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kyrule2
02-19-2004, 02:01 PM
Here is the second article. I was about a quarter of the way through typing this when the power went out here, so I pretty much used every word in the book. Here it goes again, please excuse typos.

By Captain Robert DeHaven (14 victories) of the 49thFG. Became Ace on P-40, later achieved kills in P-38.

"Inasmuch as our comabt to date has been confined to the P-40 fighter, our views regarding combat tactics with the enemy will deal soley with that aircraft. However, it must be remembered that in conjunction with the successful execution of these tactics, we had on many occasions the cooperation of P-38's and P-47's as high cover, running "interference", etc.

1. Defensive
It has been firmly established that in the P-40 the best defensive maneuver is the split "s" if the attack is in progress, that is, if we have been jumped. The ability to roll a P-40 on its back and gain speed quickly straight down is usually sufficient to evade the fire of the enemy. We have found this maneuver to be effective as low as 5,000 feet. However, in a dive we adhere to the iron-clad rule of NEVER PULLING OUT IN THE SAME DIRECTION THAT WE GO IN. Even a half-roll is enough to disrupt the enemy fire and confuse him as to the direction of pull-out. In the case of the Type 3 fighter (Tony) that statement must be qualified to the extent that one must have altitude to dive away. The Tony will dive with a P-40 up to speeds of 400mph, but it apparently is allergic to sudden high-speed pull-outs, and we have "shaken" it in that manner. We have also found that with the Tony if there is the slightest opportunity for circular combat it is preferable to diving out. We realize this subject is controversial, but we have destroyed several Tony's in true circular combat and feel the P-40 will definitely out-turn it.

We have also on occasion used the pushover when jumped by the Oscar or Zeke because their carburation system will not feed their radial engines on a sudden pushover. However, a steep dive is difficult to obtain in this fashion, and the danger of "redding out" makes it more detrimental than beneficial. On top of that, while the P-40 is gaining speed slowly, the enemy may half-roll and be in position to shoot.

In the event the enemy is seen starting the attack, it has been our policy to wait until he commits himself definitely to the direction of the attack and then turn into him. The Japanese pilot is generally not eager for a head-on pass, and a sudden turn into him will usually delay his attack long enough to get out of gun range and gain altitude using a high speed climb. It has been our experience in combat and against captured enemy aircraft that with a slight distance advantage, a shallow, high speed climb will pull us away from the Oscar, Tony, or Zeke.

In case the enemy is above us and has not yet committed himself to attack, our practice is to get out from under, gain speed, gain altitude, keeping him in sight, and then return to make our own passes. Peculiarly, we have found that the enemy is not likely to follow us either singularly or in groups while we are in the process of pulling away and gaining altitude.

The last of the defensive maneuvers concerns being caught on the deck and, needless to say, thats a tough spot to be in. If alone and the enemy is diving for the attack, his speed is too great for us to try pulling away; therefore, the only alternative is to put your foot on the throttle, turn into him, and/or skid the airplane vioulently. If he is behind and in gun range, pushing and pulling the stick to get a roller-coaster effect has often worked safely, but other that that, a "firewalled" throttle quadrant and violent skid is the only choice we have. About that time, a prayer comes in handy too.

2.Offensive
Inasmuch as no 2 combats are identical, it is difficult to make any set rules governing the attack. The only definite advantages we always try to gain are altitude, speed, and position.

In the case of fighterd, we naturally like to originate our attacks from above and behind or in the sun. Due to the "flying circus" formation the enemy usually flies, the element of surprise is eliminated; however being above gives us the opportunity to gain superior speed, make a pass to break up their group, and then pull back up to altitude. Originally the conception of P-40's vs. Zeroes was to make 1 pass and go home, which is safe but not necessary. We find with an initial altitude 2,000 feet greater than the enemy's, at least 4 passes can be made before we are forced to leave the fight and regain altitude. Sometimes even this is not necessary because the Japanese prefer to fight down low where their maneuverability is greatest; therefore as we continue to make diving passes, the fight will get progresively lower. In regard to that, our practice is to never get below 5,000 feet on a pass unless we outnumber them and are positive there is nothing above or we have a higher cover. In that case, we keep superior speed and fight right to the deck.

Another theory of individual combat that has been somewhat exploded is to never turn with a Zero. It has already been mentioned that circular combat with the Tony is possible, and to a point, the same is true of an Oscar, Zeke, or Hamp. It is a rare occasion when the individual gets a dead-astern shot; therefore following a Zero's turn for as much as 270 degrees has and does get results. Of course, it is preferable to have a high speed turn because the greater the speed the greater the diameter of a Zero's circle. We have found that in the initial turn the Zero will "mush" to a great extent and present a good opportunity for a high deflection shot. Also, he has an unusual habit of reversing his turn or rolling; in either case presenting "cold turky/" The enemy has also split "s" when attacked by a P-40, and that is welcomed if we're along-providing we have the necessary speed and altitude and there are no enemy above. True, he can split "s" and lose far less altitude than the P-40, however, the Warhawk can roll and get started down just as quickly as a Zero and be shooting all the way. In attacking groups of 2,3, or 4 enemy by oneself, its safe to say that they will attempt to "box in" the individual. One favorite maneuver by 3 Zeros is the Prince of Wales, in which the leader does a loop and the wingmen make opposite chandelles. To follow any one is to invite the other 2 for "Bingo"; therefore we usually take a snap-shot at #1, keep going, regain altitude, and try again. In the case of 2 or 4, they will usually be spread out and stacked up. If the opportunity is such that we can hit the top man, we do so; but attempting to attack low men even with superior speed is not conducive to a safe trip home. Of late we have found pilots who will take a head-on pass and, with our greater firepower, its usually disasterous for them. They do, however, have the trick of coming in head-on, rolling, and firing on their backs; then as they pass under executing a split "s" and looping under us. This is easily counteracted by making a tight chandelle as soon as they roll and pass underneath.

In 1 vs. 1 fights a Japanese pilot who knows his aircraft can, and did, make a fool of one P-40 by continuous tight turns into the attack. In such circumstances it is best to bring in another P-40 or let the enemy go before he has a chance to reverse the advantage. In regard to individual tactics on bombers, a frontal pass is the rule, preferably low front quarter. After firing all the way in, pass over and under as close to the bomber as possible to disrupt the fire of turrets, and then break down and out, skidding violently."



Hope you enjoyed, only the P-38 to go.

http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

3./JG51_Hunde
http://www.jg51.com/

kyrule2
02-19-2004, 02:01 PM
Here is the second article. I was about a quarter of the way through typing this when the power went out here, so I pretty much used every word in the book. Here it goes again, please excuse typos.

By Captain Robert DeHaven (14 victories) of the 49thFG. Became Ace on P-40, later achieved kills in P-38.

"Inasmuch as our comabt to date has been confined to the P-40 fighter, our views regarding combat tactics with the enemy will deal soley with that aircraft. However, it must be remembered that in conjunction with the successful execution of these tactics, we had on many occasions the cooperation of P-38's and P-47's as high cover, running "interference", etc.

1. Defensive
It has been firmly established that in the P-40 the best defensive maneuver is the split "s" if the attack is in progress, that is, if we have been jumped. The ability to roll a P-40 on its back and gain speed quickly straight down is usually sufficient to evade the fire of the enemy. We have found this maneuver to be effective as low as 5,000 feet. However, in a dive we adhere to the iron-clad rule of NEVER PULLING OUT IN THE SAME DIRECTION THAT WE GO IN. Even a half-roll is enough to disrupt the enemy fire and confuse him as to the direction of pull-out. In the case of the Type 3 fighter (Tony) that statement must be qualified to the extent that one must have altitude to dive away. The Tony will dive with a P-40 up to speeds of 400mph, but it apparently is allergic to sudden high-speed pull-outs, and we have "shaken" it in that manner. We have also found that with the Tony if there is the slightest opportunity for circular combat it is preferable to diving out. We realize this subject is controversial, but we have destroyed several Tony's in true circular combat and feel the P-40 will definitely out-turn it.

We have also on occasion used the pushover when jumped by the Oscar or Zeke because their carburation system will not feed their radial engines on a sudden pushover. However, a steep dive is difficult to obtain in this fashion, and the danger of "redding out" makes it more detrimental than beneficial. On top of that, while the P-40 is gaining speed slowly, the enemy may half-roll and be in position to shoot.

In the event the enemy is seen starting the attack, it has been our policy to wait until he commits himself definitely to the direction of the attack and then turn into him. The Japanese pilot is generally not eager for a head-on pass, and a sudden turn into him will usually delay his attack long enough to get out of gun range and gain altitude using a high speed climb. It has been our experience in combat and against captured enemy aircraft that with a slight distance advantage, a shallow, high speed climb will pull us away from the Oscar, Tony, or Zeke.

In case the enemy is above us and has not yet committed himself to attack, our practice is to get out from under, gain speed, gain altitude, keeping him in sight, and then return to make our own passes. Peculiarly, we have found that the enemy is not likely to follow us either singularly or in groups while we are in the process of pulling away and gaining altitude.

The last of the defensive maneuvers concerns being caught on the deck and, needless to say, thats a tough spot to be in. If alone and the enemy is diving for the attack, his speed is too great for us to try pulling away; therefore, the only alternative is to put your foot on the throttle, turn into him, and/or skid the airplane vioulently. If he is behind and in gun range, pushing and pulling the stick to get a roller-coaster effect has often worked safely, but other that that, a "firewalled" throttle quadrant and violent skid is the only choice we have. About that time, a prayer comes in handy too.

2.Offensive
Inasmuch as no 2 combats are identical, it is difficult to make any set rules governing the attack. The only definite advantages we always try to gain are altitude, speed, and position.

In the case of fighterd, we naturally like to originate our attacks from above and behind or in the sun. Due to the "flying circus" formation the enemy usually flies, the element of surprise is eliminated; however being above gives us the opportunity to gain superior speed, make a pass to break up their group, and then pull back up to altitude. Originally the conception of P-40's vs. Zeroes was to make 1 pass and go home, which is safe but not necessary. We find with an initial altitude 2,000 feet greater than the enemy's, at least 4 passes can be made before we are forced to leave the fight and regain altitude. Sometimes even this is not necessary because the Japanese prefer to fight down low where their maneuverability is greatest; therefore as we continue to make diving passes, the fight will get progresively lower. In regard to that, our practice is to never get below 5,000 feet on a pass unless we outnumber them and are positive there is nothing above or we have a higher cover. In that case, we keep superior speed and fight right to the deck.

Another theory of individual combat that has been somewhat exploded is to never turn with a Zero. It has already been mentioned that circular combat with the Tony is possible, and to a point, the same is true of an Oscar, Zeke, or Hamp. It is a rare occasion when the individual gets a dead-astern shot; therefore following a Zero's turn for as much as 270 degrees has and does get results. Of course, it is preferable to have a high speed turn because the greater the speed the greater the diameter of a Zero's circle. We have found that in the initial turn the Zero will "mush" to a great extent and present a good opportunity for a high deflection shot. Also, he has an unusual habit of reversing his turn or rolling; in either case presenting "cold turky/" The enemy has also split "s" when attacked by a P-40, and that is welcomed if we're along-providing we have the necessary speed and altitude and there are no enemy above. True, he can split "s" and lose far less altitude than the P-40, however, the Warhawk can roll and get started down just as quickly as a Zero and be shooting all the way. In attacking groups of 2,3, or 4 enemy by oneself, its safe to say that they will attempt to "box in" the individual. One favorite maneuver by 3 Zeros is the Prince of Wales, in which the leader does a loop and the wingmen make opposite chandelles. To follow any one is to invite the other 2 for "Bingo"; therefore we usually take a snap-shot at #1, keep going, regain altitude, and try again. In the case of 2 or 4, they will usually be spread out and stacked up. If the opportunity is such that we can hit the top man, we do so; but attempting to attack low men even with superior speed is not conducive to a safe trip home. Of late we have found pilots who will take a head-on pass and, with our greater firepower, its usually disasterous for them. They do, however, have the trick of coming in head-on, rolling, and firing on their backs; then as they pass under executing a split "s" and looping under us. This is easily counteracted by making a tight chandelle as soon as they roll and pass underneath.

In 1 vs. 1 fights a Japanese pilot who knows his aircraft can, and did, make a fool of one P-40 by continuous tight turns into the attack. In such circumstances it is best to bring in another P-40 or let the enemy go before he has a chance to reverse the advantage. In regard to individual tactics on bombers, a frontal pass is the rule, preferably low front quarter. After firing all the way in, pass over and under as close to the bomber as possible to disrupt the fire of turrets, and then break down and out, skidding violently."



Hope you enjoyed, only the P-38 to go.

http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

3./JG51_Hunde
http://www.jg51.com/

RobertNighthawk
02-19-2004, 02:11 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif Thank you very much for taking the time to share that.

robban75
02-19-2004, 02:14 PM
Very interesting read! Thanks a bunch kyrule! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://members.chello.se/unni/D-9.JPG

When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!

BlitzPig_Ritter
02-19-2004, 02:14 PM
Wow, that's alot of typing, thanks for making the effort and going through the trouble.

______________________________
Formerly Known as: Die_Ritterkreuz
http://ritterkreuz.freewebspace.com/images/sig2ubi.jpg (http://www.il2skins.com/?action=list&authoridfilter=Ritterkreuz&ts=1067024271&comefrom=credits)

XyZspineZyX
02-19-2004, 02:15 PM
Interesting in that the author thought the Zeke and Oscar had the same negative-G cutout problems of the early Rolls Royce Engines.

This was in fact not the case.

MysticBlackCat
02-19-2004, 02:22 PM
Nice article Kyrule, I was curious as to what book you found this article out of?

kyrule2
02-19-2004, 02:48 PM
Mystic, they are short articles at the end of the book Pacific Sweep by William Hess. They are taken originally from the book Twelve to One, Fighter Combat Tactics in the SWPA. There is also a great "tactics" section by Thomas MsGuire. Good book, good stuff.

http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

3./JG51_Hunde
http://www.jg51.com/

[This message was edited by kyrule2 on Thu February 19 2004 at 02:35 PM.]

frag_bravo
02-19-2004, 03:22 PM
Yep FB is pretty close to real-life dog fighting.Minus the black outs and the roller coaster stomach knots.Oh yeah and the flying lead!Thanks

kyrule2
02-19-2004, 08:43 PM
I'll bump this once because it took a long time to type http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

3./JG51_Hunde
http://www.jg51.com/

horseback
02-19-2004, 08:54 PM
It's always good to hear how it's done by the real-life pros. If you guys liked this, you should try to beg, borrow, or steal a copy of Osprey aircraft of the Aces #31, VIIIth Fighter Command At War: Long Reach, which is a series of essays written by top fighter leaders and aces of the 8th AF in the Spring/Summer of 1944. It's very illuminating.

Cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

dieadler
02-19-2004, 09:39 PM
Excellent article!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Copperhead310th
02-19-2004, 11:41 PM
Kyrule i really think i'm going to have to pick up a copy of this book. where'd you get it?
Amazon? linkage!

http://imageshack.us/files/copper%20sig%20with%20rank.jpg
310th FS & 380th BG website (http://www.members.tripod.com/tophatssquadron)

kyrule2
02-19-2004, 11:53 PM
The funny thing Copperhead is I found it one day helping clean out my fathers garage. I'm sure it is probably around, or maybe the Twelve to One, Fighter Comabt Tactics in the SWPA. I'll probably look for that. The combat tactics section from Thomas McGuire included in the back (not sure if it is in the 12 to 1 book) is excellent and I think it was written in 1944.

The full title is Pacific Sweep, The 5th and 13th Fighter Commands. By William Hess. Zebra books, Kensington publishing corp. NY. Copyright 1974. Library of Congress catalog #74-4649

#2 in the world at war series.

http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

3./JG51_Hunde
http://www.jg51.com/

RobertNighthawk
02-20-2004, 01:57 AM
Dig http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gifthis:click for aviation book list. (http://www.bazillionbooks.com/aviationhistory.html)

http://robertnighthawk.homestead.com/files/surrenderdorothy.jpg

RobertNighthawk
02-20-2004, 02:03 AM
Like the P47?

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

Dig this for 20 clams. (http://www.txstarbooks.com/si/001382.html)

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

RobertNighthawk
02-20-2004, 02:05 AM
Hess-fest?

All Hess books. (http://www.isbn.nu/author/Hess,%20William%20N./)

tttiger
02-20-2004, 02:14 AM
Gee, Ky, you could have saved yourself all that typing and posted this link and then told us to click on DeHaven's name http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://home.earthlink.net/~jimdoss/index.htm#toc

Several other good tactics articles here as well.

S!

ttt

"I want the one that kills the best with the least amount of risk to me"

-- Chuck Yeager describing "The Best Airplane."

F19_Ob
02-20-2004, 03:33 AM
thnx

I recently began to try this one

kyrule2
02-20-2004, 06:30 AM
DOH!

Damn you tttiger http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. Well, now I know. I'll check later, I'm sure the P-38 one is probably there so at least I won't have to type that one. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

...oh, and thanks for link.

http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

3./JG51_Hunde
http://www.jg51.com/

tttiger
02-20-2004, 11:17 AM
I kept saying...I've read this before somewhere..and then realized I had it bookmarked http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Thanks for all the effort, though, it's good stuff http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ttt

"I want the one that kills the best with the least amount of risk to me"

-- Chuck Yeager describing "The Best Airplane."

kyrule2
02-20-2004, 03:09 PM
Hmmm, it doesn't seem the P-38 article is there. It is written by W. K. Giroux and I didn't find it in a quick search so maybe I found something new. I'll look for it again, if I don't find it I guess I'll type that one in too.

http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

3./JG51_Hunde
http://www.jg51.com/