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View Full Version : A good read on the Ta-152, wow.



chris455
02-29-2004, 05:18 PM
Read about it here: http://members.aol.com/pelzig/ta152.htm

Says, among other intersting things, this sweetheart had a pressurized pit and a top speed of 472mph. That's as fast as the P-47M !

I wonder how the P-63 with it's hydraulic turbocharger will stack up-
S!

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

chris455
02-29-2004, 05:18 PM
Read about it here: http://members.aol.com/pelzig/ta152.htm

Says, among other intersting things, this sweetheart had a pressurized pit and a top speed of 472mph. That's as fast as the P-47M !

I wonder how the P-63 with it's hydraulic turbocharger will stack up-
S!

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

Kamikaze_Gibbon
02-29-2004, 05:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chris455:
I wonder how the P-63 with it's hydraulic turbocharger will stack up-
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I may be an ignorant baboon, but what is a hydraulic turbocharger? - I laways thought that turbochargers used the waste energy in the exhaust gas to spin a turbine (connected to a compressor) to compress the air being fed into the cylinders.

A turbo is often oil cooled but...

I am confused http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

BuzzU
02-29-2004, 05:37 PM
The 332 mph at SL is the one that counts for FB. Nobody is going to go to 41,000 ft to fight the Ta152.

Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------
http://img25.photobucket.com/albums/v76/Jamnut/clark19.jpg

jensenpark
02-29-2004, 05:53 PM
From Chriss455's link:
"German intelligence learned of the even more superior Boeing B-29 "Superfortress" and, even though the B-29 was never deployed to the European combat theatre, it proved a motivator to the Luftwaffe to come up with an answer for it."

Why was the Superfort never deployed in the European theatre of WW2? Bugs not worked out in time? Always curious about this...

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"Death before unconsciousness" - Uncle Duke

JG26Red
02-29-2004, 05:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
The 332 mph at SL is the one that counts for FB. Nobody is going to go to 41,000 ft to fight the Ta152.

Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------
http://img25.photobucket.com/albums/v76/Jamnut/clark19.jpg
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
332 is without boost, 350 with... 465 at 29k ft... what is that in kilometers? like 10 or so?
considering most of the fights happen around 5-7k... iam sure it does about 400mph around there, still rather fast...

Zyzbot
02-29-2004, 06:02 PM
[
Why was the Superfort never deployed in the European theatre of WW2? Bugs not worked out in time? Always curious about this...

If I recall...the decision was made that the B-17 and B-24 were sufficient to do the job in europe and that the greater range of the B-29 would be more useful in the CBI and Pacific theaters.

chris455
02-29-2004, 06:59 PM
BTW Buzz, nice to have you back http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

Zen--
02-29-2004, 06:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
The 332 mph at SL is the one that counts for FB. Nobody is going to go to 41,000 ft to fight the Ta152.

Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------
http://img25.photobucket.com/albums/v76/Jamnut/clark19.jpg
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, you have that right Buzz.

You won't find me up there unless it's for meditational purposes, as flying in the stratosphere is often conducive to deep thinking.

-Zen-

BuzzU
02-29-2004, 07:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zen--:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
The 332 mph at SL is the one that counts for FB. Nobody is going to go to 41,000 ft to fight the Ta152.

Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------
http://img25.photobucket.com/albums/v76/Jamnut/clark19.jpg
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, you have that right Buzz.

You won't find me up there unless it's for meditational purposes, as flying in the stratosphere is often conducive to deep thinking.

-Zen-
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think it will matter where you are. You'll be knocking them down left and right.

Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------
http://img25.photobucket.com/albums/v76/Jamnut/clark19.jpg

Magister__Ludi
02-29-2004, 07:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
The 332 mph at SL is the one that counts for FB. Nobody is going to go to 41,000 ft to fight the Ta152.

Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------
http://img25.photobucket.com/albums/v76/Jamnut/clark19.jpg
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Last part is true, but Ta-152H did 580km/h at sea level. Not the best around but still decent performance.

ElfunkoI
02-29-2004, 07:35 PM
P-47M was a whole heck of a lot faster at sea level. I really hope to fly this beast someday in FB.

P.S. Read the interview of Robert Johnson and his P-47 Lucky. Then you'll know speed. I (and many many many others) wish we had the hotrods that were in regular service.

"A6?http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Will be A6!"

BuzzU
02-29-2004, 07:37 PM
Magister__Ludi

I hear different speeds at SL. One of them was 562 km/h which would put it right with the P-51. I hope that is true, so both planes will have to fight instead of extending away.

Buzz
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http://img25.photobucket.com/albums/v76/Jamnut/clark19.jpg

WUAF_Badsight
02-29-2004, 09:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
The 332 mph at SL is the one that counts for FB. Nobody is going to go to 41,000 ft to fight the Ta152. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


loads will & already do

go online ...... youll see

faustnik
02-29-2004, 10:09 PM
Ta-152 should be interesting to fly a couple times. With such small quantities produced I can't get too excited about it. The 190A8 is the real LW workhorse. Besides, an FB 190 that turns is just would just seem like cheating. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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BuzzU
02-29-2004, 10:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
The 332 mph at SL is the one that counts for FB. Nobody is going to go to 41,000 ft to fight the Ta152. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


loads will & already do

go online ...... youll see<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's because the Ta152 isn't up there now.

Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------
http://img25.photobucket.com/albums/v76/Jamnut/clark19.jpg

robban75
03-01-2004, 01:25 AM
There's a speedchart in Dietmar Hermann's book about the Longnosed Fw 190. It's dated 03/01/45, showing the Ta 152H's topspeed at low altitude to be 598km/h, at 5500m it's 700km/h, at 9200m it's 748km/h and at 12500m it is 760km/h.

http://members.chello.se/unni/D-9.JPG

When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!

LEXX_Luthor
03-01-2004, 01:34 AM
I am stoked about this, small numbers or not. If they "fixed" the Pancake horizon problem, this will be a delightful ride at high altitude.

__________________
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Fillmore
03-01-2004, 03:18 AM
If the new Il-2 compare is any indication (and it has always been exactly correct for top speeds of every 190 at every altitude I ever tested-and I tested al whole lot), then Ta152H will be slightly over 490kph at 100% throttle and slightly over 560kph at full power at sea level. 750kph at 9000m.

robban75
03-01-2004, 03:25 AM
Perhaps Il-2 compare needs an update? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

http://members.chello.se/unni/D-9.JPG

When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!

karost
03-01-2004, 06:42 AM
Thanks for your information.,chris455

The Focke-Wulf Ta 152 is very new knowledge for me , wow 1x30mm and 2x20mm.... big fire power

so I think I have to prepare my new training program for Ta 152 ...... LOL


by the way , when I see wing of Ta 152 re-call me think about U-2 from USA http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

S!

karost
03-01-2004, 07:04 AM
Oh.. I have one thing to ask
How fast for drive max speed for Ta-152 ?

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif .... Yes for BnZ for sure LOL

Zen--
03-01-2004, 07:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by karost:
Thanks for your information.,chris455

The Focke-Wulf Ta 152 is very new knowledge for me , wow 1x30mm and 2x20mm.... big fire power

so I think I have to prepare my new training program for Ta 152 ...... LOL


by the way , when I see wing of Ta 152 re-call me think about U-2 from USA http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

S!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm going to approach the TA152 as an energy fighter first and evaluate from there. In the long run that's it's most important attribute of all planes to me anyway, so thats the perspective I will take from the start.

With that supposed phenomenal turn rate, I think it's going to be hard for me to get used to it since it will open so many doors in manuevering, if it's E bleed will really allow sustained turning that is.

If the TA152 really does have such a great turn rate, then it is going to be a very different bird than the Dora which to me is both appealing and rather scary. I wouldn't know what do with a plane that could E fight like the Dora and turn like an La7, that would about scare me out of my wits.

I'd say at least according to IL2 Compare, the stats look as though the Dora is the better E fighter and the TA152 is the better stall fighter down low...someone else mentioned that it appears the TA152 is apparently the opposite of the Dora in that regard and I would certainly say it looks that way too.

The TA seems to have a range of interesting possibilities but my money is on using tried and true solid E fighting tactics in it with the turn rate as the icing on the cake so to speak. Approaching the plane as an uber climber and uber turner is probably going to get many luft fliers shot down through lack of attention to detail, just like if one makes that assumption in the La7. The TA152 is not going to fly itself.

Though with those wings I bet it could probably glide forever http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

-Zen-

Bremspropeller
03-01-2004, 07:17 AM
LoL..I'm gonna use the Ta as motorglider...http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


Might be funny circling termals with that a/c http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

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"Once upon the time..there was an aircraft that ruled the skies of Europe..."
http://www.virtual-jabog32.de
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robban75
03-01-2004, 07:22 AM
Expect really short take off runs! 265m! Compare that to 460m for the D-9! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://members.chello.se/unni/D-9.JPG

When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!

p1ngu666
03-01-2004, 07:31 AM
i imagine many lufty fliers to have nervous breakdowns, u know a german plane that can turn
it JUST cant be true &lt;brain&gt;snap, see ya later maybe, im off to cuba http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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robban75
03-01-2004, 07:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by karost:
Oh.. I have one thing to ask
How fast for drive max speed for Ta-152 ?

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif .... Yes for BnZ for sure LOL<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not sure for the Ta 152H in FB, it remains to be seen.
The real Ta 152 could max 765km/h above 12000m. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://members.chello.se/unni/D-9.JPG

When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!

Jaws2002
03-01-2004, 07:46 AM
...Waiting in the corner for the 152-C. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Bremspropeller
03-01-2004, 07:51 AM
Joinig Jaws, and furthermore waiting for the entrie "late Dora" family http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://www.brooksart.com/Ontheprowl.jpg
"Once upon the time..there was an aircraft that ruled the skies of Europe..."
http://www.virtual-jabog32.de
http://www.jg68.de.vu

TgD Thunderbolt56
03-01-2004, 08:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by BuzzU:
The 332 mph at SL is the one that counts for FB. Nobody is going to go to 41,000 ft to fight the Ta152. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


loads will & already do<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



Usually, right after getting on the server, I'll climb to the stratosphere just to see whose lurking. Some of the best battles I've had have been over 5000m with Fillmore, Sable, TOAD, WUAF_CO_HERO, The CZ squads...amongst others.

This may be incorrect, but I'm of the opinion that the better pilots are the ones making contrails.

Rest assured, I'll be up there...even if I have to fly a P-51 to do it!



http://home.earthlink.net/~aclzkim1/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/il2sig2.jpg

Zen--
03-01-2004, 08:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bremspropeller:
Joinig Jaws, and furthermore waiting for the entrie "late Dora" family http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Come on in fellas, I've got your seats ready in this corner over here next to mine, nice to have some company for a change http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

-Zen-

Art-J
03-01-2004, 08:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kamikaze_Gibbon:

I may be an ignorant baboon, but what is a hydraulic turbocharger? - I laways thought that turbochargers used the waste energy in the exhaust gas to spin a turbine (connected to a compressor) to compress the air being fed into the cylinders.

A turbo is often oil cooled but...

I am confused http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, your understanding of turbocharger definition seems to be fine for me. I guess Chriss might used this name by mistake. TURBOchargers are driven by exhaust gases, while SUPERchargers are driven by shaft from the engine. I might be wrong, but I think the P-63 used the latter system. And was it a typical gear driven or the one driven by hydraulic clutch just like in Bf-109s? I don't know that - you better check on net, or ask someone who knows Kingcobras better than me http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Salute!

http://server5.uploadit.org/files/Haribo-Zeke_small_3_txt.jpg

chris455
03-01-2004, 09:38 AM
No mistake on my part, Art-J.

Squadron Signal publications ("P-39 Airacobra in action") describes the turbocharger on the Bell P-63 King Cobra as a hydraulic design.

IIRC, the P-39 had a gear-driven supercharger, the P-63 suplemented this with a hydraulic turbocharger as well, again according to that publication.

I have to confess I had never heard of a hydraulic Turbo either, believing that all turbos were exhaust driven.

If anyone can shed additional light on this, feel free-
S!

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

karost
03-01-2004, 10:34 AM
Hi , Zen-- I have some fun for you

let join my case study for Ta 152 for tactical training ( just for fun ok .. only idea no action. )


1 vs 1 ( let say pilot have same smart level )
=============
Ta 152 vs LA7 ( 3x20mm )
Ta 152 vs Yak3
Ta 152 vs P-51
Ta 152 vs P-39
Ta 152 vs P-47

state 1. H2H with same speed and same level at 5k
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
: this state only Ta 152 vs P-47 have more cool because gun fire same hot other pair Ta 152 have more advance in gun fire power http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
: or what do you thing ?

state 2. after pass state 1
-------------------------------------
: LA7 , Yak3 , P-51 and P-39 should apply angle tactic turn back fast to eat Ta 152

: after pass Ta 152 and P-47 may apply same energy tactic still keep fly at same direction and climb and flat turn , and keep fly out side gun range for a guy ,for this point I not sure climb power from Ta 152 can bleed a guy energy or not ... this is the key ?

: and P-51 and P-39 may be hope deflection shot to Ta 152 at long range that possible to damage Ta 152 control

state 3 at top of energy power
---------------------------------------------
: if Ta 152 keep climb up up up up to 7-8 k with long wing advantage will have more advatage for sustain turn ( not hight turn )
1) for me if I over a guy 500-700 meter I will pull up and apply stall revers and head on shot ( that not smart but I like to try )
2) for you what you will do ... ?


state 4 drive for extend and re-enter
-----------------------------------------------------
: from state 3 if I false and let LA-7 , P-51 climb at same level to me then ..... emergency escap is my choice http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
: I can drive drive drive and let LA-7 behine but P-51 will eat me at the end...
: so what do you thing ?



any friend please join idea if you like .. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

S!

BuzzU
03-01-2004, 10:47 AM
I think some of you missed what I was trying to say about nobody fighting up high. I know there is fighting up there now, but the LW doesn't have the Ta152 right now. Lets say the Ta152 is everything you hope for at high altitude, and nothing can touch it on the allied side. Who in their right mind is going to go up there to meet the Ta152 where is has such a big advantage? It's as foolish as taking FW190 down low and turn fighting a Yak3.

Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------
http://img25.photobucket.com/albums/v76/Jamnut/clark19.jpg

Fillmore
03-01-2004, 11:21 AM
It also depends upon engine temperature management, because it looks like at 100% throttle the performance is really quite bad, and the P51C is faster right up to 7000m or more (though it seems Ta152 turns better). It should be an interesting combination of turnfighting and E fighting depending on your altitude, your opponent's plane, and your engine temperature.

karost
03-01-2004, 11:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Originally posted by BuzzU:

I think some of you missed what I was trying to say about nobody fighting up high. I know there is fighting up there now, but the LW doesn't have the Ta152 right now. Lets say the Ta152 is everything you hope for at high altitude, and nothing can touch it on the allied side. Who in their right mind is going to go up there to meet the Ta152 where is has such a big advantage? It's as foolish as taking FW190 down low and turn fighting a Yak3.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Well .... you have a good point,Buzz http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

so if Ta152 or 190 play hi-speed BnZ over your air base or over you head ... then what you gona do ?


but please, don't tell host kick em out of server ok http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


S!

Art-J
03-01-2004, 11:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chris455:
No mistake on my part, Art-J.

Squadron Signal publications ("P-39 Airacobra in action") describes the turbocharger on the Bell P-63 King Cobra as a hydraulic design.

IIRC, the P-39 had a gear-driven supercharger, the P-63 suplemented this with a hydraulic turbocharger as well, again according to that publication.

I have to confess I had never heard of a hydraulic Turbo either, believing that all turbos were exhaust driven.

If anyone can shed additional light on this, feel free-
S!

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

All right... I hope I didn't upset you too much http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I myself also have some books from "In Action" series and can't argue about information contained in them, they're short, but good.
Then we both have a puzzle here. I'm just beginning to get very interested in this hydraulic turbo, since I've always loved to read about fancy and curious powerplant-system designs... If I find some info, I'll let you know

Regards!

http://server5.uploadit.org/files/Haribo-Zeke_small_3_txt.jpg

Zen--
03-01-2004, 11:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by karost:
Hi , Zen-- I have some fun for you

let join my case study for Ta 152 for tactical training ( just for fun ok .. only idea no action. )



1 vs 1 ( let say pilot have same smart level )
=============
Ta 152 vs LA7 ( 3x20mm )
Ta 152 vs Yak3
Ta 152 vs P-51
Ta 152 vs P-39
Ta 152 vs P-47

state 1. H2H with same speed and same level at 5k
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
: this state only Ta 152 vs P-47 have more cool because gun fire same hot other pair Ta 152 have more advance in gun fire power http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
: or what do you thing ?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


If this is refering to a headon pass, both planes should take the opportunity, even though the P47 has less firepower than the TA, it has SUFFICIENT firepower to have a favorable chance in a head on. Head on shooting is not easy so an assessment of your own comfort with it is in order, if you feel good about it, then take the shot, if not do an angle off to avoid the head on shot, but be sure to pass close enough not to give away anything significant.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
state 2. after pass state 1
-------------------------------------
: LA7 , Yak3 , P-51 and P-39 should apply angle tactic turn back fast to eat Ta 152
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is the number one mistake made in Energy fighting imho...turning too fast to get on the energy fighter's 6. He wants you to be there in the first place, so why reduce your energy by converting to his 6...save the energy and keep climbing. For the La7 with generous E modelling, it's not a bad idea (... not the smartest, though it is the easiest choice), but for the P51 it is not smart at all. (assuming co E states at the merge)A mustang would be better suited to continue climbing after the merge and hopefully bait the TA152 into playing an angles game as though it were an La7 or Yak.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
: after pass Ta 152 and P-47 may apply same energy tactic still keep fly at same direction and climb and flat turn , and keep fly out side gun range for a guy ,for this point I not sure climb power from Ta 152 can bleed a guy energy or not ... this is the key ?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The TA152 should be able to outclimb and out turn the P47 at this altitude...definately the TA152 can bleed the P47's energy by using more angles and forcing the P47 into a climbing engagement, which the TA152 is better suited for.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
: and P-51 and P-39 may be hope deflection shot to Ta 152 at long range that possible to damage Ta 152 control
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I try not to count on lucky shots...to much randomness involved and one has a tendency to break out of the rythm of the engagement, which can cause you to lose angles and/or E state trying to squeeze one in. Better to think out a game plan prior to the merge so that you end up in a better E state, rather than trailing at the edge of guns range.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
state 3 at top of energy power
---------------------------------------------
: if Ta 152 keep climb up up up up to 7-8 k with long wing advantage will have more advatage for sustain turn ( not hight turn )
1) for me if I over a guy 500-700 meter I will pull up and apply stall revers and head on shot ( that not smart but I like to try )
2) for you what you will do ... ?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Stall reverse/hammerhead is very effective, but you MUST be very sure of your E state advantage over the bandit. If you are sure, what you are describing is perfectly valid and I often do the same actually. If the distance is greater, like 1000m, I may do a combat flap diving turn into him, avoid the head on and then keep climbing after the pullup to increase the E advantage. But with 500-700m more altitude and equal speeds, as an E fighter you've just broken the guy's E and have gained advantage...sometimes thats all the E you need, 500 meters worth. More is better though, but E fighting is about that fine line.

If the stats on the TA152 are correct, anything that makes it to 7k+ will probably not last long against it. Fighting at high altitude is different than low altitude because of the constant risk of stalling with even minimal stick movement and tremendously poor control responses...in this environment the TA152 should feel more like it's down low, while you feel like you are stuck in the mud. Not a great matchup especially considering the TA152's climbrate maintains itself extremely well up high.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
state 4 drive for extend and re-enter
-----------------------------------------------------
: from state 3 if I false and let LA-7 , P-51 climb at same level to me then ..... emergency escap is my choice http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
: I can drive drive drive and let LA-7 behine but P-51 will eat me at the end...
: so what do you thing ?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sometimes that is our only option yes, but the TA152 and FW series have the advantage in dive rate, so you are pretty much free to disengage at will against the La7 and Yak, not so easy against western fighters though...but most of them do not fight in the vertical very well either so a long dive with a sharp pullup can set you up for a vertical turn fight, which the D9 excels at and the TA152 ought to as well.



Interesting points btw, I'd say that in a general sense, angles fight the P47 to force him into climbing, E fight the Yak, P39 and La7 and either turn or E fight the mustang.

The unspoken part of high altitude fighting is that you must get higher than the other guy...if your opponent dives, you have won the high altitude battle because you control the energy at that point, that is why you want to force lower climbing planes into climbing. They are at a disadvantage if they do and if they dive, you have partially won already. I'm thinking here of steep diving to bring a change of venue for the diving fighter, shallow dives are not the same thing because the diving fighter is not really leaving the arena.

I lean toward E fighting as a constant myself, even against mustangs or planes that I know I can out turn. It's not always important to me to destroy the other plane, forcing him to be defensive has achieved my immediate goal of dominating his airspace and puts the cards in my favor, which then puts time on my side as well.

Having an maintaining a higher E state is controlling the battle..but at some point you must convert this advantage into a kill or you are just being passive, as Kweassa mentioned in his comments on BnZ.



I hope I answered your questions Karost, but if not by all means I'll do my best to answer them properly.

&lt;S!&gt;

-Zen-

karost
03-01-2004, 11:59 AM
robban75 , thanks

if Ta 152 drive speed is less then 750 km/h that would be a biggggg problem, coz La7 will eat em all

when I stay on 109 at 6k and if I so stupid to let La7 stay close to me at the same level on my 6 , so my last hope is use my 6k energy and drive drive drive to extend ... that is a good thing I can do http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

S!

JG26Red
03-01-2004, 12:06 PM
lol, this is all silly and speculation... we will have to wait a few days to see what this plane has.. until its just opinnions on what it should or cant or will do... i history it proved to be a very good low level fighter, because thats all it did in ts limited time... now will it be good down low in FB? we will have to wait and see..

karost
03-01-2004, 01:40 PM
Wow .... -Zen-, I can see alot of good knowledge that you share to me ( us )

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Having an maintaining a higher E state is controlling the battle..but at some point you must convert this advantage into a kill or you are just being passive, as Kweassa mentioned in his comments on BnZ.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes........ build and maintaining advantage then convert it into a kill

....I know how to build and maintaing advantage...
....but to covert advantage into a kill .... I still need more time to research develop my skill and tactic coz that not easy in dynamic situation.....


by the way , I see now people here talke alot for BnZ event ... but less people talke about "How to develp tactic for ANTI-BnZ " and this case not good to talk in Ta 152 post here , then I hope some friend will open this topic and hope you and many friend here join and share idea each other like this.

Thank you so much for replay my case http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif , -Zen-

&lt;S!&gt;
Karost.

Zen--
03-01-2004, 03:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by karost:
Wow .... -Zen-, I can see alot of good knowledge that you share to me ( us )

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Having an maintaining a higher E state is controlling the battle..but at some point you must convert this advantage into a kill or you are just being passive, as Kweassa mentioned in his comments on BnZ.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes........ build and maintaining advantage then convert it into a kill

....I know how to build and maintaing advantage...
....but to covert advantage into a kill .... I still need more time to research develop my skill and tactic coz that not easy in dynamic situation.....


by the way , I see now people here talke alot for BnZ event ... but less people talke about "How to develp tactic for ANTI-BnZ " and this case not good to talk in Ta 152 post here , then I hope some friend will open this topic and hope you and many friend here join and share idea each other like this.

Thank you so much for replay my case http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif , -Zen-

&lt;S!&gt;
Karost.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, it's usually never easy to score a kill against a determined opponent. In fact I'd say the easy part is the energy fight itself but once you have established the advantage the ball is in the other guy's court. You are now in his former shoes and must press to make the kill, all the while knowing that he doens't want to be shot down either just like you didn't.

Regardless of what some might think, I'm not that great of a pilot, never was either. I have to work for everything, planes don't just fall out of the sky when I'm around, so I understand your comment on things not being easy in a dynamic environment. It's not.

S~~

-Zen-

chris455
03-01-2004, 05:02 PM
[QUOTE]
"All right... I hope I didn't upset you too much I myself also have some books from "In Action" series and can't argue about information contained in them, they're short, but good.
Then we both have a puzzle here. I'm just beginning to get very interested in this hydraulic turbo, since I've always loved to read about fancy and curious powerplant-system designs... If I find some info, I'll let you know

Regards!"

Art-J, no problem M8, I had never heard of a hydraulic Turbo either. An engineer friend told me today they do exist, and use a principle similar to a fluid clutch or torque converter, and are VERY efficient. (liquid cannot be compressed, gasses can. Lag is therefore much reduced). How all this affected the P-63 I cannot say, but I am now reaonably sure it wasn't a typo, it was indeed a "hydraulic supercharger".
regards,
Chris

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

p1ngu666
03-01-2004, 05:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Regardless of what some might think, I'm not that great of a pilot, never was either. I have to work for everything, planes don't just fall out of the sky when I'm around, so I understand your comment on things not being easy in a dynamic environment. It's not.

S~~

-Zen-
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

im sure my plane will http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
i just get in and fly the plane.... u seem far more indepth http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg

SkyChimp
03-01-2004, 08:06 PM
I can't wait to fly my Ta-152 to 10,000 meters, cut my engine, then glide from the Normandy map right to the Pacific map.

Regards,
SkyChimp
http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/skychimp.jpg

Zen--
03-01-2004, 08:09 PM
We could start a whole new league:

TA152 sail plane racing http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

-Zen-

LuftLuver
03-01-2004, 08:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SkyChimp:
I can't wait to fly my Ta-152 to 10,000 meters, cut my engine, then glide from the Normandy map right to the Pacific map. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And would you please take some ReCon photos along the way to see where the 190's forward view is? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

BuzzU
03-01-2004, 08:56 PM
Ok. No more fighting. We just see who can glide the farthest. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------
http://img25.photobucket.com/albums/v76/Jamnut/clark19.jpg

chris455
03-01-2004, 09:01 PM
Skychimp, can you shed any light on this P-63 Hydraulic Turbocharger issue?
S!

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

SkyChimp
03-01-2004, 09:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chris455:
Skychimp, can you shed any light on this P-63 Hydraulic Turbocharger issue?
S!

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The V-1710 in the P-63 had the normal engine stage, single speed mechanical supercharger.

In addition, it had an auxillery supercharger (not turbocharger). The auxillery supercharger was hydraulically driven and was variable speed (as opposed to 2 speed like on the P-51). The speed increased or decreased, depending on altitude, smoothly without any shift in gears.

Here is a pic of the V-1710 of the P-63. The thing tacked on at the rear (on the right) is the auxillery supercharger:

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/allison.jpg

Regards,
SkyChimp
http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/skychimp.jpg

chris455
03-01-2004, 10:08 PM
That settles it then. Hydraulic SUPERCHARGER.
The "In Action" series had their hardware "cornfused". http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif
Thanks Chimpster!

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg