PDA

View Full Version : Something to think about.



XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 09:33 PM
I was playing on the Crimea campaign today. And attacking one vehicle column. Then I saw that one of the vehicles was an ambulance. (it is designated with a Red cross) I have seen it before and one thing struck me.

According to the Geneva convention it is not allowed to attack ambulances. (or anything else designated with the RedCross) But, in order to complete the mission you have to destroy the Ambulance.

Maybe the ambulance should be removed OR maybe, that in order to complete the task one should not have to destroy the ambulance vehicle. (maybe its simpler to just remove it)

Yes its just a game and I have no problem seeing the difference between reality and a computer game.

The problem in my opinion is that people, (especially the youngsters) May think that in a situation of war, it is correct to attack RedCross designated ambulances.

I am certain that during the second world war all sides without hesitation on multiple occasions attacked ambulances and other "protected" building/vehicles and others.

Maybe they want to model this behavior, but then there perhaps should be a note about it in the objects section.


Furthermore i se no Need to model it, Am I wrong in this?


As a sidenote I could mention that it is also not okay to attack pilots that have bailed out. This particular situation I see no problem with as it is modeled correctly, you dont get credits for killing bailed pilots. I do not
beleive any changes should be made to this part of the game.

Killing bailed pilots was common during ww2.

This is still a great game, and the developers probably didnt think of this when they designed the game. I suspect no maliciousity from them.

Any opinions?

--
"Too late ... No time."
Concorde pilot Christian Marty, moments before the supersonic jet crashed into a hotel in Gonesse on the outskirts of Paris.

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 09:33 PM
I was playing on the Crimea campaign today. And attacking one vehicle column. Then I saw that one of the vehicles was an ambulance. (it is designated with a Red cross) I have seen it before and one thing struck me.

According to the Geneva convention it is not allowed to attack ambulances. (or anything else designated with the RedCross) But, in order to complete the mission you have to destroy the Ambulance.

Maybe the ambulance should be removed OR maybe, that in order to complete the task one should not have to destroy the ambulance vehicle. (maybe its simpler to just remove it)

Yes its just a game and I have no problem seeing the difference between reality and a computer game.

The problem in my opinion is that people, (especially the youngsters) May think that in a situation of war, it is correct to attack RedCross designated ambulances.

I am certain that during the second world war all sides without hesitation on multiple occasions attacked ambulances and other "protected" building/vehicles and others.

Maybe they want to model this behavior, but then there perhaps should be a note about it in the objects section.


Furthermore i se no Need to model it, Am I wrong in this?


As a sidenote I could mention that it is also not okay to attack pilots that have bailed out. This particular situation I see no problem with as it is modeled correctly, you dont get credits for killing bailed pilots. I do not
beleive any changes should be made to this part of the game.

Killing bailed pilots was common during ww2.

This is still a great game, and the developers probably didnt think of this when they designed the game. I suspect no maliciousity from them.

Any opinions?

--
"Too late ... No time."
Concorde pilot Christian Marty, moments before the supersonic jet crashed into a hotel in Gonesse on the outskirts of Paris.

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 10:55 PM
screw the geneva convention. the germans certainly didnt acknowlege it much. i'd blast the ambulance in a heartbeat.
not that i'm a sick individual, but war is war and "accidents" can happen.

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 10:57 PM
It would be good to remove the ambulances or at least make sure they drive seperate from war vehicles and are not mission targets.

I wonder if there is something in the Geneva rules about not mixing Red Cross vehicles in with combat vehicles? It is like human shields on offensive weapons otherwise; wrong, wrong, wrong.


Neal

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 11:04 PM
Punkfriday wrote:
- screw the geneva convention. the germans certainly
- didnt acknowlege it much. i'd blast the ambulance in
- a heartbeat.
- not that i'm a sick individual, but war is war and
- "accidents" can happen.

lol not only germans. in every nation were some ppl who didn't follow the convention. Can't generalize that.

BTW: Those AAA, tanks, ships, artillery etc are shooting at chutes - also was forbidden.


<hr>

<p align=center style="width:100%;filter:glow[color=#33CCFF,strength=2)">

<img src=http://mitglied.lycos.de/eldur190d9/bilder/willey110.jpg border=0 alt="Hier geht's zur I/JG78"> (http://www.jg78.de)

&lt;script>var specwin=window;function openspecs(){specwin=window.open("http://mitglied.lycos.de/eldur190d9/specs.htm", "specs", "hotkeys=0,width=640,height=480,left=64,top=64,scro llbars=yes");}</script>Die olle Rechenkiste vom noch olleren Willey (java_script: openspecs[))

<font face="Comic Sans MS" size="2">Seit &lt;script>var eventdate=new Date("March 20, 2003 00:00:00 GMT");d=new Date();count=Math.floor((eventdate.getTime()-d.getTime())/1000);count=Math.floor(count/(60*60*-24));document.write(count);</script> Tagen<sup>*</sup> gibts Il-2 Sturmovik: Forgotten Battles. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
BTW: In &lt;script>var eventdate=new Date("June 21, 2003 00:00:00 GMT");d=new Date();count=Math.floor((eventdate.getTime()-d.getTime())/1000);count=Math.floor(count/(60*60*24));document.write(count);</script> Tag(en) gibt's das n√¬§chste Development Update von Oleg Maddox, wenn alles schiefl√¬§uft /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

<font size="1"><sup>*</sup> In Europa . In den USA gabs FB schon 16 Tage vorher am 4.3. Link (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkyee)</font></font></p>&lt;script>c0="#000000";c1="#400000";c2="#000040";c3="#000050";c4="#000060";c5="#000070";a=document.all.tags("table");a[a.length-3].bgColor=c1;a[a.length-4].bgColor=c2;if(a[a.length-5].innerHTML.indexOf("User Options")!=-1){a[a.length-5].bgColor=c3;a[a.length-6].bgColor=c0;a[a.length-7].bgColor=c1;a[a.length-8].bgColor=c4;a[a.length-9].bgColor=c5;}else{a[a.length-5].bgColor=c0;a[a.length-6].bgColor=c1;a[a.length-7].bgColor=c4;a[a.length-8].bgColor=c5;};image="http://mitglied.lycos.de/eldur190d9/bilder/bar1.jpg";oa=a[a.length-2].style;oa.backgroundImage="url("+image+")";oa.backgroundPosition="left center";oa.backgroundRepeat="no-repeat";var a=document.all.tags("img");for(var i=0;i<a.length;i++){if[a[i].src.indexOf["/i/icons")!=-1)var o=a[i]}o.src="http://mitglied.lycos.de/eldur190d9/bilder/transparent36.gif";o.height=36;o.width=36;a=document.all.tags["td");for[i=0;i<a.length;i++)if[a[i].innerHTML.indexOf["Willey")!=-1)ii=i;a[ii+2].innerHTML="Focke-Wulf Testpilot";</script><font color=000040>

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 11:22 PM
I am thinking this may have not been considered, or forgotten.

fromsweden, yes that imagery should not be a part of the Eastern Front war between Stalin and Hitler? Bad!

If it bothers us, we may wish to play soldier pilot with a flight sim of a more recent and more "Humanitarian" war, like NATO/Kosovo or USA/Iraq.

Don't feel bad if you get points for bombing ambulance--Humanitarian and environmentalist Henry Kissenger got the 1976 Nobel Peace Prize. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif



Message Edited on 06/20/0310:42PM by LEXX_Luthor

XyZspineZyX
06-21-2003, 12:09 AM
WWMaxGunz wrote:

- I wonder if there is something in the Geneva rules
- about not mixing Red Cross vehicles in with combat
- vehicles? It is like human shields on offensive
- weapons otherwise; wrong, wrong, wrong.

There is nothing against mixing ambulances with medical vehicles per se, but you're asking for a lot of trouble by placing a non-combatant vehicle in the midst of tanks, halftracks, etc., when there is combat occuring. Even then, any commander who would put an ambulance in that situation in the first place should be relieved of duty.

Just my $.02...as a combat medic in the U.S. Army. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I/JG54^Lukas
He 162A-2 Cockpit Modeler

XyZspineZyX
06-21-2003, 12:13 AM
fromsweden wrote:

Maybe the ambulance should be removed OR maybe, that
- in order to complete the task one should not have to
- destroy the ambulance vehicle. (maybe its simpler to
- just remove it)

Why not give -points shootin ambulances.

U can read about the columns beein blended with sections of civilian trafic. That could be simulated with blendin in "white" wehicles in the columns via FMB selection.

The attacker gettin negative points for destroying those objects.

XyZspineZyX
06-21-2003, 12:29 AM
Punkfriday wrote:
- screw the geneva convention. the germans certainly
- didnt acknowlege it much.

Well, they had the concentration camps, but there were situations when the germans were better in acknowledging the geneva convention than the allied.

german uboat captains were much more civilized compared to their american counterparts.


-i'd blast the ambulance in
- a heartbeat.

Well, should you in a sharp combat situation do that. You might be convicted, atleast if you are on the losing side.

- not that i'm a sick individual, but war is war and
- "accidents" can happen.



--
"Too late ... No time."
Concorde pilot Christian Marty, moments before the supersonic jet crashed into a hotel in Gonesse on the outskirts of Paris.

XyZspineZyX
06-21-2003, 12:36 AM
WWMaxGunz wrote:
- It would be good to remove the ambulances or at
- least make sure they drive seperate from war
- vehicles and are not mission targets.

Yes, as there really are no game technical difference if you shoot a vehicle colored as an ambulance or as a truck.

- I wonder if there is something in the Geneva rules
- about not mixing Red Cross vehicles in with combat
- vehicles? It is like human shields on offensive
- weapons otherwise; wrong, wrong, wrong.

Well, Im no expert on the deeper technincalities, but as I have understood, it is not illegal to mix an ambulance with military vehicles per se.

But their protection would be very weak in that case. If one wants to protect the ambulance its a very dumb thing to do.



--
"Too late ... No time."
Concorde pilot Christian Marty, moments before the supersonic jet crashed into a hotel in Gonesse on the outskirts of Paris.

XyZspineZyX
06-21-2003, 12:51 AM
LEXX_Luthor wrote:
- I am thinking this may have not been considered, or
- forgotten.

Yes most likely so.

- fromsweden, yes that imagery should not be a part of
- the Eastern Front war between Stalin and Hitler?
- Bad!

Do you mean that or are you ironic?

I am not out to censor or remove disturbing imagery because it annoys me, I just want to avoid that people get the wrong knowledge.

- If it bothers us, we may wish to play soldier pilot
- with a flight sim of a more recent and more
- "Humanitarian" war, like NATO/Kosovo or USA/Iraq.

Yes, bombing installations that have only a civil use is not allowed. No military would be affected negatively by the bombing of an ordinary civilian powerplant.

A military dependent on the civilian infrastructure is a military that would not be able to operate in case of war.

- Don't feel bad if you get points for bombing
- ambulance--Humanitarian and environmentalist Henry
- Kissenger got the 1976 Nobel Peace Prize. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Yes, there are a lot of americans that could be convicted for violations against the geneva convention.


--
"Too late ... No time."
Concorde pilot Christian Marty, moments before the supersonic jet crashed into a hotel in Gonesse on the outskirts of Paris.

XyZspineZyX
06-21-2003, 01:06 AM
Don't let it worry you, fromsweden. We have solid intelligence reports that the enemy is putting Red Cross markings on ammo trucks.

Ah, we wish that it were not so, but what can we do?

<center>
http://members.verizon.net/~vze2cb22/KosSig.gif

America: #1 military...#15 in literacy...
Because right wingers run our military
and leftists run our schools!/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </center>

XyZspineZyX
06-21-2003, 01:12 AM
Yes fromsweden, I was being ironic. Thanks for catching that.

Sometimes I squirm that we sim death, especially the Stuka and the image that held for many people. Although I have not been doing ground attack because of grafix load.

Actually, now that I figured a way to turn down the terrain settings while keeping object details/distance on high settings, I may start doing some Stuka or IL~2 stuff.

http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=missionbuilder&id=zztrn

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-21-2003, 03:08 PM
LEXX_Luthor wrote:
- Yes fromsweden, I was being ironic. Thanks for
- catching that.

I thought so. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

- Sometimes I squirm that we sim death, especially the
- Stuka and the image that held for many people.
- Although I have not been doing ground attack because
- of grafix load.
-
- Actually, now that I figured a way to turn down the
- terrain settings while keeping object
- details/distance on high settings, I may start doing
- some Stuka or IL~2 stuff.
http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=missionbuilder&id=zztrn
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Well, I suggest the il2 campaign, but you are going to have hell in the beginning with all the enemies.

--
"Too late ... No time."
Concorde pilot Christian Marty, moments before the supersonic jet crashed into a hotel in Gonesse on the outskirts of Paris.

XyZspineZyX
06-21-2003, 05:00 PM
No thanks. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif I make my own.

I am trying to plan an "all day" mission, but how to do it?

(1) I could fly with unlimited ammo/fuel, but every time I do that, Oleg strangles a kitten, and I do think of the kittens.

(2) I may have to write a FORTRAN program that reads the event file after, say, an hour or two of sim time, and writes the next mis file for the next hour or so.

---"Each day we had to fly five or even seven missions. It
---demanded considerable effort to maintain this pace of
---combat and not go under physically."

http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zebhb

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-21-2003, 05:05 PM
The german ratified the geneva convention and it was respected on the west front and in prisonner camps (of course not in concentration/exterminatnion camps, but inspectors did not know of them or closed their eyes to be able, at least, to have the prisonners respected).

On the east, I think russians did not ratified the geneva convention, so the german had no obligation. And maybe the first month people care about ambulance but after that..nobody care. Most of the time, they don't even bother putting red crosses.

At least, it shows how horrible war is.

Nikko

XyZspineZyX
06-21-2003, 07:10 PM
- On the east, I think russians did not ratified the
- geneva convention, so the german had no obligation.
- And maybe the first month people care about
- ambulance but after that..nobody care. Most of the
- time, they don't even bother putting red crosses.
-
- At least, it shows how horrible war is.


Yup, War is hell.

But there may be a better strategical decision to leave the ambulances alone. A wounded soldier costs the enemy more than a dead. He still have to treat the wounded soldier who may never return to the fight.


--
"Too late ... No time."
Concorde pilot Christian Marty, moments before the supersonic jet crashed into a hotel in Gonesse on the outskirts of Paris.

XyZspineZyX
06-21-2003, 07:22 PM
- But there may be a better strategical decision to
- leave the ambulances alone. A wounded soldier costs
- the enemy more than a dead. He still have to treat
- the wounded soldier who may never return to the
- fight.


err...I think it doesn't work that way..

Nikko

XyZspineZyX
06-21-2003, 08:43 PM
Niberto wrote:
-- But there may be a better strategical decision to
-- leave the ambulances alone. A wounded soldier costs
-- the enemy more than a dead. He still have to treat
-- the wounded soldier who may never return to the
-- fight.
-
-
- err...I think it doesn't work that way..
-
- Nikko

So, how does it work then?

--
"Too late ... No time."
Concorde pilot Christian Marty, moments before the supersonic jet crashed into a hotel in Gonesse on the outskirts of Paris.

XyZspineZyX
06-21-2003, 09:34 PM
Saving wounded soldiers so they can fight, work, or train others, is so important that the "Allies'" use of penicillin helped to shorten World War 2.

Penicillin won the WAR

XyZspineZyX
06-21-2003, 11:45 PM
LEXX_Luthor wrote:
- Saving wounded soldiers so they can fight, work, or
- train others, is so important that the "Allies'" use
- of penicillin helped to shorten World War 2.
-
- Penicillin won the WAR

Well, I wouldnt attribute the allied victory to only penicillin, it was one of many contributing factors.

To me it seems more naturally that ten wounded soldiers would cost the enemy more than if the same ten soldiers were dead.

Thats why they designed personal landmines, to not kill the soldiers but just to wound them in order to put them out of action and so that they would cost the enemy resources.



--
"Too late ... No time."
Concorde pilot Christian Marty, moments before the supersonic jet crashed into a hotel in Gonesse on the outskirts of Paris.

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 03:09 AM
I know little of landmine history, but I would argue (now, may change) the landmines' function is to put soldiers out of action for the short term battle, dead or wounded. In the short term, wounded soldiers "cost" more than dead soldiers. In the long term its not so simple.

Hopefully, your nation at war will survive into the long term, like USSR survived into 1942 when German soldiers invading USSR expected to be home by Christmas 1941. Also, USSR made great *long term* use of wounded soldiers who were...Patched up.

For an interesting discussion of long term vs. short term population stuff, check the *Introduction* chapter here...

---> http://www.africa2000.com/RNDX/simon.html


For the "other side" check this description of Kissenger's 1974 National Security Study Memorandum 200 here...

---> http://www.africa2000.com/INDX/nssm200.htm

Full Kissenger text (releaced to africa2000 thru Freedom of Information Act) is found at the link at the bottom of that introduction.


There is a reason Julian Simon calls People the "ultimate resource," while Henry Kissenger thinks pregnant African women are a US National Security Threat. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Think of this:: What if a flight sim programmer got "wounded" by ulcers from multiple cockpit/gunsight wounds *I mean* threads, and he/she needed an operation to cure the ulcers?

Wounded soldiers are ~alive~ and can do Great Things. All they need is, a Patch.

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 04:44 AM
Having a nice little "sinister U.S. conspiracy" "teach-in" here are'nt you?

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 01:49 PM
LEXX_Luthor wrote:
- I know little of landmine history, but I would argue
- (now, may change) the landmines' function is to put
- soldiers out of action for the short term battle,

Many troop mines are designed to cut of the foot of the soldier, leaving him alive but unable to fight again.

- dead or wounded. In the short term, wounded soldiers
- "cost" more than dead soldiers. In the long term its
- not so simple.

I can agree with you there.

- Hopefully, your nation at war will survive into the
- long term, like USSR survived into 1942 when German
- soldiers invading USSR expected to be home by
- Christmas 1941. Also, USSR made great *long term*
- use of wounded soldiers who were...Patched up.
-
- For an interesting discussion of long term vs. short
- term population stuff, check the *Introduction*
- chapter here...
-
----> http://www.africa2000.com/RNDX/simon.html
-
-
- For the "other side" check this description of
- Kissenger's 1974 National Security Study Memorandum
- 200 here...
-
----> http://www.africa2000.com/INDX/nssm200.htm
-
- Full Kissenger text (releaced to africa2000 thru
- Freedom of Information Act) is found at the link at
- the bottom of that introduction.

These texts looks interresting, thanks.

- There is a reason Julian Simon calls People the
- "ultimate resource," while Henry Kissenger thinks
- pregnant African women are a US National Security
- Threat. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

If you want to read about landmines I recommend a book:
"The history of landmines"
by
Mike Croll



--
"Too late ... No time."
Concorde pilot Christian Marty, moments before the supersonic jet crashed into a hotel in Gonesse on the outskirts of Paris.

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 01:57 PM
An ambulance is a legitimate target if it is traveling as part of a larger combat element so long as you do not single it out. If you drop bombs or fire rockets and you kill it, you kill it.

BTW, wounding soldiers is preferable from a tactical POV because of the resources they tie up: medics, transportation, supplies, etc.

5./JG52_Scout
http://www.montereybay.com/kore/5jg52.htm

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 04:27 PM
ScoutPSG wrote:
- An ambulance is a legitimate target if it is
- traveling as part of a larger combat element so long
- as you do not single it out. If you drop bombs or
- fire rockets and you kill it, you kill it.

Do not fully agree with you there, A RedCross marked ambulance is never a legitimate target. However if the ambulance was in a column of military vehicles no pilot, as you say, would be convicted if the ambulance was destroyed.

This is why a military commander would never mix an ambulance with other military vehicles.

- BTW, wounding soldiers is preferable from a tactical
- POV because of the resources they tie up: medics,
- transportation, supplies, etc.

I fully agree with you there.

--
"Too late ... No time."
Concorde pilot Christian Marty, moments before the supersonic jet crashed into a hotel in Gonesse on the outskirts of Paris.

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 04:46 PM
US Army ambulances (FLA's and tracked) are with combat vehicles regulary. We don't send them out on their own.

5./JG52_Scout
http://www.montereybay.com/kore/5jg52.htm