game engine limits...
But i should add that "service" ceiling is that where the ac in question cannot hold a climb of 500ft./min or more, quite different than "absolute" ceiling
Of the many faults with the game (but still a great game, not to disparage it), im not concerned with air density etc. over 100000, most df in lobby are below that, this I'm willing to live with, especially if this means I DONT HAVE TO BUY A NEW GAME, THAT NEEDS A NEW COMPUTER to keep up with games demanding oh so much to run even half-a sededly....MAN! i hate that lol

Oleg_Maddox
03-09-2004, 12:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FAB_Devil:
Oleg,

see these problems with altitudes. I reach 27350m with a BI-1 and 20400m with a Me-262A-1a. In my tests I use 50% of fuel, loadout empty and start at 10000m of altitude.

BI-1, 1942
http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/BI-1_1942_04.jpg

http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/BI-1_1942_05.jpg

http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/BI-1_1942_06.jpg

Me-262A-1a, 1944
http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/Me-262A-1a_1944_01.jpg

http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/Me-262A-1a_1944_02.jpg

http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/Me-262A-1a_1944_03.jpg

La-7, 1944
http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/La-7_1944_02.jpg

http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/La-7_1944_03.jpg

http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/La-7_1944_04.jpg

Yak-3, 1944
http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/Yak-3_1944_02.jpg

http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/Yak-3_1944_03.jpg

http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/Yak-3_1944_04.jpg

Bf-109G-6/AS, 1944
http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/Bf-109G-6AS_1944_01.jpg

http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/Bf-109G-6AS_1944_02.jpg

http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/Bf-109G-6AS_1944_03.jpg

P-47D-27, 1944 (this appear OK)
http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/P-47D-27_1944_03.jpg

http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/P-47D-27_1944_04.jpg

http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/P-47D-27_1944_05.jpg

P-51D-5NT, 1944 (is very difficult reach the maximum altitude)
http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/P-51D-5NT_1944_01.jpg

http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/P-51D-5NT_1944_02.jpg

http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/P-51D-5NT_1944_03.jpg


Thanks,

FAB_Devil
"Traidores e covardes no sero perdoados!"
FAB Brazilian Official Team - http://www.brasilfab.com

Senta a Pua!
1º/1º Grupo de Aviaço de Caça Senta a Pua!
Os Jambocks

ICQ 38792295<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dear player, how many times we should write on forums that we have a limit of physical conditions modelled higher than 10,000 meters.

1. Physical conditions in 3D physical engine of IL-2 modelled from altitude 0 m to 10,000 m
2. Above 10,000 meters modeled only the same physiscal conditions as on 10,000 m itself.

It is a limit of Il-2 3D engine, becasue was never planned in the past that Il-2 will growing so much with new planes, especially western.

Koohullin
03-09-2004, 04:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ki_Rin:

But i should add that "service" ceiling is that where the ac in question cannot hold a climb of 500ft./min or more, quite different than "absolute" ceiling
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought it was 100f/m, at least for Western planes.

FAB_Devil
03-13-2004, 04:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oleg_Maddox:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FAB_Devil:
Oleg,

see these problems with altitudes. I reach 27350m with a BI-1 and 20400m with a Me-262A-1a. In my tests I use 50% of fuel, loadout empty and start at 10000m of altitude.

BI-1, 1942
http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/BI-1_1942_04.jpg

http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/BI-1_1942_05.jpg

http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/BI-1_1942_06.jpg

Me-262A-1a, 1944
http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/Me-262A-1a_1944_01.jpg

http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/Me-262A-1a_1944_02.jpg

http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/Me-262A-1a_1944_03.jpg

La-7, 1944
http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/La-7_1944_02.jpg

http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/La-7_1944_03.jpg

http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/La-7_1944_04.jpg

Yak-3, 1944
http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/Yak-3_1944_02.jpg

http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/Yak-3_1944_03.jpg

http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/Yak-3_1944_04.jpg

Bf-109G-6/AS, 1944
http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/Bf-109G-6AS_1944_01.jpg

http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/Bf-109G-6AS_1944_02.jpg

http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/Bf-109G-6AS_1944_03.jpg

P-47D-27, 1944 (this appear OK)
http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/P-47D-27_1944_03.jpg

http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/P-47D-27_1944_04.jpg

http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/P-47D-27_1944_05.jpg

P-51D-5NT, 1944 (is very difficult reach the maximum altitude)
http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/P-51D-5NT_1944_01.jpg

http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/P-51D-5NT_1944_02.jpg

http://fabdevil.hpg.com.br/FAB/IL2FB/Bugs1/P-51D-5NT_1944_03.jpg


Thanks,

FAB_Devil
"Traidores e covardes no sero perdoados!"
FAB Brazilian Official Team - http://www.brasilfab.com

Senta a Pua!
1º/1º Grupo de Aviaço de Caça Senta a Pua!
Os Jambocks

ICQ 38792295<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dear player, how many times we should write on forums that we have a limit of physical conditions modelled higher than 10,000 meters.

1. Physical conditions in 3D physical engine of IL-2 modelled from altitude 0 m to 10,000 m
2. Above 10,000 meters modeled only the same physiscal conditions as on 10,000 m itself.

It is a limit of Il-2 3D engine, becasue was never planned in the past that Il-2 will growing so much with new planes, especially western.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dear developers, then there are not one problem, but several problems:

1. IL2 3D engine doesn't prevent altitudes above 10000m but several aircrafts which fly above 10000m reach different altitudes;

2. IL2 is a simulator or a simple game?! If it is a simulator, then you have consider the reality around you! You don't know the reality around you to make a simulator?! Or IL2 is make for another reality?!

3. This is very good for cheater players! An excellent way to get advantage in combat on high altitudes!

BAHHHHH! HOW MANY TIMES WE SHOULD SEE ON FORUMS THAT IL-2 IS OK, FM IS OK, DM IS OK, AND WHICH ALL IS OK (EXCEPTING ALL BUGS AND PROBLEMS)? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

LASTIMABLE!!!

[This message was edited by FAB_Devil on Sat March 13 2004 at 03:52 PM.]

[This message was edited by FAB_Devil on Sat March 13 2004 at 03:53 PM.]

Korolov
03-13-2004, 07:19 PM
I don't see what the topic starter is hinting at. The limits of the engine prevent modeling altitude parameters above 10,000 meters. Is that so hard to understand? It is impossible to modify the engine any further without a total rework of the coding from the ground up. Preventing players from going higher than 10,000m is a non-issue as well, because it is rare for people to fly that high, much less fight up there.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
3. This is very good for cheater players! An excellent way to get advantage in combat on high altitudes!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How so? Planes that perform good at 10,000m will hold that performance while planes that drop off long before 10,000m will blow up there. And like I said, high altitude combat is a big "what-if" in the game right now.

From what I can tell, the topic starter just wants to whine and cry about something for no reason.

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/newsig1.jpg

LEXX_Luthor
03-13-2004, 07:19 PM
FAB_Devil:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>BAHHHHH! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>They don't like getting the Smackdown

__________________
"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Zeroneg1
03-13-2004, 07:36 PM
Hmm this is interesting. I think a lot of people bought IL-2,Fb and AEP for the dogfighting and for online playing and not many will try to be 'test pilots' for vintage WWII planes.

Another issue I guess is that not many realize that this is a 3D enevironment with scale and accuracy limitations. in 3D modeling, accuracy in calculations do suffer because of the rounding off of decimal places when an object is very far from the origin. I would imagine a similar limitation in a game engine much more so if there are layers of atmosphere to consider. Maybe Oleg shold release a 'test pilot' expansion pack for those who do not care about dodging bullets and doing split-s while flying below 2000m http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BlitzPig_DDT
03-13-2004, 07:39 PM
10,000 you say? I'm not sure it's even *that* high.

In my glide down from, well, lets just say very high, in one of the planes last night, I noticed a distinct change in drag once I broke though the cirrus cloud layer, about 7-8Km. I had also heard that 7500m was the upper limit before. Seems that it might still be.

==================================
The Blitz Pigs - Not a squad, a Movement!

Come and spam on our front porch.

http://www.blitzpigs.com

LEXX_Luthor
03-13-2004, 07:42 PM
DDT:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I had also heard that 7500m was the upper limit before. Seems that it might still be.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Good Point. The larger AI bombers struggle to keep assigned waypoint altitude until they stabilze at about ~7500m. They cannot maintain higher altitudes. But setting them as Empty and 25% fuel helps a little bit but not too much.

If Oleg could lower the cirrus cloud grafix and contrail level to about 6000m that would help us simulate such visual environemts. 7000m is too high given the behavior of the AI bombers.


__________________
"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Spinne_3.-JG51
03-13-2004, 08:04 PM
The 262 climbs like a sow from 7500 to 10000 meters, and then starts behaving normally again above 10000m. I hope they fix this in the next sim.

http://www.student.richmond.edu/~vk5qa/images/forumsig.jpg

"Come on in, I'll treat you nice! I used to know your father."