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Levethane
07-12-2004, 08:25 PM
Get one thing straight I think IL2 is the greatest flightsim ever, and I've played nearly all of them. So this is not criticism of this fantastic sim.

My 86 year old Great Uncle was in the RAF during WW2 and flew both the Bolton Paul Defiant (very very briefly as he knew it was a deathtrap) and the Hawker Hurricane (about 9 sorties after the Battle of Britain, was awarded half a kill on a Dornier) until he had a bad car accident in late 1940 and was put on the ground crew after he got out of hospital).
Dispiste his age he still has good eyesight and enjoys computers (even though he is fairly illiterate with themhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif). He watched me play a game of IL2 Aces in quick mission builder against a couple of HE111's. While giving me a few tips "always attack those things headon was the rule, a few bullets into the cockpit used to cause half the glass to collapse and make it almost unflyable for the poor sod at the stick if he was still alive" Well I circled around and fired at close range at the right engine on one of them with the 8 Browning mg's, a good 3 second burst, a few debris flew off and a small puff of smoke but as usual the HE111 kept plodding on. My Uncle disagreed here "whoever designed this game got it wrong, a good squirt into the engine would rip the wing off those things back in 1940, a good Hurry pilot could nail 2 or more in a single pass, he also felt that either the Hurricane was underpowered or the Heinkel was overpowered. "we used to zoom through their formations like they weren't even moving, great big lumbering pigs, they were a terrible design, a complete deathtrap for the crew".

Does IL2 underrate the power of the .303 mg? It does seem to take a hell of a lot of bullets to bring a enemy plane down sometimes.

Best sim ever!

Levethane
07-12-2004, 08:25 PM
Get one thing straight I think IL2 is the greatest flightsim ever, and I've played nearly all of them. So this is not criticism of this fantastic sim.

My 86 year old Great Uncle was in the RAF during WW2 and flew both the Bolton Paul Defiant (very very briefly as he knew it was a deathtrap) and the Hawker Hurricane (about 9 sorties after the Battle of Britain, was awarded half a kill on a Dornier) until he had a bad car accident in late 1940 and was put on the ground crew after he got out of hospital).
Dispiste his age he still has good eyesight and enjoys computers (even though he is fairly illiterate with themhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif). He watched me play a game of IL2 Aces in quick mission builder against a couple of HE111's. While giving me a few tips "always attack those things headon was the rule, a few bullets into the cockpit used to cause half the glass to collapse and make it almost unflyable for the poor sod at the stick if he was still alive" Well I circled around and fired at close range at the right engine on one of them with the 8 Browning mg's, a good 3 second burst, a few debris flew off and a small puff of smoke but as usual the HE111 kept plodding on. My Uncle disagreed here "whoever designed this game got it wrong, a good squirt into the engine would rip the wing off those things back in 1940, a good Hurry pilot could nail 2 or more in a single pass, he also felt that either the Hurricane was underpowered or the Heinkel was overpowered. "we used to zoom through their formations like they weren't even moving, great big lumbering pigs, they were a terrible design, a complete deathtrap for the crew".

Does IL2 underrate the power of the .303 mg? It does seem to take a hell of a lot of bullets to bring a enemy plane down sometimes.

Best sim ever!

heywooood
07-12-2004, 08:38 PM
Peter Townsend in his book describes using the headon attack against He111 and Do17's also.

He even indicates that once you were on level or descending slightly out in front of them in headon profile - the idea was to reduce power and slow the closing speed slightly to give yourself more time in range to pump rounds into the target a/c...



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BlakJakOfSpades
07-12-2004, 09:10 PM
hmm thats interesting, an opinion from an actual vet. i cant say anything on the matter really, except that i find that very interesting

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_VR_ScorpionWorm
07-12-2004, 09:38 PM
I am wondering, could it be the possibility of the model numbers H2 and H6, FB shows they are the 1940 model but did these versions see BoB? If this is how they got tore up, maybe you should send 1c.Maddox this little bit of 'history' from a vet so maybe we can see it in BoB.

edit: hmm found this on raf.mod.uk:
"and by the time of the Battle of Britain many German units were flying the He111H which suffered from inadequate firepower when attacked."-so I guess they did fly H model versions....but which model is the question.

another edit: and we also have to worry about the sharpshooter AI as well

http://img55.photobucket.com/albums/v169/Scorpion08/Hurri-1.jpg

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Bearcat99
07-12-2004, 09:50 PM
I always lo re to hear actual accounts.... but like the worm said.... what models were they? In any case.... I think we sometiumes forget that this is a simulation because it is so good and we have come to expect as much accuracy as possible but i always have to remind myself that its still a sim.. a program. This thing is just so frickin good that it has probably raised the flight sim bar so high that the nex6t level would be holo sims.

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BfHeFwMe
07-12-2004, 10:15 PM
Could be the zoom level throws much of the closure rate perception out the door. The nearest view to human is the full zoom in, often find I slam into things by underestimating the closure rate and range when in full zoom.

WUAF_Badsight
07-12-2004, 10:50 PM
the hurricane in FB is the Russian Version

it has 100 Hp LESS than the British Hurricane

my best sortie in the Hurri IIb is getting 4 Bf109s engines blowen thus they were "shot down"

ive never busted a plane apart with the Hurri IIb , just messed them up is all

flowen the Mk1 about 6 times that i remember (prolly more but even if it is , its still a super low number)

fly the Feild Mod more than the MkIIc now , more deadly IMO

would LOVE to get a British spec Mk1 Spitfire into FB

.
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WTE_Galway
07-12-2004, 10:52 PM
slightly off-topic

but apparently the defiants used to take out the he111 but coming up from underneath and popping up directly in front and hammering the pilot and front gunner from close range with their rear turrent

the story is it worked really well if you bounced them about to land as they were very unmanouverable when dirty

DangerForward
07-12-2004, 11:10 PM
The MK I hurricane has to be one of the hardest planes to be successful in. The guns on it seem really weak, but hardest thing is the engine overheating. Since the Spit has some overheating problems, I've wondered if it's a related problem.

DangerForward

Levethane
07-13-2004, 01:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
slightly off-topic

but apparently the defiants used to take out the he111 but coming up from underneath and popping up directly in front and hammering the pilot and front gunner from close range with their rear turrent

the story is it worked really well if you bounced them about to land as they were very unmanouverable when dirty<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think my uncle flew around 3-4 times in the Defiant as the pilot, before it was taken away from the front line and used as a nightfighter. He claimed it was 'gutless' 'vibrated like hell' 'no forward armament meant Jerry nailed Defiants without even getting shot at' The rear turret packed a lot of power but it was to inaccurate at range, couldn't fire forwards or straight behind, took the tailgunner almost a minute to bail out as well, and that was assuming the plane was not in a spin, it was also far to clumsy to out maneuver a 109 or 110.
When he joined his squadron they had 12 planes, just over a month later they had 3 left.
He reckoned the Fairy Battle had a better survival chance than the Defiant in a furball and it was 120kph slower...
He still thanks his lucky stars he never encountered any Germans on patrol and that his transfer to a Hurricane squadron was approved.

Levethane
07-13-2004, 01:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Levethane:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
slightly off-topic

but apparently the defiants used to take out the he111 but coming up from underneath and popping up directly in front and hammering the pilot and front gunner from close range with their rear turrent

the story is it worked really well if you bounced them about to land as they were very unmanouverable when dirty<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think my uncle flew around 3-4 times in the Defiant as the pilot, before it was taken away from the front line and used as a nightfighter. He claimed it was 'gutless' 'vibrated like hell' 'no forward armament meant Jerry nailed Defiants without even getting shot at' The rear turret packed a lot of power but it was to inaccurate at range, couldn't fire forwards or straight behind, took the tailgunner almost a minute to bail out as well, and that was assuming the plane was not in a spin, it was also far to clumsy to out maneuver a 109 or 110.
When he joined his squadron they had 12 planes, just over a month later they had 3 left.
He reckoned the Fairy Battle had a better survival chance than the Defiant in a furball and it was 120kph slower...
He still thanks his lucky stars he never encountered any Germans on patrol and that his transfer to a Hurricane squadron was approved.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://www.kotfsc.com/thunderbolt/graphics/defiant-1.jpg

JtD
07-13-2004, 02:41 AM
Very interesting to hear from a veteran. I never thought about this consequence of the all-glass front. Must have been a real pain.

The 0.303 might be to weak, but probably the He is just a little strong. You can drop Ju's and Bf's easily with 0.303. Basically the 0.303 behaves like every other weapon in the game, sometimes it's too good, sometimes it refuses to work.

I don't think a good burst would always take off the wing of a He.

Also, in BoB the Heinkels did not fly full power, therefore they were slower and gave the Hurricane a good speed margin. The Germans used mainly 111-H, but also the earlier 111-P.

Nub_322Sqn
07-13-2004, 03:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
the hurricane in FB is the Russian Version

it has 100 Hp _LESS_ than the British Hurricane<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Since he was talking about the Hurricane MKI how can that be a Russian version since they never used any MKI?

The Fins used the MKI, the Russians used the MKII's.

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GazzaMataz
07-13-2004, 03:31 AM
Hmmm, this is very interesting! I been playing the BoB by Extreme One and I find that the Hurricane does seem slow and I am forever getting sniped by those darned rear gunners.

One thing you gotta remember though, the Hurricane in FB is not the one from the BoB and neither is the Heinkel. So I would imagine the Heinkels are more armoured, and faster whereas the Hurricane as WUAF_Badsight said had 100hp extra.

One other thing is in FB a kill registers when the plane crashes, from what I have read if you hit a Heinkel in the engine and the engine then leaks feul/glycol/soup :) whatever it will limp back home and probably crash but you would never know this and it wouldn't register in the mission as a kill. So you kinda loose out...

Anyway, my Hurri engine keeps overheating and conking out - I am not quite sure why...

Tickety boo...
Gazzamataz
http://www.gazzamataz.com

AWL_Spinner
07-13-2004, 04:13 AM
...Have you tried all those things I suggested in that other thread?

Cheers, Spinner

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Lazy312
07-13-2004, 04:24 AM
As for the He 111, one of my friend calls it a true flying fortress in FB and I agree. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif It's very hard to shoot down even with cannons..

wooden planes, iron men

GazzaMataz
07-13-2004, 05:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>...Have you tried all those things I suggested in that other thread?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sorry mate! I was gonna reply in the other thread but I saw this one first.

Right, as far as engine management is concerned I have worked out prop pitch, supercharger and radiator flap positioning I cannot seem to get the mixture thing to work... I have set up a hotkey for it but I get no feedback when I try it. Shouldn't it show up on screen like when you adjust prop pitch?

Anyway last night I had a very embarrasing moment I was flying the mission where you circle the ships in the channel twice and then get to shoot down some Stukas. Well, I was having trouble keeping up with the AI planes again so I must have had power on 110% a little too long although I was watching the temp. Then I got the signal 'Tally Ho' and the engine died at about 4,000 ft. I opened the radiator fully and waited while it glided... restart... engine died again... glided... restart... engine died... Oh oh! Getting bit low, anyway my altitude got to 250 metres so I was outta that plane cos airspeed got down to 160kph and it weren't gonna be long till I stalled and would have been brown bread!

Then I was sent to France. First mission I was after a recon He-111 managed to get several good hits on her and she was leaking like a goodun. Being greedy and mad for a kill I went in for some more action and god wacked in the radiator - ollox - eventually the engine died but I managed to glide her down to a nearby runway and touched down even though she tipped up on her nose cos the ground way a bit lumpy. Kill didn't register though - annoying!

Next mission I got in real close to a He-111 let loose and just as I did the He-111 reared up right in front of me - literally yards in front - next thing I new the engine was on fire. I was outta that plane sharp but unfortunately I parachuted into enemy territory and was captured http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

Sorry if that was a bit long but I just thought I'd tell ya http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Thanks very much for the help too.

Tickety boo...
Gazzamataz
http://www.gazzamataz.com

steiner562
07-13-2004, 06:47 AM
I think yu are attacking the HE-111 incorrectly if you are having probs downing it I can post tracks downing it one pass in a hurricane,IF its attacked in the correct manner,HE-111 overmodeled? I think not,intresting read though on what your uncle had to say http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://www.bf109.com/gallery/grayeagle/gallgray01sm.jpg

carguy_
07-13-2004, 07:10 AM
Well,I would agree if the effect of 8 firing .303s would tear the wing so the plane would lose most of it`s lift force but certainly not blast it off.Small caliber weapons don`t tear in pieces,they make many small holes.

http://carguy.w.interia.pl/tracki/sig23d.jpg

GazzaMataz
07-13-2004, 07:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I can post tracks downing it one pass in a hurricane<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Please, please, please post tracks - would love to see this done!

Tickety boo...
Gazzamataz
http://www.gazzamataz.com

xanty
07-13-2004, 07:22 AM
Hi all!

I am not an expert, but for what I have read so far:

* The He-111 that were used on BoB were mostly H-2 (Jummo engines) and P-2 (DB501 engines) and only carried a dorsal gunner, a belly gunner and a nose gunner. No side window gunners. The ones we have in Il-2 have better engines and better armor (1941)

* The nose was made of plexi-glass, and it did not shatter so eaily. Yes, you get cracks and holes, but it doesn't desintegrate in one pass. Still, I would **** my pants if I ewas the pilot on a head on...

* The Hurricanes had problems downing them because they were fairly slow at climbing, and their top speed was mediocre (still faster than the Heinkels) In many instances, it was necesary to fill the enemy bombers with as much as 500 rounds, and many made it back with almost 1000. In many cases, several passes and several hurricanes were used to down a single stray bomber. I doubt a single hurricane could easily down 2 in one pass as the poster mentioned...

* The RAF attacked either head on or from the beam sides. Normally in a three piece unit, at full speed. The attacks were planned and took time to accomplish. It was not like like we normally do.

As for how the Il-2 engine handles such encounters, well, I think the He-111 it's a tad too fast, the AI doesn't evade wel, it doens't break when attacked and it seems to never leave formation and RTB when hit. The engines are easily knocked off, just takes time for them to seize and stop. Of course, gunners a a bit of a hindrance when they aim so well...

Hope this clears some points. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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yarbles67
07-13-2004, 07:58 AM
1938 Hurricane in Il2 is a dog. The one map rotation on GG is so frustrating in this plane that I'll no longer even attempt to fly it. With the weak engines and over heating issue - it's best used to training rookie pilots http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I've tried numerous times to do various Battle of Britain scenarios in this plane and without Spitfire support - it's a clay pigeon. The 8 mgs don't seem to do squat against bombers. Against Emils, it can do the job but you'll get torn an a-hole by other 109s. The Hurricane is just too out classed by the Emils to ever be used in a dog fight. So, the best it can do is be used as maybe bomber intercceptors but it must have a large compliment of fighter escorts. Hopefully in the future BoB game, they'll make her more enjoyable to fly. It's fun to fly but for survivability, it's a lemon in this game.

PBNA-Boosher
07-13-2004, 08:13 AM
A Hurri can easily defeat an Emil if you get it to turn fight with you.

Boosher
_____________________________
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AWL_Spinner
07-13-2004, 08:22 AM
Hurris rock, the Mk.1 bird is one of my favourite in Forgotten Battles. A plane that requires some tactics and good gunnery to achieve results.

Gazzamataz, glad you're having fun in the campaign. Regarding your kills not registering, they won't until the aircraft actually crashes. If you're *really* keen to get credit for all your stricken bombers, after you've landed speed up time to x8 to see if they crash (assuming you have external camera views on) - you can watch them, often they don't have enough power to maintain height and will belly into a field/the sea trailing smoke, this may take some time from 12,000ft.

I'll post you some tracks too if I get time.

Cheers, Spinner

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yarbles67
07-13-2004, 08:33 AM
True - if you're lucky enough to get an Emil in a one vs one. On GG, you'll be swarmed by other 109 pilots like flies on dung. In Exteme Ones BoB campaign - insanity. In 4 vs 4 encounter, your only option is to ensure you have like 1000 meter height advantage and watch your AI and hope then can widdle down the opposition. Even then, it's best to only engage 109s when the Hurricanes have numbers advantage. If you do get in touble - best just to bail. You can't out run or out climb a 109. If you have two or three on your tail, you could try to turn until the 109s either stall into the ground or RTB. Often times, you'll end up turning and one or two 109s will break out of the turn and re-enter for a deflection shot. It's just a bad plane to be in when you want to survive and keep a pilot career going.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PBNA-Boosher:
A Hurri can easily defeat an Emil if you get it to turn fight with you.

Boosher
_____________________________
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GazzaMataz
07-13-2004, 08:40 AM
yarbles67

What you say does seem quite true - sadly I always had afection for the Hurricane since it was the unsung hero of the BoB.

Thing is I have been reading the Osprey 'Hurrican Aces 1939-40' and it paints a bit of a different picture about this bird. They did down alot of German bombers and although the Emil was faster and better armed they did take these buggers on and win! Then again there were the Me110s and the Stukas whcih tended to sucumb to the Hurricane.

Anyway, I am looking forward to the BoB when it's released, I do find the Hurricane an easy plane to fly (at least I can land it).

Tickety boo...
Gazzamataz
http://www.gazzamataz.com

Atomic_Marten
07-13-2004, 08:42 AM
I believe the vet guy. I was watching some videos about BoB and lot of Hurri vets (in their 80's) were claiming that bird was really good to fly with excellent firepower, their only concern was fuel tank (in front of them if it was on fire they almost stand no chance to survive) and ammo shortage (about 15s of firing time they say). In IL-2 on IIb it last longer a bit.

However I agree that if u make a succesful head on on any bomber it should went down (especially with Hurri since Hurri literally files bomber cockpit with lead shattering everything despite it's low calibar .303's http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif). But I also think that feature is hard to implement in any game at this level (if not impossible).

yarbles67
07-13-2004, 09:06 AM
Hey GazzaMataz,

I wanted so much to fly this Hurricane and complete a career for the same reasons you enjoy the plane but it's too frustrating. The Hurricane fitted with the cannons performs better but there's something about that 38 Hurricane that makes me want to fly it more eventhough its porked.

horseback
07-13-2004, 09:06 AM
Mk II Hurricanes were reaching frontline squadrons from about September 1940 onwards, so the Mk IIa at least saw extensive combat in the BoB. The Hurris given the Russians were standard Mk IIb's, but the Russians were less than conscientious about oil filtering and the like, and no doubt the aircraft's performance in their hands was less than expected.

As for the He 111H, IMO, the damage model doesn't appear to have changed much from the original Il-2 Sturmovik. Except for the occasional spectacular hit on the bombload, I can't get them to explode or burn with any consistancy.

About the collapse of the nose under LMG fire: gravity isn't what makes the plexiglass fold after it has been thoroughly punctured by a spray of .303s. The aircraft is moving at 150 mph or more, and the wind pressure on the nose greenhouse is significant. A little structural damage would result in a domino type effect, as described by Levethane's Great Uncle.

Similarly, sheets of thin (less than a tenth of an inch) aluminum getting hammered by even a couple of bullets would deform, and a slightly raised lip could result in the whole thing tearing off in that wind/air stream. I'm of the understanding that the structure is designed so that the aluminum sheets provide a portion of the structural strength, so again, I think we would expect a domino effect under the stress of flight speeds. To be fair, this is difficult to model, but a certain number of hits in a given area ought to give a catastrophic effect.

About relative speeds, we can use the example of the freeways. We've all been passed by someone 'as though we were standing still.' Often, the speeding vehicle was going only 30kph faster than our own vehicle, but the effect is the same as if we were stopped and he was going 30kph. I got the impression that even the 'fast' bombers rarely traveled over a fast cruise on their way to the target, so their speeds would have been less than 200mph (320kph or so), and an attacking Hurricane would have usually been going 40 or 50 mph faster (a maximum of 250 mph; call it around 235mph or 375 kph).

In the game, your range of vision is so restricted that judging your speed and aiming with that kind of speed differential would be all but impossible, particularly when you consider that 'Gunsight' view is probably closest to the size of the real thing (minus the tunnel vision effect). Most of us tend to slow down a bit to improve our firing solution, and I suspect that the game is biased a bit to limit the frustration factor (which is still pretty high) caused by high closure speeds and poor field of view.

The key to targeting with a high rate of closure is the approach from 1000m or more away; you have to line up your target early and approach smoothly (jerking on your stick as you close tends to make aiming difficult) and target one point on your victim to maximize the damage. With only an 85 degree wide 'pinhole' view(most of us can note movement in a 190 degree circle around our eyes, up-down as well as left-right), no input from your inner ear, seat-of-the-pants feel or FFB stick, a computer pilot has a lot fewer cues than in RL, and aiming at a big slow target is proportionally difficult.

The closure rate issue is probably an intentional compromise; the damage model issue is legit, particularly when aircraft noted for their ruggedness burst into flames at a heated glance.

cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

steiner562
07-13-2004, 09:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GazzaMataz:
[QUOTE]I can post tracks downing it one pass in a hurricane<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Please, please, please post tracks - would love to see this done!



hi Gazzamatz I uploaded the track to web space in lycos but still trying to figure out how to get it available for public download,if yu still want the track ill gladly send via email,(faster at this stage me thinks) steiner_362@hotmail.com
regards
stein http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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Aaron_GT
07-13-2004, 10:21 AM
"ive never busted a plane apart with the Hurri IIb , just messed them up is all"

You can get the He-111 to explode with the IIb if you hit the vulnerable area under the wing roots. It only seems actually possible to do this with AI opponents - real pilots don't let you get that close. The tactic of spraying the glazed area on a He-111 seems to be effective and downing them with a reasonable success rate, it's just not very spectacular. I don't know how the success rate compares to real life.

The He-111 wing root seems vulnerable to a couple of 12.7mm nose guns too, but then that's about the equivalent of 6 .303s, closely concentrated in the nose.

NorrisMcWhirter
07-13-2004, 10:26 AM
Hi,

Never flown one IRL so cannot say. As to Hurri guns in FB:

I've never downed a He111 in one pass in a Hurri although I have been told, online, that if you are an 'ace' you can get them to explode outright with one pass of the 20mm-equipped Spit(!) Maybe..if you hit the bombs...

Rather, with the Hurri it takes several passes on the 111 and is most effective if you shoot at the cockpit.

The Hurri is very effective in a turn fight with a 109 - a second burst at the belly or in the pit/engine will take them down. How do you get them into a turnfight? Try hanging around in clouds to get a Emil pilot to overstretch himself by trying to find you through ditching his E.

Cheers,
Norris

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www.chavscum.co.uk (http://www.chavscum.co.uk)

_VR_ScorpionWorm
07-13-2004, 10:28 AM
Dive on the HE 90deg. take out the top gunner, come on his six pretty high and just blow away at one of the engines, the wing root or cockpit if high enough. You will definetley get that baby down, even in the Mk.I. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://img55.photobucket.com/albums/v169/Scorpion08/Hurri-1.jpg

www.vultures-row.com (http://www.vultures-row.com)

LilHorse
07-13-2004, 11:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GazzaMataz:
One thing you gotta remember though, the Hurricane in FB is not the one from the BoB<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, the Mk.I (1938) IS the model used in the BoB.

Black Sheep
07-13-2004, 11:46 AM
According to pretty much any source you care to mention - including the RAF's official BoB website - Hurricanes downed two thirds of all enemy aircraft claimed during that period.

Without the Hurricane, Britain would have gone down.

Me, I'd listen to the veteran's opinion of the aircraft - always a pleasure to hear them speak.

http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/ilsigs/Nachtjaeger.jpg

Edit: the RAF's site claims four fifths of all all kills from July - October 1940 fell to Hurricane guns.

[This message was edited by Moo.Cow on Tue July 13 2004 at 10:54 AM.]

p1ngu666
07-13-2004, 01:28 PM
the overheat is dodgy http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
&lt;123_GWood_JG123&gt; NO SPAM!

VW-IceFire
07-13-2004, 02:10 PM
I think its the Heinkle. You can pound the heck out of these guys and they don't go down. Doesn't matter if its a ShVAK or a .303...its better at taking damage than the B-17 is sometimes.

The .303's I think are overall a little weak...but probably because the modeling for the type of damage they would cause is just not there. I'll bet dollars to donuts that its fixed for BoB and not before.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

Gibbage1
07-13-2004, 02:44 PM
The He-111 is VERY resistant to .303's. I was online in GG on a desert map. He-111, G.50 and Cd.42 vs Hurricane's and Gladiators. I saw 4 fighters parked behind a He-111 filling it with THOUSANDS of bulletes. You can see all the hits and the He's only had fuel leaks or a slightly smoking engine. The He's romped freely on the map and nobody could shoot these things down. Not even 5 fighters on 1 bomber! I finally got one myself in a Gladiator from a head-on pass killing the pilot. But that was after 3 Hurricanes used up there entire load of .303's on it. I soon left because it was impossible. Everyone on Axis side soon switched to He's and were just going around letting there gunners get kills for them. No need for fighters.

Im sure someone can post a track of a Hurricane taking down a He-111 in 1 pass. Lucky shot. I would like to see them repeat it 4 times.

Monty_Thrud
07-13-2004, 03:08 PM
I have to say this, i know this is about the Hurricane(my favourite plane along with the Spitfire and many others) but does anyone else find it nye on impossible to attack the HE111 with the Spitfire, very rarely get a second chance of attack without getting hit and suffering engine failure, i know she has a bit of a glass jaw but this is getting to the point i wont even go near a HE111.

Also about the Hurricane i totally agree with the original poster she does seem very slow, i know she wasnt as fast as the Spitfire, but sometimes i feel like getting out and giving her a push http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif...i've been told this is not a good idea whilst in flight http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Does anyone have any full flight performance data links?


Thanks http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.uploadit.org/bsamania/Huzzy_no_ordnance03.jpg
"#2 Attack that ship".."#1..with what?".."#2 your ordnance DAMMIT!".."#1 my ordnance is in Olegs office, same place yours is".."#2 we'd better learn German then"

Black Sheep
07-13-2004, 03:21 PM
It's not full flight data, but the RAF website (here) (http://www.raf.mod.uk/bob1940/hurricane.html) suggests a max speed of 328mph at 20,000ft

jazman777
07-13-2004, 03:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by yarbles67:
1938 Hurricane in Il2 is a dog. The one map rotation on GG is so frustrating in this plane that I'll no longer even attempt to fly it. With the weak engines and over heating issue - it's best used to training rookie pilots http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I flew on that map for the first time last night. I've flown the Hurri just a few times overall, and haven't for a long time. First off, I firewalled the throttle--no response! Took a long time to spin up the engine. Then--no power! Slow climbing. Then--overheating! Open up radiator, throttle back. Then--engine conks out! I forgot about the carburetor and gravity feed, restart, stall, restart, stall, finally just miss hitting the ground. Then--a Ju87! I get shot down by a freakin' Ju87, front guns, not rear gunner! (Just got a TrackIR, ironing it out, but still, props to the Ju87 driver). Are the GreaterGreen pilots so good that they'll take their Ju87s on a fighter sweep against Hurricanes and Gladiators? Normally I just get shot down by the fighters or an occasional gunner. Oh, the ignominy.

Otherwise, it was a very nice plane to fly.

Monty_Thrud
07-13-2004, 03:58 PM
Thanks Moo.Cow, thats a good link, but i was hoping for a more complete flight data, like a motorcycles 0 - 60mph, but obviously 0 - 328mph level flight etc, anyhow, comprehensive flight info, i guess i'll google http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.uploadit.org/bsamania/Huzzy_no_ordnance03.jpg
"#2 Attack that ship".."#1..with what?".."#2 your ordnance DAMMIT!".."#1 my ordnance is in Olegs office, same place yours is".."#2 we'd better learn German then"

KGr.HH-Sunburst
07-13-2004, 04:52 PM
if you shoot a human He111 in the engines it will die in 3/4 minutes as the engines will go out but for the rest they are pretty though to down
just spray at the engines and it wont fly long only problem is others will shoot at it in that time and will be regarded with the kill

i love to fly the He111 and play for gunner myself and im surprised 90% of the Hurries spit, P40s etc attack from a direct six ,making them selfs look foolish and after 10 seconds dead lol and then they start to whine how uber the gunners are,then ill tell them i shot the gun myself http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

http://www.hell-hounds.de
http://img31.photobucket.com/albums/v94/sunburst/sunsigHH.jpg
''All your Mustangs are belong to us''

Stanger_361st
07-13-2004, 05:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RK_HH-Sunburst:
if you shoot a human He111 in the engines it will die in 3/4 minutes as the engines will go out but for the rest they are pretty though to down
just spray at the engines and it wont fly long only problem is others will shoot at it in that time and will be regarded with the kill

i love to fly the He111 and play for gunner myself and im surprised 90% of the Hurries spit, P40s etc attack from a direct six ,making them selfs look foolish and after 10 seconds dead lol and then they start to whine how uber the gunners are,then ill tell them i shot the gun myself http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

http://www.hell-hounds.de
http://img31.photobucket.com/albums/v94/sunburst/sunsigHH.jpg
_''All your Mustangs are belong to us''_
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is interesting so can I get out of this that human gunners are better than AI. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

So much for the Whiners about the gunners. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

WTE_Galway
07-13-2004, 05:46 PM
RAF beam attacks on he111 with side gunners usually consisted of a faint to one side to get the gunner over to that side than a genuine attack on the opposite beam before the gunner could swap back

WereSnowleopard
07-13-2004, 06:25 PM
Damage effect and firepower may be more realistic in Oleg's BOB. Let's wait and see it's effect/result.

Regards
Snowleopard

GazzaMataz
07-14-2004, 02:37 AM
Hey, I am not whining about rear gunners I am just saying they are a bit bloody good and a nuisance - they also seem hard to take out. I got some tracks from Stein on taking out He-111 in a Hurri and I'll enjoy watching them.

BTW, last night playing the RAF campaing by Extreme_One I dunno how I dun it but I took out two Me 110s had a fuel leak, stalled in mid combat and was a siting duck, was chased home and hounded constantly whilst trying to land. It was a terrific mission and I am looking forward to the rest of it.

Do I want a medal? Nah! I got one last night LOL http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

P.S. When is the BoB likely to be released?

P.P.S. jazman777,I 'll try not to get shot up by a Ju87 I feel your ignominy http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Tickety boo...
Gazzamataz
http://www.gazzamataz.com

[This message was edited by GazzaMataz on Wed July 14 2004 at 02:27 AM.]

Levethane
07-14-2004, 02:40 AM
I actually like the Hurricane but as other ppl have said I find it overheats far to easily. Also werid if your flying at 3500meters at 350kmh, that is at least a -20 windchill hitting the engine, so I find it amazing that they still managed to overheat.

One thing amusing that happened to my Uncle was after a successful mission he landed his plane and a photographer from the news went running over to grab a picture of him getting out, he jumped out of his cockpit trying to look good,onto the wing and put his right leg straight through it, "dam cheapy fabric" was his comment, luckily the picture wasn't printedhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

He also said he used to fly with the cockpit open, as to get a better view around him, he said the cockpit used to reflect the sun quite badly and was hard to see through even without the sun, plus the fact that both the early Spitfires and Hurricanes cockpits were notorious at getting jammed during a fire also helped.
"The freezing cold wind used to help keep you awake on the early patrols" was another reasonhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

AWL_Spinner
07-14-2004, 03:35 AM
How are you people overheating your Hurricanes? If you don't take the Merlin over 100% throttle it'll never overheat. Keep full boost for when you need it, cool the engine afterwards if you have time before the next emergency and you'll be fine.

IMHO, of course http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Cheers, Spinner

http://www.alliedwingedlegion.com/members/signatures/spinner_sig.jpg

GazzaMataz
07-14-2004, 04:39 AM
Spinner, I my case I think I worked it out the engine wasn't overheating cos I was watching the temp like a hawk and adjusting the radiator flap. It was cos I was at 3,000m and then dropped to 1,500 and forgot to change the supercharger to level 1 from 2.

Well, that's my theory anyway http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Tickety boo...
Gazzamataz
http://www.gazzamataz.com

JG53Frankyboy
07-14-2004, 06:14 AM
btw the Hurricane MkI shouldnt have a second loader stage/gear !
because its MerlinII was only a single gear supercharger engine http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

grapen2
07-14-2004, 08:53 AM
Well our Squad flys nothing but Hurricane Mk1's in ops missions, so we are a special bunch of pilots http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif, and the Hurricane Mk1 is realistic (even the two stage supercharger is correct)although its fm has been porked since the 2.01 patch.

The Heinkels can be brought down easily but only in a headon attack (as described by the veterans above by aiming at the pilot of course http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif the rest of the time go for the engines.

And why oh why do the Heinkels and some of the other aircrfat like the Me110 for instance, contunue to fly quite normally when their engines are dead ie not loosing alt much and even landing without probs lol, it it very unrealistic when this happens they should of course just drop out of the sky like a stone http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif.

The .303's are effective if you set your convergance to a realistice figure 180 or less, this way they act like a chainsaw http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


We currently have three squadrons of Hurris, based at Tangmere, all currently serving in the closing stages of the battle of France,we need pilots to fill our ranks so if you think your good in a Hurri Mk1 have a look at our website to see what we do http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.tangmerepilots-raf.co.uk

Abbuzze
07-14-2004, 09:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Levethane:

Does IL2 underrate the power of the .303 mg? It does seem to take a hell of a lot of bullets to bring a enemy plane down sometimes.

Best sim ever!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think all guns/cannons are more or less underpowered...
A member of the german forum reported his experiances with a few veterans, they stand behind him when he flow a straight 6 attack with a 109 with 20mm maingun (can´t remember the correct subtype).
He flew a classic Hartmann move- attacking a Yak1 from low/behind, and naild it with the
20mm. After the first pass all the vets. said: Wow, well made!!! He will go down.
The forum member told them that this will happen maybe after 2 times more of such an attack and they were real surprised... :/

I remember a time in il2 with the first patches, it was possible to down a fighter with one pass with the single 20mm.. today.. better don´t think about this.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I./JG53 PikAs Abbuzze
http://www.jg53-pikas.de/

http://mitglied.lycos.de/p123/bilder/Ani_pikasbanner_langsam%20neu.gif

AWL_Spinner
07-14-2004, 09:22 AM
Yup, convergence at 180m or less works for me. You can make a mess of a Heinkel in a head-on.

Cheers, Spinner

http://www.alliedwingedlegion.com/members/signatures/spinner_sig.jpg

LilHorse
07-14-2004, 10:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
btw the Hurricane MkI shouldnt have a second loader stage/gear !
because its MerlinII was only a single gear supercharger engine http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think it (the Hurris engine) was two speed but single stage supercharged. The two stage engines came in with the "blown" Spits (Mk IX?). You can tell the "blown" Spits from the radiators being symetrical in shape.

JG53Frankyboy
07-14-2004, 05:41 PM
the Hurricane MkI had the MErlinII. that was a single stage, single gear supercharger engine

the Hurricane MkII had the MerlinXX . that was a sinlge stage, two gear supercharger engine

perhaps you will find this an interesting read:

http://www.spitfiresociety.demon.co.uk/engines.htm

GazzaMataz
07-15-2004, 02:28 AM
grapen2 said:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>its fm has been porked since the 2.01 patch.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Wot is fm? Please enlighten me.

Tickety boo...
Gazzamataz
http://www.gazzamataz.com

AztekWrath
07-15-2004, 05:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lazy312:
As for the He 111, one of my friend calls it a true flying fortress in FB and I agree. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif It's very hard to shoot down even with cannons..

wooden planes, iron men<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Much depends on gun convergence. If you're guns are set to converge to 500 meters, then you might as well try to shoot it down with a sling shot.

Alexi_Alx_Anova
07-15-2004, 02:56 PM
A few weeks back, we at Tangmere Pilots No. 1 Sqn, were practicing attacks on He111s with a human as rear gunner. A good tactic taught by Sqn Leader Mothy was to come down in a steep B&Z type of attack on their 6 o'clock and spray the cockpit. The rear gunner gets very little time to spot you, let alone get his guns onto you. I found myself thinking about the way seagulls zoom down repeatedly on food. Think 'annoying seagulls trying to steal your lunch'! It may take a few passes, but if you have the grace to keep at it, just take your time and be as annoying as possible.

Alexi (aka Bottle)

-----------------------------
Drug of choice....coffee

http://web.onetel.net.uk/~alx_747/coffee.jpg
-----------------------------

Esckey666
07-16-2004, 02:36 AM
Alexi that's my tactic for taking out pretty much every 2 engine plane, save I aim for different parts all depends on the aircraft(like on the b-25 aim for the spot between the engine and the fuselage)

I do think the .303s are underpowered though, when I actually down one it usually just because of a lucky hit

GazzaMataz
07-16-2004, 02:56 AM
Just as a test I tired a Thunderbolt and a Mustang against these pseudo B-17 Heinkels last night. With rockets the P-47s obviously made mince meat of the He-111s, but when reduced to .50cal mgs althought I was hitting the targets (and getting hit back) I never actually downed them.

The same was true of the Mustang, although I did hit the right spot and suddenly one of the He-IIIs started spiralling to the ground - I must have hit the pilot. The other occasion I hit the engine and she went down.

Anyway, the point of this was to see how tough the He-IIIs are and the prob I have in the Hurri is catching these bar-stewards and climbing above them. They seem nearly as fast as my beloved Hurricane. I also wonder what the trick is to diving down on a He-III when you cannot see very well below you, even when rolling the plane.

I gotta add the highlight of my experiment was flying the P-51 at ground level under a bridge - I never thought I could do that first time round too. Will do that in the Hurricane tonight!

Tickety boo...
Gazzamataz
http://www.gazzamataz.com

JtD
07-16-2004, 06:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Levethane:
One thing amusing that happened to my Uncle was after a successful mission he landed his plane and a photographer from the news went running over to grab a picture of him getting out, he jumped out of his cockpit trying to look good,onto the wing and put his right leg straight through it, "dam cheapy fabric" was his comment, luckily the picture wasn't printed
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

*lol*

These are the moments you'll never forget for your entire life...